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The Ethics of Fake Tanking

msalvia
msalvia
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We've all been there...we queue up for a random dungeon and end up with the 13k health, bow/bow light attacker tank. Mabye they're a level 15 that sincerely doesn't understand dungeons--if so, be kind and explain. Or maybe they're just a crappy player who wants to skip the queue--plenty of those max cp power levelers out there who think they can hang because overland content is training wheels difficulty. And of course they do it--most people are too passive to kick someone who is gaming the queue.

But, when done right, fake tanking can be a good thing for the random NORMAL (vet is a different story) queue, but if--and only if--1) these fake tanks bring the bare minimum of the tank role to the party, and 2) other players stop being afraid to kick a horrible fake tank.

First, here are the skills a fake tank needs to bring to the party:
1. A taunt (at the very least inner fire, but how hard is it to slot a shield on one bar for puncture?)
2. 20k health. A tank getting 1 shot in normal dungeons is pathetic
3. some basic crowd control (most classes have some of this, but if not there's ice staff WoE and fighter's guild silver leash
4. Enough armor, resists, self- heals, sustain to not die. Basically every class has access to major resolve and some heals; slot them
5. The ability to hold the boss/elite enemies in one place (so don't be Dragon Leaping stuff out of the aoe, fake DK tanks)
6. Some dps of your own. Don't fake tank a dungeon as a dps and do tank-level dps (i.e. 4k or so)

That's it. That's not much of an ask to skip a queue...if players are too lazy to wait in the queue, at least be able to do some of what a tank should do. This helps to address the tank shortage without completely rewarding queue jumping, and let's face it, a tank isn't really needed in norms (but at the every least someone needs to taunt and CC stuff).

FOR THOSE OF US ENDURING THE FAKE TANK: If they're doing the basic job of a tank and contributing some dps of their own, let them stay. At the least, they recognized that they aren't a tank build and care enough to do some of the job while helping the team clear the dungeon faster. And if they're clearly new to the game, I beg you, be kind and explain to them. They're probably desperate to learn, and there's a lot to know in this game that isn't well-explained with no previous MMO experience.

BUT PLEASE START KICKING HORRIBLE FAKE TANKS. PLEASE. Don't be a jerk about it, but please recognize It's for the best for everyone. I know there are so many non-confrontational people around that this is unrealistic, but we can't just keep rewarding crap behavior. In what setting are people allowed to cut in line without getting sent to the back? Jerks thrive on the knowledge that lots of people will just take crap rather than say something, and this enables the behavior.

TLDR; We should expect fake tanks to perform at least some of the role (at the very least, slot a taunt and don't die), or we should stop being passive and kick them (except for new people, we should teach them the ropes). I'm more irritated by groups that refuse to kick than the horrible fake tanks themselves at this point . Refusing to kick someone who has proven to be a horrible fake tank basically says "I'm ok with this person skipping the queue, and I don't care that the other 2 players are going to have a bad time. Let's carry this fake tank instead of standing up for ourselves."

NOTE: I never, ever advocate kicking people based on their level, class, race choice, etc. Always give people a chance to perform.
  • El_Borracho
    El_Borracho
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    First off, I agree that kicking on level, etc is weak. I also don't think kicking someone from a normal is appropriate 99% of the time. But I think you just identified the one time when it is appropriate.

    Your whole argument falls apart if you don't have 2 competent DPS. Most of the time, the fake tank jumps in and there is at least one DPS that can destroy all in a normal dungeon. I've run many normals on topped-out alternate characters because its a quick way to get skill points. Its pretty easy to do in a non-DLC dungeon. To the point I wait up for lower level/new players to catch up who are trying to learn the dungeon.

    But, if a fake tank gets into a normal with 1 healer and 2 DPS, and the whole lot is a bunch of new players unfamiliar with dungeons, how does having a fake tank help anyone? You have a tank that is not a tank, who gets exposed immediately because of the lack of DPS. The healer now shoulders the burden, but we all know that can only last so long when the DPS is not there. And the DPS suffer as they are now running all over the place because the tank is not tanking. Its not a situation where you can teach, learn, or have a good time.

    I'm not saying it can't be done. And I would hope most of these "fake tanks" doing normals are actually very competent DPS. But there is a difference between a new tank and a fake tank. One is trying to tank. The other is selfishly jumping the queue and praying there is a DPS or two to cover for his ineptitude. With the latter happening more often than the former.
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    On normal difficulty, anyone who uses a taunt and doesnt die is an actual tank.

    Its the DDs who roll in with no taunt and "I'm gonna hold boss aggro with my amazing DPS" that annoy me. Their DPS is never enough, my healer or inevitably the squishiest DD in the party end up tanking the boss, and it just emds with me thinking "I should have just run on my tank after all."
  • msalvia
    msalvia
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    I'm not saying it can't be done. And I would hope most of these "fake tanks" doing normals are actually very competent DPS. But there is a difference between a new tank and a fake tank. One is trying to tank. The other is selfishly jumping the queue and praying there is a DPS or two to cover for his ineptitude. With the latter happening more often than the former.

    I actually fully agree with you. And my original point (which likely didn't come through as clearly as I had hoped) was that these fake tanks ARE typically competent dps.That was my final point about "bringing some dps of your own" if you're gonna fake tank. I can't even imagine a group of three dps who can't clear FG1 or BC1, but that group isn't gonna be much (if at all) better with a "real" tank doing no damage. My whole point was that if you're looking at a squishy fake tank with no taunt, no CC, and no dps, they should be kicked. And I hate kicking people, but fake tanking at this level is worthy of a boot.
  • Noldornir
    Noldornir
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    I'm main tank (DK).

    I clear vMA just by changing sets.

    Alkosh -> BSW/Siroria
    Yolnakriin -> Mother Sorrow/Julianos/False God
    Mighty Chudan -> Grothdar/Ilambris/Zaan

    Can do the same in a vet dungeon (non DLC of course) and keep on tanking while doing ~25k DPS (not changing attributes btw).

    I suppose a DD can do the opposite BUT has to change skills/sets in a vet (on a normal it's not even a challenge and doesn't even need).

    A standard Tank most resistances comes from Heavy Armor/shield so DD could swap one set (I'd suggest monster set) in something like Chudan+Lord Warden (or chudan only if you not using an active source of Major ward/protection).

    That and knowing when to block/roll should suffice
  • AgaTheGreat
    AgaTheGreat
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    There's no point having a tank or healer in a normal dungeon. There's no point running like a headless chicken because a boss is chasing you. Learn to block, learn to doge roll. 4 DDs can easily do any normal dungeon, including some of the DLC ones. None of the bosses in any normal dungeons can really kill you if you block or dodge roll, or not even that. Sometimes they will just uppercut you / stun you and that's that. Self heal is key while pugging.

    Tank in a normal dungeon is a DPS loss. Why? Because nine out of ten times people who do a normal dungeon are new players or low level characters who just want experience because they're levelling up. With an additional DD it's faster. This game favours having a strong DPS because the sooner you burn and kill stuff, the less things you have to deal with or heal through. (not in all instances mind you, but most of the time).

    So if next time you've got a fake tank - block or dodge roll heavy attacks. They usually look as if a boss or an add is "gathering energy". You will be fine as soon as you understand what each boss or add is capable of.
  • NordSwordnBoard
    NordSwordnBoard
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    COA1 Vet

    I had a fake tank (I'm healing) with good dps but horrible situational awareness. Not sure if he was going for a speed run in a PUG, he didn't communicate until I trolled a bit. There were two level 200-250 DPS struggling with boss aggro, and got one-shot by the infernal guardian and other bosses. The boss right before the last one kept running all over the place. The DDs kept getting killed or kiting the boss, so when she went after me, I kept dragging her down the stairs to reset the fight. Just to slow it down and make a point about aggro.

    Tank: WTF?
    Me: Slot aggro ffs
    Tank: This dungeon is easy
    Me: Yes, for you & me but they are getting wrecked

    All the speediness was for naught, he skipped the flame atro boss. After milling about the door, we had to go back to kill it to enter the last area. Then we had to start the last boss over because he rushed in before reading the scroll (it was the daily). That must've sucked for the other two DDs at lower CP trying to do a vet dungeon. To see it get treated like a normal by a fake tank who made all sorts of stupid rookie mistakes was an awful example of 'leetness.

    Many fake tanks are on the far left of the Dunning-Kruger, giving the ethical/responsible ones bad rep. If this guy had one skill for taunting, the run would've been fine for all of us, even on vet.
    You can put any vehicle you want on the racetrack that is ESO, just don't blame anybody but yourself if your VW bus gets passed by a Ferrari.
  • Trinity_Is_My_Name
    Trinity_Is_My_Name
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    ToxicPAWS wrote: »
    Fake Tank= KICK AT THE LAST BOSS

    593b4e6e491ad99acb32a1c0beeca1fc.jpg

    LOL. I like it!
  • Trinity_Is_My_Name
    Trinity_Is_My_Name
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    I don't like Fake tanks at all. Kick em every time.
  • Noldornir
    Noldornir
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    COA1 Vet

    I had a fake tank (I'm healing) with good dps but horrible situational awareness. Not sure if he was going for a speed run in a PUG, he didn't communicate until I trolled a bit. There were two level 200-250 DPS struggling with boss aggro, and got one-shot by the infernal guardian and other bosses. The boss right before the last one kept running all over the place. The DDs kept getting killed or kiting the boss, so when she went after me, I kept dragging her down the stairs to reset the fight. Just to slow it down and make a point about aggro.

    Tank: WTF?
    Me: Slot aggro ffs
    Tank: This dungeon is easy
    Me: Yes, for you & me but they are getting wrecked

    All the speediness was for naught, he skipped the flame atro boss. After milling about the door, we had to go back to kill it to enter the last area. Then we had to start the last boss over because he rushed in before reading the scroll (it was the daily). That must've sucked for the other two DDs at lower CP trying to do a vet dungeon. To see it get treated like a normal by a fake tank who made all sorts of stupid rookie mistakes was an awful example of 'leetness.

    Many fake tanks are on the far left of the Dunning-Kruger, giving the ethical/responsible ones bad rep. If this guy had one skill for taunting, the run would've been fine for all of us, even on vet.

    That's not a fake tank issue IMO.

    Just an ***hole player who thinks himself as the big hero.

    It's like when DDs start running around regardless of where you are pulling everything (maybe they still does not know there's no area-taunt in ESO) grab the aggro and whipe (just to complain on tank/healer).

    CoA 1 is rly EZ, that's true but "easy" has nothing to do with taunt.

    Taunted enemies tend to stiick in a position and are easily nukable.
    Untaunted enemies tend to follow the DD/healer who's kiting them constantly moving and getting out from AoE like endless hail or WoE.

    Beside if that's so easy and you are the healer just stop healing him next time and if he complains tells him that this dungeon is "too easy" to deserve some heals. Slot Radiant aura, Radiant oppression, spears whatever is not intended for healing and spam those in front of him for his happyness^^
  • Misreal
    Misreal
    Soul Shriven
    Fake Tank- "This dungeons is nothing, easy peasy. LOL!"

    Healer- "If this fake tank gets one shotted by this trash mob for 75% again, I'll be OOM and let the fool die."

    DPS- "Sure getting sick of these fake tanks who can't pull or hold aggro. I can't even do half my usual DPS or I'll pull aggro....AGAIN!"

  • Jaimeh
    Jaimeh
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    For an easy random normal, a taunt is enough, and if the fake tank in question knows when to block, and doesn't kite boss out of AoE's, then he/she's not doing something different than an actual tank, while contributing to damage, which is nice. DLC dungeons would need more health and mitigation than what a DD would normally have. However, when I encounter fake tanks, it's hardly ever that they meet these bare minimums, and it's usually just a DD that just runs ahead and burns everything. I'm guilty of fake tanking sometimes, when the queue takes particularly long, or when farming for gear, but I usually slot a taunt; having said that, even when someone uses a taunt, I still think it's inconsiderate to others, especially if they are new players, purely for the reason that it throws them off, and makes the run messy from their perspective. The actual ethical thing would be a taunt, some form of crowd control, and mitigation, which would then make the player an actual tank :)
    Edited by Jaimeh on July 21, 2019 9:26PM
    @stargold

    PC/NA CP810

    AD Nefelyn - Altmer Sorcerer - DD ǀ The Flawless Conqueror ǀ Master Angler ǀ Hero of all the things (fine, some of the things)
    DC Bastiene - Breton Templar - Healer ǀ The Flawless Conqueror ǀ Prefect ǀ Blackrose Executioner
    AD Niobeh - Dunmer Nightblade - DD ǀ The Flawless Conqueror ǀ Black Market Mogul ǀ Blackrose Executioner ǀ Master Thief ǀ Silencer (but we don’t talk about that)
    AD Ashayam - Khajiit Sorcerer - DD ǀ The Flawless Conqueror
    DC Sydhe Narjes - Redguard Nightblade - DD ǀ The Flawless Conqueror ǀ Blackrose Executioner
    DC Eva Saint Claire - Breton Warden - Healer ǀ The Flawless Conqueror
    EP Rruns-With-Scissors ­- Argonian Dragoknight - Tank ǀ He’s a good boy, OK Bront?
    EP Moiranni Deyr - Dunmer Dragonknight - Healer ǀ The Flawless Conqueror
    DC Anur Imagua - Redguard Templar - DD ǀ The Flawless Conqueror
    AD Azoke Sen - Imperial Sorcerer - Tank ǀ The Flawless Conqueror
    DC Sàverin - Orc Warden - DD ǀ The Flawless Conqueror ǀ Blackrose Executioner
    DC Zuwane Okoye - Redguard Dragonknight - DD ǀ The Flawless Conqueror
    DC Telella - Orc Nightblade - DD ǀ The more the merrier ǀ Dro-m'athra Destroyer ǀ The Flawless Conqueror
    DC Mal the Ghost Whisperer - Orc Necromancer - DD ǀ The Flawless Conqueror



    PC/EU CP603

    AD Ariadne Nearil - Altmer Sorcerer - DD ǀ The Flawless Conqueror
    EP Máyim - Dunmer Nightblade - DD ǀ The Flawless Conqueror
    DC Surjan - Orc Nightblade - DD ǀ The Flawless Conqueror

    vSO HM · vAA HM · vHRC HM · vMOL HM · vHOF HM · vAS HM · vCR+2 · vSS+2· vDSA · vBRP

    It's not zerging if we are all solo and just happen to go to the same place independently xD
  • es4eva
    es4eva
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    I would rather run a normal dungeon with three than let a fake tank run with us. It's the principle of the matter. Rewarding queue jumpers by allowing them to get away with it just reinforces that behavior. If you aren't holding aggro, not taunting, running ahead, I'm voting to boot you. Luckily, I have a core group of 3 of us who play together, so the vote always passes.

    Now, if we pick someone else up, discuss it before hand, and come to an agreement about it, that's different. I've done plenty of dungeons that way, with 3 DPS and a healer or whatever. But if you just expect me to suck it up and be inconvenienced because YOU don't want to be inconvenienced by a wait in the queue, sorry, you're getting booted.
  • es4eva
    es4eva
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    Jaimeh wrote: »
    For an easy random normal, a taunt is enough, and if the fake tank in question knows when to block, and doesn't kite boss out of AoE's, then he/she's not doing something different than an actual tank, while contributing to damage, which is nice. DLC dungeons would need more health and mitigation than what a DD would normally have. However, when I encounter fake tanks, it's hardly ever that they meet these bare minimums, and it's usually just a DD that just runs ahead and burns everything. I'm guilty of fake tanking sometimes, when the queue takes particularly long, or when farming for gear, but I usually slot a taunt; having said that, even when someone uses a taunt, I still think it's inconsiderate to others, especially if they are new players, purely for the reason that it throws them off, and makes the run messy from their perspective. The actual ethical thing would be a taunt, some form of crowd control, and mitigation, which would then make the player an actual tank :)

    If they're doing at least the bare minimum that a tank is supposed to be doing, then they aren't a "fake tank"...they might be a less than optimal build, off-meta, unorthodox, etc, but I'm ok with that.
  • Minyassa
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    That's a really reasonable and well though out essay. My cynicism makes me believe that it's lost on its target audience. It's hard for me to believe that anyone who is willing to screw over other players because they're in a hurry is someone who cares about doing anything helpful for anyone. If someone can't be bothered to wait for a long queue OR actually play a tank if they're in that much of a hurry, I don't think they're going to be bothered to make any changes to mitigate the problems their impatience or laziness causes. I'd be delighted to be proved wrong in this.

    Edited by Minyassa on July 26, 2019 8:16AM
  • Bored_Owl
    Bored_Owl
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    My fake tank experiences:
    I once got one of the *** fake-tanks in Fungal Grotto 1 while me and a friend were leveling our alts. Everyone in the group was below 50 except for this guy. He was doing damage, but wouldn't wait for people, and after my healer somehow ended up with aggro for most of the first boss fight, he blew up on us when my friend asked him whether he had a taunt slotted. He then ran ahead of everyone while we were fighting the first druegh boss, killed the last boss by himself and left the group.

    PSA for Fake Tanks: If you're going into beginner dungeons, you're almost certainly not gonna get an optimal group, so perform the role you signed up for and slot. a freaking. taunt. Otherwise pulling off the speed-run you so desperately want is even less likely than it was to start with.

    Sincerely, the healer who has to keep the baby toons alive in the face of untaunted bosses

    Note: The PSA doesn't apply if you're new and aren't sure of the different roles (in which case, please let the group know and we'll help)
    Divine Knight of Đivination
    Sergeant-at-Arms of the Pride of Daggerfall
  • wishlist14
    wishlist14
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    Most dungeons I group up with my tank partner and the healer or dps run ahead and fake tank so we just do our own thing now. It once enraged us but what can you do? It's an absolute joke.

    Let's be honest here, tanks get used in dungeons just to get into a group because most dont respect the tank
    Tanks are more valued at end game.
    So basically a tank gets to learn tanking in trials or if he's lucky vet dungeons.
    Normal dungeons are a circus.
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