CP Rework: Remove Combat Passives, Add QoL Perks

Vercingetorix

Since gear is currently tied to CP, gear would be need to be re-scaled to cap at level 50. That is, any gear that is CP 10-160 would be converted to level 50. Champion points would no longer exist on gear. Most CP crafting mats would be be retired, with CP160 mats being scaled as the new "level 50" mat. Legacy mats can be sold by vets to vendors for some gold and the non-legacy mats that remain can continue to have use to you.

I think that Champion Points can exist, but can only confer strictly non-combat bonuses like "harvest node bonus" or "reduced armor repair cost".
The goal would be to remove and replace:
- damage buffs that are present in the blue trees
- sustain buffs/debuffs in the green trees
- defense buffs in the red trees
(Yes, I am aware of the fact that this basically means nearly every CP node gets replaced. If anything, this highlights the power creep issue in ESO.)

By getting rid of these CP combat bonuses, the dps and survival of players will be decreased back to near-mortal levels, encouraging different gear sets for survival or damage. For example, Impregnable Armor set will have a lot more value when players can no longer stack Resistant in the Steed tree, so a trade-off between damage and defense will have to be made! DPS players will likely have to consider a sustain set instead of only stacking damage if they want to be relevant in longer boss fights. This would be a healthy change for both PvE and PvP. Some trials may need some of their encounters re-tooled in order to account for the sudden loss of power among players, but that would be it.

Replacement nodes can focus on QoL improvements that a veteran of the game can appreciate and a newcomer can be encouraged to get.
Here's some examples:
- % increased gold from quests
- % chance to ignore armor damage upon death
- % increased movement speed while outside of combat
- very small % chance for an improvement mat (Wax, Temp, Rosin, Plating) to drop from a resource node
- very small % chance for double loot from killing a dungeon or trial monster (includes bosses)

In these examples, some of the more lucrative nodes would be put in the same tree so players have to make a meaningful trade-off with a limited number of points to spend. Even if you disagree with these specific node suggestions, that's ok because the focus here is to change the nodes in a way that is engaging and useful to the player without directly improving their damage or defenses. The end result is that CP rank should indicate dedication and time put into the game - NOT your power level, no matter what aspect of the game you play.

frostz417

Increased gold from quest, increased loot and resource nodes. Lmao what a joke. Not all of us are role players so these changes are absolutely atrocious.

Only rework I’d care for is one that was suggested about making everything flat values and having special trees. I don’t recall what the exact thread was.

rotaugen454

If they did this and didn’t adjust dungeon difficulty, even fewer people would be able to complete vet DLC dungeons or trials. It would become even more elitist than it already is.

Vercingetorix

frostz417 wrote: »

Increased gold from quest, increased loot and resource nodes. Lmao what a joke. Not all of us are role players so these changes are absolutely atrocious.

Only rework I’d care for is one that was suggested about making everything flat values and having special trees. I don’t recall what the exact thread was.

IF you don't care about getting more loot while playing the game, then I'm not sure if ESO is the right game for you. I said in my post that some folks may not agree with my suggestions, but you are certainly welcome list node ideas that are not "atrocious". Remember, the replacement nodes can not feature anything that confers a direct combat benefit.

Siohwenoeht

What would the vertical progression be in your system? CP beyond 300 doesn't really contribute much in the way of increases, beyond the fact you can add to more stars. New sets, not CP are the major driver of power creep.

Vercingetorix

rotaugen454 wrote: »

If they did this and didn’t adjust dungeon difficulty, even fewer people would be able to complete vet DLC dungeons or trials. It would become even more elitist than it already is.

I specifically mentioned this issue in my post. Yes, some re-tooling would be needed since the power creep would be taken away. A lot of the newer trials were designed with the power creep numbers in mind, so an adjustment after a CP rework would likely be needed.

rotaugen454

I

Vercingetorix wrote: »

rotaugen454 wrote: »

If they did this and didn’t adjust dungeon difficulty, even fewer people would be able to complete vet DLC dungeons or trials. It would become even more elitist than it already is.

I specifically mentioned this issue in my post. Yes, some re-tooling would be needed since the power creep would be taken away. A lot of the newer trials were designed with the power creep numbers in mind, so an adjustment after a CP rework would likely be needed.

Yeah, but my worry is whether they could do it. They already have normal dungeons that do almost nothing to teach mechanic to be ready for vet. Same with trials. We’ve seen how they’ve been with “balancing” over the last 5 years. Stuff would either become a garden party or an uncompletable nightmare.

Vercingetorix

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

What would the vertical progression be in your system? CP beyond 300 doesn't really contribute much in the way of increases, beyond the fact you can add to more stars. New sets, not CP are the major driver of power creep.

Well, when you consider that the blue trees add anywhere from 19-24% additional, multiplicative increases to outgoing damage via Thaumaturge/Master-At-Arms, then another 12-14% on average from Mighty/Ele-Talent, another 19-24% critical damage increase, and then adding a free base 9% crit chance on top of all that... power creep exists there wholesale. By removing those type of nodes entirely, and instead having nodes that give QoL improvements, the player's game economy becomes stronger but the skill needed for endgame content is untouched.

Right now, all trees have 4 "passive nodes" with static values - we could expand on that and make all CP nodes "passive nodes" and simply have the player dump points into the tree whose perks they want to work towards. The more impactful nodes like "extra crafting mats from resource nodes" or "double loot from dungeon/trial monsters" could be unlocked at higher point thresholds.

KappaKid83

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Since gear is currently tied to CP, gear would be need to be re-scaled to cap at level 50. That is, any gear that is CP 10-160 would be converted to level 50. Champion points would no longer exist on gear. Most CP crafting mats would be be retired, with CP160 mats being scaled as the new "level 50" mat. Legacy mats can be sold by vets to vendors for some gold and the non-legacy mats that remain can continue to have use to you.

I think that Champion Points can exist, but can only confer strictly non-combat bonuses like "harvest node bonus" or "reduced armor repair cost".
The goal would be to remove and replace:
- damage buffs that are present in the blue trees
- sustain buffs/debuffs in the green trees
- defense buffs in the red trees
(Yes, I am aware of the fact that this basically means nearly every CP node gets replaced. If anything, this highlights the power creep issue in ESO.)

By getting rid of these CP combat bonuses, the dps and survival of players will be decreased back to near-mortal levels, encouraging different gear sets for survival or damage. For example, Impregnable Armor set will have a lot more value when players can no longer stack Resistant in the Steed tree, so a trade-off between damage and defense will have to be made! DPS players will likely have to consider a sustain set instead of only stacking damage if they want to be relevant in longer boss fights. This would be a healthy change for both PvE and PvP. Some trials may need some of their encounters re-tooled in order to account for the sudden loss of power among players, but that would be it.

Replacement nodes can focus on QoL improvements that a veteran of the game can appreciate and a newcomer can be encouraged to get.
Here's some examples:
- % increased gold from quests
- % chance to ignore armor damage upon death
- % increased movement speed while outside of combat
- very small % chance for an improvement mat (Wax, Temp, Rosin, Plating) to drop from a resource node
- very small % chance for double loot from killing a dungeon or trial monster (includes bosses)

In these examples, some of the more lucrative nodes would be put in the same tree so players have to make a meaningful trade-off with a limited number of points to spend. Even if you disagree with these specific node suggestions, that's ok because the focus here is to change the nodes in a way that is engaging and useful to the player without directly improving their damage or defenses. The end result is that CP rank should indicate dedication and time put into the game - NOT your power level, no matter what aspect of the game you play.

So what you are proposing makes all PvP No-CP at this point? I think a better rework for the system would be to do away with the .09% stuff(like having 23.09% more in a certain tree) and make point nodes be .125 or .25% per point thus eliminating most of the inane small percentage points that getting rounded to flat numbers anyways.

rotaugen454

If they switch CP to something else, they should give every CP that you have cause 10 points of Oblivion damage with no cap. One shots galore!

mursie

oh wait - I got a better idea.

scrap the entire pile

Vercingetorix

KappaKid83 wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Since gear is currently tied to CP, gear would be need to be re-scaled to cap at level 50. That is, any gear that is CP 10-160 would be converted to level 50. Champion points would no longer exist on gear. Most CP crafting mats would be be retired, with CP160 mats being scaled as the new "level 50" mat. Legacy mats can be sold by vets to vendors for some gold and the non-legacy mats that remain can continue to have use to you.

I think that Champion Points can exist, but can only confer strictly non-combat bonuses like "harvest node bonus" or "reduced armor repair cost".
The goal would be to remove and replace:
- damage buffs that are present in the blue trees
- sustain buffs/debuffs in the green trees
- defense buffs in the red trees
(Yes, I am aware of the fact that this basically means nearly every CP node gets replaced. If anything, this highlights the power creep issue in ESO.)

By getting rid of these CP combat bonuses, the dps and survival of players will be decreased back to near-mortal levels, encouraging different gear sets for survival or damage. For example, Impregnable Armor set will have a lot more value when players can no longer stack Resistant in the Steed tree, so a trade-off between damage and defense will have to be made! DPS players will likely have to consider a sustain set instead of only stacking damage if they want to be relevant in longer boss fights. This would be a healthy change for both PvE and PvP. Some trials may need some of their encounters re-tooled in order to account for the sudden loss of power among players, but that would be it.

Replacement nodes can focus on QoL improvements that a veteran of the game can appreciate and a newcomer can be encouraged to get.
Here's some examples:
- % increased gold from quests
- % chance to ignore armor damage upon death
- % increased movement speed while outside of combat
- very small % chance for an improvement mat (Wax, Temp, Rosin, Plating) to drop from a resource node
- very small % chance for double loot from killing a dungeon or trial monster (includes bosses)

In these examples, some of the more lucrative nodes would be put in the same tree so players have to make a meaningful trade-off with a limited number of points to spend. Even if you disagree with these specific node suggestions, that's ok because the focus here is to change the nodes in a way that is engaging and useful to the player without directly improving their damage or defenses. The end result is that CP rank should indicate dedication and time put into the game - NOT your power level, no matter what aspect of the game you play.

So what you are proposing makes all PvP No-CP at this point? I think a better rework for the system would be to do away with the .09% stuff(like having 23.09% more in a certain tree) and make point nodes be .125 or .25% per point thus eliminating most of the inane small percentage points that getting rounded to flat numbers anyways.

In effect, yes - all of ESO (including PvP) would be non-CP, in terms of damage buffs. You've bee accustomed to the damage that CP provides, but in time you will adjust for the damage it gave you, realize that it carried your build in ways that will shock you, and end up being a better player without those buffs.

No_Division

I still think CP is going to be a mix of stat buff/spell crafting. Whatever the case, the ability audit is most likely paved the way for the CP audit.

Odovacar

I'm sure many of our community CP propositions will be better than what ZOS will unveil sometime in the distant future...

Nevasca

That would kill progression feeling while leveling up CP. I think they should just tone down a bit, remove some nodes (like healing done/received, maybe add a specific % that buffs your heals to other targets but not you, nerf roll dodge/block cost cp ).

Like, if you play with 300cp, everything feels more balanced, sustain, tankyness, damage wise and so on (PvE). So they have a lot of directions to go for, but I feel ZOS is doing the right thing, first adjusting the base, then going for CP adjustments.

Vercingetorix

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

That would kill progression feeling while leveling up CP. I think they should just tone down a bit, remove some nodes (like healing done/received, maybe add a specific % that buffs your heals to other targets but not you, nerf roll dodge/block cost cp ).

Like, if you play with 300cp, everything feels more balanced, sustain, tankyness, damage wise and so on (PvE). So they have a lot of directions to go for, but I feel ZOS is doing the right thing, first adjusting the base, then going for CP adjustments.

Progression is not strictly about doing more damage through a set of account passives. The gear you work towards acquiring IS your progression - that's where your damage comes from. Gaining new QoL bonuses will be nice to have, but your CP will no longer be a indicator of your damage potential. CP 10's with the right gear setup and a solid rotation will deal damage and survive just as well as a CP 810 player. That is a good thing. How many times have you found yourself in a random dungeon queue and see a sub-300 CP player and groan because you know the fights will take longer? Why would you want to continue that?

KappaKid83

Vercingetorix wrote: »

KappaKid83 wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Since gear is currently tied to CP, gear would be need to be re-scaled to cap at level 50. That is, any gear that is CP 10-160 would be converted to level 50. Champion points would no longer exist on gear. Most CP crafting mats would be be retired, with CP160 mats being scaled as the new "level 50" mat. Legacy mats can be sold by vets to vendors for some gold and the non-legacy mats that remain can continue to have use to you.

I think that Champion Points can exist, but can only confer strictly non-combat bonuses like "harvest node bonus" or "reduced armor repair cost".
The goal would be to remove and replace:
- damage buffs that are present in the blue trees
- sustain buffs/debuffs in the green trees
- defense buffs in the red trees
(Yes, I am aware of the fact that this basically means nearly every CP node gets replaced. If anything, this highlights the power creep issue in ESO.)

By getting rid of these CP combat bonuses, the dps and survival of players will be decreased back to near-mortal levels, encouraging different gear sets for survival or damage. For example, Impregnable Armor set will have a lot more value when players can no longer stack Resistant in the Steed tree, so a trade-off between damage and defense will have to be made! DPS players will likely have to consider a sustain set instead of only stacking damage if they want to be relevant in longer boss fights. This would be a healthy change for both PvE and PvP. Some trials may need some of their encounters re-tooled in order to account for the sudden loss of power among players, but that would be it.

Replacement nodes can focus on QoL improvements that a veteran of the game can appreciate and a newcomer can be encouraged to get.
Here's some examples:
- % increased gold from quests
- % chance to ignore armor damage upon death
- % increased movement speed while outside of combat
- very small % chance for an improvement mat (Wax, Temp, Rosin, Plating) to drop from a resource node
- very small % chance for double loot from killing a dungeon or trial monster (includes bosses)

In these examples, some of the more lucrative nodes would be put in the same tree so players have to make a meaningful trade-off with a limited number of points to spend. Even if you disagree with these specific node suggestions, that's ok because the focus here is to change the nodes in a way that is engaging and useful to the player without directly improving their damage or defenses. The end result is that CP rank should indicate dedication and time put into the game - NOT your power level, no matter what aspect of the game you play.

So what you are proposing makes all PvP No-CP at this point? I think a better rework for the system would be to do away with the .09% stuff(like having 23.09% more in a certain tree) and make point nodes be .125 or .25% per point thus eliminating most of the inane small percentage points that getting rounded to flat numbers anyways.

In effect, yes - all of ESO (including PvP) would be non-CP, in terms of damage buffs. You've bee accustomed to the damage that CP provides, but in time you will adjust for the damage it gave you, realize that it carried your build in ways that will shock you, and end up being a better player without those buffs.

But what if I have run No-CP campaigns for PVP and am accustomed to what a lower damage amount looks like? I guess to me No-CP basically caters to builds that can stack regen and still do damage, which have historically been Stam only. It would be a daunting task to have to rework nearly everything in game to balance Mag and Stam to be even. I like the thought process and applaud the effort into your post, I just don't see it as feasible.

heaven13

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

That would kill progression feeling while leveling up CP. I think they should just tone down a bit, remove some nodes (like healing done/received, maybe add a specific % that buffs your heals to other targets but not you, nerf roll dodge/block cost cp ).

Like, if you play with 300cp, everything feels more balanced, sustain, tankyness, damage wise and so on (PvE). So they have a lot of directions to go for, but I feel ZOS is doing the right thing, first adjusting the base, then going for CP adjustments.

Progression is not strictly about doing more damage through a set of account passives. The gear you work towards acquiring IS your progression - that's where your damage comes from. Gaining new QoL bonuses will be nice to have, but your CP will no longer be a indicator of your damage potential. CP 10's with the right gear setup and a solid rotation will deal damage and survive just as well as a CP 810 player. That is a good thing. How many times have you found yourself in a random dungeon queue and see a sub-300 CP player and groan because you know the fights will take longer? Why would you want to continue that?

CP is not indicative of skill though. There have been plenty of times when I've been in a dungeon with a maxed CP player and still done approximately 75% of the dps.

Vercingetorix

heaven13 wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

That would kill progression feeling while leveling up CP. I think they should just tone down a bit, remove some nodes (like healing done/received, maybe add a specific % that buffs your heals to other targets but not you, nerf roll dodge/block cost cp ).

Like, if you play with 300cp, everything feels more balanced, sustain, tankyness, damage wise and so on (PvE). So they have a lot of directions to go for, but I feel ZOS is doing the right thing, first adjusting the base, then going for CP adjustments.

Progression is not strictly about doing more damage through a set of account passives. The gear you work towards acquiring IS your progression - that's where your damage comes from. Gaining new QoL bonuses will be nice to have, but your CP will no longer be a indicator of your damage potential. CP 10's with the right gear setup and a solid rotation will deal damage and survive just as well as a CP 810 player. That is a good thing. How many times have you found yourself in a random dungeon queue and see a sub-300 CP player and groan because you know the fights will take longer? Why would you want to continue that?

CP is not indicative of skill though. There have been plenty of times when I've been in a dungeon with a maxed CP player and still done approximately 75% of the dps.

I never said it was an indicator of skill. The reason I said lower CP is typically not liked in pugs is because you know the person in question has less champion points to work with and thus has less DPS and survivability by default. I don't like the fact that this type of discrimination exists in pugs, but from a purely mathematical standpoint, the low CP player is a potential liability and for some folks, that's enough to complain. I am happily surprised when a low CP player rises to the occasion and does great work, but sadly this is not a common occurrence - I do wish it was.

Vercingetorix

KappaKid83 wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

KappaKid83 wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Since gear is currently tied to CP, gear would be need to be re-scaled to cap at level 50. That is, any gear that is CP 10-160 would be converted to level 50. Champion points would no longer exist on gear. Most CP crafting mats would be be retired, with CP160 mats being scaled as the new "level 50" mat. Legacy mats can be sold by vets to vendors for some gold and the non-legacy mats that remain can continue to have use to you.

I think that Champion Points can exist, but can only confer strictly non-combat bonuses like "harvest node bonus" or "reduced armor repair cost".
The goal would be to remove and replace:
- damage buffs that are present in the blue trees
- sustain buffs/debuffs in the green trees
- defense buffs in the red trees
(Yes, I am aware of the fact that this basically means nearly every CP node gets replaced. If anything, this highlights the power creep issue in ESO.)

By getting rid of these CP combat bonuses, the dps and survival of players will be decreased back to near-mortal levels, encouraging different gear sets for survival or damage. For example, Impregnable Armor set will have a lot more value when players can no longer stack Resistant in the Steed tree, so a trade-off between damage and defense will have to be made! DPS players will likely have to consider a sustain set instead of only stacking damage if they want to be relevant in longer boss fights. This would be a healthy change for both PvE and PvP. Some trials may need some of their encounters re-tooled in order to account for the sudden loss of power among players, but that would be it.

Replacement nodes can focus on QoL improvements that a veteran of the game can appreciate and a newcomer can be encouraged to get.
Here's some examples:
- % increased gold from quests
- % chance to ignore armor damage upon death
- % increased movement speed while outside of combat
- very small % chance for an improvement mat (Wax, Temp, Rosin, Plating) to drop from a resource node
- very small % chance for double loot from killing a dungeon or trial monster (includes bosses)

In these examples, some of the more lucrative nodes would be put in the same tree so players have to make a meaningful trade-off with a limited number of points to spend. Even if you disagree with these specific node suggestions, that's ok because the focus here is to change the nodes in a way that is engaging and useful to the player without directly improving their damage or defenses. The end result is that CP rank should indicate dedication and time put into the game - NOT your power level, no matter what aspect of the game you play.

So what you are proposing makes all PvP No-CP at this point? I think a better rework for the system would be to do away with the .09% stuff(like having 23.09% more in a certain tree) and make point nodes be .125 or .25% per point thus eliminating most of the inane small percentage points that getting rounded to flat numbers anyways.

In effect, yes - all of ESO (including PvP) would be non-CP, in terms of damage buffs. You've bee accustomed to the damage that CP provides, but in time you will adjust for the damage it gave you, realize that it carried your build in ways that will shock you, and end up being a better player without those buffs.

But what if I have run No-CP campaigns for PVP and am accustomed to what a lower damage amount looks like? I guess to me No-CP basically caters to builds that can stack regen and still do damage, which have historically been Stam only. It would be a daunting task to have to rework nearly everything in game to balance Mag and Stam to be even. I like the thought process and applaud the effort into your post, I just don't see it as feasible.

As I said in my opening post, I am open to other suggestions but one thing we can all agree on is that the current system as it is now is BAD. A transition to a non-damage focus with CP would never be a single patch - we both know this. What we should do is identify the problem areas that arise from a CP change and to make sure that those issues are addressed. I think overall the CP system needs to shift away from combat buffs that are largely unneeded anyway (this is evident if you play enough non-CP PvP).

Siohwenoeht

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

What would the vertical progression be in your system? CP beyond 300 doesn't really contribute much in the way of increases, beyond the fact you can add to more stars. New sets, not CP are the major driver of power creep.

Well, when you consider that the blue trees add anywhere from 19-24% additional, multiplicative increases to outgoing damage via Thaumaturge/Master-At-Arms, then another 12-14% on average from Mighty/Ele-Talent, another 19-24% critical damage increase, and then adding a free base 9% crit chance on top of all that... power creep exists there wholesale. By removing those type of nodes entirely, and instead having nodes that give QoL improvements, the player's game economy becomes stronger but the skill needed for endgame content is untouched.

Right now, all trees have 4 "passive nodes" with static values - we could expand on that and make all CP nodes "passive nodes" and simply have the player dump points into the tree whose perks they want to work towards. The more impactful nodes like "extra crafting mats from resource nodes" or "double loot from dungeon/trial monsters" could be unlocked at higher point thresholds.

And that vast majority of those % increases happen within the first 300 CP... Anything beyond that you're fighting heavy diminishing returns. Add to that the first 300 add to your base attributes. For the new player, the baked in experience boost from enlightenment makes cp1 to cp300 quickly attainable. All dlc content is balanced around CP 300. Your system would not only eliminate meaningful progression, but require a rework of all content from the point 300 cap. Monumental task.

Nevasca

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

That would kill progression feeling while leveling up CP. I think they should just tone down a bit, remove some nodes (like healing done/received, maybe add a specific % that buffs your heals to other targets but not you, nerf roll dodge/block cost cp ).

Like, if you play with 300cp, everything feels more balanced, sustain, tankyness, damage wise and so on (PvE). So they have a lot of directions to go for, but I feel ZOS is doing the right thing, first adjusting the base, then going for CP adjustments.

Progression is not strictly about doing more damage through a set of account passives. The gear you work towards acquiring IS your progression - that's where your damage comes from. Gaining new QoL bonuses will be nice to have, but your CP will no longer be a indicator of your damage potential. CP 10's with the right gear setup and a solid rotation will deal damage and survive just as well as a CP 810 player. That is a good thing. How many times have you found yourself in a random dungeon queue and see a sub-300 CP player and groan because you know the fights will take longer? Why would you want to continue that?

The feeling of progression in games is literally feeling more powerful the more time you put into it, could be both the player skill increase or better gear, new skills, stats by leveling, and so on.

Honestly low CP can still pull respectable DPS if they are good enough, I've seen people with 200CP outparsing veterans with all maxed. It's mostly because low cp = less experience in terms of combat, so they usually don't pull as much DPS compared to maxed players, not necessarily because of CP. I also don't particularly mind the dungeon taking longer for low DPS(unless it's absurd low dps, like not even trying dps), as long as they can follow mechanics and stay alive I'm fine.

Vercingetorix

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

What would the vertical progression be in your system? CP beyond 300 doesn't really contribute much in the way of increases, beyond the fact you can add to more stars. New sets, not CP are the major driver of power creep.

Well, when you consider that the blue trees add anywhere from 19-24% additional, multiplicative increases to outgoing damage via Thaumaturge/Master-At-Arms, then another 12-14% on average from Mighty/Ele-Talent, another 19-24% critical damage increase, and then adding a free base 9% crit chance on top of all that... power creep exists there wholesale. By removing those type of nodes entirely, and instead having nodes that give QoL improvements, the player's game economy becomes stronger but the skill needed for endgame content is untouched.

Right now, all trees have 4 "passive nodes" with static values - we could expand on that and make all CP nodes "passive nodes" and simply have the player dump points into the tree whose perks they want to work towards. The more impactful nodes like "extra crafting mats from resource nodes" or "double loot from dungeon/trial monsters" could be unlocked at higher point thresholds.

And that vast majority of those % increases happen within the first 300 CP... Anything beyond that you're fighting heavy diminishing returns. Add to that the first 300 add to your base attributes. For the new player, the baked in experience boost from enlightenment makes cp1 to cp300 quickly attainable. All dlc content is balanced around CP 300. Your system would not only eliminate meaningful progression, but require a rework of all content from the point 300 cap. Monumental task.

The CP xp curve can be readjusted - you realize that, right? The only reason why it was put in place was because of the damage buffs that CP were giving players. Once enough players started getting too many points, they had to hard cap the entire thing. If there are no more damage buffs in the CP nodes, then there is no reason to cap or restrict the champion point gain anymore.

Siohwenoeht

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

What would the vertical progression be in your system? CP beyond 300 doesn't really contribute much in the way of increases, beyond the fact you can add to more stars. New sets, not CP are the major driver of power creep.

Well, when you consider that the blue trees add anywhere from 19-24% additional, multiplicative increases to outgoing damage via Thaumaturge/Master-At-Arms, then another 12-14% on average from Mighty/Ele-Talent, another 19-24% critical damage increase, and then adding a free base 9% crit chance on top of all that... power creep exists there wholesale. By removing those type of nodes entirely, and instead having nodes that give QoL improvements, the player's game economy becomes stronger but the skill needed for endgame content is untouched.

Right now, all trees have 4 "passive nodes" with static values - we could expand on that and make all CP nodes "passive nodes" and simply have the player dump points into the tree whose perks they want to work towards. The more impactful nodes like "extra crafting mats from resource nodes" or "double loot from dungeon/trial monsters" could be unlocked at higher point thresholds.

And that vast majority of those % increases happen within the first 300 CP... Anything beyond that you're fighting heavy diminishing returns. Add to that the first 300 add to your base attributes. For the new player, the baked in experience boost from enlightenment makes cp1 to cp300 quickly attainable. All dlc content is balanced around CP 300. Your system would not only eliminate meaningful progression, but require a rework of all content from the point 300 cap. Monumental task.

The CP xp curve can be readjusted - you realize that, right? The only reason why it was put in place was because of the damage buffs that CP were giving players. Once enough players started getting too many points, they had to hard cap the entire thing. If there are no more damage buffs in the CP nodes, then there is no reason to cap or restrict the champion point gain anymore.

Well that's exactly where we disagree. If there is no vertical progression there would be hardly any reason to continue playing between content releases for many many players. Your system basically gives one goal to reach in character power and gives no incentive to continue to develop a character beyond that. I think you misjudge how many people would care about material nodes and overland loot.

There needs to be meaningful vertical progression for post level cap characters.

Skwor

Any suggestion removing vertical progression will kill the game. Devs know this.

Be it CP, Vet Ranks or something else we need vertical progression. Without it you do not have an MMO RPG you instead have a storybook choose your own adventure CYOA and after the first play through most never play again.

I prefer ESO not commit suicide by CYOA

Siohwenoeht

Skwor wrote: »

Any suggestion removing vertical progression will kill the game. Devs know this.

Be it CP, Vet Ranks or something else we need vertical progression. Without it you do not have an MMO RPG you instead have a storybook choose your own adventure CYOA and after the first play through most never play again.

I prefer ESO not commit suicide by CYOA

Can't agree more.

Vercingetorix

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

What would the vertical progression be in your system? CP beyond 300 doesn't really contribute much in the way of increases, beyond the fact you can add to more stars. New sets, not CP are the major driver of power creep.

Well, when you consider that the blue trees add anywhere from 19-24% additional, multiplicative increases to outgoing damage via Thaumaturge/Master-At-Arms, then another 12-14% on average from Mighty/Ele-Talent, another 19-24% critical damage increase, and then adding a free base 9% crit chance on top of all that... power creep exists there wholesale. By removing those type of nodes entirely, and instead having nodes that give QoL improvements, the player's game economy becomes stronger but the skill needed for endgame content is untouched.

Right now, all trees have 4 "passive nodes" with static values - we could expand on that and make all CP nodes "passive nodes" and simply have the player dump points into the tree whose perks they want to work towards. The more impactful nodes like "extra crafting mats from resource nodes" or "double loot from dungeon/trial monsters" could be unlocked at higher point thresholds.

And that vast majority of those % increases happen within the first 300 CP... Anything beyond that you're fighting heavy diminishing returns. Add to that the first 300 add to your base attributes. For the new player, the baked in experience boost from enlightenment makes cp1 to cp300 quickly attainable. All dlc content is balanced around CP 300. Your system would not only eliminate meaningful progression, but require a rework of all content from the point 300 cap. Monumental task.

The CP xp curve can be readjusted - you realize that, right? The only reason why it was put in place was because of the damage buffs that CP were giving players. Once enough players started getting too many points, they had to hard cap the entire thing. If there are no more damage buffs in the CP nodes, then there is no reason to cap or restrict the champion point gain anymore.

Well that's exactly where we disagree. If there is no vertical progression there would be hardly any reason to continue playing between content releases for many many players. Your system basically gives one goal to reach in character power and gives no incentive to continue to develop a character beyond that. I think you misjudge how many people would care about material nodes and overland loot.

There needs to be meaningful vertical progression for post level cap characters.

There's no value in seeing higher numbers on a character spreadsheet if the next raid boss has a larger health pool to compensate. It's the illusion of progression, not actual progression. Power creep is bad because it is ultimately a shallow substitute for actual content. Champion Points should exist a small passive bonus to the account but the majority of the focus in the game should be on clearing content and grinding out new sets to experiment with - not getting another 30 points to shove into another "increase % damage" passive.

Girl_Number8

Stupid idea....Not well thought out.

frostz417

Vercingetorix wrote: »

frostz417 wrote: »

Increased gold from quest, increased loot and resource nodes. Lmao what a joke. Not all of us are role players so these changes are absolutely atrocious.

Only rework I’d care for is one that was suggested about making everything flat values and having special trees. I don’t recall what the exact thread was.

IF you don't care about getting more loot while playing the game, then I'm not sure if ESO is the right game for you. I said in my post that some folks may not agree with my suggestions, but you are certainly welcome list node ideas that are not "atrocious". Remember, the replacement nodes can not feature anything that confers a direct combat benefit.

They’re horrible ideas because cp isn’t some role play skill line. It’s to make people have a sense of progression. Not “woohoo I get to get more gold from doing boring ass quests. How amazing”
Cp shouldn’t be reworked to some crap like increased gold from questing or increased loot. It’s supposed to signify end game. Not role playing or farming. It’s already easy enough getting materials from nodes or even without using nodes aside from maybe jewlery crafting.

Siohwenoeht

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

What would the vertical progression be in your system? CP beyond 300 doesn't really contribute much in the way of increases, beyond the fact you can add to more stars. New sets, not CP are the major driver of power creep.

Well, when you consider that the blue trees add anywhere from 19-24% additional, multiplicative increases to outgoing damage via Thaumaturge/Master-At-Arms, then another 12-14% on average from Mighty/Ele-Talent, another 19-24% critical damage increase, and then adding a free base 9% crit chance on top of all that... power creep exists there wholesale. By removing those type of nodes entirely, and instead having nodes that give QoL improvements, the player's game economy becomes stronger but the skill needed for endgame content is untouched.

Right now, all trees have 4 "passive nodes" with static values - we could expand on that and make all CP nodes "passive nodes" and simply have the player dump points into the tree whose perks they want to work towards. The more impactful nodes like "extra crafting mats from resource nodes" or "double loot from dungeon/trial monsters" could be unlocked at higher point thresholds.

And that vast majority of those % increases happen within the first 300 CP... Anything beyond that you're fighting heavy diminishing returns. Add to that the first 300 add to your base attributes. For the new player, the baked in experience boost from enlightenment makes cp1 to cp300 quickly attainable. All dlc content is balanced around CP 300. Your system would not only eliminate meaningful progression, but require a rework of all content from the point 300 cap. Monumental task.

The CP xp curve can be readjusted - you realize that, right? The only reason why it was put in place was because of the damage buffs that CP were giving players. Once enough players started getting too many points, they had to hard cap the entire thing. If there are no more damage buffs in the CP nodes, then there is no reason to cap or restrict the champion point gain anymore.

Well that's exactly where we disagree. If there is no vertical progression there would be hardly any reason to continue playing between content releases for many many players. Your system basically gives one goal to reach in character power and gives no incentive to continue to develop a character beyond that. I think you misjudge how many people would care about material nodes and overland loot.

There needs to be meaningful vertical progression for post level cap characters.

There's no value in seeing higher numbers on a character spreadsheet if the next raid boss has a larger health pool to compensate. It's the illusion of progression, not actual progression. Power creep is bad because it is ultimately a shallow substitute for actual content. Champion Points should exist a small passive bonus to the account but the majority of the focus in the game should be on clearing content and grinding out new sets to experiment with - not getting another 30 points to shove into another "increase % damage" passive.

That power increase puts endgame content in the reach of players that aren't always on the cutting edge though.

Imagine that for whatever reason, you can't get a perfect rotation down or perfectly weave.

You continue to do what you can, increase your CP and finally can make up for the technical difficulties to begin running endgame content.

A single level cap with no progression beyond it makes perfecting your technical ability the only way to compete in endgame. You'd actually widen the gap between players that way.

Your system would put certain content permanently out of reach for some while simultaneously taking away the ability of others to do it.

rotaugen454

The big problem is balancing dungeon mechanics around people who can do perfect rotations. That sort of skill should count towards speed runs an no death runs on leaderboard, not on being able to finish at all.