DK's Corrosive Armor vs 2H's Onslaught

Davadin

10sec of 100% pen for 200 ulti

vs

16sec of your target's resistance into penetration (a.k.a. 100% pen) for 150 ulti


(assuming the value of CA's DoT and damage reduction is approximately comparable to ON's initial damage hit)


I feel like Onslaught gives more bang for your ulti-bucks.... 16sec for 150 ulti, instead of 10 sec for 200 ulti. Yes, if u hit ON on a low resist target, u don't get as much pen against the heavy armor behind that dude... while CA gives everyone 100% penetration.

Thoughts?

susmitds

Corrosive Armor also has massive defensive bonuses.

Davadin

susmitds wrote: »

Corrosive Armor also has massive defensive bonuses.

but Onslaught have initial damage.... ?

susmitds

Davadin wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Corrosive Armor also has massive defensive bonuses.

but Onslaught have initial damage.... ?

Mitigation based ultimates always cost more than offensive ultimates.

Davadin

You're right.

Might worth swapping out 7th's gonna-b-nerfed wep damage with Spriggan's for MOAR PENETRATION....

jaws343

The problem is, Corrosive works against all targets and Onslaught is tied to your initial target for potency. If you get your kill against a 10K resist light armor build, you are only getting 10K pen.

leepalmer95

Davadin wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Corrosive Armor also has massive defensive bonuses.

but Onslaught have initial damage.... ?

Ones offensive and requires a target and it does depend on your targets stats. Also it can be dodged.

Ones defensive and can be self cast and basically makes you immortal.

Davadin

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Corrosive Armor also has massive defensive bonuses.

but Onslaught have initial damage.... ?

Ones offensive and requires a target and it does depend on your targets stats. Also it can be dodged.

Ones defensive and can be self cast and basically makes you immortal.

Could be just lag, but going head first into a middle of a zerg in Kaalgrontid campaign with Corrosive does NOT make you immortal.

3% is 3%, so when you got 20 people hitting you with DoTs, apparently you can still be killed.

PS: eeyyy can relate with having v16 char signature.

Lokey0024

Do you have to land the kill to get the pen?

Wing

the problem with onslaught has always been that it can be dodged, not a problem vs block tanks sure, but when you switch from DB to onslaught you very quickly notice your ult not landing.

add to that a brand new 4ms animation that cannot be avoided and a super loud "hey im using onslaught on you!" noise, meaning it will be VERY easy to just dodge anytime anyone tries to smack you with it.

using it on block tanks or people that cannot dodge, fine.

but dawnbreaker still beats it out on the "I need an ult that actually lands" and corrosive wins out on "this will actually work when I press the button"

Davadin

what part of Onslaught is now AoE?

and is Corrosive A. bug free now? wasn't there something buggy about the damage reduction not too long ago?

honestly I'm not a big fan of that skill. 200 ulti for mere 10 sec, and it's not like you're immortal for 10 sec. a good sized zerg can still burn you with just 3% damage. or maybe some damage aren't decreased because I've died a few times when CA is active....

on another note, i rarely miss my Onslaught because it's often part of a combo. by target either stunned or wouldn't notice in middle of chaos.

well, PTS finally finished in my laptop. guess I'll be testing it tonight!

Vortigaunt

jaws343 wrote: »

The problem is, Corrosive works against all targets and Onslaught is tied to your initial target for potency. If you get your kill against a 10K resist light armor build, you are only getting 10K pen.

Nobody in this game has 10k resists in pvp. Even light armor runs around with 16k. Adding 16k pen to your already like 10k pen is insane regardless, especially since it lasts 16 seconds and is cheaper (therefore insane uptime).

And who drops an ult on a 10k resists player, those drop from just spammable and executioner spam lol.

jaws343

Vortigaunt wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

The problem is, Corrosive works against all targets and Onslaught is tied to your initial target for potency. If you get your kill against a 10K resist light armor build, you are only getting 10K pen.

Nobody in this game has 10k resists in pvp. Even light armor runs around with 16k. Adding 16k pen to your already like 10k pen is insane regardless, especially since it lasts 16 seconds and is cheaper (therefore insane uptime).

And who drops an ult on a 10k resists player, those drop from just spammable and executioner spam lol.

Have you played this game? Targeting is unreliable when you are fighting a group and trying to single out a player. And plenty of players run awful resists, you see them all in those 1vx videos.

kalunte

dude, your original post sounds like you want to compare the two ults but you only want to compare the armor penetration buff they give. totally biased and not worth answering it.

one of the lowest whine post i've seen so far. why not compare Power of the light and Focused Aim since both give minor fracture?

Ragnaroek93

Onslaught looks op to be honest. Strong frontloaded burst + 100% penetration for 16 seconds is just too much imo.

DocFrost72

Corrosive: 100% pen on all targets for ten seconds.
Aoe poison dot damage.
Damage caps at 3% hp.
Can set Poisoned status effect.
Can be used with any weapon combo.

Onslaught: set value pen based on target, only if the target is hit.
Single target with a small aoe upfront, does one damage value and doesn't harm again.
Gives resistances which is more or less useless in pvp (depending on pen of your target and your resists, could be as little as 10k of that "26k" you hit that matters)
Gives you cc immunity instead of capping incoming damage. Great sometimes, useless if you're already on cooldown.
Must be used from a 2h bar.

Listing pros and cons out, I'd rather corrosive if I wanted just the pen. More reliable, and on and DK more ult = bigger heal and sustain boost.

Davadin

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Corrosive: 100% pen on all targets for ten seconds.
Aoe poison dot damage.
Damage caps at 3% hp.
Can set Poisoned status effect.
Can be used with any weapon combo.

Onslaught: set value pen based on target, only if the target is hit.
Single target with a small aoe upfront, does one damage value and doesn't harm again.
Gives resistances which is more or less useless in pvp (depending on pen of your target and your resists, could be as little as 10k of that "26k" you hit that matters)
Gives you cc immunity instead of capping incoming damage. Great sometimes, useless if you're already on cooldown.
Must be used from a 2h bar.

Listing pros and cons out, I'd rather corrosive if I wanted just the pen. More reliable, and on and DK more ult = bigger heal and sustain boost.

why would i be getting 10k of the 26k? if a target has 26k, i'll have 26k penetration on that target (if it hits) for 16 seconds, on top of one big smack to start with.

yes, listing both i feel like Corrosive is a better skill for AoE, while Onslaught is better for single target.

Because on my experience, one big burst of damage is more effective to finish off somebody. If I pop Corrosive, spamming Nox breath or Reverse Strike just doesn't seem to cut it... and Dizzying is... well..... not reliable.

del9

Onslaught can be dodged and you need to find a target first. Corrosive will get you the pen 100% of the time.

It is also 12s not 10s.

Davadin

del9 wrote: »

Onslaught can be dodged and you need to find a target first. Corrosive will get you the pen 100% of the time.

It is also 12s not 10s.

yes i know. but I'm really liking the first big burst at the beginning of 16 sec.


and if i can regen 110 ulti within 16 sec, that'll be one painful DK Leap.....

DocFrost72

Davadin wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Corrosive: 100% pen on all targets for ten seconds.
Aoe poison dot damage.
Damage caps at 3% hp.
Can set Poisoned status effect.
Can be used with any weapon combo.

Onslaught: set value pen based on target, only if the target is hit.
Single target with a small aoe upfront, does one damage value and doesn't harm again.
Gives resistances which is more or less useless in pvp (depending on pen of your target and your resists, could be as little as 10k of that "26k" you hit that matters)
Gives you cc immunity instead of capping incoming damage. Great sometimes, useless if you're already on cooldown.
Must be used from a 2h bar.

Listing pros and cons out, I'd rather corrosive if I wanted just the pen. More reliable, and on and DK more ult = bigger heal and sustain boost.

why would i be getting 10k of the 26k? if a target has 26k, i'll have 26k penetration on that target (if it hits) for 16 seconds, on top of one big smack to start with.

To clarify something, that line is referring to resistances, not penetration. I don't know how you run and who you fight, and that's why I said "as little as". Most people I come across tend to have around 10k pen (no cp) magicka. It might fluctuate a bit if they're rolling Ele drain. Stam has less.

I personally (running stam) tend to have almost resist cap. Ergo, I really only get their pen value as "mitigation", since anything over the cap is irrelevant.

Davadin

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Corrosive: 100% pen on all targets for ten seconds.
Aoe poison dot damage.
Damage caps at 3% hp.
Can set Poisoned status effect.
Can be used with any weapon combo.

Onslaught: set value pen based on target, only if the target is hit.
Single target with a small aoe upfront, does one damage value and doesn't harm again.
Gives resistances which is more or less useless in pvp (depending on pen of your target and your resists, could be as little as 10k of that "26k" you hit that matters)
Gives you cc immunity instead of capping incoming damage. Great sometimes, useless if you're already on cooldown.
Must be used from a 2h bar.

Listing pros and cons out, I'd rather corrosive if I wanted just the pen. More reliable, and on and DK more ult = bigger heal and sustain boost.

why would i be getting 10k of the 26k? if a target has 26k, i'll have 26k penetration on that target (if it hits) for 16 seconds, on top of one big smack to start with.

To clarify something, that line is referring to resistances, not penetration. I don't know how you run and who you fight, and that's why I said "as little as". Most people I come across tend to have around 10k pen (no cp) magicka. It might fluctuate a bit if they're rolling Ele drain. Stam has less.

I personally (running stam) tend to have almost resist cap. Ergo, I really only get their pen value as "mitigation", since anything over the cap is irrelevant.

ah i see. gives resistance is a moot point for everyone.

we're just losing our minds on the 16 sec penetration part lol

ecru

with ww hide/blood spawn/nord i'll probably be slotting the 2h ult, building 150 ult in 16 seconds isn't that out of reach and the extra 4 seconds of ridiculous damage will just help me build more ult. corrosive is nice but doesn't mitigate nearly as much damage as you'd expect it does.

i think it's a dumb ult though and i hope it doesn't go live.

Davadin

ecru wrote: »

with ww hide/blood spawn/nord i'll probably be slotting the 2h ult, building 150 ult in 16 seconds isn't that out of reach and the extra 4 seconds of ridiculous damage will just help me build more ult. corrosive is nice but doesn't mitigate nearly as much damage as you'd expect it does.

i think it's a dumb ult though and i hope it doesn't go live.

truth. i think the 3% is funky. i think something to do with lag and somehow it's less than 12 sec and I'm dead under fire. and even the resistance bypass doesn't work fully with other player. npc though I'd hit as much as the tooltip with corrosive in effect.

I'm going for Onslaught plus leap.

16 sec is a lot to build 110 ulti which will hit like Optimus Prime truck.

my tooltip on leap in cyro is 24k-ish i believe.


honest question: other than resistances which will get bypassed by either Onslaught or CA, what else can reduce the damage done against other player; other than blocking of course.

Skullstachio

Corrosive armor is better than Onslaught in the current state.

Sure onslaught may give you some measure of penetration based on the targets resistances for 16 seconds for just a measly 150 ultimate, but corrosive armor, while 4 seconds shorter in duration(counting eternal mountain here), bypasses 100% of an enemies physical resistances, has Poison AoE Potential and a 3% damage cap, even though the ultimate cost is like a 50 point difference.

Onslaught Pros and Cons:

• Pro: Hits Hard with a 5m AoE on a successful hit.
• Pro: Costs 150 ultimate.
• Pro: gain physical penetration based on the hit targets armor.
• Pro: lasts a maximum of 16 seconds.
• Con: Can be Dodged.
• Con: AoE does not hit targets if the initial hit is dodged.
• Con: no longer grants Physical/Spell resistance based on the hit targets resistances in comparison to other morphs.
• Con: Oblivion damage bypasses resistances due to its health based mechanics.

Corrosive Armor Pros and Cons:

• Pro: Completely makes all matter of Physical, Poison, Disease and Bleed attacks ignore 100% of armor.
• Pro: Reduces all Incoming Damage to 3% of your maximum health.
• Pro: Damaging Poison Based AoE that deals it’s full damage(explained in first pro.) to targets in range.
• Pro: Lasts 10 seconds which can be buffed to 12 seconds with Eternal Mountain while also triggering passives such as Battle Roar, Helping hands and Mountains Blessing.
• Pro: Costs 200 ultimate, while granting resources for each point of ultimate via battle roar.
• Con: Damage cap can be bypassed with oblivion damage.
• Con: Poison AoE is proximity based, may not be as effective against ranged targets.

Let me know If I miss anything.

NuarBlack

Not sure if anyone noticed but onslaught could see the return of mag 2h builds as it does give spell pen. Especially in no cp. Throw in major evasion and snare immunity 2h starts to look attractive.

Davadin

Skullstachio wrote: »

Corrosive armor is better than Onslaught in the current state.

Sure onslaught may give you some measure of penetration based on the targets resistances for 16 seconds for just a measly 150 ultimate, but corrosive armor, while 4 seconds shorter in duration(counting eternal mountain here), bypasses 100% of an enemies physical resistances, has Poison AoE Potential and a 3% damage cap, even though the ultimate cost is like a 50 point difference.

Onslaught Pros and Cons:

• Pro: Hits Hard with a 5m AoE on a successful hit.
• Pro: Costs 150 ultimate.
• Pro: gain physical penetration based on the hit targets armor.
• Pro: lasts a maximum of 16 seconds.
• Con: Can be Dodged.
• Con: AoE does not hit targets if the initial hit is dodged.
• Con: no longer grants Physical/Spell resistance based on the hit targets resistances in comparison to other morphs.
• Con: Oblivion damage bypasses resistances due to its health based mechanics.

Corrosive Armor Pros and Cons:

• Pro: Completely makes all matter of Physical, Poison, Disease and Bleed attacks ignore 100% of armor.
• Pro: Reduces all Incoming Damage to 3% of your maximum health.
• Pro: Damaging Poison Based AoE that deals it’s full damage(explained in first pro.) to targets in range.
• Pro: Lasts 10 seconds which can be buffed to 12 seconds with Eternal Mountain while also triggering passives such as Battle Roar, Helping hands and Mountains Blessing.
• Pro: Costs 200 ultimate, while granting resources for each point of ultimate via battle roar.
• Con: Damage cap can be bypassed with oblivion damage.
• Con: Poison AoE is proximity based, may not be as effective against ranged targets.

Let me know If I miss anything.

from tooltip alone, i think the type of resistance between the 2 are the same. but needs further testing for sure. and yes, you are right, for 50 ulti more, the DoT and tankyness is fair game.

personally, however,
1. my attacks are mostly physical anyway, although some DoT may not be?
2. i honestly think something wrong with the 3% all incoming damage. maybe it's lag, maybe it's DoT that starts before CA kicks in, maybe it's oblivion, but whatever it is, I'm receiving way more than 3%.

I'll test this in a dummy tonight.

Skullstachio

@Davadin wrote: »

Skullstachio wrote: »

Corrosive armor is better than Onslaught in the current state.

Sure onslaught may give you some measure of penetration based on the targets resistances for 16 seconds for just a measly 150 ultimate, but corrosive armor, while 4 seconds shorter in duration(counting eternal mountain here), bypasses 100% of an enemies physical resistances, has Poison AoE Potential and a 3% damage cap, even though the ultimate cost is like a 50 point difference.

Onslaught Pros and Cons:

• Pro: Hits Hard with a 5m AoE on a successful hit.
• Pro: Costs 150 ultimate.
• Pro: gain physical penetration based on the hit targets armor.
• Pro: lasts a maximum of 16 seconds.
• Con: Can be Dodged.
• Con: AoE does not hit targets if the initial hit is dodged.
• Con: no longer grants Physical/Spell resistance based on the hit targets resistances in comparison to other morphs.
• Con: Oblivion damage bypasses resistances due to its health based mechanics.

Corrosive Armor Pros and Cons:

• Pro: Completely makes all matter of Physical, Poison, Disease and Bleed attacks ignore 100% of armor.
• Pro: Reduces all Incoming Damage to 3% of your maximum health.
• Pro: Damaging Poison Based AoE that deals it’s full damage(explained in first pro.) to targets in range.
• Pro: Lasts 10 seconds which can be buffed to 12 seconds with Eternal Mountain while also triggering passives such as Battle Roar, Helping hands and Mountains Blessing.
• Pro: Costs 200 ultimate, while granting resources for each point of ultimate via battle roar.
• Con: Damage cap can be bypassed with oblivion damage.
• Con: Poison AoE is proximity based, may not be as effective against ranged targets.

Let me know If I miss anything.

from tooltip alone, i think the type of resistance between the 2 are the same. but needs further testing for sure. and yes, you are right, for 50 ulti more, the DoT and tankyness is fair game.

personally, however,
1. my attacks are mostly physical anyway, although some DoT may not be?
2. i honestly think something wrong with the 3% all incoming damage. maybe it's lag, maybe it's DoT that starts before CA kicks in, maybe it's oblivion, but whatever it is, I'm receiving way more than 3%.

I'll test this in a dummy tonight.

In a PvP scenario, it is not just damage from DoT’s and single target abilities and the like, but some weapon enchantments and poisons do count as a separate instance of damage which results in a minor form of double dipping and likewise, being affected by multiple DoT’s can result in ones health being burned down from multiple sources of damage rather than just a singular hard hitting ability, creating the impression that the damage reduction may not work even though it is.

Without any form of health restoration by mathematical speculation (and without oblivion damage) players affected by corrosive armors 3% damage cap can effectively weather out up to 33 1/3 hits before going down, if you suffer damage from multiple instances of damage, say about multiple bleeds, AoE’s, etc. there you go, quick and easy health burns.

GeorgeBlack

Nerf both I say

Davadin

Skullstachio wrote: »

@Davadin wrote: »

Skullstachio wrote: »

Corrosive armor is better than Onslaught in the current state.

Sure onslaught may give you some measure of penetration based on the targets resistances for 16 seconds for just a measly 150 ultimate, but corrosive armor, while 4 seconds shorter in duration(counting eternal mountain here), bypasses 100% of an enemies physical resistances, has Poison AoE Potential and a 3% damage cap, even though the ultimate cost is like a 50 point difference.

Onslaught Pros and Cons:

• Pro: Hits Hard with a 5m AoE on a successful hit.
• Pro: Costs 150 ultimate.
• Pro: gain physical penetration based on the hit targets armor.
• Pro: lasts a maximum of 16 seconds.
• Con: Can be Dodged.
• Con: AoE does not hit targets if the initial hit is dodged.
• Con: no longer grants Physical/Spell resistance based on the hit targets resistances in comparison to other morphs.
• Con: Oblivion damage bypasses resistances due to its health based mechanics.

Corrosive Armor Pros and Cons:

• Pro: Completely makes all matter of Physical, Poison, Disease and Bleed attacks ignore 100% of armor.
• Pro: Reduces all Incoming Damage to 3% of your maximum health.
• Pro: Damaging Poison Based AoE that deals it’s full damage(explained in first pro.) to targets in range.
• Pro: Lasts 10 seconds which can be buffed to 12 seconds with Eternal Mountain while also triggering passives such as Battle Roar, Helping hands and Mountains Blessing.
• Pro: Costs 200 ultimate, while granting resources for each point of ultimate via battle roar.
• Con: Damage cap can be bypassed with oblivion damage.
• Con: Poison AoE is proximity based, may not be as effective against ranged targets.

Let me know If I miss anything.

from tooltip alone, i think the type of resistance between the 2 are the same. but needs further testing for sure. and yes, you are right, for 50 ulti more, the DoT and tankyness is fair game.

personally, however,
1. my attacks are mostly physical anyway, although some DoT may not be?
2. i honestly think something wrong with the 3% all incoming damage. maybe it's lag, maybe it's DoT that starts before CA kicks in, maybe it's oblivion, but whatever it is, I'm receiving way more than 3%.

I'll test this in a dummy tonight.

In a PvP scenario, it is not just damage from DoT’s and single target abilities and the like, but some weapon enchantments and poisons do count as a separate instance of damage which results in a minor form of double dipping and likewise, being affected by multiple DoT’s can result in ones health being burned down from multiple sources of damage rather than just a singular hard hitting ability, creating the impression that the damage reduction may not work even though it is.

Without any form of health restoration by mathematical speculation (and without oblivion damage) players affected by corrosive armors 3% damage cap can effectively weather out up to 33 1/3 hits before going down, if you suffer damage from multiple instances of damage, say about multiple bleeds, AoE’s, etc. there you go, quick and easy health burns.

aye. tested last night with Combat Log, checked to make sure i'm looking at instances with 100% (or close to) CA is up.

i'm getting 783 damage (which is correctly 3% of my health buffed in Cyro) from ALL attacks, which, if you counted 6-7 people hitting me, each would accumulate 3~4k under the ~12 seconds period. The non-783 is done outside of CA, and i'm getting 4-6k damage as expected.

but 6 people dealing DoT and direct attack is about 3-4k, so i'm receiving upwards to 25k damage, and that fully explains 3% damage does not make u immortal and u still need to heal yourself and be smart.


also explains if u go Leeroy Jenkins into a middle of a zerg with CA active, you will still die very fast.


In summary, I'm going to stick with Onslaught, NOT because it's more effective, but without the inc-damage buff, i won't have the mindset of "I don't need to worry about my well-being for 12sec!".

Leap and Onslaught for me.

PS: also tested in PTS that both CA and Onslaught bypassed all resistance, both physical and poison/fire/whatever. I did not, however, able to test if my Onslaught buff would get applied to my target that i whack first, or anybody for 16 sec...