Blood Craze vs Structured Entropy - DoT standards are balanced, right?

nsmurfer

4k Weapon Damage, 40k Stamina vs 4k Spell Damage, 40k Magicka (zero CP tooltips)

Blood Craze - 16949 over 10 secs, 1641 heal every two secs for 10 secs. No additional benefit.
Has 5M range requiring to be close range application, dodgeable.
Structured Entropy - 25390 over 12 secs, 1641 heal every two secs for 12 secs. Gives Major Sorcery, 2% Mag Magicka, 2%Magicka Recovery, Empower.
Has 28M range to spam all you want, no initial hit to dodge.

Balanced, yeah right.

Insco851

Blood craze has an up front dmg component.

Masters DW.

Faster HA to weave with.

Cost?

Many things to take into account on this “balance”

Kadoin

Insco851 wrote: »

Blood craze has an up front dmg component.

Masters DW.

Faster HA to weave with.

Cost?

Many things to take into account on this “balance”

Stop. He's trying to build a narrative here...Just sit, watch, and popcorn.

nsmurfer

Insco851 wrote: »

Blood craze has an up front dmg component.

Masters DW.

Faster HA to weave with.

Cost?

Many things to take into account on this “balance”

didn't you guys complain that being locked to a single weapon needs a skill to be better during the Vigor vs RR debates. Cost of structured entropy and bloodcraze both has the standard dot cost.

Master Dw has nothing to do with this. That is liking comparing BRP Resto RR vs Vigor. If anything Master DW should take the damage of Blood Craze far beyond any other DoT, but since the update, Master DW+blood craze is required to get the same damage as ranged mag DoTs.

You can get channeled HAs for more reliable resource return as well as constant LAs at range in PvP, which is significant advantage. Also resource return per second of heavy is constant. Which means weapons with faster heavies restore less resource than weapons with slower heavies.

nsmurfer

Kadoin wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

Blood craze has an up front dmg component.

Masters DW.

Faster HA to weave with.

Cost?

Many things to take into account on this “balance”

Stop. He's trying to build a narrative here...Just sit, watch, and popcorn.

Except his arguments has nothing to do with the DoTs themselves, but compares DW to destro.

Vapirko

I’d have to agree with you. Trying not to be biased for stam I don’t see how these skills are balanced at all. Entropy just seems way over loaded currently. I have tried heavy armor again yet, but keeping off the dot damage in medium rn is really tough. It’s insanely hard to open an offensive window. What’s happening to me now is that I go to turn the fight and as I take the other person out, even though they’re not that good, those dots they have passively places on me very nearly rip my health away even as they’re going full defense. If I let my vigor drop I’m probably dead.

Insco851

nsmurfer wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

Blood craze has an up front dmg component.

Masters DW.

Faster HA to weave with.

Cost?

Many things to take into account on this “balance”

didn't you guys complain that being locked to a single weapon needs a skill to be better during the Vigor vs RR debates. Cost of structured entropy and bloodcraze both has the standard dot cost.

Master Dw has nothing to do with this. That is liking comparing BRP Resto RR vs Vigor. If anything Master DW should take the damage of Blood Craze far beyond any other DoT, but since the update, Master DW+blood craze is required to get the same damage as ranged mag DoTs.

You can get channeled HAs for more reliable resource return as well as constant LAs at range in PvP, which is significant advantage. Also resource return per second of heavy is constant. Which means weapons with faster heavies restore less resource than weapons with slower heavies.

And the upfront dmg? Real politician here.

For the record. Entropy does look overloaded. But come honest with how you are gonna build a case against it. This wasn’t it.

Synozeer

nsmurfer wrote: »

4k Weapon Damage, 40k Stamina vs 4k Spell Damage, 40k Magicka (zero CP tooltips)

Blood Craze - 16949 over 10 secs, 1641 heal every two secs for 10 secs. No additional benefit.
Has 5M range requiring to be close range application, dodgeable.
Structured Entropy - 25390 over 12 secs, 1641 heal every two secs for 12 secs. Gives Major Sorcery, 2% Mag Magicka, 2%Magicka Recovery, Empower.
Has 28M range to spam all you want, no initial hit to dodge.

Balanced, yeah right.

Entropy can be dodged. Blood Craze can proc weapon enchants and poisons, does 25% more damage at lower health, does 15% more damage vs CC'ed and immobilized enemies.

But I agree, Entropy is a strong skill. Not OP, just strong.

DUTCH_REAPER

All armors give a higher numbers to spell resistance through raw numbers and passives right? So technically even if the tool tip says that number it is automatically mitigated through higher spell resistances of a player. Unless your just trying to say they should be equal in damage which is biased since 5 piece medium increases damage right off the bat. Are you championing that 5 piece light also get increased damage to skills as well?

BRogueNZ

4k SD how common is that? 4k wd is pretty low too

Abhaya

My poison injection and soul splitting trap (the AOE one) both have 25k tooltips. I also have much better direct burst than mag builds. Tooltips don’t mean anything out of context and as someone else said stam can build much higher weapon damage than mag can.

MaxJrFTW

My blood craze has a 25k tooltip. Both are overtuned. Idk what you're trying to accomplish by posting made up tooltips.

Anyron

nsmurfer wrote: »

4k Weapon Damage, 40k Stamina vs 4k Spell Damage, 40k Magicka (zero CP tooltips)

Blood Craze - 16949 over 10 secs, 1641 heal every two secs for 10 secs. No additional benefit.
Has 5M range requiring to be close range application, dodgeable.
Structured Entropy - 25390 over 12 secs, 1641 heal every two secs for 12 secs. Gives Major Sorcery, 2% Mag Magicka, 2%Magicka Recovery, Empower.
Has 28M range to spam all you want, no initial hit to dodge.

Balanced, yeah right.

Btw entropy is dodgeable on live.. Every tick

MaxJrFTW

Anyron wrote: »

nsmurfer wrote: »

4k Weapon Damage, 40k Stamina vs 4k Spell Damage, 40k Magicka (zero CP tooltips)

Blood Craze - 16949 over 10 secs, 1641 heal every two secs for 10 secs. No additional benefit.
Has 5M range requiring to be close range application, dodgeable.
Structured Entropy - 25390 over 12 secs, 1641 heal every two secs for 12 secs. Gives Major Sorcery, 2% Mag Magicka, 2%Magicka Recovery, Empower.
Has 28M range to spam all you want, no initial hit to dodge.

Balanced, yeah right.

Btw entropy is dodgeable on live.. Every tick

Stop posting this. Nobody is wasting 3.6k stam to dodge entropy.

Zevrro

Not sure how these can be compared. One is melee range and requires specific weapons to use whilst the other just requires a guild skill line to be leveled.

No idea what they were thinking with entropy.

Oakmontowls_ESO

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Anyron wrote: »

nsmurfer wrote: »

4k Weapon Damage, 40k Stamina vs 4k Spell Damage, 40k Magicka (zero CP tooltips)

Blood Craze - 16949 over 10 secs, 1641 heal every two secs for 10 secs. No additional benefit.
Has 5M range requiring to be close range application, dodgeable.
Structured Entropy - 25390 over 12 secs, 1641 heal every two secs for 12 secs. Gives Major Sorcery, 2% Mag Magicka, 2%Magicka Recovery, Empower.
Has 28M range to spam all you want, no initial hit to dodge.

Balanced, yeah right.

Btw entropy is dodgeable on live.. Every tick

Stop posting this. Nobody is wasting 3.6k stam to dodge entropy.

but I thought it was so op?

WuffyCerulei

But...stam pulls more than mag...ya see to forget that.

Kel

Played some battlegrounds earlier.

Noticed more than a few stamina build using soul trap as well as entropy.

That's how you should know this is whack...

Mayrael

Usual stamina build for PvP is something around 35k stamina, 5,5k weapon damage and 2,5-3k Stam regen (CP) now show me build with such power for magicka. It seems that skills are balanced around potential power that's why blood Craze is weaker because when you put on Masters it becames stronger than entropy same situation we can see with destruction reach/clench and few drinks this patch - because there are sets that synergies to good with them - I'm not saying it's good but it's seems to be the pattern. And if you want to fight like "which skill is going to have bigger tooltip overall" I'm not sure entropy would win - stamina has much bigger damage potential.

And somehow in Cyrodiil blood craze on my death recaps usually hits harder than even entropy, wonder why?

Anyron

nsmurfer wrote: »

4k Weapon Damage, 40k Stamina vs 4k Spell Damage, 40k Magicka (zero CP tooltips)

Blood Craze - 16949 over 10 secs, 1641 heal every two secs for 10 secs. No additional benefit.
Has 5M range requiring to be close range application, dodgeable.
Structured Entropy - 25390 over 12 secs, 1641 heal every two secs for 12 secs. Gives Major Sorcery, 2% Mag Magicka, 2%Magicka Recovery, Empower.
Has 28M range to spam all you want, no initial hit to dodge.

Balanced, yeah right.

You added +2% max mag +mag regen from mages guild passives but no dual wield passives.. I wonder why..

So Edit your post with:
Increases the damage with Dual Wield abilities by 20% against enemies under 25% Health
Increases the Weapon Damage by 6% of off-hand weapon's damage (aka more weapon damage)
Gives you a 15% damage bonus when attacking stunned, immobilized, disoriented, or silenced enemies
Grants a bonus based on the type of weapon equipped

As you can see now, blood craze gives you now even more than Entropy

BUFF ENTROPY

OtarTheMad

The way I am thinking, some stamina players will adapt and learn to counter these new DoT abilities and then stamina will stand tall again.

I was fighting some stamina players yesterday and they'd purge my DoTs and just almost burst me down in two shots, stamina will always have the potential to hit much harder. Magicka players, usually, have to run 5 LA, that puts us at a disadvantage.

Mayrael

Anyron wrote: »

nsmurfer wrote: »

4k Weapon Damage, 40k Stamina vs 4k Spell Damage, 40k Magicka (zero CP tooltips)

Blood Craze - 16949 over 10 secs, 1641 heal every two secs for 10 secs. No additional benefit.
Has 5M range requiring to be close range application, dodgeable.
Structured Entropy - 25390 over 12 secs, 1641 heal every two secs for 12 secs. Gives Major Sorcery, 2% Mag Magicka, 2%Magicka Recovery, Empower.
Has 28M range to spam all you want, no initial hit to dodge.

Balanced, yeah right.

You added +2% max mag +mag regen from mages guild passives but no dual wield passives.. I wonder why..

So Edit your post with:
Increases the damage with Dual Wield abilities by 20% against enemies under 25% Health
Increases the Weapon Damage by 6% of off-hand weapon's damage (aka more weapon damage)
Gives you a 15% damage bonus when attacking stunned, immobilized, disoriented, or silenced enemies
Grants a bonus based on the type of weapon equipped

As you can see now, blood craze gives you now even more than Entropy

BUFF ENTROPY

You forget about initial hit

Rake

Mayrael wrote: »

Usual stamina build for PvP is something around 35k stamina, 5,5k weapon damage and 2,5-3k Stam regen (CP) now show me build with such power for magicka. It seems that skills are balanced around potential power that's why blood Craze is weaker because when you put on Masters it becames stronger than entropy same situation we can see with destruction reach/clench and few drinks this patch - because there are sets that synergies to good with them - I'm not saying it's good but it's seems to be the pattern. And if you want to fight like "which skill is going to have bigger tooltip overall" I'm not sure entropy would win - stamina has much bigger damage potential.

And somehow in Cyrodiil blood craze on my death recaps usually hits harder than even entropy, wonder why?

Post such build

xylena_lazarow

Ranged abilities should not be matching (or exceeding) the strength of analogous melee abilities.

If the higher risk of melee abilities isn't met with a higher reward, you might as well delete melee from the game and give us assault rifles instead.

ChunkyCat

bazookas ftw

Mayrael

Rake wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Usual stamina build for PvP is something around 35k stamina, 5,5k weapon damage and 2,5-3k Stam regen (CP) now show me build with such power for magicka. It seems that skills are balanced around potential power that's why blood Craze is weaker because when you put on Masters it becames stronger than entropy same situation we can see with destruction reach/clench and few drinks this patch - because there are sets that synergies to good with them - I'm not saying it's good but it's seems to be the pattern. And if you want to fight like "which skill is going to have bigger tooltip overall" I'm not sure entropy would win - stamina has much bigger damage potential.

And somehow in Cyrodiil blood craze on my death recaps usually hits harder than even entropy, wonder why?

Post such build

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7UBMmDMfJDE

Now your turn for magicka one, I'm waiting.

mairwen85

Mayrael wrote: »

Rake wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Usual stamina build for PvP is something around 35k stamina, 5,5k weapon damage and 2,5-3k Stam regen (CP) now show me build with such power for magicka. It seems that skills are balanced around potential power that's why blood Craze is weaker because when you put on Masters it becames stronger than entropy same situation we can see with destruction reach/clench and few drinks this patch - because there are sets that synergies to good with them - I'm not saying it's good but it's seems to be the pattern. And if you want to fight like "which skill is going to have bigger tooltip overall" I'm not sure entropy would win - stamina has much bigger damage potential.

And somehow in Cyrodiil blood craze on my death recaps usually hits harder than even entropy, wonder why?

Post such build

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7UBMmDMfJDE

Now your turn for magicka one, I'm waiting.

Drop mic + gauntlet

Derra

I like the part where dw passives are completely ignored while mages guild are not.

Bloodcraze heal scales 10% stronger than structured entropy.
Both have similar dmg scaling (albeit with entropy lasting 2 second longer resulting in similar dps but higher total dmg).
Bloodcraze has 20% dmg bonus in execute range and 15% dmg bonus against cced or otherwise impaired targets.

Then you still have the option to equip master DW - which DOES put bloodcraze way beyond entropys dmg potential (8000 to 11000 tooltip dmg increase).



If you want to make an argument about skills being subpar without their ability altering weapon look at healing ward/ward ally. That skill is absolutely useless without brp resto.
Bloodcraze is not. It´s still a decent skill.
Is entropy overall better? A bit - but i wouldn´t label that problematic when you look at how much better for example PI is than destro reach. There are inequalities both ways.

susmitds

Mayrael wrote: »

Rake wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Usual stamina build for PvP is something around 35k stamina, 5,5k weapon damage and 2,5-3k Stam regen (CP) now show me build with such power for magicka. It seems that skills are balanced around potential power that's why blood Craze is weaker because when you put on Masters it becames stronger than entropy same situation we can see with destruction reach/clench and few drinks this patch - because there are sets that synergies to good with them - I'm not saying it's good but it's seems to be the pattern. And if you want to fight like "which skill is going to have bigger tooltip overall" I'm not sure entropy would win - stamina has much bigger damage potential.

And somehow in Cyrodiil blood craze on my death recaps usually hits harder than even entropy, wonder why?

Post such build

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7UBMmDMfJDE

Now your turn for magicka one, I'm waiting.

That's a standard stamblade build with three damage sets.

Spriggan+Truth+MasterBow+Bloodspawn. You can replace Truth with any other damage set for similar stats. Also those stats shown are at maximum buff, of which more than 1k buffed weapon damage is coming from Master Bow+infused Berserker. It is essentially a glass canon build with zero resists at base, and will get destroyed in seconds against organized enemies.

Spinner+Spell Strategist+infused BRP resto+Bloodspawn is the closest mirror version available and is actually pretty good on Magblade.

Also that build will only work on Stamblade and no other stamina class due to its glass canon nature. No other stamina class can get away with 11k resists and usually have far lesser regen.

Essentially all Stamblade builds over the last few years are variants on the same build - Spriggan+Master Bow+Bloodspawn+X

Replace X with whatever - Shacklebreaker, Hunding, 7th legion, Bone Pirate, Shadow Walker, etc.

Masel

When you look at the base damage without any passives, they are both in line.

Looking at tooltips with base stats, no skills or buffs whatsoever, both have roughly a 2k tooltip, taking into account the initial hit of rending slashes. Interestingly you choose blood craze, which is the healing morph at the loss of initial damage.


Entropy generally does more damage per cast because of the added 2s dot time, adding proportionally more total damage to the skill because it makes the dot last longer at same strength. I actually think that entropy is a bit strong here in sheer damage per cast, but not by a long shot. Dual wield passives are more powerful than mages guild, so it will likely even that out already.
Also dont forget that twin slashes has two initial hits that may proc many sets that entropy does not.

Mayrael

susmitds wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Rake wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Usual stamina build for PvP is something around 35k stamina, 5,5k weapon damage and 2,5-3k Stam regen (CP) now show me build with such power for magicka. It seems that skills are balanced around potential power that's why blood Craze is weaker because when you put on Masters it becames stronger than entropy same situation we can see with destruction reach/clench and few drinks this patch - because there are sets that synergies to good with them - I'm not saying it's good but it's seems to be the pattern. And if you want to fight like "which skill is going to have bigger tooltip overall" I'm not sure entropy would win - stamina has much bigger damage potential.

And somehow in Cyrodiil blood craze on my death recaps usually hits harder than even entropy, wonder why?

Post such build

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7UBMmDMfJDE

Now your turn for magicka one, I'm waiting.

That's a standard stamblade build with three damage sets.

Spriggan+Truth+MasterBow+Bloodspawn. You can replace Truth with any other damage set for similar stats. Also those stats shown are at maximum buff, of which more than 1k buffed weapon damage is coming from Master Bow+infused Berserker. It is essentially a glass canon build with zero resists at base, and will get destroyed in seconds against organized enemies.

Spinner+Spell Strategist+infused BRP resto+Bloodspawn is the closest mirror version available and is actually pretty good on Magblade.

Also that build will only work on Stamblade and no other stamina class due to its glass canon nature. No other stamina class can get away with 11k resists and usually have far lesser regen.

Essentially all Stamblade builds over the last few years are variants on the same build - Spriggan+Master Bow+Bloodspawn+X

Replace X with whatever - Shacklebreaker, Hunding, 7th legion, Bone Pirate, Shadow Walker, etc.

Few points on your response.
1. Magicka has no replacement for master bow, not even close.
2. Spell strategist gives you buff vs one enmy and this buff isn't affected by minor/major sorcery, it doesn't increase your healing. It's not comparable with raw spell damage added to character sheet.
3. Did you tried to play magicka with 3 damage sets and none sustain? Try it, all magicka skills are more expensive some of them way above standard 15%. Not to mention stamina issues for cc breaking (these are more or less irrelevant in CP but noCP... Oh dude...)
4. Just show us the stats, posting random 3 sets proves nothing.