Bring back player skill to the game.

Shadowasrial

For years now zenimax has been catering to the new players. Dumbing down skills. Watering down combat so that new players can be competitive to veteran players. I’m all for new players being able to defend themselves but your starting to let this grow into the point where you actually removing the need for skill in the game. It started with proc sets. It advanced with pay to win classes there was a time where wardens were so op in Cyrodil that 6 out of 10 players you came across we’re running one. Now you introduced the necromancer which made the old op warden look like a pushover. And now your pushing for a dot meta. This has got to stop. If your going to claim you want to balance the game then actually buff thing underperforming aspects and nerf over performing. People get so upset at dying in pvp that now it’s pretty much a heavy armor dot meta. You can’t gank hardly anyone anymore. You can’t fight small groups because your damage isn’t high enough these days to fight a group of tanks. And you pushed the Zerg mentality that if you aren’t part of the Zerg that your utterly useless. Iv been playing this game since the very first day: exclusively on my one toon. Iv gone through buffs and nerfs and always adapting but I have to draw the line when you want to reward players for pressing a few buttons and letting dots do all the work. It’s time to bring back the skill required for the game. You shouldn’t be a new player to this game and be able to go into Cyrodil on a bashbuild and wipe out a whole seasoned group. You shouldn’t be able to throw up shields and take no damage while able to dish it out with impunity. You shouldn’t be a tank and able to out dps an actual dps.

regime211

I can't wait to bring my defile knight into the dot meta. He is about to be 10x stronger!

Jayman1000

This game is 80% gear/build 20% actual player skill. So yes, I do agree with you. More actual skill required less gear/build power.

Strider__Roshin

This game is for casuals. Move on or stay frustrated.

Shadowasrial

Daus wrote: »

This game is for casuals. Move on or stay frustrated.

I have to disagree. There is a ton of content that can’t even be completed by casuals. And pvp is one of the things that should be skill based. The whole point of pvp is that it’s player vs player. Your testing your wits and skill against another player. There’s nothing casual about that. If you have skill you should be able to kill a lot better than a casual player. But since zenimax wants to cater to players like you who prefer everything handed to them on a silver platter it’s causing the pvp community to get ever more frustrated

Linaleah

rubs temples. if this game didn't require skill, we wouldn't have such a GIGANTIC SKILL GAP IN IT.

the nerfs don't happen because of players without skill. the nerfs happen because highly skilled players disrupt balance and ESO combat being what it is, ZoS cannot seem to figure out that nerf bats will NOT fix that.

i WISH they would dumb down skills so that those of us without reflexes of a 10 year old couple actualy be even marginaly closer to the upper tier of damage, etc.

the numbers are the other way around. your gear might contribute 30% of your performance... maaaybe 40% and i'm being generous. the rest? is skill. rotation.

Nerftheforums

So much truth in such few words.

Strider__Roshin

Shadowasrial wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

This game is for casuals. Move on or stay frustrated.

I have to disagree. There is a ton of content that can’t even be completed by casuals. And pvp is one of the things that should be skill based. The whole point of pvp is that it’s player vs player. Your testing your wits and skill against another player. There’s nothing casual about that. If you have skill you should be able to kill a lot better than a casual player. But since zenimax wants to cater to players like you who prefer everything handed to them on a silver platter it’s causing the pvp community to get ever more frustrated

Like me? Nah I jumped ship because I don't like talentless combat. But keep making assumptions.

SirAndy

Paragraphs save posts ...

Also, anyone else remember when you got more XP the "better" you fought a mob? Sadly that never made it out of beta.

D0PAMINE

SirAndy wrote: »

Paragraphs save posts ...

Also, anyone else remember when you got more XP the "better" you fought a mob? Sadly that never made it out of beta.

I was too late for beta, been herr since the 4th day of PC launch. I remember chatting with you in Reapers waaaaaay back in the VR days.

RedGirl41

Original poster you are 100% correct. You play a harder class with a non proc set setup and people zerg you down with all ulti and tbag you for being bad.... hello? Sets carry

Players are always going to make cancer but when it’s so easily carried it just ruins the game. Ps4 NA never got the pummeling Goliath nerf so we still have 24+ man Zergs with all bash builds 😂 real great to try and play solo or small groups. Even when my guild tries to ap farm with a balanced group of 10-12 we get rolled by massive Zergs of bash builds and siege.

Davor

Is there a shortage of paragraphs? Spent so much time typing it out for not to be read.

Didn't read since it hurts trying to read it.


All I can say, if you want player skill, go find a game that has player skill. Not sure why people need to be sport jocks in a video game.

Maybe once paragraphs can be afforded and used, then I will be able to read beside "dumbing down".

Sir_Xalvador

Shadowasrial wrote: »

For years now zenimax has been catering to the new players. Dumbing down skills. Watering down combat so that new players can be competitive to veteran players. I’m all for new players being able to defend themselves but your starting to let this grow into the point where you actually removing the need for skill in the game. It started with proc sets. It advanced with pay to win classes there was a time where wardens were so op in Cyrodil that 6 out of 10 players you came across we’re running one. Now you introduced the necromancer which made the old op warden look like a pushover. And now your pushing for a dot meta. This has got to stop. If your going to claim you want to balance the game then actually buff thing underperforming aspects and nerf over performing. People get so upset at dying in pvp that now it’s pretty much a heavy armor dot meta. You can’t gank hardly anyone anymore. You can’t fight small groups because your damage isn’t high enough these days to fight a group of tanks. And you pushed the Zerg mentality that if you aren’t part of the Zerg that your utterly useless. Iv been playing this game since the very first day: exclusively on my one toon. Iv gone through buffs and nerfs and always adapting but I have to draw the line when you want to reward players for pressing a few buttons and letting dots do all the work. It’s time to bring back the skill required for the game. You shouldn’t be a new player to this game and be able to go into Cyrodil on a bashbuild and wipe out a whole seasoned group. You shouldn’t be able to throw up shields and take no damage while able to dish it out with impunity. You shouldn’t be a tank and able to out dps an actual dps.

SO TRUE...COMPLETELY AGREE!!!!!!

Starlock

But what about fashion design skill and creative skill, dude? How can you overlook that, man!

Lady_Rosabella

Shadowasrial wrote: »

For years now zenimax has been catering to the new players. Dumbing down skills. Watering down combat so that new players can be competitive to veteran players. I’m all for new players being able to defend themselves but your starting to let this grow into the point where you actually removing the need for skill in the game. It started with proc sets. It advanced with pay to win classes there was a time where wardens were so op in Cyrodil that 6 out of 10 players you came across we’re running one. Now you introduced the necromancer which made the old op warden look like a pushover. And now your pushing for a dot meta. This has got to stop. If your going to claim you want to balance the game then actually buff thing underperforming aspects and nerf over performing. People get so upset at dying in pvp that now it’s pretty much a heavy armor dot meta. You can’t gank hardly anyone anymore. You can’t fight small groups because your damage isn’t high enough these days to fight a group of tanks. And you pushed the Zerg mentality that if you aren’t part of the Zerg that your utterly useless. Iv been playing this game since the very first day: exclusively on my one toon. Iv gone through buffs and nerfs and always adapting but I have to draw the line when you want to reward players for pressing a few buttons and letting dots do all the work. It’s time to bring back the skill required for the game. You shouldn’t be a new player to this game and be able to go into Cyrodil on a bashbuild and wipe out a whole seasoned group. You shouldn’t be able to throw up shields and take no damage while able to dish it out with impunity. You shouldn’t be a tank and able to out dps an actual dps.

Totally agree with you. Hubby and I been playing since launch and have stuck with it through all the nerfs/buffs, race changes, skill changes, and everything else the ZOS throws at us while they try to figure out how to cater to the new players who will only stick with this game until the next new game comes along or until they run back to WOW. Hubby and I have paid to subscribe every month since July 4, 2014 and this last subscription we both paid for an entire year. We also have purchased a lot of Crowns in the past, but have stopped doing that as well, how many re-colored mounts or costumes does someone need? Our sub runs out in January and we both are at the point where we won't be giving them another $280 or putting anymore money into a game that is dumbing everything down and are more concerned with making every class, every race, and every player equal with no skill involved.

We are not the only ones, so many people who are loyal, long time ESO players are leaving this game. Almost every day we see long time friends/guildies throw up their hands and quit playing. There are numerous live streamer on Twitch and on Youtube that have made videos that they are leaving and in the comments on their videos hundreds of players agree and are leaving or have left already. But as long as people keep buying those recolored mounts and costumes and ZOS doesn't have to put money into server performance and just keep doing quick fixes by changing skills to reduce stress on their servers, the game will go on. Don't forget the interview with Matt Firor back in May where he states "Yeah. Not a lot of people have picked up on this, but if you look on our job site you’ll see that we are accepting applications for people to work on a new engine for a new triple-A game. So yes, we have ideas, but we’re committed to ESO for as long as it takes." What exactly does that mean, "for as long as it takes?" Once you get the new triple-A game up and running buh-bye ESO?

Kadoin

Patch after patch, they nerf anyone not using a cheese setup or doing something unique for "balance". It's quite sad, and very disappointing every time.

Sylosi

LOL, if the game were actually skilled in a meaningful sense, new players would not even face veterans, only in trash "PvP" like in ESO does that even happen.

Actual skilled games have MMR, matchmaking, leagues, etc, because that is how you get competitive PvP, which is the basis for skilled PvP and is what pushes the skill cap. (plus as an added bonus is what actually provides fun PvP)

Not guilds on Discord with a full cheese comp patting themselves on the back for beating some pugs half of which are not even in a group or some guy beating three players who have not even played the game a tenth as long combined and only zerg about so have minimal experience of smallscale, this is garbage PvP that only MMORPG baddies think is "skilled", to anyone decent it is a joke.

Which is why despite PvP games having millions and in some cases tens of millions of players, PvP fails miserably in MMORPGs. Of which ESO is a fine example, because most encounters are not competitive they are low skilled and dull, other than to a niche group of "PvPers" who aren't really bothered about actual good PvP or even fun PvP.

It is also why games like this get dumbed down, because Zenimax is left with an impossible situation, if you have new / casual players directly playing against experienced / hardcore players then you will end up with a dead game, which PvP has been for a long, long time. So if you are going to persist with that flawed model, then the best you can do is cater to the majority of your players and adjust the skill floor & ceiling accordingly.

So if you are still playing ESO as your main PvP game and think you are playing super skilled, quality PvP, then the truth is you are either so bad that you don't understand what a joke this game is as "skilled" PvP or you are simply deluding yourself that you are actually bothered about skilled PvP.

Wake up and smell the coffee.

KillsAllElves

Shadowasrial wrote: »

For years now zenimax has been catering to the new players. Dumbing down skills. Watering down combat so that new players can be competitive to veteran players. I’m all for new players being able to defend themselves but your starting to let this grow into the point where you actually removing the need for skill in the game. It started with proc sets. It advanced with pay to win classes there was a time where wardens were so op in Cyrodil that 6 out of 10 players you came across we’re running one. Now you introduced the necromancer which made the old op warden look like a pushover. And now your pushing for a dot meta. This has got to stop. If your going to claim you want to balance the game then actually buff thing underperforming aspects and nerf over performing. People get so upset at dying in pvp that now it’s pretty much a heavy armor dot meta. You can’t gank hardly anyone anymore. You can’t fight small groups because your damage isn’t high enough these days to fight a group of tanks. And you pushed the Zerg mentality that if you aren’t part of the Zerg that your utterly useless. Iv been playing this game since the very first day: exclusively on my one toon. Iv gone through buffs and nerfs and always adapting but I have to draw the line when you want to reward players for pressing a few buttons and letting dots do all the work. It’s time to bring back the skill required for the game. You shouldn’t be a new player to this game and be able to go into Cyrodil on a bashbuild and wipe out a whole seasoned group. You shouldn’t be able to throw up shields and take no damage while able to dish it out with impunity. You shouldn’t be a tank and able to out dps an actual dps.

Skill is irrelevant when a game has sets, weapons, abilities,classes, racial passives, food and potions which alter player performance.

No one is on an equal footing with their fellow gamers. Too many variables that out weighs adtual player skill.

The term balance gets thrown around like a used up blow up doll in a college dorm, balance in ESO gameplay can not exist.


Last part of your rant is an excellent point, Players should only be able to do one playstyle not all three combined. If you want to be a tank be a tank, if you want to heal be a healer if you want do damage be a dps. NO should be able to have high defense and heal themselves while dealing stupid damage. Certain classes who have high defense, high damage and high mobility further compounds the problem cyrodiil is plagued with= balance unachievable!

the ESO necromancer is a poorly thought out class and feels more like an illusionist, this class is definitely pay to win!

Kadoin

KillsAllElves wrote: »

Shadowasrial wrote: »

For years now zenimax has been catering to the new players. Dumbing down skills. Watering down combat so that new players can be competitive to veteran players. I’m all for new players being able to defend themselves but your starting to let this grow into the point where you actually removing the need for skill in the game. It started with proc sets. It advanced with pay to win classes there was a time where wardens were so op in Cyrodil that 6 out of 10 players you came across we’re running one. Now you introduced the necromancer which made the old op warden look like a pushover. And now your pushing for a dot meta. This has got to stop. If your going to claim you want to balance the game then actually buff thing underperforming aspects and nerf over performing. People get so upset at dying in pvp that now it’s pretty much a heavy armor dot meta. You can’t gank hardly anyone anymore. You can’t fight small groups because your damage isn’t high enough these days to fight a group of tanks. And you pushed the Zerg mentality that if you aren’t part of the Zerg that your utterly useless. Iv been playing this game since the very first day: exclusively on my one toon. Iv gone through buffs and nerfs and always adapting but I have to draw the line when you want to reward players for pressing a few buttons and letting dots do all the work. It’s time to bring back the skill required for the game. You shouldn’t be a new player to this game and be able to go into Cyrodil on a bashbuild and wipe out a whole seasoned group. You shouldn’t be able to throw up shields and take no damage while able to dish it out with impunity. You shouldn’t be a tank and able to out dps an actual dps.

Skill is irrelevant when a game has sets, weapons, abilities,classes, racial passives, food and potions which alter player performance.

No one is on an equal footing with their fellow gamers. Too many variables that out weighs adtual player skill.

The term balance gets thrown around like a used up blow up doll in a college dorm, balance in ESO gameplay can not exist.


Last part of your rant is an excellent point, Players should only be able to do one playstyle not all three combined. If you want to be a tank be a tank, if you want to heal be a healer if you want do damage be a dps. NO should be able to have high defense and heal themselves while dealing stupid damage. Certain classes who have high defense, high damage and high mobility further compounds the problem cyrodiil is plagued with= balance unachievable!

the ESO necromancer is a poorly thought out class and feels more like an illusionist, this class is definitely pay to win!

Oi, we can't say that! Shhh...

Now repeat after me: "This class is definitely play to win, this class is definitely play to win, this class is definitely play to win,..."

Ah, much better...!

MasterSpatula

One day, those of us who chose RPGs because we didn't have the reflexes to play "twitch"-style games will have nothing left to play.

jainiadral

Lordy. Is this another one of those "nerfs cater to unskilled and new players" threads? *headdesk*

Have you recently watched someone new struggle to kill single simple mobs in overland combat? They are *not* having an easy time of it at all. The last week, I've had lots of new players with near-empty health bars sidle up to me in delves and pace themselves with me to the boss. People seem to be having a harder time in newbie-land after this last patch.

When I first started last year, I really struggled with this game. Even before all the nerfs, this was one of the most difficult MMOs I've played. The classic newbie petsorc which was the only thing kept me playing has been nuked to the ground.

This is hardly "catering to new players."

idk

For years in PvP some people call for nerfs rather than rise to the occasion and figure out how to deal with what challenges them and others can handle just fine. The come up with excuses instead of figuring things out.

After a period of Zos bringing the game down to their level we can probably start calling this game ESWoW.

Idhendryon

jainiadral wrote: »

Lordy. Is this another one of those "nerfs cater to unskilled and new players" threads? *headdesk*

Have you recently watched someone new struggle to kill single simple mobs in overland combat? They are *not* having an easy time of it at all. The last week, I've had lots of new players with near-empty health bars sidle up to me in delves and pace themselves with me to the boss. People seem to be having a harder time in newbie-land after this last patch.

When I first started last year, I really struggled with this game. Even before all the nerfs, this was one of the most difficult MMOs I've played. The classic newbie petsorc which was the only thing kept me playing has been nuked to the ground.

This is hardly "catering to new players."

Yup, new players usually won't know much about the changes in the first place, don't pvp (which I think is what the OP is mostly talking about if I understand him correctly), and generally will still have problems with the game at first, because the combat style differs from many others MMOs, and you'll have issues even if you us specs termed to be easy. Afaik many of the "easy" things like shields and self heals got nerfed in this patch.

I'm also not sure if you can make a case that buffing general skill over class skills in many cases somehow caters to new players. I don't think as a new magsorc player for example it's immediately obvious to you that now you should priortizing getting your mage skill line up fast, because Entropy is now great.

I guess the soul stone skill now being good helps new players, because that might be something most slot. Although after I came back from a long hiatus I forgot about this thing altogether for the first few weeks. So who knows.

Shadowasrial

Someone earlier in the comments said you can’t have skill and balance when you have class skills sets potions foods racial abilities. I beg to differ. All of that allows for people to make unique builds. The problem lies in the fact that zenimax makes some sets that far outperform 90% of all other sets. And streamers make these cheese builds that do all the work for them and everyone eats it up.

There’s a lot that zenimax could do to balance the game. But constantly adding new powerful proc sets will eventually if they haven’t already kill sets meant to just flatly raise your stats

Luede

Jayman1000 wrote: »

This game is 80% gear/build 20% actual player skill. So yes, I do agree with you. More actual skill required less gear/build power.

no, 20% gear/build and 80% skill. u see this every day in pvp.

Ash_In_My_Sujamma

MasterSpatula wrote: »

One day, those of us who chose RPGs because we didn't have the reflexes to play "twitch"-style games will have nothing left to play.

I got you
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAGHT4FdeTc

barney2525

Hey, hey, hey now....

Now I gotta have Skill to be effective?

That's askin an awful lot, pal

jcm2606

MasterSpatula wrote: »

One day, those of us who chose RPGs because we didn't have the reflexes to play "twitch"-style games will have nothing left to play.

Then maybe stick with the other 90% of the game that doesn't require "twitch"-style gameplay? ESO has a vast amount of content for casual players.

You got hundreds of hours of questing at the least, a crafting system with hundreds upon hundreds of collectible gear styles, a housing system that's very closely intertwined with the crafting system, a fishing system with its own achievements and collectible loot, and more.

You've also got the guild finder, which you can use to find other like-minded guilds, at which point the possibilities are pretty much endless. Help other people do the above, participate in casual runs of group dungeons and trials, maybe participate in some casual PvP if you're interested, participate in events your guild may be running.

Tandor

Oh dear, someone's been killed by a n00b again !

Bosov

There are people who consider the dot meta skilled gameplay and calling placing a dot on someone who runs around a rock 'fighting back'.

Im afraid the combatsystem will be dumbed down even more in the future to a point where you can afk get kills. You still have to place a dot at the time.. maybe they will move to a meta where just slotting a skill will do dps for you. A bit like a petsorc.

Kosbert

Shadowasrial wrote: »

For years now zenimax has been catering to the new players. Dumbing down skills. Watering down combat so that new players can be competitive to veteran players. I’m all for new players being able to defend themselves but your starting to let this grow into the point where you actually removing the need for skill in the game. It started with proc sets. It advanced with pay to win classes there was a time where wardens were so op in Cyrodil that 6 out of 10 players you came across we’re running one. Now you introduced the necromancer which made the old op warden look like a pushover. And now your pushing for a dot meta. This has got to stop. If your going to claim you want to balance the game then actually buff thing underperforming aspects and nerf over performing. People get so upset at dying in pvp that now it’s pretty much a heavy armor dot meta. You can’t gank hardly anyone anymore. You can’t fight small groups because your damage isn’t high enough these days to fight a group of tanks. And you pushed the Zerg mentality that if you aren’t part of the Zerg that your utterly useless. Iv been playing this game since the very first day: exclusively on my one toon. Iv gone through buffs and nerfs and always adapting but I have to draw the line when you want to reward players for pressing a few buttons and letting dots do all the work. It’s time to bring back the skill required for the game. You shouldn’t be a new player to this game and be able to go into Cyrodil on a bashbuild and wipe out a whole seasoned group. You shouldn’t be able to throw up shields and take no damage while able to dish it out with impunity. You shouldn’t be a tank and able to out dps an actual dps.

So you can not roflstomp with your Brawler in Cyrodil all of the 12 Geode Cache Farmers, and you care just able to kill 8 of them ? Does that makes you look bad at your Pwnage Youtube Video ?