A thought on refocusing PvE

SassiestAssassin

Obviously this is from my limited perspective, so take with a grain of salt. But I think PvE needs to refocus on teamwork instead of damage dealing.

Replace SOME one-shots with massive (but heal-able) hits that require healers to get groups back up to full health really fast, or add poisoning mechanics (like hm DS2, but unskippable) that healers have to pull their teammates through.

Tie self-healing buffs into Battle Spirit, leave them low enough outside PvP that DDs can’t heal through heal checks. Maybe put a soft cap on damage so there is no mechanic skipping (use Battle Spirit again to remove cap for PvP. Idk, I don’t have an opinion about PvP, so I’m not suggesting PvE changes to take affect there.

If healing was needed, more people might make healers, and help alleviate the long DD queues.

Also, we seriously need something to make tanking more popular (since it seems queues always get hung up waiting for a tank.)

Edit for clarification: this is mainly about dungeons. I think they should reflect the amount of teamwork needed for trials.

DjMuscleboy02

How do you design trial mechanics that appease both people with 600k+ group DPS and 200k- group DPS? Unskippable mechanics turn into things like Ibomez the Fleshsculptor in Imperial City Prison.

SassiestAssassin

I mean, I’m guessing the level designers didn’t intend for things to be skipped.
These changes wouldn’t make massive DPS groups happy, I’m sure.

Also I’m not sure what you mean by Ibomez being unskippable, I’ve been with groups that skipped the zombie bombing part?

magictucktuck

SassiestAssassin wrote: »

Obviously this is from my limited perspective, so take with a grain of salt. But I think PvE needs to refocus on teamwork instead of damage dealing.

Replace SOME one-shots with massive (but heal-able) hits that require healers to get groups back up to full health really fast, or add poisoning mechanics (like hm DS2, but unskippable) that healers have to pull their teammates through.

Tie self-healing buffs into Battle Spirit, leave them low enough outside PvP that DDs can’t heal through heal checks. Maybe put a soft cap on damage so there is no mechanic skipping (use Battle Spirit again to remove cap for PvP. Idk, I don’t have an opinion about PvP, so I’m not suggesting PvE changes to take affect there.

If healing was needed, more people might make healers, and help alleviate the long DD queues.

Also, we seriously need something to make tanking more popular (since it seems queues always get hung up waiting for a tank.)

I love tanking, but 90 percent of the time I tank I get light attacking DPS with 0 ground dots and so i have to switch to DPS with a taunt or the most basic of dungeons become DLC dungeons... and if its anything more than basic its undoable.. so I have a feeling other tanks have felt the same way so its not that tanking is not fun its just back to the skill gap argument which IDK how they would fix without ruining the game for good players.

Camb0Sl1ce

Every end game pve player puts a lot of time and effort into mastering rotations and pumping out big damage, i practice daily and even small increases something as small as 55.1 to 55.4 feels good. The idea of capped damage is bad imo, it would be like reaching a point and then say "well thats it i dont have to put any more effort in".

snarkomatic

Camb0Sl1ce wrote: »

Every end game pve player puts a lot of time and effort into mastering rotations and pumping out big damage, i practice daily and even small increases something as small as 55.1 to 55.4 feels good. The idea of capped damage is bad imo, it would be like reaching a point and then say "well thats it i dont have to put any more effort in".

I think you misunderstand the concept of soft caps. It isn't a hard cap on overall damage; it would not prevent you from hitting over one arbitrarily chosen number no matter how well you played.

Soft caps exist to encourage build diversity at an individual level. If crit past xx% becomes irrelevant, then people dump what's left over into defensive or support stats/gear/etc. instead. It's a way to curve power creep, by making it more difficult than is worthwhile to achieve. This (in theory) slows down DPS, and thus forces people to experience mechanics through that.

Not really supporting it or arguing against it, but clarifying -- because it isn't capped damage per se, really .. it's more like encouraging the rerouting of those hard damage numbers into other things.

AcadianPaladin

Honestly, though I main a healer (unlikely after the next update though), I believe 'fixing the trilogy' has gone so far off the rails that we may be better off to not care and simply run dungeons with 4 players that are built to run solo content (some survivability, self-heals & damage).

Here is how my healer and tank see things:

The proposed current batch of healing changes will retire me from healing. Any 'fixes' I've heard to make healers 'relevant' boil down to gutting my ability as a healer to run solo content. Running solo content is more important to me than healing a group if it is a choice.

A very big part of a tank's job is to grab and hold the boss & some minions in one spot so the dd's ground AoEs can form a devastating killing zone. The proposed update basically replaces ground AoE lethality with ranged single target DoT lethality which means if a boss and his minions are running all around, who cares? The sturdiest dd can kite the boss while everyone pours on their ranged single target DoTs that don't require the boss to stay put. My DK tank is already not impressed with tanking (bosses who ignore taunt, CC immunity, etc). Losing the importance of holding a boss still will push me further from that role as well.

Camb0Sl1ce

snarkomatic wrote: »

Camb0Sl1ce wrote: »

Every end game pve player puts a lot of time and effort into mastering rotations and pumping out big damage, i practice daily and even small increases something as small as 55.1 to 55.4 feels good. The idea of capped damage is bad imo, it would be like reaching a point and then say "well thats it i dont have to put any more effort in".

I think you misunderstand the concept of soft caps. It isn't a hard cap on overall damage; it would not prevent you from hitting over one arbitrarily chosen number no matter how well you played.

Soft caps exist to encourage build diversity at an individual level. If crit past xx% becomes irrelevant, then people dump what's left over into defensive or support stats/gear/etc. instead. It's a way to curve power creep, by making it more difficult than is worthwhile to achieve. This (in theory) slows down DPS, and thus forces people to experience mechanics through that.

Not really supporting it or arguing against it, but clarifying -- because it isn't capped damage per se, really .. it's more like encouraging the rerouting of those hard damage numbers into other things.

With that idea if I hit the cap for spell damage, crit, max stat etc. then i believe that would further push support roles away, if im capped in my respective stats and i choose to go with more healing or resistances through either sets or cp why do i need support?

SassiestAssassin

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I believe 'fixing the trilogy' has gone so far off the rails that we may be better off to not care and simply run dungeons with 4 players that are built to run solo content (some survivability, self-heals & damage.

Honestly, with how things are shaping up to be, that sounds like more fun. Avoiding PUGs and just running with other competent friends.

It does make me sad to lose pure support though.

AcadianPaladin

SassiestAssassin wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I believe 'fixing the trilogy' has gone so far off the rails that we may be better off to not care and simply run dungeons with 4 players that are built to run solo content (some survivability, self-heals & damage.

Honestly, with how things are shaping up to be, that sounds like more fun. Avoiding PUGs and just running with other competent friends.

It does make me sad to lose pure support though.

I agree except I favor pugs because I don't like the 'commitment' that guilds/friends imply. I hate being interrupted in the middle of questing or such by requests. In fairness, I meticulously avoid asking for help as well. Pugs solve that for me. It has been suggested having the ability to select your type of group for pugs ('classic trilogy group' or 'any 4 characters group').

I too will miss healing. My elf really had the heart and nature for it - but only if she could also comfortably solo things with plenty of damage. Given a choice, she'll take the ability to kill and survive solo over a healer who requires others for damage.

My tank was simply a tool to fully experience that role so my healer would know how to better support tanks. Because a tank struggles with solo damage (not going to change sets depending on task - nope, not ever) I never really warmed to the role.

It seems to me the complexities of trying balance PvP, PvE, soloists and group PvE roles is beyond trying to resolve. Given those disparate interests, my primary love/focus/priority is solo PvE.

snarkomatic

Camb0Sl1ce wrote: »

snarkomatic wrote: »

Camb0Sl1ce wrote: »

Every end game pve player puts a lot of time and effort into mastering rotations and pumping out big damage, i practice daily and even small increases something as small as 55.1 to 55.4 feels good. The idea of capped damage is bad imo, it would be like reaching a point and then say "well thats it i dont have to put any more effort in".

I think you misunderstand the concept of soft caps. It isn't a hard cap on overall damage; it would not prevent you from hitting over one arbitrarily chosen number no matter how well you played.

Soft caps exist to encourage build diversity at an individual level. If crit past xx% becomes irrelevant, then people dump what's left over into defensive or support stats/gear/etc. instead. It's a way to curve power creep, by making it more difficult than is worthwhile to achieve. This (in theory) slows down DPS, and thus forces people to experience mechanics through that.

Not really supporting it or arguing against it, but clarifying -- because it isn't capped damage per se, really .. it's more like encouraging the rerouting of those hard damage numbers into other things.

With that idea if I hit the cap for spell damage, crit, max stat etc. then i believe that would further push support roles away, if im capped in my respective stats and i choose to go with more healing or resistances through either sets or cp why do i need support?

Because, in the theoretical application of soft caps, you cannot out-DPS mechanics. You need support because you have to fight the whole fight. It's honestly probably way beyond possible to implement in ESO ... but that's the idea of the thing.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

SassiestAssassin wrote: »

I mean, I’m guessing the level designers didn’t intend for things to be skipped.
These changes wouldn’t make massive DPS groups happy, I’m sure.

Also I’m not sure what you mean by Ibomez being unskippable, I’ve been with groups that skipped the zombie bombing part?

Groups with High DPS dont need to bomb zombies as their cleave damage will nuke anything that spawns. That said, you ever do the fight with 3 DPS each doing 50k+? It's a lot of hurry up and wait, and very very boring. I think that is the point they were making. This is a fight that basically "forces" the mechanic by making the boss invulnerable. Now there are certainly other ways to force mechanics, but this does not seem to be the best way of doing it IMO.

SassiestAssassin

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

SassiestAssassin wrote: »

I mean, I’m guessing the level designers didn’t intend for things to be skipped.
These changes wouldn’t make massive DPS groups happy, I’m sure.

Also I’m not sure what you mean by Ibomez being unskippable, I’ve been with groups that skipped the zombie bombing part?

Groups with High DPS dont need to bomb zombies as their cleave damage will nuke anything that spawns. That said, you ever do the fight with 3 DPS each doing 50k+? It's a lot of hurry up and wait, and very very boring. I think that is the point they were making. This is a fight that basically "forces" the mechanic by making the boss invulnerable. Now there are certainly other ways to force mechanics, but this does not seem to be the best way of doing it IMO.

Okay, I get what that means now, thanks. I don't have a good answer for it, and I"m guessing ZOS doesn't either.

kringled_1

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

SassiestAssassin wrote: »

I mean, I’m guessing the level designers didn’t intend for things to be skipped.
These changes wouldn’t make massive DPS groups happy, I’m sure.

Also I’m not sure what you mean by Ibomez being unskippable, I’ve been with groups that skipped the zombie bombing part?

Groups with High DPS dont need to bomb zombies as their cleave damage will nuke anything that spawns. That said, you ever do the fight with 3 DPS each doing 50k+? It's a lot of hurry up and wait, and very very boring. I think that is the point they were making. This is a fight that basically "forces" the mechanic by making the boss invulnerable. Now there are certainly other ways to force mechanics, but this does not seem to be the best way of doing it IMO.

If you let him get that far, then yes. There's enough of a delay from the start of the fight to when he goes to the pool that you can nuke him before a zombie ever appears. I'm actually surprised you haven't seen that, or maybe you just weren't thinking of that possibility?

Runefang

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

SassiestAssassin wrote: »

I mean, I’m guessing the level designers didn’t intend for things to be skipped.
These changes wouldn’t make massive DPS groups happy, I’m sure.

Also I’m not sure what you mean by Ibomez being unskippable, I’ve been with groups that skipped the zombie bombing part?

Groups with High DPS dont need to bomb zombies as their cleave damage will nuke anything that spawns. That said, you ever do the fight with 3 DPS each doing 50k+? It's a lot of hurry up and wait, and very very boring. I think that is the point they were making. This is a fight that basically "forces" the mechanic by making the boss invulnerable. Now there are certainly other ways to force mechanics, but this does not seem to be the best way of doing it IMO.

I still find that approach less frustrating than the "let's make the boss bounce around the room" approach that means you have chase them dropping ground dots over and over again. If there's one good thing about the new mag meta is almost all the dots will stick and these bosses are going to die soooo much faster.

Wifeaggro13

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

How do you design trial mechanics that appease both people with 600k+ group DPS and 200k- group DPS? Unskippable mechanics turn into things like Ibomez the Fleshsculptor in Imperial City Prison.

Um ya what's wrong with that encounter is awesome. Really what is so fun about stack and burn mehanics? Eso put way touch focus on dps. Leader boards are all bout avoiding mechanics with overwhelming dps . In all honesty eric worbel screwed combat up to the point of no return. Zos cant unwind this not. It's why we keep getting landscape with no actual emerging game systems. Eso is a plethora of unfinished ideas.

Camb0Sl1ce

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

How do you design trial mechanics that appease both people with 600k+ group DPS and 200k- group DPS? Unskippable mechanics turn into things like Ibomez the Fleshsculptor in Imperial City Prison.

Um ya what's wrong with that encounter is awesome. Really what is so fun about stack and burn mehanics? Eso put way touch focus on dps. Leader boards are all bout avoiding mechanics with overwhelming dps . In all honesty eric worbel screwed combat up to the point of no return. Zos cant unwind this not. It's why we keep getting landscape with no actual emerging game systems. Eso is a plethora of unfinished ideas.

What's fun about stack and burn? Well I'll tell ya, it means that the group knows where to stand what to do and when to drop ults, tanks know how to position adds and the dps are able to nuke, that's what fun about stack and burn. When groups play together a lot they pride themselves on there nukes, you have leads calling out what to focus and when Dps take pride in thr damage they distribute. Honestly if you're a dd and you don't want to push yourself you shouldn't even involve yourself.

Wifeaggro13

Camb0Sl1ce wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

How do you design trial mechanics that appease both people with 600k+ group DPS and 200k- group DPS? Unskippable mechanics turn into things like Ibomez the Fleshsculptor in Imperial City Prison.

Um ya what's wrong with that encounter is awesome. Really what is so fun about stack and burn mehanics? Eso put way touch focus on dps. Leader boards are all bout avoiding mechanics with overwhelming dps . In all honesty eric worbel screwed combat up to the point of no return. Zos cant unwind this not. It's why we keep getting landscape with no actual emerging game systems. Eso is a plethora of unfinished ideas.

What's fun about stack and burn? Well I'll tell ya, it means that the group knows where to stand what to do and when to drop ults, tanks know how to position adds and the dps are able to nuke, that's what fun about stack and burn. When groups play together a lot they pride themselves on there nukes, you have leads calling out what to focus and when Dps take pride in thr damage they distribute. Honestly if you're a dd and you don't want to push yourself you shouldn't even involve yourself.

This game by far is the easiest game as far as tank and healing mechanics are concerned, utility is non existent its just secondary effects of other abilites. there is no agro table, there are no pulling trechniques and for the most part its just gather em up and aoe. its very rudimentary. DPS on the other hand is a skilled role it requires lots of practice knowledge of builds meta's and synergies. Ive tanked just about everything up to Vmol . this game missed the mark for true group play its mostly DPS races with indviduals competeing for the highest number. Not saying their is not cordination and mechanic managing. its just all focused on DPS rarely does the tank need to apply old school skioll like pullling techniques, LOS and CC managment. its just big DPS numbers and avoid puddles.MAny people who play other roles then DPS are complaining about the games design and dynamic....

Runefang

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Camb0Sl1ce wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

How do you design trial mechanics that appease both people with 600k+ group DPS and 200k- group DPS? Unskippable mechanics turn into things like Ibomez the Fleshsculptor in Imperial City Prison.

Um ya what's wrong with that encounter is awesome. Really what is so fun about stack and burn mehanics? Eso put way touch focus on dps. Leader boards are all bout avoiding mechanics with overwhelming dps . In all honesty eric worbel screwed combat up to the point of no return. Zos cant unwind this not. It's why we keep getting landscape with no actual emerging game systems. Eso is a plethora of unfinished ideas.

What's fun about stack and burn? Well I'll tell ya, it means that the group knows where to stand what to do and when to drop ults, tanks know how to position adds and the dps are able to nuke, that's what fun about stack and burn. When groups play together a lot they pride themselves on there nukes, you have leads calling out what to focus and when Dps take pride in thr damage they distribute. Honestly if you're a dd and you don't want to push yourself you shouldn't even involve yourself.

This game by far is the easiest game as far as tank and healing mechanics are concerned, utility is non existent its just secondary effects of other abilites. there is no agro table, there are no pulling trechniques and for the most part its just gather em up and aoe. its very rudimentary. DPS on the other hand is a skilled role it requires lots of practice knowledge of builds meta's and synergies. Ive tanked just about everything up to Vmol . this game missed the mark for true group play its mostly DPS races with indviduals competeing for the highest number. Not saying their is not cordination and mechanic managing. its just all focused on DPS rarely does the tank need to apply old school skioll like pullling techniques, LOS and CC managment. its just big DPS numbers and avoid puddles.MAny people who play other roles then DPS are complaining about the games design and dynamic....

Even DPS players are complaining about the design and dynamic. We definitely don't enjoy playing a single style of DPS regardless of class or resource type.

idk

I am not sure who OP raids with but team everyone I have raided with for years is all about teamwork. We must work together for a common goal though we all have our assigned roles, go through portal or whatever.

WrathOfInnos

Sunspire did a pretty good job of addressing these issues. Lokkestiiz has a single target heal check mechanic, and Nahvintaas has a group heal check. All the bosses are designed with a ridiculous amount of health so that nobody can skip the mechanics, and positioning is very important.

I guess more dungeons could follow this model, as long as it does not become an Ibomez situation, where half the fight is waiting for the health bar to reappear.

The 2nd to last boss in DoM actually has an interesting healer check as well, where healing the NPC sufficiently prevents enemies from shielding, therefore reducing the amount of damage the DPS need to do.

seratin

SassiestAssassin wrote: »

Obviously this is from my limited perspective, so take with a grain of salt. But I think PvE needs to refocus on teamwork instead of damage dealing.

I wouldn't mind seeing alternate win conditions that reward things other than raw dps. Perhaps a reverse enrage system where a boss gets fatigued and easier to handle as the battle goes on. Something that rewards clever builds even if they aren't meta.

SassiestAssassin

idk wrote: »

I am not sure who OP raids with but team everyone I have raided with for years is all about teamwork. We must work together for a common goal though we all have our assigned roles, go through portal or whatever.

@idk You’re right, I was mainly thinking in terms of dungeons. Trials are excellent for teamwork, very rewarding when your team works together

WuffyCerulei

Damage caps won’t work on mechanics where the group HAS to burn the boss to avoid multiple adds, i.e. HoF bosses or Iron atros on Yolnahkriin in Sunspire. And weak self heals would make solo gameplay undesirable. Most people don’t do vet trials or hardcore dlc dungeons. One-shots shouldn't be so integral on mechanics either. Some shouldn’t just be removed. Most should be. Some high damage dealt by bosses are made for tanks to take, and that’s fine. But one-shots are a huge pain for healers, as there’s no point in healing when people are deleted in 1 hit.