Let's talk about ESO Skill vs Esports Skill

WeylandLabs

I feel our community has been taking eso too seriously lately. And needs to lighten up a lil, now with this said I just going to leave this here to let you all process this info and let you make your own conclusion.

What is Skill based Gaming/Esports


In eSports, or competitive gaming, contestants compete against live opponents in video games, either online or in person. Players test their skills against friends and strangers alike to win prizes, but also for prestige and bragging rights. These games are carefully designed to avoid the application of gambling prohibitions by removing the chance elements. The leading sectors of skill-based gaming include fantasy sports, puzzle or strategy games, and “hardcore” games such as first‐person shooter and role-playing games.

The legality of pay-to-play eSports

Competitions that award prizes typically depends on them being classified as skill games by removing the element of chance. This determination is typically based on the relative degrees of skill and chance present in the game. Under the prevailing theory—the predominance test—one must envision a continuum with pure skill on one end and pure chance on the other. Unfortunately, although prevailing, the predominance test is not universal as states use a handful of tests when evaluating a game on the basis of skill vs. chance. Operators must therefore not only recognize that several types of chance exist but fully understand the various tests used by states to analyze chance or risk their services being found to constitute prohibited games of chance.


How are skill-based games different from chance-based games?

Games of skill require a physical or mental ability and a learned capacity to carry out a result.

These games commonly include the use of strategy, tactic, physical coordination, strength, technical expertise, or knowledge.

Games of chance are games with an outcome strongly influenced by random chance or uncertainty.

Common randomization devices include dice, playing cards, or numbered balls drawn from a container.

Games of chance may have some skill, and games of skill may have some chance, however, most U.S. courts use either the predominance test or the material element test to look at the role that skill and chance each take in determining the outcome of the game.



What is this test ? 😂👍




The Predominance Test

The predominance test is the most commonly used indicator of whether a game is skill- or chance-based. Under this test, one must envision a continuum with pure skill on one end and pure chance on the other. On the continuum, games such as chess would be almost at the pure skill end, while traditional slot machines would be at the pure chance end. Between these ends of the spectrum lie many activities containing both elements of skill and chance. A game is classified as a game of skill if the game falls predominantly closer to the skill end of the continuum.

Now I copy and pasted what I thought was relevant to this subject. I not own these partial ideas of what in witch is governed by law.

Sources

https://skillz.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/200620348-The-Legality-of-Skill-Gaming

https://www.lrrc.com/skill-based-gaming/esports

[snip]

[Edit for bait.]

xeNNNNN

Eh I guess?

Tbh I haven't noticed any of it really, couldnt understand the connection between esports and ESO until I got towards the bottom of the thread. I mean I guess its true? 0.o

Some people prefer MMOs though xD

Might as well of just said "Stop trying harding so much you're dragging everyone else down" xD

Mr_Walker

Esports tend to not have their traffic routed through Akamai....

RavenSworn

I agree with op. Mmos traditionally have never been in tuned with esports. First person shooters? Sure. Rts? Definitely. Even mobas? Of course. But Mmos never have, even when blizz started that arena thingy it just didn't shoot off like it should globally.

People take this game too seriously too, like all I see is "ZoS is gonna fail if they keep at this".

WeylandLabs

[Quoted post has been removed.]

Your asking me to elaborate on why is ESO players is taking it so serious that they think it's an Esport.

Yet I pointed out the factual stances. I'm confused on your take on this matter ? Because it seems you have none legitimate responses yet try to make this irrelevant.

[snip]

[Edit for bait.]

Mr_Walker

What's a "Pro" ESO player? Someone between jobs?

GeorgeBlack

Eso is:
1)Casual overland/crown store
2)Toxic PvE
3)small selection of meta pvp. Unplayable due to lag.
Nothing competitive

Mr_Walker

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Eso is:
1)Casual overland/crown store
2)Toxic PvE
3)small selection of meta pvp. Unplayable due to lag.

You missed "Toxic PvP"....

idk

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Eso is:
1)Casual overland/crown store
2)Toxic PvE
3)small selection of meta pvp. Unplayable due to lag.
Nothing competitive

I have yet to find PvE toxic with both my raiding guilds and the more social guild I am in. It may be the group you run with or you are dealing with random players in the GF.

Edit: this is not to suggest I haven not met toxic players in PvE. There are toxic players everywhere, but that does not make PvE toxic.

AlienatedGoat

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Eso is:
1)Casual overland/crown store
2)Toxic PvE
3)small selection of meta pvp. Unplayable due to lag.
Nothing competitive

1. Toxic 2. PvE

Pick one.

jainiadral

Shokasegambit1 wrote: »

[Quoted post has been removed.]

Your asking me to elaborate on why is ESO players is taking it so serious that they think it's an Esport.

Yet I pointed out the factual stances. I'm confused on your take on this matter ? Because it seems you have none legitimate responses yet try to make this irrelevant.

[snip]

[Edit for bait.]

I'm boggled that anyone other than pro Esport players takes Esports seriously

OTOH, I play ESO for fun. Hence I take it "seriously" enough to speak out about things that will make it less fun for me. I most definitely take it more seriously than Esports, which I couldn't give two craps about. That's not really saying much though

Minyassa

Interesting. I'd never heard of esports. Not surprising, I mean I ignore actual sportsball pretty much across the board and I'm not really interested in "the gaming community" at large. But I guess that stuff you posted would explain why there are so many people who seem absolutely cray cray about endgame shenanegins in this game. Honestly I think some people would do a lot better getting into BDSM, it's supposed to be pretty healthy for Type As who can't relax even in recreational activities.

GeorgeBlack

Pve is toxic.
Everybody is jealous of other classes.
PvP in eso is a different sort of comedy but not toxic. Pc eu

susmitds

You are making a few small but very vital mistakes.

Shokasegambit1 wrote: »

validated by people that sucked at actual Esports but are GODS in eso makes it not fun for the community imo.

Before, I address your statement, I will give a slight background to make my viewpoint a bit clearer. I am a former professional gamer of SRA, an asian professional CS:GO team, that has a pretty good track record at Asian CS:GO events (including runner-ups in ESL Asia). Sure, I might not be able to beat the best teams of NA or Europe but anyone with professional gaming history generally don't suck at esports. Some of us also play other games to avoid monotony and some of us choose to move away from professional esports as it sooner or later sucks all enjoyment out of gaming. Same as burnout but at a bigger scale as we generally invest a lot more time into the most boring parts of gaming compared to other gamers, who just play for fun. Others leave to pursue their careers in more traditional professions. It is quite common among former pros to end up playing games like ESO, which is a perfect blend of casual/hardcore gaming but we never really lose our hardcore nature.

I will assure, most of the ESO gods you speak of, will be at least decent in most esports involving reaction based gameplay. For eg, SypherPK became a Fortnite pro after leaving ESO.

Shokasegambit1 wrote: »

How are skill-based games different from chance-based games?

Games of chance may have some skill, and games of skill may have some chance, however, most U.S. courts use either the predominance test or the material element test to look at the role that skill and chance each take in determining the outcome of the game.

At least in the case of CS:GO(which is one of the largest esports with some highest viewerships in the FPS genre), you couldn't be more wrong.

CS:GO is mainly praised for overly complex gunplay mechanics, with each gun having different randomness factors. Yet, it is exactly this randomness around which skill rotates around. Every bullet shot relies on RNG to decide where the shot will land along extremely varied spray patterns and the more skilled you will reliably hit a target. The skill revolves around entire decreasing the scope of error for a particular situation.

Three of the most iconic skilled plays in CS:GO Majors revolve events with ridiculous amounts of luck involved, which Valve honored by making wall grafittis on the game itself. Two of them involved back-to-back multiple no-scopes while moving vertically, something that has below 1% chance of success for each individual shot.
https://www.pcgamer.com/the-legendary-csgo-plays-that-got-immortalised-in-the-form-of-map-graffiti/

So, it is a very wrong statement to say that skill-based games has very limited chance factors. Sometimes, chance factors are part of the skill.

sharquez

The only "professional ESO players" are any regular streamers that make enough to support themselves based on revenue gained from that. I think we can count them on one hand, if even? If you think people are taking the game too seriously you don't need a thesis to say so. Be concise.

That said I don't think ESO can begin to be taken seriously as an e-sport when it lacks any system for engaging in strictly organized PVP, and spectating, and general performance issue that exist without even having those things.

You want to address the real issue? It's simply bad behavior from certain people. It's not going anywhere unless they go somewhere else, and they will likely be replaced by more of the same.

eso_lags

Some people are competitive and take what they are doing serious.. Some even want to be good at it. And some people dont like it when a developer keeps shitting on the competitive aspect of their game, especially when it was competitive in the past but only gets less competitive over time because of bad choices and neglect.

I didnt bother reading your entire post. Just the title and the first line. I dont need to go further, but this is why I take the game serious. Well pvp anyway. Not because its an esport but because I like winning.

WeylandLabs

@susmitds

I knew it !

There are tons of you I bet on ESO now. 😂

It was just a thoery I had based on emotional feedback with trends and patterns for 5 years. And ESO didn't have any real identity as an MMO/RPG game back then. It was the posts I read that gave it away for balance and players trying to turn this game into something it will never be. And that's an Esport, ESO can never and will never be fixed enough to turn it into something you once were good at. And I feel a lot of older pro players are still hanging on to.

Rather your an Esport retired player or casual gamer play eso for what it is. Stop complaining 24/7 about nerfs and buffs and balance take that to actual Esports. Let ZOS do its thing, and there jobs were all not perfect and neither is any company on the planet.

I feel this is the reason why eso became so toxic in the first place. And what I posted above was from other websites so don't talk to me about I'm wrong, tell some of the the experts and the U.S courts they are.

But thank you for sharing, I'm a lil bit more happier. 👍

idk

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Pve is toxic.
Everybody is jealous of other classes.
PvP in eso is a different sort of comedy but not toxic. Pc eu

LOL. That is why people complain about other skills/weapon lines/classes in PvP and are fervent about their claims even when they provide nothing to back it up. LMAO that PvP players are not toxic but call PvE players out.

Cadbury

TIL there are Professional ESO players. Do they get sponsorships? I'd like to see a McDonalds ad with an ESO player.

Cavedog

"esports" are not sports. They are just different video games. There is no "sport" involved at any level.

rotaugen454

E-Sports= a way to justify your gaming obsession to your spouse. It doesn’t work...

ZOS_GregoryV

Greetings all,

We recently removed a few posts for being off topic and nonconstructive. We must remind everyone that all posts should be kept civil and constructive, as well as within the guidelines of the rules we have in place. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-

Sergykid

not sure that you know but WoW has periodical worldwide championship on 3v3 arenas. I watch them on youtube and i still marvel at their quality of pvp.

WeylandLabs

@eso_lags

Awesome feedback thank you -

May I ask :

What Are you necessarily winning ?

Money ? Bragging about a RNG fighting style ? Respect ? Being able to put a 1v1 on YouTube and humiliating that person ?

I'm sorry I just don't know what anybody is winning in this game, to take serious enough ?

eso_lags

Shokasegambit1 wrote: »

@eso_lags

Awesome feedback thank you -

May I ask :

What Are you necessarily winning ?

Money ? Bragging about a RNG fighting style ? Respect ? Being able to put a 1v1 on YouTube and humiliating that person ?

I'm sorry I just don't know what anybody is winning in this game, to take serious enough ?

very good question. I am winning everything. Satisfaction might be the best way to describe it. I find pvp fun and I want to win. For some people thats actually winning the campaign, for me its just one fight at a time. But I guess if you look at the combat in this game as "rng fighting style" then it might not be satisfying to win. Thats not how I look at it.

Its strategy, knowing your class, knowing your build, knowing your opponents class, knowing their build, experience in playing, knowing what to do in certain situations. Its like anything, you get better over time and if you keep playing. But rng? I think id have to ask you to back that up.

Ya zos has put some things in the game that are rng that someone could use in a build. Proc sets, whatever. Zos doesnt care about competitive players so they will keep doing things, and putting things in the game, to make the game less competitive. For example, the new cast times on ult. Because my reaction time is better, because im faster, I wont have THAT specific advantage anymore when it comes to my ult. Because they want people to play slower.

Performance is another thing. Their lack of maintaining this games performance has hurt competitive play in this game. Barely anyone plays solo anymore because when the game is lagging terribly, as it most often does, those intricate things you can do to get the upper hand in combat do not matter anymore. Numbers only matter when its lagging as bad as it normally does.

And you could ask the same thing of anyone who wants to be good at a hobby. The world isnt just people who do something to get paid. Ya thats great but if you're doing something you like you obviously want to be good at whatever it is you are doing. Hobby or not. And whatever that hobby is, you dont want to see it ruined.

Ysbriel

The Tamriel is cruel. And the only morality in a cruel world is chance. Unbiased, unprejudiced, fair.


But seriously i can’t connect the dots where chance influences winning in this game in terms of gambling. The only chance relatable is The RNG God’s blessings. I do see the potential of the Battlegrounds as an eSport. People taking this game seriously as talking about it failing is perhaps because a lot of other games have failed in some points people complain about when it comes to performance or sudden changes that affect both the competitive and fun factor of the game and worry it might happen here causing then to look for somewhere else to migrate to.

Linaleah

I didn;t realize that game of skill = MUST have competitive scene. there I thought that skill just referred to mechanics. mechanically - ESO is skill based. why? because 2 people with the same exact build (including race and CP) and gear setup - can have vastly different performance that is entirely dependent on their individual skill

Judas Helviaryn

This is all quite well and good, and just strengthens the argument that PEOPLE worshipping PEOPLE is never a healthy thing, and y'all need to stop treating this game like anything other than just that, a video game.

Linaleah wrote: »

I didn;t realize that game of skill = MUST have competitive scene. there I thought that skill just referred to mechanics. mechanically - ESO is skill based. why? because 2 people with the same exact build (including race and CP) and gear setup - can have vastly different performance that is entirely dependent on their individual skill

And competition doesn't have to mean pitting two players against one another in combat. You look hard enough, every little facet of the game is competitive. You strive to trade better, PVE better, make more gold, or whatever your goal is for the game, even if your goal isn't directly based on other players' achievements, you're still competing against them.

We're all on a leaderboard somewhere.

Heelie

I don't know if you're trying to take a shot at pve raiders.

Raiding is in no way competitive if you look at it from an esports point of view. But I don't think that undermines just how much skill it takes to play among the top guilds. I know at least 4 raiders on the PC scene that formerly played other pro esports such as mobas or shooters. As for pvp yeah it's not chess. But eso has a much fairer pvp scene than most MMOs, as most good gear is relatively easy to get. I also think that is why the pvp is popular.

Suggesting eso is anywhere the near chance level of a slot machine shows your lack of understanding of the source material more than anything else.

A good example is the tic rate of abilities. They're much higher than the two most competitive mobas which means the crit values are much truer in eso than those games thus less rng.

Huyen

True Esports games dont exist. The reason is simple.

A true esports game is balanced 100% so people will only be judged on their skill while playing, and dont instantly pick what is best through mechanics / RNG.

ESO doesnt fall into that catagory, nor does any other game around, due the complexity of balancing the games around several classes / characters / factions etc.

As long as we dont figure out how to let a cpu generate completely random numbers, instead of the patterns we have now, true Esports on skill wont exist. Every computer system is made, maintained and designed by humans. And humans make errors.

Runefang

I have read the OP several times and I still don't get it?

Where is ESO on the continuum based on your thinking? There is very little chance involved in ESO, so does that make it a skill-based game?

idk

Runefang wrote: »

I have read the OP several times and I still don't get it?

Where is ESO on the continuum based on your thinking? There is very little chance involved in ESO, so does that make it a skill-based game?

Unfortunately OP did not provide their thoughts in the OP but mostly just copied and pasted.

But yes, ESO is a skill based game when it comes to combat. If you are going up against a player or even with a group clearing a PvE trial it is tactics and skill that win the dame. The topic of esports is probably more distracting than anything else.