[Suggestion] Balancing Cloak/The Invisibility Mechanic

Elusiin

Current: Cloak yourself in shadow to become invisible for 3 second.

Proposed: Cloak yourself in shadows granting stealth for 6 seconds.
This ability is now affected by your stealth radius and does not apply a movement speed penalty, but others can detect you if they are close enough to your radius. If you attack, the effect ends early, but if you are attacked the effect remains.

This change would allow NB to still open combat with stealth and, while not guaranteed as it is currently, provide them an opportunity to escape. Counterplay would be to stay close to NB, additionally magelight and stealth detection potions could just boost your range of stealth detection.

Reasoning:

Now that the game is undergoing a major overhaul for sake of balance, I believe the cloak mechanic should be changed to make room for counter play (just like with reflective scales). The problem with the current cloak or invisibility mechanic is that you can go invisible in combat and unless someone has slotted specific spells, all of which offer little to nothing to a build, they cannot detect you (or carry a stealth detection potion that is inferior to most other potions that grant essential benefits like major brutality or sorcery). Much like with reflective scales, it encourages all players to change their setup just to account for a single ability/mechanic. Many new players in PvP lack this knowledge and often are free kills to NB gankers, even experienced players have trouble dealing with invisibility even with detection abilities slotted. From a logical and realistic perspective, if I walk into an invisible person (am standing in the same spot as them), I should be able to detect them. Furthermore, if they're close to me and I'm aware of my surroundings, any breath, or footsteps should give their position away.

SidraWillowsky

Other

LOATHE.

Wtf kind of BS is this?!

What you're describing is LITERALLY JUST THE STEALTH THAT ALREADY EXISTS IN THE GAME. Cloak is not OP, nor is it unbalanced. There are so many counters to cloak that it's laughable that people still cry about it.

Is this a troll post?

Elusiin

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

LOATHE.

Wtf kind of BS is this?!

What you're describing is LITERALLY JUST THE STEALTH THAT ALREADY EXISTS IN THE GAME. Cloak is not OP, nor is it unbalanced. There are so many counters to cloak that it's laughable that people still cry about it.

Is this a troll post?

I take it you main Nightblade... It's a legitimate post, and my arguments are valid. That is not the same stealth, in this version you keep it if attacked and do not have to crouch. It has counterplay unlike 100% invisibility. No crying here, again just pointing out the lack of balance with the ability. If you have reasons for why my points are not valid, please post and I'll be happy to discuss them and see your perspective.

Gilvoth

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

LOATHE.

Wtf kind of BS is this?!

What you're describing is LITERALLY JUST THE STEALTH THAT ALREADY EXISTS IN THE GAME. Cloak is not OP, nor is it unbalanced. There are so many counters to cloak that it's laughable that people still cry about it.

Is this a troll post?

exactly
just use the counters already ingame, they do work.
i use them in battle against nightblades and they work.

Elusiin

Gilvoth wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

LOATHE.

Wtf kind of BS is this?!

What you're describing is LITERALLY JUST THE STEALTH THAT ALREADY EXISTS IN THE GAME. Cloak is not OP, nor is it unbalanced. There are so many counters to cloak that it's laughable that people still cry about it.

Is this a troll post?

exactly
just use the counters already ingame, they do work.
i use them in battle against nightblades and they work.

Yes but that forces you to change your ability bar and/or use your only potion slot just because of a single ability. Which isn't counterplay, it's counterbuilding, again because of a single ability. Just like with reflective scales. Also the current form of invisibility grants anyone the power to reset a fight. In the time it takes to switch to cast or use a potion to counter them, they're healing or have gotten distance.

Sharee

Other

I do agree something should change, tho not neccessarily this way.

How about keeping the current mechanic of cloak, doubling or tripling the duration, but giving it a stacking cost penalty like roll dodging or streak have. That way a NB can still use it to get away, but the other combatant gets rewarded for successfully decloaking the NB (for example by a well-placed ground AOE) instead of the NB just cloaking again and again until he succeeds.

The NB can still use cloak offensively (for example to stun with cloak->surprise attack combo) if he keeps it to no more than once every 4 seconds.

Elusiin

Sharee wrote: »

I do agree something should change, tho not neccessarily this way.

How about keeping the current mechanic of cloak, doubling or tripling the duration, but giving it a stacking cost penalty like roll dodging or streak have. That way a NB can still use it to get away, but the other combatant gets rewarded for successfully decloaking the NB (for example by a well-placed ground AOE) instead of the NB just cloaking again and again until he succeeds.

The NB can still use cloak offensively (for example to stun with cloak->surprise attack combo) if he keeps it to no more than once every 4 seconds.

I could get behind this, but 3 seconds is already enough to escape and only need to use it once or twice. If any buff to duration, 4 seconds would be the most it should go.

seratin

Dislike

Why wouldn't I just use normal stealth if I'm not already in combat? This proposed change would make the skill all but useless during combat since anytime you would want to use it enemies would likely be close enough to see you anyway.

I wouldn't mind seeing a quality of life upgrade to say the duration or radius of the stealth detection skills, but this definitely isn't the way to go.

Sharee

Other

Elusiin wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

I do agree something should change, tho not neccessarily this way.

How about keeping the current mechanic of cloak, doubling or tripling the duration, but giving it a stacking cost penalty like roll dodging or streak have. That way a NB can still use it to get away, but the other combatant gets rewarded for successfully decloaking the NB (for example by a well-placed ground AOE) instead of the NB just cloaking again and again until he succeeds.

The NB can still use cloak offensively (for example to stun with cloak->surprise attack combo) if he keeps it to no more than once every 4 seconds.

I could get behind this, but 3 seconds is already enough to escape and only need to use it once or twice. If any buff to duration, 4 seconds would be the most it should go.

The idea with the duration increase is that a NB who does *not* get pulled out of cloak should not see a difference compared to today. Today he can just spam cloak to increase duration, after this he can not, but he does not have to since the duration is longer. The NB should only see a difference when he gets revealed.

That way the NB can continue to function just like today, except when forcibly taken out of cloak.

Elusiin

seratin wrote: »

Why wouldn't I just use normal stealth if I'm not already in combat? This proposed change would make the skill all but useless during combat since anytime you would want to use it enemies would likely be close enough to see you anyway.

I wouldn't mind seeing a quality of life upgrade to say the duration or radius of the stealth detection skills, but this definitely isn't the way to go.

bEcAuSe iF YoU ReAd mY PoSt, the new cloak would grant you stealth without you having to crouch or moving slower, additionally the morphed version could reduce your stealth radius so that it's still a powerful skill, just that if someone gets close enough to you, you are visible to them. Boom, counterplay (gap closers, staying close), and NB can still gank or flee using it.

Elusiin

Sharee wrote: »

Elusiin wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

I do agree something should change, tho not neccessarily this way.

How about keeping the current mechanic of cloak, doubling or tripling the duration, but giving it a stacking cost penalty like roll dodging or streak have. That way a NB can still use it to get away, but the other combatant gets rewarded for successfully decloaking the NB (for example by a well-placed ground AOE) instead of the NB just cloaking again and again until he succeeds.

The NB can still use cloak offensively (for example to stun with cloak->surprise attack combo) if he keeps it to no more than once every 4 seconds.

I could get behind this, but 3 seconds is already enough to escape and only need to use it once or twice. If any buff to duration, 4 seconds would be the most it should go.

The idea with the duration increase is that a NB who does *not* get pulled out of cloak should not see a difference compared to today. Today he can just spam cloak to increase duration, after this he can not, but he does not have to since the duration is longer. The NB should only see a difference when he gets revealed.

That way the NB can continue to function just like today, except when forcibly taken out of cloak.

Fair enough, but I still wouldn't go for more than double the duration.

seratin

Dislike

Elusiin wrote: »

bEcAuSe iF YoU ReAd mY PoSt, the new cloak would grant you stealth without you having to crouch or moving slower, additionally the morphed version could reduce your stealth radius so that it's still a powerful skill, just that if someone gets close enough to you, you are visible to them. Boom, counterplay (gap closers, staying close), and NB can still gank or flee using it.

Why waste resources on a skill that's not going to perform any differently than just crouching though. Prior to combat a stam nightblade isn't going to have the resources to maintain this for long periods and a mag nightblade could just slot concealed weapon to take care of the speed issue. Regular stealth is still going to be the best choice there.

During combat your proposal either changes nothing since the enemy is far enough away or completely guts the skill since the enemy is close enough to see you anyway. A nightblade would need ancillary skills to disengage for this to even be close to practical.

You're still better off adjusting the skills that were already designed to offer counter play.

Nerouyn

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

What you're describing is LITERALLY JUST THE STEALTH THAT ALREADY EXISTS IN THE GAME. Cloak is not OP, nor is it unbalanced.

You can't have this one both ways.

In PvE cloak is grossly unbalanced. That and the nighblade stealth speed bonus give them an undeniable advantage over other classes for stealing and assassination.

"They're insignificant," you say. Not an issue at all.

Well you wouldn't mind at all sharing them with other classes then?

Would you?

Thanks for your support

Kel

Dislike

Nerouyn wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

What you're describing is LITERALLY JUST THE STEALTH THAT ALREADY EXISTS IN THE GAME. Cloak is not OP, nor is it unbalanced.

You can't have this one both ways.

In PvE cloak is grossly unbalanced. That and the nighblade stealth speed bonus give them an undeniable advantage over other classes for stealing and assassination.

"They're insignificant," you say. Not an issue at all.

Well you wouldn't mind at all sharing them with other classes then?

Would you?

Thanks for your support

Anyone can have a stealth speed bonus. It comes from the vampire skill line. Reduced stealth cost can both be found in the CP tree and in the legerdemain skill line.

All classes do have access to these.

Ackwalan

You don't understand how cloak and invisibility works. It is not guaranteed as you claim.

Elusiin

Ackwalan wrote: »

You don't understand how cloak and invisibility works. It is not guaranteed as you claim.

I wouldn't be writing about proposed solutions to fix a mechanic that has no counterplay if I didn't have some experience dealing with it. I'm well aware that it's not guaranteed, but it's uncommon to actually keep a NB ever kept out of his cloak. Even with ground AoEs, detection potions, and even abilities like magelight (all of which require accommodation on your bar or only potion slot, i.e. counterbuilding), they still manage to get away with roll dodge + cloak spam. If staying close was all that was needed, combating cloak would be viable for all builds. Use cc, sprint, streak, etc. to stay with them. This is counterplay, which is what I think the devs want to encourage, not counterbuilding as seen in the changes to reflective scales.

Deathlord92

Ffs here we go again cloak is not op it has enough counters get good rather then trying to destroy the identity of classes. You know I been playing eso since 2015 and never have I asked for a class or skill nerf.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

Like

Sharee wrote: »

I do agree something should change, tho not neccessarily this way.

How about keeping the current mechanic of cloak, doubling or tripling the duration, but giving it a stacking cost penalty like roll dodging or streak have. That way a NB can still use it to get away, but the other combatant gets rewarded for successfully decloaking the NB (for example by a well-placed ground AOE) instead of the NB just cloaking again and again until he succeeds.

The NB can still use cloak offensively (for example to stun with cloak->surprise attack combo) if he keeps it to no more than once every 4 seconds.

I think you forgot dark cloak that's a tanking skill mostly which gives us heal? oh I would love to see how people will react after we took the hammer so hard and then add this BS to a heal that's already been made weak...

on topic I kinda like the idea the OP proposed and yes I main a nb and unlike others I dont "mimimimim" at everything...this would make a lot more sense not to mention that the current cloak...idk how do you people pvp? nbs cant cloak away if they have 1 dot on them it will break their cloak...ugh it wasn't supposed to but hey...balance and fixing skills is not top priority.

Jhalin

Dislike

Would make the skill absolutely useless in combat, no fkin thanks

Elusiin

Deathlord92 wrote: »

Ffs here we go again cloak is not op it has enough counters get good rather then trying to destroy the identity of classes. You know I been playing eso since 2015 and never have I asked for a class or skill nerf.

They'll still have the ability and it'll still be powerful, perhaps even better than it currently is? My proposal is a crouch based stealth minus the crouching/movement penalty, increased duration, and it doesn't break due to being damaged. Heck even the morph could reduce your stealth radius. Seems like that's a buff, but allows for close range counterplay.

Deathlord92

Elusiin wrote: »

Deathlord92 wrote: »

Ffs here we go again cloak is not op it has enough counters get good rather then trying to destroy the identity of classes. You know I been playing eso since 2015 and never have I asked for a class or skill nerf.

They'll still have the ability and it'll still be powerful, perhaps even better than it currently is? My proposal is a crouch based stealth minus the crouching/movement penalty, increased duration, and it doesn't break due to being damaged. Heck even the morph could reduce your stealth radius. Seems like that's a buff, but allows for close range counterplay.

By the way I run dark cloak most of the time even on my stamblade but when I do run shadow disguise I like how it already is with line of sight I have no problems with it if ur good on ur class your going to own if ur bad your going to get rekt stop asking for skills to get nerf.

Deathlord92

On magblade I don’t even use shadow disguise as magblade needs dark cloak heals.

TequilaFire

Dislike

I am curious OP what class is your main?

Vlad9425

Dislike

What you're proposing would literally destroy this class. You could change the title on this to say "I want NB to be useless" and it would literally have the same effect as what you're proposing. I have a better idea, how about we leave the NB class suggestions to people who actually know about the class and stop listening to suggestions of people who have no idea about how the NB class plays who ask for nerfs to abilities that have so many counter plays that even average players know how to use.

Tommy_The_Gun

Dislike

At this point I think they should add "cloak for everyone", just like they did with fear.
At least it would should down the whole "OP CLOAK" threads, as people would see on their own how cloak is useless & super easy counterable and then they would want to buff it...

Sharee

Other

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

I do agree something should change, tho not neccessarily this way.

How about keeping the current mechanic of cloak, doubling or tripling the duration, but giving it a stacking cost penalty like roll dodging or streak have. That way a NB can still use it to get away, but the other combatant gets rewarded for successfully decloaking the NB (for example by a well-placed ground AOE) instead of the NB just cloaking again and again until he succeeds.

The NB can still use cloak offensively (for example to stun with cloak->surprise attack combo) if he keeps it to no more than once every 4 seconds.

I think you forgot dark cloak that's a tanking skill mostly which gives us heal? oh I would love to see how people will react after we took the hammer so hard and then add this BS to a heal that's already been made weak...

I did not forget anything, I just thought it was obvious (see thread title) this whole discussion is about the invisibility morph, not about the heal morph.

Joosef_Kivikilpi

Dislike

Elusiin wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

LOATHE.

Wtf kind of BS is this?!

What you're describing is LITERALLY JUST THE STEALTH THAT ALREADY EXISTS IN THE GAME. Cloak is not OP, nor is it unbalanced. There are so many counters to cloak that it's laughable that people still cry about it.

Is this a troll post?

I take it you main Nightblade... It's a legitimate post, and my arguments are valid. That is not the same stealth, in this version you keep it if attacked and do not have to crouch. It has counterplay unlike 100% invisibility. No crying here, again just pointing out the lack of balance with the ability. If you have reasons for why my points are not valid, please post and I'll be happy to discuss them and see your perspective.

Counterplay to current Nightblade Cloak: Equip detection Potion → Kill Nightblade. They've already gutted our ability to Cloak so much by putting in SO many counters and even abilities that completely SUPPRESS the ability. Just learn to freaking counter it. Gankblades don't have much else left in them.

SidraWillowsky

Other

Not gonna add quotes here to avoid an overly-long post, but

@Elusiin: I did (not the "did") main a nightblade- a stamblade. And I do still use her sometimes because she IS a glass cannon, but she's just that: glass. She lacks the survivability to do a whole lot outside of group play, so I play her very infrequently. I also have a magblade, but... lol. ZOS is slowly dismembering the class, so at this point, cloak is really the only reason to play her. She doesn't have a good "oh sh*te" heal, her DPS is sub-par, and the rotation is a nightmare. This next patch is only going to make things worse.

@Nerouyn: can't have *what* both ways? Isn't the entire POINT of classes for certain ones to be stronger than other at certain things?The NB class literally has an entire skill line called "Assassination". If they weren't better at this we'd seriously have a problem. And I don't think that I've ever seen anyone complain about cloak in PvE, so it seems like you're grasping at straws for the sake of feeling like you're making a valid argument. And no stamblade is going to slot cloak in PvE- you can hit it *maybe* three times in a row, if you're lucky. And, as I highlight above, the cost of being able to use cloak for longer durations with magblades is coming at an increasingly higher cost, since the class has been gutted.

And as @Joosef_Kivikilpi pointed out, there even exist abilities that suppress our ability to go invisible. When I PvP on one of my NBs, half the time I can't even cloak up in the first place because someone's got an ability up that counters even that.

Ackwalan

Elusiin wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

You don't understand how cloak and invisibility works. It is not guaranteed as you claim.

I wouldn't be writing about proposed solutions to fix a mechanic that has no counterplay if I didn't have some experience dealing with it. I'm well aware that it's not guaranteed, but it's uncommon to actually keep a NB ever kept out of his cloak. Even with ground AoEs, detection potions, and even abilities like magelight (all of which require accommodation on your bar or only potion slot, i.e. counterbuilding), they still manage to get away with roll dodge + cloak spam. If staying close was all that was needed, combating cloak would be viable for all builds. Use cc, sprint, streak, etc. to stay with them. This is counterplay, which is what I think the devs want to encourage, not counterbuilding as seen in the changes to reflective scales.

You just showed again how little you know about cloak and how it works, by saying it has no counter play.

Shardaxx

Dislike

That would make it even more useless than it is now.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Dislike

Cloak had so many counter AoEs are a hard counter alone you are taking that full damage even if you can’t be seen. Then again the damage tick boom you’re visible. The change you suggested would actually make cloak FAR stronger. Not to mention harder to counter.

A Khajiit with their Feline Ambush wearing full medium for the passive Improved Stealth with Night Mother's Embrace with your idea would be impossible to detect unless you walked inside of them. You can stack this on live not sure why you would want to be it all but kills stealth detection. That’s just off the top of my head you would be even harder to find as counters like reveal would only counter one for many stealth bonuses.