Hard CCs, Break Free, and Sprint – Why managing these three mechanics are paramount for balance
Bullseyebudx
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PVP combat *Long Read – For Developers & Players*
I’m writing this thread because adjusting the three mechanics mentioned in the subject will have the biggest positive impact on how combat operates specifically for PVP, while conversely having little or no negative impact for PVE.
I tried to find where I originally read the concept I’m going to discuss here, not that its particularly original, but it comes up a lot when Wizards of the Coast talks about why they’ve banned specific magic cards over the years, what justifies banning a card from constructed play, and what types of game mechanics are; “unhealthy”, “unfun”, or “oppressive”.
For those not familiar with Wizards of the Coast they’ve been designing a trading card game called Magic: The Gathering since 1993, which is hailed by many, including myself, as the most successful trading card game franchise ever, with over 20 million players worldwide.
Basically, my takeaway from their understanding of preventing Imbalance boils down to understanding this statement; the only thing less fun than losing a game is never getting to play that game at all. What’s important about this thought is the inevitable conclusion; if I don’t get to play the game, while I’m playing the game, why bother playing the game at all? The statement highlighted in bold struck me specifically for the first time when I was learning to PVP.
Before I continue, I just want to say up front these suggestions aren’t an attack against players who use stuns, stamina characters, or anyone specific class type. This is a fundamental issue; some builds benefit more from this than others at times but that’s not what’s important to focus on right now. I use stuns and I’ve played stamina characters before; I genuinely don’t mind what you’re playing if it’s in line with the rest of the options out there. Honestly if you’re really that good of a player you shouldn’t even need to play with a stun effect, in the current meta you’d be crazy not too but just putting that out there.
My goal here is to highlight how Crowd Control effects (CCs); hide imbalance in combat, which inherently makes trying to balance a game not very effective, prevents people from playing the game, and enables low skill game play. Seriously you could probably justify not having any stuns in the game at all; excluding maybe clause stuns, i.e. you CC the target if these limiting criteria occur because it’s utilized in PVE as an interrupt mechanic, and its usually balanced in PVP scenarios.
Obviously, you probably couldn’t just remove CC’s and not make any other changes but solving the problems are for the developers all I can do here is try to address a problem and show people why it’s an issue and what it’ll ultimately do to the game and community.
Hard Crowd Control – STUN, FEAR, KNOCKBACK, KNOCKDOWN
This has probably happened to everyone at some point. You get CC’d for a few seconds, which means you literally can’t do anything for the duration of the stun if you can’t break free. The enemy can use any attacks doesn’t really matter while you’re lying there on the ground, you just sit and watch your character die. I typically just put my controller down and wait.
Now in my opinion I don’t think that’s fun for either player, but more importantly I think this mechanic will eventually make people ask the question, well why bother playing if I eventually die to being CC locked? I want to earn my kills, getting a kill while my opponent isn’t engaged and fighting back is like beating someone when their controller batteries die, you do a rematch because of course you beat them; they couldn’t play the game.
Some people out there will justify this by saying the CC locked player didn’t manage their resources, which I don’t agree with. What that statement means is the player wasn’t a stamina character and that’s why they died. I could understand how CC’s probably found their way into PVP originally, they’re particularly effective when someone is; block camping on a tank, or outnumbered. I don’t want to go too in depth on this because they’re already in the game, so I hope they were enabled in PVP for a reason to keep something in balance or at least at some point in time this was the case.
I noticed the developers have started to realize CC’s might not be such a great idea, particularly when used by aggressive players. The destructive touch ability no longer grants a stun on the shock staff. Still more concerning are abilities that remain like Shield Charge/the morphs…. Gap Closer at 22m, Deals Damage, Stuns for up to 6 seconds potentially, and - and grants a damage shield. ZOS has already established how impactful and powerful gap closers are, why does a gap closer have a 6 second stun, that also deals damage? Please don’t respond to this and tell me that distance is a clause because that’s not a drawback.
Now let’s clarify something here; Lotus Fan, right? No longer stuns, again, or… doesn’t matter, want to know why it was too good with a stun? *Whispers* Stamina players could use this ability to deal more damage than Shield Charge without it taxing their stamina, because how many times do you need to gap close an opponent that can’t sprint for more than 7 seconds without being able to Break free. Want to know what the real issue with the ability was? It was a CC effect without a drawback on a ranged ability, coupled with damage.
Piercing Javelin, Bolt Escape, hmm… what do these two things have in common? Oh my god those abilities are used on the only two classes outperforming the other classes, why? The other classes don’t have comparable abilities! Range, Damage, and CC WITHOUT CLAUSE ON IMPACT, seriously this has to be a big no no going forward. Please don’t make abilities like this and please at a bare minimum put a clause on and adjust the ones that are out there across the board no exceptions.
But you forgot Leap, no that’s an ultimate ability which is a major limiting factor, the ability is extremely good to be honest, but I don’t think the CC is an issue. The reduced cost, and the damage shield are an issue, I don’t think the ability is 110 ultimate ability, minimum of 150, to prevent it from being spammed. The damage shield… and this is the kind of stuff that rubs me the wrong way. Why should you need a damage shield if you just double CC’d everyone in the immediate area? Oh you mean you sometimes don’t get everyone? That’s okay here’s a 100% damage shield you can have while you wait for the rest of the group to run in and ult dump on a bunch of CC’d people. The ability I think is supposed to be used by tanky builds, but the damage shield enables non-tanky builds to over utilize the effects of the ability offensively without a drawback.
Seriously look at the Bone Totem; Remote Totem doesn’t deal damage, but it also doesn’t give an immediate fear on impact. Agony totem deals damage BUT with a synergy clause, plus its stationary, but the fear isn’t on impact. What did they have to do? They had to buff it and give in continued fear pulses, but CRUCIALLY note that they didn’t give it fear on impact.
But dude it’s not that big of a deal all you have to do is use Break Free.
If its not a big deal, then just give EVERYONE access to a passive that grants full immunity to ALL CC effects that stop you from playing the game; STUN, FEAR, KNOCKDOWN AND KNOCKBACK.
Break Free
If you don’t want to give everyone CC immunity then take away the cost of Break Free, it already increases the minimum duration of all the CC’s with an animation effect, which is a major drawback, why should it even have a cost, sometimes it winds up acting as an increased duration for the CC clear and you PAY FOR IT? Get a grip.
The base stamina bar with CP in U23 is 9549. The base cost of Break Free is 5400. THAT MEANS YOU GET 1 BREAK FREE. What’s the average stamina player bar, maybe around 35K on the lower side? At 35K stamina you get 6 break frees, 6 times more than someone not spec’d into stamina, and not to mention you gain access to a whole entire other resource bar that you don’t have to use if you don’t want to, but seriously if you can why not slot 1 or 2 magicka abilities that do the same thing your stam abilities do, because then what happens? Break free essentially becomes free! Why because you don’t have to use all stamina abilities, because there’s no consistent drain on magicka which means you can over utilize regeneration stats. Imagine what this is like after factoring in regen and cost reductions from CP and items sets.
If you’re a magicka player, the compounded obverse; you essentially lose access to a secondary resource to use alternative abilities, which means, and this is very important, BOTH your magicka and stamina bars are being overtaxed compared to stamina, plus you can’t really utilize stamina abilities without the major drawback of being CC’d, this is before we even consider; sprinting, and blocking WHICH YOU DON’T REGENERATE STAMINA WHILE USING, which is correct for obvious reasons but it means what little stamina regen you do get is literally worthless. Forget about dodge rolling, or even accidentally bashing which will now cost stamina even if you miss, wave goodbye to 1/5 of your stamina bar.
Seriously this is the second fundamental imbalance in the game and honestly, it’s a pretty significant imbalance; magicka players have both resources being overtaxed, without comparable regeneration, with access to fewer abilities, they really can’t use stamina abilities, all while you have the drawback of getting CC locked 6 times faster than stamina characters at base, this disparage gets worse once you start factoring in regeneration and cost reductions. Most importantly though, not being able to Break Free…STOPS YOU FROM BEING ABLE TO PLAY THE GAME.
Well why don’t you just spec some resources into stamina? Well why shouldn’t I just play a stamina character instead right, if I have to give up dealing offensive damage, or god forbid give up sustain to add some stamina to my bar, and for what 2 extra break frees after cost reductions, so stamina characters will only be able to CC you 3 times faster than you can?
Please remove the cost from this ability.
Sprinting
The base cost of sprint as of U23 is 546 stamina. This means you can sprint nonstop for approximately 17.5 seconds. However, if you need to break free or block after sprinting for 17.5 seconds you die. If you want to hold up just 1 break free, you can’t run for more than 7.5 seconds at base costs and resources, this also means you no longer have access now to; block, bash which also includes an interrupt, roll dodge which is a huge evasion source, or any stamina abilities. Maybe if we never use sprint it’ll be better? Nope, still only get 1 break free at base cost and resources. What if I want to keep up with the rest of my group while we’re in combat out in Cyrodiil? Well if you do that you could get CC locked and die, and if you stray from the group, you’ll still likely have an equal chance of dying so it doesn’t matter do whatever.
What if I need to run away from a player, I’m at a disadvantage to playing against? Oh well no you can’t do that, stamina characters can outrun you 9 TIMES OVER AT BASE COST with a 35K stam pool, if you don’t want to get CC’d which also results in you dying. Hang on… doesn’t that mean that if a stamina character gets engaged in a battle, they’re similarly at a disadvantage fighting that they’ll just be able to grossly outrun or out dodge roll any magicka character? Why yes it does, all they have to do is hold up their stam potion, right which is more stam than your base bar, it also means they outrun anyone with less stamina too, which turns into what, ridiculous starring contests. Who’s going to use the first ability YAY! Who can proc more cost poisons, because that’s REALLY how everyone wants to compete.
But again, what’s the most important thing not being able to sprint does? IT STOPS YOU FROM BEING ABLE TO PLAY THE GAME, less so than the other two admittedly but still this enables already advantaged players to escape fights that they shouldn’t be losing in the first place. Why are we enabling unskilled game play like this? Shoot off a CC, pop a potion, roll dodge away. Nightblades can stealth away as long as they don’t get hit by an AoE, but my god do people complain about it especially stam players, but it’s one of the reasons Magicka Nightblades are viable, Sorcs have streak so they can just streak away from other magicka players or maybe get lucky and stun lock a stam character that over extended. Are you starting to see how the PVP class structure shakes out?
Conclusion
Please in all honesty take a serious look at these 3 fundamental game mechanics that impact everyone and look at what they’re enabling players to do and how it’s effecting meta diversity. So far I think changes have been moving in a direction that’s ultimately going to help balance PVP combat; make all classes comparable so you can actually try and figure out which classes; specifically what abilities and passives are over performing and most importantly why they’re over performing. I think these are probably more fundamental issues that need to be addressed. I get there are a lot of priorities for the game right now, but I seriously think this needs to be one of them. I don’t think it’s a priority right now but I’m hoping this thread will help make it one.
Adjusting these abilities shouldn’t have any significant negative impact on PVP game play when you really stop and think about it, but it really should help bring all builds more into balance. I’d genuinely be surprised if anyone had a legitimate imbalance concern that couldn’t be addressed or adjusted using other game mechanics, that revolved around a change to the three mechanics.
Seriously who’s going to complain about not being able to kill a CC locked player anymore.
1. Hard CC’s on gap closers/abilities than can be used at range, that also have multiple effects, without any drawbacks or limitations are not abilities that should be in game.
2. Break free among other stamina taxes, contribute to magicka players being set at a fundamental and significant disadvantage, purely from a limited resource perspective, especially against stamina players.
3. Sprinting being the way it is means you can’t avoid those imbalanced match ups, if any player has a bigger stamina pool than you, while also not being able to effectively kill people that can just roll dodge away and dodge your abilities once their resources drop too low. Important to note SPEED COMPOUNDS THIS EFFECT BOTH POSITIVELY AND NEGATIVELY. Swift trait nerf.
Most importantly though these things stop people from playing the game, trust me, so please consider adjusting how these abilities operate because it’s in your best interest.
I’m writing this thread because adjusting the three mechanics mentioned in the subject will have the biggest positive impact on how combat operates specifically for PVP, while conversely having little or no negative impact for PVE.
I tried to find where I originally read the concept I’m going to discuss here, not that its particularly original, but it comes up a lot when Wizards of the Coast talks about why they’ve banned specific magic cards over the years, what justifies banning a card from constructed play, and what types of game mechanics are; “unhealthy”, “unfun”, or “oppressive”.
For those not familiar with Wizards of the Coast they’ve been designing a trading card game called Magic: The Gathering since 1993, which is hailed by many, including myself, as the most successful trading card game franchise ever, with over 20 million players worldwide.
Basically, my takeaway from their understanding of preventing Imbalance boils down to understanding this statement; the only thing less fun than losing a game is never getting to play that game at all. What’s important about this thought is the inevitable conclusion; if I don’t get to play the game, while I’m playing the game, why bother playing the game at all? The statement highlighted in bold struck me specifically for the first time when I was learning to PVP.
Before I continue, I just want to say up front these suggestions aren’t an attack against players who use stuns, stamina characters, or anyone specific class type. This is a fundamental issue; some builds benefit more from this than others at times but that’s not what’s important to focus on right now. I use stuns and I’ve played stamina characters before; I genuinely don’t mind what you’re playing if it’s in line with the rest of the options out there. Honestly if you’re really that good of a player you shouldn’t even need to play with a stun effect, in the current meta you’d be crazy not too but just putting that out there.
My goal here is to highlight how Crowd Control effects (CCs); hide imbalance in combat, which inherently makes trying to balance a game not very effective, prevents people from playing the game, and enables low skill game play. Seriously you could probably justify not having any stuns in the game at all; excluding maybe clause stuns, i.e. you CC the target if these limiting criteria occur because it’s utilized in PVE as an interrupt mechanic, and its usually balanced in PVP scenarios.
Obviously, you probably couldn’t just remove CC’s and not make any other changes but solving the problems are for the developers all I can do here is try to address a problem and show people why it’s an issue and what it’ll ultimately do to the game and community.
Hard Crowd Control – STUN, FEAR, KNOCKBACK, KNOCKDOWN
This has probably happened to everyone at some point. You get CC’d for a few seconds, which means you literally can’t do anything for the duration of the stun if you can’t break free. The enemy can use any attacks doesn’t really matter while you’re lying there on the ground, you just sit and watch your character die. I typically just put my controller down and wait.
Now in my opinion I don’t think that’s fun for either player, but more importantly I think this mechanic will eventually make people ask the question, well why bother playing if I eventually die to being CC locked? I want to earn my kills, getting a kill while my opponent isn’t engaged and fighting back is like beating someone when their controller batteries die, you do a rematch because of course you beat them; they couldn’t play the game.
Some people out there will justify this by saying the CC locked player didn’t manage their resources, which I don’t agree with. What that statement means is the player wasn’t a stamina character and that’s why they died. I could understand how CC’s probably found their way into PVP originally, they’re particularly effective when someone is; block camping on a tank, or outnumbered. I don’t want to go too in depth on this because they’re already in the game, so I hope they were enabled in PVP for a reason to keep something in balance or at least at some point in time this was the case.
I noticed the developers have started to realize CC’s might not be such a great idea, particularly when used by aggressive players. The destructive touch ability no longer grants a stun on the shock staff. Still more concerning are abilities that remain like Shield Charge/the morphs…. Gap Closer at 22m, Deals Damage, Stuns for up to 6 seconds potentially, and - and grants a damage shield. ZOS has already established how impactful and powerful gap closers are, why does a gap closer have a 6 second stun, that also deals damage? Please don’t respond to this and tell me that distance is a clause because that’s not a drawback.
Now let’s clarify something here; Lotus Fan, right? No longer stuns, again, or… doesn’t matter, want to know why it was too good with a stun? *Whispers* Stamina players could use this ability to deal more damage than Shield Charge without it taxing their stamina, because how many times do you need to gap close an opponent that can’t sprint for more than 7 seconds without being able to Break free. Want to know what the real issue with the ability was? It was a CC effect without a drawback on a ranged ability, coupled with damage.
Piercing Javelin, Bolt Escape, hmm… what do these two things have in common? Oh my god those abilities are used on the only two classes outperforming the other classes, why? The other classes don’t have comparable abilities! Range, Damage, and CC WITHOUT CLAUSE ON IMPACT, seriously this has to be a big no no going forward. Please don’t make abilities like this and please at a bare minimum put a clause on and adjust the ones that are out there across the board no exceptions.
But you forgot Leap, no that’s an ultimate ability which is a major limiting factor, the ability is extremely good to be honest, but I don’t think the CC is an issue. The reduced cost, and the damage shield are an issue, I don’t think the ability is 110 ultimate ability, minimum of 150, to prevent it from being spammed. The damage shield… and this is the kind of stuff that rubs me the wrong way. Why should you need a damage shield if you just double CC’d everyone in the immediate area? Oh you mean you sometimes don’t get everyone? That’s okay here’s a 100% damage shield you can have while you wait for the rest of the group to run in and ult dump on a bunch of CC’d people. The ability I think is supposed to be used by tanky builds, but the damage shield enables non-tanky builds to over utilize the effects of the ability offensively without a drawback.
Seriously look at the Bone Totem; Remote Totem doesn’t deal damage, but it also doesn’t give an immediate fear on impact. Agony totem deals damage BUT with a synergy clause, plus its stationary, but the fear isn’t on impact. What did they have to do? They had to buff it and give in continued fear pulses, but CRUCIALLY note that they didn’t give it fear on impact.
But dude it’s not that big of a deal all you have to do is use Break Free.
If its not a big deal, then just give EVERYONE access to a passive that grants full immunity to ALL CC effects that stop you from playing the game; STUN, FEAR, KNOCKDOWN AND KNOCKBACK.
Break Free
If you don’t want to give everyone CC immunity then take away the cost of Break Free, it already increases the minimum duration of all the CC’s with an animation effect, which is a major drawback, why should it even have a cost, sometimes it winds up acting as an increased duration for the CC clear and you PAY FOR IT? Get a grip.
The base stamina bar with CP in U23 is 9549. The base cost of Break Free is 5400. THAT MEANS YOU GET 1 BREAK FREE. What’s the average stamina player bar, maybe around 35K on the lower side? At 35K stamina you get 6 break frees, 6 times more than someone not spec’d into stamina, and not to mention you gain access to a whole entire other resource bar that you don’t have to use if you don’t want to, but seriously if you can why not slot 1 or 2 magicka abilities that do the same thing your stam abilities do, because then what happens? Break free essentially becomes free! Why because you don’t have to use all stamina abilities, because there’s no consistent drain on magicka which means you can over utilize regeneration stats. Imagine what this is like after factoring in regen and cost reductions from CP and items sets.
If you’re a magicka player, the compounded obverse; you essentially lose access to a secondary resource to use alternative abilities, which means, and this is very important, BOTH your magicka and stamina bars are being overtaxed compared to stamina, plus you can’t really utilize stamina abilities without the major drawback of being CC’d, this is before we even consider; sprinting, and blocking WHICH YOU DON’T REGENERATE STAMINA WHILE USING, which is correct for obvious reasons but it means what little stamina regen you do get is literally worthless. Forget about dodge rolling, or even accidentally bashing which will now cost stamina even if you miss, wave goodbye to 1/5 of your stamina bar.
Seriously this is the second fundamental imbalance in the game and honestly, it’s a pretty significant imbalance; magicka players have both resources being overtaxed, without comparable regeneration, with access to fewer abilities, they really can’t use stamina abilities, all while you have the drawback of getting CC locked 6 times faster than stamina characters at base, this disparage gets worse once you start factoring in regeneration and cost reductions. Most importantly though, not being able to Break Free…STOPS YOU FROM BEING ABLE TO PLAY THE GAME.
Well why don’t you just spec some resources into stamina? Well why shouldn’t I just play a stamina character instead right, if I have to give up dealing offensive damage, or god forbid give up sustain to add some stamina to my bar, and for what 2 extra break frees after cost reductions, so stamina characters will only be able to CC you 3 times faster than you can?
Please remove the cost from this ability.
Sprinting
The base cost of sprint as of U23 is 546 stamina. This means you can sprint nonstop for approximately 17.5 seconds. However, if you need to break free or block after sprinting for 17.5 seconds you die. If you want to hold up just 1 break free, you can’t run for more than 7.5 seconds at base costs and resources, this also means you no longer have access now to; block, bash which also includes an interrupt, roll dodge which is a huge evasion source, or any stamina abilities. Maybe if we never use sprint it’ll be better? Nope, still only get 1 break free at base cost and resources. What if I want to keep up with the rest of my group while we’re in combat out in Cyrodiil? Well if you do that you could get CC locked and die, and if you stray from the group, you’ll still likely have an equal chance of dying so it doesn’t matter do whatever.
What if I need to run away from a player, I’m at a disadvantage to playing against? Oh well no you can’t do that, stamina characters can outrun you 9 TIMES OVER AT BASE COST with a 35K stam pool, if you don’t want to get CC’d which also results in you dying. Hang on… doesn’t that mean that if a stamina character gets engaged in a battle, they’re similarly at a disadvantage fighting that they’ll just be able to grossly outrun or out dodge roll any magicka character? Why yes it does, all they have to do is hold up their stam potion, right which is more stam than your base bar, it also means they outrun anyone with less stamina too, which turns into what, ridiculous starring contests. Who’s going to use the first ability YAY! Who can proc more cost poisons, because that’s REALLY how everyone wants to compete.
But again, what’s the most important thing not being able to sprint does? IT STOPS YOU FROM BEING ABLE TO PLAY THE GAME, less so than the other two admittedly but still this enables already advantaged players to escape fights that they shouldn’t be losing in the first place. Why are we enabling unskilled game play like this? Shoot off a CC, pop a potion, roll dodge away. Nightblades can stealth away as long as they don’t get hit by an AoE, but my god do people complain about it especially stam players, but it’s one of the reasons Magicka Nightblades are viable, Sorcs have streak so they can just streak away from other magicka players or maybe get lucky and stun lock a stam character that over extended. Are you starting to see how the PVP class structure shakes out?
Conclusion
Please in all honesty take a serious look at these 3 fundamental game mechanics that impact everyone and look at what they’re enabling players to do and how it’s effecting meta diversity. So far I think changes have been moving in a direction that’s ultimately going to help balance PVP combat; make all classes comparable so you can actually try and figure out which classes; specifically what abilities and passives are over performing and most importantly why they’re over performing. I think these are probably more fundamental issues that need to be addressed. I get there are a lot of priorities for the game right now, but I seriously think this needs to be one of them. I don’t think it’s a priority right now but I’m hoping this thread will help make it one.
Adjusting these abilities shouldn’t have any significant negative impact on PVP game play when you really stop and think about it, but it really should help bring all builds more into balance. I’d genuinely be surprised if anyone had a legitimate imbalance concern that couldn’t be addressed or adjusted using other game mechanics, that revolved around a change to the three mechanics.
Seriously who’s going to complain about not being able to kill a CC locked player anymore.
1. Hard CC’s on gap closers/abilities than can be used at range, that also have multiple effects, without any drawbacks or limitations are not abilities that should be in game.
2. Break free among other stamina taxes, contribute to magicka players being set at a fundamental and significant disadvantage, purely from a limited resource perspective, especially against stamina players.
3. Sprinting being the way it is means you can’t avoid those imbalanced match ups, if any player has a bigger stamina pool than you, while also not being able to effectively kill people that can just roll dodge away and dodge your abilities once their resources drop too low. Important to note SPEED COMPOUNDS THIS EFFECT BOTH POSITIVELY AND NEGATIVELY. Swift trait nerf.
Most importantly though these things stop people from playing the game, trust me, so please consider adjusting how these abilities operate because it’s in your best interest.
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Anyron✭✭✭✭✭
✭Choosing magicka or Stamina based playstyle, each have its own advantages and limitations.
While stamina has better Damage, movement and utility options (like mentioned sprinting, dodging and blocking) magicka has shields and healing.
This alone can tell you which is better. Stamina. Even bigger issues, as magicka, you have in noCp where this Gap between magicka and stamina is even bigger. One CC break and you are out of stamina - as magicka.
Forget about using block or sprint. Do it in duel and its sure death2 -
Bullseyebudx✭✭✭JumpmanLane wrote: »TL;DR lol
-_-
I figured something articulate was better than the the knuckle dragging ape response, but if it’s needed.
STAMINA TOO STRONG, MAGICKA WEAK
TOO MANY STAM PLAYERS RAWH
MY CHARACTER CANT RUN FAR AND I KEEP DYING RAWH RAWH
WHY I CANT DO ANYTHING?!?! RAAAWWHHHH MAKE ME ANGRY!! FIX!!!
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Idinuse✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭---
Edited by Idinuse on August 22, 2019 11:48PMSed ut perspiciatis unde omnis iste natus error sit voluptatem accusantium dolorem que laudantium, totam rem aperiam, eaque ipsa quae ab illo inventore veritatis et quasi architecto beatae vitae dicta sunt explicabo. Nemo enim ipsam voluptatem quia voluptas sit aspernatur aut odit aut fugit, sed quia consequuntur magni dolores eos qui ratione voluptatem sequi nesciunt. Neque porro quisquam est, qui dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit, sed quia non numquam eius modi tempora incidunt ut labore et dolore magnam aliquam quaerat voluptatem. Ut enim ad minima veniam, quis nostrum exercitationem ullam corporis suscipit laboriosam, nisi ut aliquid ex ea commodi consequatur? Quis autem vel eum iure reprehenderit qui in ea voluptate velit esse quam nihil molestiae consequatur, vel illum qui dolorem eum fugiat quo voluptas nulla pariatur?1 -
Sanctum74✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭JumpmanLane wrote: »TL;DR lol
I'll sum it up for you, basically just 29 paragraphs repeating the same thing. Op doesn't want to learn game mechanics and/or use a proper build.
Op should try playing a stam build and see how "easy" it is. Personally I find it much easier to manage stamina on a magick character.
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Bullseyebudx✭✭✭I'll sum it up for you, basically just 29 paragraphs repeating the same thing. Op doesn't want to learn game mechanics and/or use a proper build.
Op should try playing a stam build and see how "easy" it is. Personally I find it much easier to manage stamina on a magick character.
Did I say playing a stamina character was easy?
Obviously you didn't read my post, I never said playing a stamina character was "easy".
Could you articulate more on what you mean when you say "learn game mechanics" which ones? Could you use a few examples?
Proper build so what? All tri glyph stats enchantments, I already addressed why this doesn't make any logical sense go back and read.
You want to know why its easier to manage your stam on a magicka character? There's nothing to manage you don't get to make any significant decisions, they're already made for you, hence the not managing anything part.Choosing magicka or Stamina based playstyle, each have its own advantages and limitations.
While stamina has better Damage, movement and utility options (like mentioned sprinting, dodging and blocking) magicka has shields and healing.
This alone can tell you which is better. Stamina. Even bigger issues, as magicka, you have in noCp where this Gap between magicka and stamina is even bigger. One CC break and you are out of stamina - as magicka.
Forget about using block or sprint. Do it in duel and its sure death
So why do stamina players have Vigor, Bone Surge, and Defensive Stance?
Some people expect basic fundamental balance in a game its really not a high expectation.0 -
Sanctum74✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Bullseyebudx wrote: »I'll sum it up for you, basically just 29 paragraphs repeating the same thing. Op doesn't want to learn game mechanics and/or use a proper build.
Op should try playing a stam build and see how "easy" it is. Personally I find it much easier to manage stamina on a magick character.
Did I say playing a stamina character was easy?
Obviously you didn't read my post, I never said playing a stamina character was "easy".
Could you articulate more on what you mean when you say "learn game mechanics" which ones? Could you use a few examples?
Proper build so what? All tri glyph stats enchantments, I already addressed why this doesn't make any logical sense go back and read.
You want to know why its easier to manage your stam on a magicka character? There's nothing to manage you don't get to make any significant decisions, they're already made for you, hence the not managing anything part.Choosing magicka or Stamina based playstyle, each have its own advantages and limitations.
While stamina has better Damage, movement and utility options (like mentioned sprinting, dodging and blocking) magicka has shields and healing.
This alone can tell you which is better. Stamina. Even bigger issues, as magicka, you have in noCp where this Gap between magicka and stamina is even bigger. One CC break and you are out of stamina - as magicka.
Forget about using block or sprint. Do it in duel and its sure death
So why do stamina players have Vigor, Bone Surge, and Defensive Stance?
Some people expect basic fundamental balance in a game its really not a high expectation.
Game mechanics like learning when to block, roll dodge, sprint, and break free and more importantly when not to as to not waste precious stamina.
As far as proper build there are various options like tri stat glyphs, amber plasm, shacklebreaker, and undaunted to name a few. Class, weapon, armor, and race passives also contribute to sustain as well as proper cp allocation and tri stat potions also work wonders.
You also just contradicted yourself, if magicka characters have nothing to manage in terms of stamina then why are you struggling to break free and decided to make this thread?
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Bullseyebudx✭✭✭Bullseyebudx wrote: »I'll sum it up for you, basically just 29 paragraphs repeating the same thing. Op doesn't want to learn game mechanics and/or use a proper build.
Op should try playing a stam build and see how "easy" it is. Personally I find it much easier to manage stamina on a magick character.
Did I say playing a stamina character was easy?
Obviously you didn't read my post, I never said playing a stamina character was "easy".
Could you articulate more on what you mean when you say "learn game mechanics" which ones? Could you use a few examples?
Proper build so what? All tri glyph stats enchantments, I already addressed why this doesn't make any logical sense go back and read.
You want to know why its easier to manage your stam on a magicka character? There's nothing to manage you don't get to make any significant decisions, they're already made for you, hence the not managing anything part.Choosing magicka or Stamina based playstyle, each have its own advantages and limitations.
While stamina has better Damage, movement and utility options (like mentioned sprinting, dodging and blocking) magicka has shields and healing.
This alone can tell you which is better. Stamina. Even bigger issues, as magicka, you have in noCp where this Gap between magicka and stamina is even bigger. One CC break and you are out of stamina - as magicka.
Forget about using block or sprint. Do it in duel and its sure death
So why do stamina players have Vigor, Bone Surge, and Defensive Stance?
Some people expect basic fundamental balance in a game its really not a high expectation.
Game mechanics like learning when to block, roll dodge, sprint, and break free and more importantly when not to as to not waste precious stamina.
As far as proper build there are various options like tri stat glyphs, amber plasm, shacklebreaker, and undaunted to name a few. Class, weapon, armor, and race passives also contribute to sustain as well as proper cp allocation and tri stat potions also work wonders.
You also just contradicted yourself, if magicka characters have nothing to manage in terms of stamina then why are you struggling to break free and decided to make this thread?
Wow, hey thanks for all that great advice, it’s too bad my original post didn’t ask for build help or resource management help. In my original post I was stating facts and fundamental issues with how game mechanics operate, I didn’t say I don’t know how to manage resources or make my own builds. I also wasn’t complaining about anyone one specific build or even expressing issues that couldn’t also occur on stamina characters, if you actually read my post you’d know this.
Again since you obviously didn’t make it past the first couple paragraphs, I’m addressing a fundamental issue with the base resources and regeneration.
If your a stamina character, you can stack all your resources and regeneration into stamina because you can CHOOSE not to use Magicka without being at a disadvantage since you have access to all the same “types” of skills Magicka players have. Which means if you can do that you can also CHOOSE to just use 1 Magicka ability or 2 or 3. This is how I would describe RESOURCE MANAGEMENT.
On a Magicka player you can’t CHOOSE to stack all your abilities into one resource pool, which means your forced to either use the abilities in a limited capacity, sacrifice offense to use them, or not use them at all, which I wouldn’t really describe as RESOURCE MANAGEMENT it’s really resource allocation on a Magicka player, sorry I should have clarified that to avoid confusion.
Since you almost always have to use BREAK FREE, you’re forced to pull from a resource pool you might not want to pull from, but YOU HAVE TOO and it’s also not when you CHOOSE too.
Does that make sense? Do you understand how you could have a fundamental advantage over another player if you can CHOOSE whether or not you want to use a resource pool and the other player DOESN’T get that same CHOICE?
Do you get it?
In the future please try to address anything relevant that was actually brought up in the original post, I think you must have just assumed after reading the first couple of paragraphs that I MUST not know what I’m doing, and that I hate stamina players grr.
This just seems to be the default response to anyone that has anything potentially negative to say about stamina;
Lul get good newb, learn mechanics noob lul, learn how to build and manage resources noob lul.
Seriously every thread that even remotely suggests negativity about stamina it’s always the same dribble response as above.
Did you have anything meaningful to contribute to the discussion about what I discussed in my original post or did you just come in here to show everyone how much you know about character builds and RESOURCE MANAGEMENT?1 -
vesselwiththepestle✭✭✭✭✭
✭On my stamina characters I need magicka to use skills like fossilize, wings, trellis etc. I like Shacklebreaker very much. I try to avoid utility skills with high stamina cost.
On my magicka characters I don't have huge stamina problems. I run high elf though, which gives me plenty of stamina return. I only use 2 Tri stat. the rest is magical or health.
So my experience is fundamentally different.1000+ CP
PC/EU Ravenwatch Daggerfall Covenant
Give me my wings back!2 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think you’re pretty off on a lot of this. It reads more like someone who feels their class is the weakest which is a common thing. I main a stamina templar and magicka dk though I’ve played all classes and specs aside from necro at one point or another. Imo? The balance between stam and mag pools is pretty balanced between specs and classes as are CC options, one or two outliers aside. Contrary to what many people say I have personally never had stam issues on my mag toons. What I think is the main problem is people more easily go to block, sprint or roll dodge to avoid damage than to use the skills available to magicka players. I run a 16k off stat pool on both my mag DK and Stamplar and I run outta mag on my Stamplar way more often than I run outta stamina on my mag DK. Both specs are heavy armor with similar hitting power.Edited by Vapirko on August 23, 2019 7:05AM3 -
ZarkingFrued✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think you’re pretty off on a lot of this. It reads more like someone who feels their class is the weakest which is a common thing. I main a stamina templar and magicka dk though I’ve played all classes and specs aside from necro at one point or another. Imo? The balance between stam and mag pools is pretty balanced between specs and classes as are CC options, one or two outliers aside. Contrary to what many people say I have personally never had stam issues on my mag toons. What I think is the main problem is people more easily go to block, sprint or roll dodge to avoid damage than to use the skills available to magicka players. I run a 16k off stat pool on both my mag DK and Stamplar and I run outta mag on my Stamplar way more often than I run outta stamina on my mag DK. Both specs are heavy armor with similar hitting power.
Gotta agree here, I dont run outta stam on a mag char. It's all just L2P stuff from what I'm reading, and I know that the OP would never believe that and will probably think I'm insulting him/her, but there is no justification for any of the proposed changes4 -
Bullseyebudx✭✭✭vesselwiththepestle wrote: »On my stamina characters I need magicka to use skills like fossilize, wings, trellis etc. I like Shacklebreaker very much. I try to avoid utility skills with high stamina cost.
On my magicka characters I don't have huge stamina problems. I run high elf though, which gives me plenty of stamina return. I only use 2 Tri stat. the rest is magical or health.
So my experience is fundamentally different.
“I need” Magicka no you “want” Magicka but you sure don’t have to, you can just use a different stamina stun.
High elf probably does help a little, I know on magnecro I don’t usually run into major stam issues tbh, pet buff definitely helps.I think you’re pretty off on a lot of this. It reads more like someone who feels their class is the weakest which is a common thing. I main a stamina templar and magicka dk though I’ve played all classes and specs aside from necro at one point or another. Imo? The balance between stam and mag pools is pretty balanced between specs and classes as are CC options, one or two outliers aside. Contrary to what many people say I have personally never had stam issues on my mag toons. What I think is the main problem is people more easily go to block, sprint or roll dodge to avoid damage than to use the skills available to magicka players. I run a 16k off stat pool on both my mag DK and Stamplar and I run outta mag on my Stamplar way more often than I run outta stamina on my mag DK. Both specs are heavy armor with similar hitting power.
So if you’re not experiencing a problem it must just not exist then right is that how it works?
I’d probably run outta mag on a stamplar too all the time lol...ZarkingFrued wrote: »I think you’re pretty off on a lot of this. It reads more like someone who feels their class is the weakest which is a common thing. I main a stamina templar and magicka dk though I’ve played all classes and specs aside from necro at one point or another. Imo? The balance between stam and mag pools is pretty balanced between specs and classes as are CC options, one or two outliers aside. Contrary to what many people say I have personally never had stam issues on my mag toons. What I think is the main problem is people more easily go to block, sprint or roll dodge to avoid damage than to use the skills available to magicka players. I run a 16k off stat pool on both my mag DK and Stamplar and I run outta mag on my Stamplar way more often than I run outta stamina on my mag DK. Both specs are heavy armor with similar hitting power.
Gotta agree here, I dont run outta stam on a mag char. It's all just L2P stuff from what I'm reading, and I know that the OP would never believe that and will probably think I'm insulting him/her, but there is no justification for any of the proposed changes
Lul L2P noob lul lul
I’m more insulted you haven’t contributed anything new to the thread that hasn’t already been posted.
Can you explain how the proposed changes could potentially cause a problem in any articulated manner instead of just saying “no justification” which really just means WELL I DONT THINK SO.
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BlackMadara✭✭✭✭I can explain why the proposed changes would cause problems.
Being a game with no cooldowns, resource managment is the gate to actions. This game's combat was built with the current cc mechanics considered.
Even then, adjustments had to be made to some mechanics to force players to have smarter resource managment. Some examples are stamina regen being paused while sprinting and blocking, adjusting the cost application of blocking, and the stacking cost for dodge roll.
Stamina based characters must balance use of their main defensive mechanics with ability use. This encourages smart resource managment. Magicka based characters must bulld a minimum amount of stamina (regen) to avoid being kept in cc. This can be done in multiple fashions, from increasing stamina pool, stamina regen, or avoiding cc.
The existence of cc immunity (iirc 6s) means that one cannot be cc locked. This mechanic is necessary with a no cooldown system. If CCs were removed, or cc break untethered from stamina, block and dodge mechanics will have to adjusted from the ground up. That is a rather large endeavor.
Stamina characters gimp themselves if not using their magicka utility spells. Magicka characters gimp themselves if built with minimal stamina.
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Yakidafi✭✭✭✭✭
✭Hard CC: Are you talking about the break free bug or that you could not manage your stamina for whatever reason?
break free: well that is why on my magicka chars I spec some into stamina or/and regen for it, so I can handle those situations.
Sprinting: I don't know what to say about what you wrote...? learn how to escape/chase?
Conclusion: I think we need to research much further if these 3 game mechanics are broken as you say or if you only think they are, should one not build to defeat your enemies as best you can with or without CC in PvP, what will be the next "hard CC" that you will want to remove to balance the game after this? I do agree with that they do have more pressing matters to fix than this, like lagg for example.
I get how you could make the connection with break free and "not playing the game" but sprinting? Does that not allow you to play the game? If you play a FPS game and it have Flash grenades(in most games this make your screen go white and you can not hear anything) in it, would you see that as "not playing the game" aswell?
@BullseyebudxEdited by Yakidafi on August 23, 2019 2:24PMMoons and sands shall be your guide and path.
PC EU/NA0 -
Bullseyebudx✭✭✭BlackMadara wrote: »I can explain why the proposed changes would cause problems.
Being a game with no cooldowns, resource managment is the gate to actions. This game's combat was built with the current cc mechanics considered.
Even then, adjustments had to be made to some mechanics to force players to have smarter resource managment. Some examples are stamina regen being paused while sprinting and blocking, adjusting the cost application of blocking, and the stacking cost for dodge roll.
Stamina based characters must balance use of their main defensive mechanics with ability use. This encourages smart resource managment. Magicka based characters must bulld a minimum amount of stamina (regen) to avoid being kept in cc. This can be done in multiple fashions, from increasing stamina pool, stamina regen, or avoiding cc.
The existence of cc immunity (iirc 6s) means that one cannot be cc locked. This mechanic is necessary with a no cooldown system. If CCs were removed, or cc break untethered from stamina, block and dodge mechanics will have to adjusted from the ground up. That is a rather large endeavor.
Stamina characters gimp themselves if not using their magicka utility spells. Magicka characters gimp themselves if built with minimal stamina.
An intelligible response thank you!
Yah unlimited sprinting, blocking, and roll dodge couldn’t possibly become an issue who would have thought?
Why would you need to readjust blocking and roll dodge costs? Are you saying adjust them up or down???
Stamina players get to utilize an untaxed resource or ignore it, Magicka players can’t, as several people have already said they spec into stamina as a Magicka character, BUT AS A STAMINA PLAYER YOU DONT HAVE TO SPEC IN MAGICKA, AGAIN.
If you do spec into Magicka as a stamina player YOU GET TO CHOOSE WHICH ABILITIES UTILIZE MAGICKA.
How many Magicka abilities are you using on your stamina characters, 4?
Honestly I see tons of stamina builds that use no Magicka and they really don’t seem to be “gimped” like a Magicka player is not using stamina so I’m not sure I agree.
If they do use Magicka it’s the worst ability / a luxury ability / a redundant ability.
iirc 6s, doesn’t that come from using break free or is that a separate cool down?Hard CC: Are you talking about the break free bug or that you could not manage your stamina for whatever reason?
break free: well that is why on my magicka chars I spec some into stamina or/and regen for it, so I can handle those situations.
Sprinting: I don't know what to say about what you wrote...? learn how to escape/chase?
Conclusion: I think we need to research much further if these 3 game mechanics are broken as you say or if you only think they are, should one not build to defeat your enemies as best you can with or without CC in PvP, what will be the next "hard CC" that you will want to remove to balance the game after this? I do agree with that they do have more pressing matters to fix than this, like lagg for example.
I get how you could make the connection with break free and "not playing the game" but sprinting? Does that not allow you to play the game? If you play a FPS game and it have Flash grenades(in most games this make your screen go white and you can not hear anything) in it, would you see that as "not playing the game" aswell?
@Bullseyebudx
Honestly there’s so many performance issues I sometimes can’t tell what’s a bug anymore and what’s actually an intended mechanic.
Yes thank you everyone has already stated they spec into stamina on a Magicka character, but AGAIN stamina players DONT HAVE TO DO THIS.
TBH sprinting is the weakest point, it’s really more of a quality of life/enabling unskilled game play that’s the issue. It also exasperates the first two issues so that’s why it’s in there more so than it’s an issue just on its own; hence, why all three are discussed TOGETHER.
Honestly flash bang is a terrible example to your point, you can literally slot and use abilities that completely nullify the effects entirely LOL, and with little drawback. Now why do you suppose that is?
You want to know what happened after they did that? It stop being a catch all trash strategy, people stopped using flash grenades so aggressively, because now every once and while there's a major DRAWBACK that usually results in you getting killed, thinking you've flashed your opponent. Its called a TACTICAL GRENADE. You can also blind fire while you're flashed so you can still play, you just can't see anything. Line up hip fire on the door, maybe wait 1 second, and then just hold the trigger down.
Edited by Bullseyebudx on August 23, 2019 6:33PM0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The OP put a lot of thought into this and I kind of feel bad for writing this, but the thought that kept coming to mind as I read this is that the OP isn't very experienced.
Experienced players dont complain about "not being able to play" because of ccs and a stun should never last more than a second. Against an opponent who knows what they are doing, CC is necessary, otherwise they'll probably won't dieEdited by Joy_Division on August 23, 2019 7:24PMMake Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.5 -
Bullseyebudx✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »The OP put a lot of thought into this and I kind of feel bad for writing this, but the thought that kept coming to mind as I read this is that the OP isn't very experienced.
Experienced players dont complain about "not being able to play" because of ccs and a stun should never last more than a second.
You make a fair point I don't have tons of PVP experience but that doesn't mean what I'm saying isnt true, and tbh the game has changed so significantly over the last year I'm not sure how impactful experience really is right now.
It's not like I just stopped playing PVP, I still play magicka characters, I simply adjusted how I play them.
I'm sharing my observations, while trying to address an issue that will probably cause problems in the long run, that's just my opinion.
The only reason I brought it up at all is because it's pretty clear to me that stamina has a fundamental advantage over magicka, which isn't something you want in a game. This is especially true since stamina players already have the built in offensive and defensive buffs via higher weapon damage and more resistances on medium and heavy armor they’ve always had in previous games.
All the numbers I discussed in my post are true, stamina players still have a limited resource advantage over magicka users, and they also have more CC clears, which as you said is the only way to kill an opponent that knows what they're doing.
Obviously the way things are going right now isn't working out so well, everything changes significantly every patch, and its usually pretty volatile.
From the sounds of it magicka users are at an advantage in U23 because DOT are very strong for now, not sure if this is true though not live on console yet.
Still doesnt change my point of view, even playing a stamina character or come other updates, I'll still have that same point of view.against an opponent who knows what they are doing, CC is necessary, otherwise they'll probably won't die
That's not a good thing, this is what I'm trying to say; if the only way to kill a good player is by CCing them, then all good players should only play Stamina builds, because they'll get more CC clears, which will create imbalance.Edited by Bullseyebudx on August 23, 2019 8:53PM1 -
kalunte✭✭✭✭✭i really love magicka complaining about their stamina pool forgeting that stam HAVE to slot magicka based skills not to waste the entire pool.
with all passives tied to active skills it ends up in a significantly different way to make bars and could be considered as fine.
also if you keep on breaking free/dodging/sprinting, you just cant have any ressource left in your main pool to cast a skill while a mag can still hope for a shield to drop if they manage to survive a hard cc duration.
this very difference between mag and stam based char in pvp is essential for ESO diversity.
i'm not gonna learn ppl how to play (deltias and alcast are doing it if you want a teacher) still i recommend you to think a bit more about the ins and outs of ressource pools managing issues. or even better, test it yourself.4 -
Nerftheforums✭✭✭✭✭
✭It really reads out as a new player that gets frustrated by being unable to compete for lack of knowledge both from a mechanical and theorycrafting pov.
Personally, I have 0 issues sustaining stam on my mag characters (mnb, magplar and magsorc), but I'm sure it because I've played pvp for 4 years and I know a lot about game mechanics and theorycrafting.
Just give yourself some time, and don't run around with 10k stam on 600 stam regen. You'll enjoy this game's combat mechanics once you learn them
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Major_Lag✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Against an opponent who really knows what they are doing, CC is nearly worthless, because they will be on CC immunity 100% of the time in any case.Joy_Division wrote: »Against an opponent who knows what they are doing, CC is necessary, otherwise they'll probably won't die
The only utility of CC in such a case is to force the opponent to waste some resources to get CC immunity - which is a ludicrous inversion of the original purpose of CC abilities.
A similar reasoning goes for snares, since snare immunity is also very much a thing of its own (ie. RAT).0 -
Rake✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Against an opponent who really knows what they are doing, CC is nearly worthless, because they will be on CC immunity 100% of the time in any case.Joy_Division wrote: »Against an opponent who knows what they are doing, CC is necessary, otherwise they'll probably won't die
The only utility of CC in such a case is to force the opponent to waste some resources to get CC immunity - which is a ludicrous inversion of the original purpose of CC abilities.
A similar reasoning goes for snares, since snare immunity is also very much a thing of its own (ie. RAT).
what2 -
aaisoaho✭✭✭✭✭You are correct with the statement "not being able to play is worse than losing" and it is the reason why there needs to be counterplay to hard CCs - and we do have in ESO: CC immunity (immovable buff[?]).
You get the immovable buff from ending of hard CC (either the CC timer runs out or you break free), from some skills or from potions. CC immunity lasts 6 seconds if I recall correctly, which means you have 6 second window where you can't be hard CCd and which means you can play and control your character in fights. Also, many skills have counterplay, be it blocking, dodging or movement (Getting out of line of sight or getting out of AoE, do keep in mind the location where you fight).
By forcing the opponent to break free, you are buring either their off-resource (magicka players) or their primary resource (stamina players). In the case of primary resource it means they have less resources to cast their skills and if the stamina player is constantly blocking, dodging, running and breaking free it means they have no resources to deal damage, cast vigor etc. they are not pressuring you at that point. If a magicka player is blocking, dodging, running and breaking free, the player can still use their primary resource to fight back and cast their skills.
As a stamina player, I rarely use sprint. This is because I need the main resource to fight. If I use 50% of my stamina pool to run, I have a lot less stamina to fight and for such, engaging in a fight starts with a setting where I already need to regen to be able to sustain a longer fight.1 -
Delsskia✭✭✭✭Until they re-write and optimize the spaghetti code and build it on top of a game engine that's modern and capable of handling large scale combat... The best thing ZOS can do for PVP would immediately increase server performance. Use Battle Spirit to disable ALL proc sets in Cyrodiil. ESO has never been able to handle all of the calculations well, yet they just keep adding more with every new DLC by introducing another handful of proc sets.
Just imagine, with about 1/2 of the current calculations gone, we might actually be able to break free. Skills would fire when you hit the buttons the first time. We might be able to use the doors at Keeps with just one button push. Of course the train wreck they call programming would still cause bottlenecks, but removing that many calculations from the bottlenecks would have a huge, positive impact on performance.
NA-PC
Fantasia1
