The Ethics of Fake Tanking

msalvia

We've all been there...we queue up for a random dungeon and end up with the 13k health, bow/bow light attacker tank. Mabye they're a level 15 that sincerely doesn't understand dungeons--if so, be kind and explain. Or maybe they're just a crappy player who wants to skip the queue--plenty of those max cp power levelers out there who think they can hang because overland content is training wheels difficulty. And of course they do it--most people are too passive to kick someone who is gaming the queue.

But, when done right, fake tanking can be a good thing for the random NORMAL (vet is a different story) queue, but if--and only if--1) these fake tanks bring the bare minimum of the tank role to the party, and 2) other players stop being afraid to kick a horrible fake tank.

First, here are the skills a fake tank needs to bring to the party:
1. A taunt (at the very least inner fire, but how hard is it to slot a shield on one bar for puncture?)
2. 20k health. A tank getting 1 shot in normal dungeons is pathetic
3. some basic crowd control (most classes have some of this, but if not there's ice staff WoE and fighter's guild silver leash
4. Enough armor, resists, self- heals, sustain to not die. Basically every class has access to major resolve and some heals; slot them
5. The ability to hold the boss/elite enemies in one place (so don't be Dragon Leaping stuff out of the aoe, fake DK tanks)
6. Some dps of your own. Don't fake tank a dungeon as a dps and do tank-level dps (i.e. 4k or so)

That's it. That's not much of an ask to skip a queue...if players are too lazy to wait in the queue, at least be able to do some of what a tank should do. This helps to address the tank shortage without completely rewarding queue jumping, and let's face it, a tank isn't really needed in norms (but at the every least someone needs to taunt and CC stuff).

FOR THOSE OF US ENDURING THE FAKE TANK: If they're doing the basic job of a tank and contributing some dps of their own, let them stay. At the least, they recognized that they aren't a tank build and care enough to do some of the job while helping the team clear the dungeon faster. And if they're clearly new to the game, I beg you, be kind and explain to them. They're probably desperate to learn, and there's a lot to know in this game that isn't well-explained with no previous MMO experience.

BUT PLEASE START KICKING HORRIBLE FAKE TANKS. PLEASE. Don't be a jerk about it, but please recognize It's for the best for everyone. I know there are so many non-confrontational people around that this is unrealistic, but we can't just keep rewarding crap behavior. In what setting are people allowed to cut in line without getting sent to the back? Jerks thrive on the knowledge that lots of people will just take crap rather than say something, and this enables the behavior.

TLDR; We should expect fake tanks to perform at least some of the role (at the very least, slot a taunt and don't die), or we should stop being passive and kick them (except for new people, we should teach them the ropes). I'm more irritated by groups that refuse to kick than the horrible fake tanks themselves at this point . Refusing to kick someone who has proven to be a horrible fake tank basically says "I'm ok with this person skipping the queue, and I don't care that the other 2 players are going to have a bad time. Let's carry this fake tank instead of standing up for ourselves."

NOTE: I never, ever advocate kicking people based on their level, class, race choice, etc. Always give people a chance to perform.

El_Borracho

First off, I agree that kicking on level, etc is weak. I also don't think kicking someone from a normal is appropriate 99% of the time. But I think you just identified the one time when it is appropriate.

Your whole argument falls apart if you don't have 2 competent DPS. Most of the time, the fake tank jumps in and there is at least one DPS that can destroy all in a normal dungeon. I've run many normals on topped-out alternate characters because its a quick way to get skill points. Its pretty easy to do in a non-DLC dungeon. To the point I wait up for lower level/new players to catch up who are trying to learn the dungeon.

But, if a fake tank gets into a normal with 1 healer and 2 DPS, and the whole lot is a bunch of new players unfamiliar with dungeons, how does having a fake tank help anyone? You have a tank that is not a tank, who gets exposed immediately because of the lack of DPS. The healer now shoulders the burden, but we all know that can only last so long when the DPS is not there. And the DPS suffer as they are now running all over the place because the tank is not tanking. Its not a situation where you can teach, learn, or have a good time.

I'm not saying it can't be done. And I would hope most of these "fake tanks" doing normals are actually very competent DPS. But there is a difference between a new tank and a fake tank. One is trying to tank. The other is selfishly jumping the queue and praying there is a DPS or two to cover for his ineptitude. With the latter happening more often than the former.

VaranisArano

On normal difficulty, anyone who uses a taunt and doesnt die is an actual tank.

Its the DDs who roll in with no taunt and "I'm gonna hold boss aggro with my amazing DPS" that annoy me. Their DPS is never enough, my healer or inevitably the squishiest DD in the party end up tanking the boss, and it just emds with me thinking "I should have just run on my tank after all."

msalvia

El_Borracho wrote: »

I'm not saying it can't be done. And I would hope most of these "fake tanks" doing normals are actually very competent DPS. But there is a difference between a new tank and a fake tank. One is trying to tank. The other is selfishly jumping the queue and praying there is a DPS or two to cover for his ineptitude. With the latter happening more often than the former.

I actually fully agree with you. And my original point (which likely didn't come through as clearly as I had hoped) was that these fake tanks ARE typically competent dps.That was my final point about "bringing some dps of your own" if you're gonna fake tank. I can't even imagine a group of three dps who can't clear FG1 or BC1, but that group isn't gonna be much (if at all) better with a "real" tank doing no damage. My whole point was that if you're looking at a squishy fake tank with no taunt, no CC, and no dps, they should be kicked. And I hate kicking people, but fake tanking at this level is worthy of a boot.

Noldornir

I'm main tank (DK).

I clear vMA just by changing sets.

Alkosh -> BSW/Siroria
Yolnakriin -> Mother Sorrow/Julianos/False God
Mighty Chudan -> Grothdar/Ilambris/Zaan

Can do the same in a vet dungeon (non DLC of course) and keep on tanking while doing ~25k DPS (not changing attributes btw).

I suppose a DD can do the opposite BUT has to change skills/sets in a vet (on a normal it's not even a challenge and doesn't even need).

A standard Tank most resistances comes from Heavy Armor/shield so DD could swap one set (I'd suggest monster set) in something like Chudan+Lord Warden (or chudan only if you not using an active source of Major ward/protection).

That and knowing when to block/roll should suffice

AgaTheGreat

There's no point having a tank or healer in a normal dungeon. There's no point running like a headless chicken because a boss is chasing you. Learn to block, learn to doge roll. 4 DDs can easily do any normal dungeon, including some of the DLC ones. None of the bosses in any normal dungeons can really kill you if you block or dodge roll, or not even that. Sometimes they will just uppercut you / stun you and that's that. Self heal is key while pugging.

Tank in a normal dungeon is a DPS loss. Why? Because nine out of ten times people who do a normal dungeon are new players or low level characters who just want experience because they're levelling up. With an additional DD it's faster. This game favours having a strong DPS because the sooner you burn and kill stuff, the less things you have to deal with or heal through. (not in all instances mind you, but most of the time).

So if next time you've got a fake tank - block or dodge roll heavy attacks. They usually look as if a boss or an add is "gathering energy". You will be fine as soon as you understand what each boss or add is capable of.

VaranisArano

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

There's no point having a tank or healer in a normal dungeon. There's no point running like a headless chicken because a boss is chasing you. Learn to block, learn to doge roll. 4 DDs can easily do any normal dungeon, including some of the DLC ones. None of the bosses in any normal dungeons can really kill you if you block or dodge roll, or not even that. Sometimes they will just uppercut you / stun you and that's that. Self heal is key while pugging.

Tank in a normal dungeon is a DPS loss. Why? Because nine out of ten times people who do a normal dungeon are new players or low level characters who just want experience because they're levelling up. With an additional DD it's faster. This game favours having a strong DPS because the sooner you burn and kill stuff, the less things you have to deal with or heal through. (not in all instances mind you, but most of the time).

So if next time you've got a fake tank - block or dodge roll heavy attacks. They usually look as if a boss or an add is "gathering energy". You will be fine as soon as you understand what each boss or add is capable of.

Nine out of ten people who do a normal dungeon are new players or low level characters who want experience.

Who generally don't have ideal builds.
Who may not have self-healing unlocked or know how to do it effectively.
Who may not know the dungeon well.
Who may not be "fine" because they don't yet understand the boss or adds.

Who might actually benefit from having a tank with a taunt to hold boss aggro.


By all means, bring a DD and slot Inner Fire so you can actually hold boss aggro if you want to not have DPS loss from having a tank. But good grief, don't act like you are doing every single group you fake tank for a huge favor. You aren't. As an experienced player, most of the time you are just dumping your job on someone else who maybe can and maybe can't do it, and once they can't, its usually not any faster.

UrbanMonk

Fake Tank= KICK AT THE LAST BOSS

NordSwordnBoard

COA1 Vet

I had a fake tank (I'm healing) with good dps but horrible situational awareness. Not sure if he was going for a speed run in a PUG, he didn't communicate until I trolled a bit. There were two level 200-250 DPS struggling with boss aggro, and got one-shot by the infernal guardian and other bosses. The boss right before the last one kept running all over the place. The DDs kept getting killed or kiting the boss, so when she went after me, I kept dragging her down the stairs to reset the fight. Just to slow it down and make a point about aggro.

Tank: [snip]?
Me: Slot aggro [snip]
Tank: This dungeon is easy
Me: Yes, for you & me but they are getting wrecked

All the speediness was for naught, he skipped the flame atro boss. After milling about the door, we had to go back to kill it to enter the last area. Then we had to start the last boss over because he rushed in before reading the scroll (it was the daily). That must've sucked for the other two DDs at lower CP trying to do a vet dungeon. To see it get treated like a normal by a fake tank who made all sorts of stupid rookie mistakes was an awful example of 'leetness.

Many fake tanks are on the far left of the Dunning-Kruger, giving the ethical/responsible ones bad rep. If this guy had one skill for taunting, the run would've been fine for all of us, even on vet.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Trinity_Is_My_Name

ToxicPAWS wrote: »

Fake Tank= KICK AT THE LAST BOSS

LOL. I like it!

Trinity_Is_My_Name

I don't like Fake tanks at all. Kick em every time.

Noldornir

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

COA1 Vet

I had a fake tank (I'm healing) with good dps but horrible situational awareness. Not sure if he was going for a speed run in a PUG, he didn't communicate until I trolled a bit. There were two level 200-250 DPS struggling with boss aggro, and got one-shot by the infernal guardian and other bosses. The boss right before the last one kept running all over the place. The DDs kept getting killed or kiting the boss, so when she went after me, I kept dragging her down the stairs to reset the fight. Just to slow it down and make a point about aggro.

Tank: [snip]?
Me: Slot aggro [snip]
Tank: This dungeon is easy
Me: Yes, for you & me but they are getting wrecked

All the speediness was for naught, he skipped the flame atro boss. After milling about the door, we had to go back to kill it to enter the last area. Then we had to start the last boss over because he rushed in before reading the scroll (it was the daily). That must've sucked for the other two DDs at lower CP trying to do a vet dungeon. To see it get treated like a normal by a fake tank who made all sorts of stupid rookie mistakes was an awful example of 'leetness.

Many fake tanks are on the far left of the Dunning-Kruger, giving the ethical/responsible ones bad rep. If this guy had one skill for taunting, the run would've been fine for all of us, even on vet.

That's not a fake tank issue IMO.

Just an [snip] player who thinks himself as the big hero.

It's like when DDs start running around regardless of where you are pulling everything (maybe they still does not know there's no area-taunt in ESO) grab the aggro and whipe (just to complain on tank/healer).

CoA 1 is rly EZ, that's true but "easy" has nothing to do with taunt.

Taunted enemies tend to stiick in a position and are easily nukable.
Untaunted enemies tend to follow the DD/healer who's kiting them constantly moving and getting out from AoE like endless hail or WoE.

Beside if that's so easy and you are the healer just stop healing him next time and if he complains tells him that this dungeon is "too easy" to deserve some heals. Slot Radiant aura, Radiant oppression, spears whatever is not intended for healing and spam those in front of him for his happyness^^

[edited for profanity bypass & to remove quote]

Misreal

Fake Tank- "This dungeons is nothing, easy peasy. LOL!"

Healer- "If this fake tank gets one shotted by this trash mob for 75% again, I'll be OOM and let the fool die."

DPS- "Sure getting sick of these fake tanks who can't pull or hold aggro. I can't even do half my usual DPS or I'll pull aggro....AGAIN!"

Jaimeh

For an easy random normal, a taunt is enough, and if the fake tank in question knows when to block, and doesn't kite boss out of AoE's, then he/she's not doing something different than an actual tank, while contributing to damage, which is nice. DLC dungeons would need more health and mitigation than what a DD would normally have. However, when I encounter fake tanks, it's hardly ever that they meet these bare minimums, and it's usually just a DD that just runs ahead and burns everything. I'm guilty of fake tanking sometimes, when the queue takes particularly long, or when farming for gear, but I usually slot a taunt; having said that, even when someone uses a taunt, I still think it's inconsiderate to others, especially if they are new players, purely for the reason that it throws them off, and makes the run messy from their perspective. The actual ethical thing would be a taunt, some form of crowd control, and mitigation, which would then make the player an actual tank

es4eva

I would rather run a normal dungeon with three than let a fake tank run with us. It's the principle of the matter. Rewarding queue jumpers by allowing them to get away with it just reinforces that behavior. If you aren't holding aggro, not taunting, running ahead, I'm voting to boot you. Luckily, I have a core group of 3 of us who play together, so the vote always passes.

Now, if we pick someone else up, discuss it before hand, and come to an agreement about it, that's different. I've done plenty of dungeons that way, with 3 DPS and a healer or whatever. But if you just expect me to suck it up and be inconvenienced because YOU don't want to be inconvenienced by a wait in the queue, sorry, you're getting booted.

es4eva

Jaimeh wrote: »

For an easy random normal, a taunt is enough, and if the fake tank in question knows when to block, and doesn't kite boss out of AoE's, then he/she's not doing something different than an actual tank, while contributing to damage, which is nice. DLC dungeons would need more health and mitigation than what a DD would normally have. However, when I encounter fake tanks, it's hardly ever that they meet these bare minimums, and it's usually just a DD that just runs ahead and burns everything. I'm guilty of fake tanking sometimes, when the queue takes particularly long, or when farming for gear, but I usually slot a taunt; having said that, even when someone uses a taunt, I still think it's inconsiderate to others, especially if they are new players, purely for the reason that it throws them off, and makes the run messy from their perspective. The actual ethical thing would be a taunt, some form of crowd control, and mitigation, which would then make the player an actual tank

If they're doing at least the bare minimum that a tank is supposed to be doing, then they aren't a "fake tank"...they might be a less than optimal build, off-meta, unorthodox, etc, but I'm ok with that.

Minyassa

That's a really reasonable and well though out essay. My cynicism makes me believe that it's lost on its target audience. It's hard for me to believe that anyone who is willing to screw over other players because they're in a hurry is someone who cares about doing anything helpful for anyone. If someone can't be bothered to wait for a long queue OR actually play a tank if they're in that much of a hurry, I don't think they're going to be bothered to make any changes to mitigate the problems their impatience or laziness causes. I'd be delighted to be proved wrong in this.

Bored_Owl

My fake tank experiences:
I once got one of the *** fake-tanks in Fungal Grotto 1 while me and a friend were leveling our alts. Everyone in the group was below 50 except for this guy. He was doing damage, but wouldn't wait for people, and after my healer somehow ended up with aggro for most of the first boss fight, he blew up on us when my friend asked him whether he had a taunt slotted. He then ran ahead of everyone while we were fighting the first druegh boss, killed the last boss by himself and left the group.

PSA for Fake Tanks: If you're going into beginner dungeons, you're almost certainly not gonna get an optimal group, so perform the role you signed up for and slot. a freaking. taunt. Otherwise pulling off the speed-run you so desperately want is even less likely than it was to start with.

Sincerely, the healer who has to keep the baby toons alive in the face of untaunted bosses

Note: The PSA doesn't apply if you're new and aren't sure of the different roles (in which case, please let the group know and we'll help)

wishlist14

Most dungeons I group up with my tank partner and the healer or dps run ahead and fake tank so we just do our own thing now. It once enraged us but what can you do? It's an absolute joke.

Let's be honest here, tanks get used in dungeons just to get into a group because most dont respect the tank
Tanks are more valued at end game.
So basically a tank gets to learn tanking in trials or if he's lucky vet dungeons.
Normal dungeons are a circus.

Betty_Booms

I "fake tank" normals on my stam dk. I slot inner fire into my rotation and vigor. I dont need heals. I have 17k health which is plenty.

Run DW and bow with bloodcraze etc so i self heal fine and still do about 40-50k on bosses.

If Im holding agro, healing myself and not dieing whilst doing 70% of the dps and I get kicked...then I truly dont know how to please those people...

SoLooney

How many players under level 50 are gonna have inner fire unlocked?

Expecting below 50 players to meet certain requirements is completely stupid. I'll admit they should still queue for their proper roles but tbh, 4 dps are gonna steamroll dungeons way faster and efficiently than having a tank and a healer unless the player is just uber bad or a complete squish with no armor

If you're a player who runs normal dungeons and complains about a fake tank, you got bigger issues. If you're that bad that you need a true tank on normals, big yikes

VaranisArano

SoLooney wrote: »

How many players under level 50 are gonna have inner fire unlocked?

Expecting below 50 players to meet certain requirements is completely stupid. I'll admit they should still queue for their proper roles but tbh, 4 dps are gonna steamroll dungeons way faster and efficiently than having a tank and a healer unless the player is just uber bad or a complete squish with no armor

If you're a player who runs normal dungeons and complains about a fake tank, you got bigger issues. If you're that bad that you need a true tank on normals, big yikes

And yet you and every fake tank I've met in normal dungeons expect that their below 50 random group mates should be universally capable of face tanking the boss in addition to healing or DPS so that the fake tank doesnt have to bother with holding boss aggro, the most basic part of the job of a tank.

Interesting.

svendf

Had a fake tank yesterday in Fang Lair, plegde run. we were three cp 800+ tank teamed with healer (guess why lol) his dps looked ok he went down twice on the road to final boss .

At final boss he made group wipe twice. boss was glued to me - just went shield and block and hoped to go down.

If they cant be kicked because the are teamed up I go for death and refuse rez. On this run I had a friend with me so death was no go on this run.

Fake`s are rude player`s with no respect for other´s (respect for other´s go hand in hand with selfrespect). It was my last run so just wanted to get it over with.

Player name taken and have plans for that player in the future

Partomax

I always queue as fake tank/heal on my main DD for normal dungeons. I've got 41k dps on 3 million self buffed, it's not the best but I think it's good enough to replace a tank.

Support roles in dungeons, even veteran, are often unnecessary since high DPS allows your to burn through most mechanics even in some DLC dungeons like vRoM you can easily do HM, no death speedruns just with 4 experienced DDs.

I am often dealing 80%+ group DPS as a fake tank, this is not bragging since people are often leveling and I have a full endgame build, it's just an observation. I am much more valuable than any tank could be, I am there reducing the time it would take to finish the dungeon from >20 minutes to <10 and often nobody dies because there's nobody to kill them.

I'm sorry if this offends people and tank mains in general but random normals are a joke and there's no situation where a support role would be more valuable to a group than 40k+ dps and I'm not going to burn 20+ minutes of my xp boost waiting in queue so I can do some Fungal Grotto I in 8 minutes. Not to mention it's even faster if I queue as tank because then it's 3 DDs.

I fully agree that you should only queue as tank if you can be of more use than a tank would be, but if you meet that criteria people complaining just seem whiny. Everytime I queue as DD or heal I hope there is a fake tank with high DPS so we can finish twice as fast.

Veinblood1965

Hmm

Veinblood1965

>>>https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/493348/fake-tanks-are-paying-for-my-eso-subscription-and-eso-plus#latest

svendf

I like the post above, it´s honest it gives a good insight on the thinking level. It´s given that there is no room for player´s, who deliver gameplay under a given levvel - player´s who level up or just unlocked a new dungeon and running for the first time.

There´s alot of talk about dps. Skilled player´s dont talk about dps public on forums (that´s something keept private on group level).

Maybe Zos thould have a look at these issues surounding fake tanks and speedrunner´s, who gives low level player´s a hard time. It´s given that another nerf run could be an option they are looking at to " balance" even more.

I would love to see player´s who have problems controllig their mighty dps weapon on a more mature level , that they could run their adventure within a closed group if they have to run norm dungeon´s

The dungeon´s have been setup to be run with a healer, tank and two dds. I dont think zos will lleave that road as it will or can make some rolls absolete.

I´m sure Zos know´s what is going on and more nerfs coming if some player´s can´t controll them self´s.

Sorry for my bad english.

VaranisArano

Partomax wrote: »

I always queue as fake tank/heal on my main DD for normal dungeons. I've got 41k dps on 3 million self buffed, it's not the best but I think it's good enough to replace a tank.

Support roles in dungeons, even veteran, are often unnecessary since high DPS allows your to burn through most mechanics even in some DLC dungeons like vRoM you can easily do HM, no death speedruns just with 4 experienced DDs.

I am often dealing 80%+ group DPS as a fake tank, this is not bragging since people are often leveling and I have a full endgame build, it's just an observation. I am much more valuable than any tank could be, I am there reducing the time it would take to finish the dungeon from >20 minutes to <10 and often nobody dies because there's nobody to kill them.

I'm sorry if this offends people and tank mains in general but random normals are a joke and there's no situation where a support role would be more valuable to a group than 40k+ dps and I'm not going to burn 20+ minutes of my xp boost waiting in queue so I can do some Fungal Grotto I in 8 minutes. Not to mention it's even faster if I queue as tank because then it's 3 DDs.

I fully agree that you should only queue as tank if you can be of more use than a tank would be, but if you meet that criteria people complaining just seem whiny. Everytime I queue as DD or heal I hope there is a fake tank with high DPS so we can finish twice as fast.

Do you hold boss aggro consistently with a taunt?

If you don't, then you can make that dungeon run go fast, fast, fast, but I'm still going to be gritting my teeth if my healer is face tanking the boss because you can't be bothered.

Do the job you queued up for. Don't dump the part of the job you don't want on someone else. Someone has to hold boss aggro, and its supposed to be the tank.


If you do hold boss aggro, congrats. You're a real tank. Or what passes for one in normal dungeons.

El_Borracho

Partomax wrote: »

I always queue as fake tank/heal on my main DD for normal dungeons. I've got 41k dps on 3 million self buffed, it's not the best but I think it's good enough to replace a tank.

Support roles in dungeons, even veteran, are often unnecessary since high DPS allows your to burn through most mechanics even in some DLC dungeons like vRoM you can easily do HM, no death speedruns just with 4 experienced DDs.

I am often dealing 80%+ group DPS as a fake tank, this is not bragging since people are often leveling and I have a full endgame build, it's just an observation. I am much more valuable than any tank could be, I am there reducing the time it would take to finish the dungeon from >20 minutes to <10 and often nobody dies because there's nobody to kill them.

I'm sorry if this offends people and tank mains in general but random normals are a joke and there's no situation where a support role would be more valuable to a group than 40k+ dps and I'm not going to burn 20+ minutes of my xp boost waiting in queue so I can do some Fungal Grotto I in 8 minutes. Not to mention it's even faster if I queue as tank because then it's 3 DDs.

I fully agree that you should only queue as tank if you can be of more use than a tank would be, but if you meet that criteria people complaining just seem whiny. Everytime I queue as DD or heal I hope there is a fake tank with high DPS so we can finish twice as fast.

Yes, how dare anyone get in the way of your enjoyment, in an MMO. After all, you have an xp boost to worry about. Gots to get to CP 912, yo!

You're in a normal dungeon. Which means there are very low level people in there. You should be doing 80% of the DPS in there if you are a maxed DPS.

If you queue as a tank, TANK, even its just throwing out a taunt at the boss while you flex your random normal dungeon prowess.

Grianasteri

Interesting OP and thread.

Firstly, in principle I disagree with fake tank queuing, unless you are a pre-made group.

Personally, as an 810 player, most of my characters can breeze through most normal dungeons, including my tonks and healers, so there is no real need for a tonk (or a healer for that mattet, sadly). This will be the case for many high CP players who can self sustain and avoid mechanics.

For low-mid CPs and of course sub lvl 50 players, there are plenty of mechanics that can be an issue, even in normal dungeons. So I agree, if one has to fake the bare minimum must be the ability to taunt and maintain aggro, while surviving mechanics.

I would say of equal concern, is the ethics surrounding high dps players beasting through dungeons while the low/mid level players struggle to literally keep up &/or complete the story content within the dungeon. There is precicely zero fun just running behind some idiot sprinting off into the distance and taking everything out before you get a sniff. I recall this happening to me many times when I was still progressing through my CPs and improving as a player.

Personally, I never queue with fake roles. I tank, I heal, I dps and I que accordingly. I also never run off ahead of my group. I wait for the yougnlings to catch up, to finish their content, to contribute. Its just manners. It only takes a few more mins.

Vet content of course, is an entirely different bowl of broth. No one should be fake queuing but you do still get it. Its incredibly frustrating if your character cannot self sustain or you are unfamiliar with a dungeon (not such an issue for me personally but think again about low level younglings), and you get a fake healer or tonk.

Basically I vote to kick and I think more people need to be open to doing this. But please think carefully before you do. Are they learning? Have you constructively pointed out any issues first?

msalvia

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

There's no point having a tank or healer in a normal dungeon. There's no point running like a headless chicken because a boss is chasing you. Learn to block, learn to doge roll. 4 DDs can easily do any normal dungeon, including some of the DLC ones. None of the bosses in any normal dungeons can really kill you if you block or dodge roll, or not even that. Sometimes they will just uppercut you / stun you and that's that. Self heal is key while pugging.

Tank in a normal dungeon is a DPS loss. Why? Because nine out of ten times people who do a normal dungeon are new players or low level characters who just want experience because they're levelling up. With an additional DD it's faster. This game favours having a strong DPS because the sooner you burn and kill stuff, the less things you have to deal with or heal through. (not in all instances mind you, but most of the time).

So if next time you've got a fake tank - block or dodge roll heavy attacks. They usually look as if a boss or an add is "gathering energy". You will be fine as soon as you understand what each boss or add is capable of.

So basically, you're saying that fake tanking is totally fine, even if that fake tanks doesn't taunt? In principle, I agree that a true tank is not needed in norms--but a tank with serious buffs might actually be a dps GAIN over a 3rd, weak dps. And keep in mind, we're talking normals, the dungeons most likely to populated by new players--y'know, exactly the players that could use a competent tank. If you're level 10 and getting attacked by the boss, we can't reasonably expect them to deal with that. That's literally what I mean by "excusing crap behavior." That would never fly IRL, it shouldn't fly in ESO either. I don't know how anyone can disagree with this on the merits.