Spell dmg vs crit dmg...

Hauztein

A quick noob question...
Lets assume the same character with same same stats, using the same skill in the same mob.

A mag Necro using blastbones, or graveyard, whatever...
average 160lvl spell dmg, and average 160lvl crit chance

What adds more sheet damage to the skills? (combat numbers in the screen)

1. +400 spell dmg
2. +20% spell dmg
3. +10% crit dmg

I know it depends on a lot of things... but i am trying to understand which is usually stronger, and which is usually weaker.
(its all bonus from sets)

LeHarrt91

I dont know numbers but i think depends if your Crit Chance is below 50%, if it it you would want more crit chance due to the passives in Grave Lord that a Necro has. The higher the chance you crit the higher the damage numbers will be.

and the 20% spell damage will be less if you have low Spell Damage to begin with. the higher your spell damage the more you will get out of 20% more.

idk if this helped or if it confused you more, sorry

ryzen_gamer_gal

I have yet to find an answer to this question that satisfies me. ZOS actually hides the numbers from your character sheet as far as i can tell so unless you know the math, there's no way to know. Some peopledo but i am not one. Honestly i wish they would list you crit damage on the character sheet. But understand, even if they did it would still change based on buffs in combat, not just yours but one others cast too. So it could potentially change in every dungeon or trial.

zaria

The two fists is simple, you want +400 if you have less than 2000 spell power if you have more you want +20%

Beardimus

Hauztein wrote: »

A quick noob question...
Lets assume the same character with same same stats, using the same skill in the same mob.

A mag Necro using blastbones, or graveyard, whatever...
average 160lvl spell dmg, and average 160lvl crit chance

What adds more sheet damage to the skills? (combat numbers in the screen)

1. +400 spell dmg
2. +20% spell dmg
3. +10% crit dmg

I know it depends on a lot of things... but i am trying to understand which is usually stronger, and which is usually weaker.
(its all bonus from sets)

There are too many variables to give a clear answer. Easiest way for you to test, try the sets on a test dummy and see your damage over the same rotation. Done.

Otherwise, approx answers - 1&2 look obvious, 400 is 20% of 2k, Thus under 2k 1 would be better, however if you reference 20% its probably a set giving you major sorcery (rattlecage) which is a set buff you can get elsewhere (Power Surge/Entropy/Potions etc) if so you would be better to get that there and grab the 400 (Julianos?) as for Crit what's your current Crit %? And any other Crit damage modifiers (shadow/elfborn CP/nightblade/etc

MartiniDaniels

Simplified effective spell power is like: (spell damage*1.05 + 0.1*maxmagicka)*(1+critchance*critdamage)

Obviously dependency on your spell crit and crit damage is huge, so only you can say what is better for you by making this simple calculation.

Example: 3k spelldamage, 40k magicka, 50% crit chance, crit damage x2 (+100%).
Your baseline effective spell power will be (3000*1.05+0.1*40000)*(1+0.5*1)=10725
If you add +20% spell damage, it will be +600 to SD, which is higher then 400*1.3 (major+minor sorcery).
So in case of extra+20% damage=(3600*1.05+0.1*40000)*(1+0.5*1)=11670
And if you add +10% to crit damage, it will be (3000*1.05+0.1*40000)*(1+0.5*1.1)=11082.

But problem is that if you are speaking about sets, generally there are better ways to get +20% to spell damage (major sorcery, rattlecage?) and +10% to crit (minor force, medusa?). AFAIK first set is somewhat usable in PVP and second set is trash, and in PVE both of them are trash...

JumpmanLane

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Simplified effective spell power is like: (spell damage*1.05 + 0.1*maxmagicka)*(1+critchance*critdamage)

Obviously dependency on your spell crit and crit damage is huge, so only you can say what is better for you by making this simple calculation.

Example: 3k spelldamage, 40k magicka, 50% crit chance, crit damage x2 (+100%).
Your baseline effective spell power will be (3000*1.05+0.1*40000)*(1+0.5*1)=10725
If you add +20% spell damage, it will be +600 to SD, which is higher then 400*1.3 (major+minor sorcery).
So in case of extra+20% damage=(3600*1.05+0.1*40000)*(1+0.5*1)=11670
And if you add +10% to crit damage, it will be (3000*1.05+0.1*40000)*(1+0.5*1.1)=11082.

But problem is that if you are speaking about sets, generally there are better ways to get +20% to spell damage (major sorcery, rattlecage?) and +10% to crit (minor force, medusa?). AFAIK first set is somewhat usable in PVP and second set is trash, and in PVE both of them are trash...

Yup that’s the answer all right. Gospel there.

Drdeath20

I swapped from a pure spell damage build to a pure crit build and my parses went up by ~10k near instantly. You have soo much more potential damage in crit. 1 set piece bonus is 833 for crit. Some of the stronger damage dealing sets dont even get to that number in spell damage when you add up all the bonuses.

Vildebill

Drdeath20 wrote: »

I swapped from a pure spell damage build to a pure crit build and my parses went up by ~10k near instantly. You have soo much more potential damage in crit. 1 set piece bonus is 833 for crit. Some of the stronger damage dealing sets dont even get to that number in spell damage when you add up all the bonuses.

You're comparing apples and oranges, 100 spell damage does not equals 100 crit in performance.

Hauztein

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Simplified effective spell power is like: (spell damage*1.05 + 0.1*maxmagicka)*(1+critchance*critdamage)

Obviously dependency on your spell crit and crit damage is huge, so only you can say what is better for you by making this simple calculation.

Example: 3k spelldamage, 40k magicka, 50% crit chance, crit damage x2 (+100%).
Your baseline effective spell power will be (3000*1.05+0.1*40000)*(1+0.5*1)=10725
If you add +20% spell damage, it will be +600 to SD, which is higher then 400*1.3 (major+minor sorcery).
So in case of extra+20% damage=(3600*1.05+0.1*40000)*(1+0.5*1)=11670
And if you add +10% to crit damage, it will be (3000*1.05+0.1*40000)*(1+0.5*1.1)=11082.

But problem is that if you are speaking about sets, generally there are better ways to get +20% to spell damage (major sorcery, rattlecage?) and +10% to crit (minor force, medusa?). AFAIK first set is somewhat usable in PVP and second set is trash, and in PVE both of them are trash...

From a noob perspective, rattlecage and medusa seems one of the best for dmg... what do you suggest instead?
(Could be light, heavy, anything...)
Assuming regen is all right.

markulrich1966

you usually don't get percent, but absolute numbers for some stats.

Like using the apprentice mundus, not x% more spell damage, but like 300 more.

So the mundus is fine for low level players. They have for example 1000 spell damage, so 300 more adds 1/3 of damage.

Different for an advanced player, who has 2000 spell damage (better gear, skill + cp points).
For him the 300 damage from the mundus mean just 1/6 of increase.

Now spell crit chance. I found that below 50% it is so rare, so that a few more % did not really have a strong effect, so I had better results in increasing damage instead.

Just later when I reached around 60% using different methods combined (Mothers sorrow gear, the thief mundus, skills), I felt a real increase in damage. There are more factors, I have a high elf sorc and a dark elf warden, both with same gear (Iceheart & mothers sorrow, both crit related). The sorc works best with the thief mundus (crit chance), while the dark elf does more damage using the shadow (spell penetration).

Summary:
simplified: low level: invest in spell damage, higher level, invest in crit chance. Try other options too, as crit is not always "the best".

Sidenote: when I say say something is "better" for me, this is not based on DPS tests on a dummy, but ingame PVE practice, like how much damage is done to enemy health with one heavy attack, how quickly mobs are cleared with mixed attacks in dungeons, how long it takes to take down worldbosses.

WrathOfInnos

Without having all the numbers required to check this on your build, I can tell you that for mine:

129 Spell Damage = 2.1% Damage
833 Spell Crit = 2.3% Damage
10% Crit Damage = 4% Damage
1096 Max Magicka = 1.8% Damage

Shouldn’t be too far off for what you’re doing.

MartiniDaniels

Hauztein wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Simplified effective spell power is like: (spell damage*1.05 + 0.1*maxmagicka)*(1+critchance*critdamage)

Obviously dependency on your spell crit and crit damage is huge, so only you can say what is better for you by making this simple calculation.

Example: 3k spelldamage, 40k magicka, 50% crit chance, crit damage x2 (+100%).
Your baseline effective spell power will be (3000*1.05+0.1*40000)*(1+0.5*1)=10725
If you add +20% spell damage, it will be +600 to SD, which is higher then 400*1.3 (major+minor sorcery).
So in case of extra+20% damage=(3600*1.05+0.1*40000)*(1+0.5*1)=11670
And if you add +10% to crit damage, it will be (3000*1.05+0.1*40000)*(1+0.5*1.1)=11082.

But problem is that if you are speaking about sets, generally there are better ways to get +20% to spell damage (major sorcery, rattlecage?) and +10% to crit (minor force, medusa?). AFAIK first set is somewhat usable in PVP and second set is trash, and in PVE both of them are trash...

From a noob perspective, rattlecage and medusa seems one of the best for dmg... what do you suggest instead?
(Could be light, heavy, anything...)
Assuming regen is all right.

Try this article and site, with information from there I approximately tripled my dps (though info is mostly obvious meta one, it is presented in very good structured form):
https://alcasthq.com/eso-magicka-dps-sets/

ryzen_gamer_gal

rattlecage is for magicka tanking as far as i can tell

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Without having all the numbers required to check this on your build, I can tell you that for mine:

129 Spell Damage = 2.1% Damage
833 Spell Crit = 2.3% Damage
10% Crit Damage = 4% Damage
1096 Max Magicka = 1.8% Damage

Shouldn’t be too far off for what you’re doing.

what are the rest of your stats of your build?

WrathOfInnos

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Without having all the numbers required to check this on your build, I can tell you that for mine:

129 Spell Damage = 2.1% Damage
833 Spell Crit = 2.3% Damage
10% Crit Damage = 4% Damage
1096 Max Magicka = 1.8% Damage

Shouldn’t be too far off for what you’re doing.

what are the rest of your stats of your build?

Varies slightly depending on which fight and buffs, but usually around 65% Spell Crit, 8k effective spell Damage (SD + MM/10.5), and just over 100% Crit Damage.

Chelo

ryzen_gamer_gal wrote: »

I have yet to find an answer to this question that satisfies me. ZOS actually hides the numbers from your character sheet as far as i can tell so unless you know the math, there's no way to know. Some peopledo but i am not one. Honestly i wish they would list you crit damage on the character sheet. But understand, even if they did it would still change based on buffs in combat, not just yours but one others cast too. So it could potentially change in every dungeon or trial.

There's add-ons for that...

Drdeath20

Crit damage is the highest possible damage you can do in this game.

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO

I play only mag characters in PvE and spell crit damage bonuses are worthless, because when you get a bit more CP and good good debufs you will already have +70-100% crit damage. So adding another +10% crit damage will add it up to +8--110% so the damage gain will not be that much.

Since you are a necro you should be looking for the crit change that you will run solo or in group to be somewhere around 60% as you most likely run 4 necro abilities on front bar which will give in execute another 40% crit chance and you dont want to have more than 100% crit change.

Another thing is that if you plan on getting the spell stragetist set you must know that the 400 spell damage that you gain is a debuf on the enemy so it wont get buffed by 20% by your CP or other damage modifiers. Meaning that you will most likely gain more damage with burning spelweave or better yet julianos as BSW is a bit tricky to maximize its uptime and not that noob friendly.

And most importantly don't ever forget to weave light attacks between abilities as that is another ~20% damage increase.

and if you can get in group the new trial sets are awesome.

WrathOfInnos

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO wrote: »

I play only mag characters in PvE and spell crit damage bonuses are worthless, because when you get a bit more CP and good good debufs you will already have +70-100% crit damage. So adding another +10% crit damage will add it up to +8--110% so the damage gain will not be that much.

I disagree with this. Necro has the highest effective crit chance of any class due to their passive execute. You should take advantage of this by investing a decent amount into Crit Damage. Shadow Stone w 7 divines (19%), 56-66 points in Elfborn CP (20%-22%), and Channeled Acceleration (10%) are all important to Necro DPS. You’ll also benefit from Aggressive Warhorns (15%) more than other classes.

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO wrote: »

Since you are a necro you should be looking for the crit change that you will run solo or in group to be somewhere around 60% as you most likely run 4 necro abilities on front bar which will give in execute another 40% crit chance and you dont want to have more than 100% crit change.

That is true, you should keep an eye on how much crit chance you’ll gain in execute, and make sure that doesn’t put you over 100%. Any crit you’re adding beyond this has highly diminishing returns. Easy to adjust this by choosing your sets, and whether or not to use Precise trait on your front bar weapon.

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO wrote: »

Another thing is that if you plan on getting the spell stragetist set you must know that the 400 spell damage that you gain is a debuf on the enemy so it wont get buffed by 20% by your CP or other damage modifiers. Meaning that you will most likely gain more damage with burning spelweave or better yet julianos as BSW is a bit tricky to maximize its uptime and not that noob friendly.

This isn’t true. The 500 spell damage from the 5pc bonus of Spell Strategist is affected by multipliers. It typically becomes 600 if you have Major Sorcery active, but can reach 700 on some builds. It won’t be listed on your character sheet, but it does scale up.

I do agree that SS is more for players that have mastered their light attack weaving and rotation, and that Julianos is a more effective beginner set.

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO wrote: »

And most importantly don't ever forget to weave light attacks between abilities as that is another ~20% damage increase.

and if you can get in group the new trial sets are awesome.

Yes and yes.

D0PAMINE

Also don't forget to have decent wep/spell pen. You need a balance of crit, damage, pen and max resource stat. Don't just stack in one modifier. If you're on PC, Harvens Extended Stats add on is great to show baseline and buffed stats.

ryzen_gamer_gal

As i have just discovered, Harven's doesnt work. I use gamepad mode and there are no new stats on my character sheet

worrallj

In general pvp builds will try to stack regular damage and pve builds stack crit chance/dmg (because players in pvp have impen but monsters don't)

Savos_Saren

It appears that you're interested in Rattlecage (20% spell damage) and Innate Axiom (400 spell damage to class abilities).

I actually run both on my MagCro. With Mighty Chudan as my helm/shoulder (but you could run Slimecraw {8% damage increase} if you use the armor buff).

You can min/max by using a 5l/1m/1h setup to give you more crit/penetration. If you're trying to be a little more tanky- I'd suggest 2 protective trait rings and maybe SnB on your Scythe/Goliath bar. Flame or Lightning Staff on your ranged bar- depending on if you use more Flame Skull/Blast Bones attacks or Unnerving Graveyard for your main DPS.

If you want Major Sorcery AND Major Prophecy- you'd look into Rattlecage and Treasure Hunter. You'd have to tailor your regen and spell damage around those two.

ZonasArch

And people say there's no variety in the game...

Only true for the highest of endgames.


My general idea after 3 thousand hours of game play is that aside from very specific clearly trash sets, even the ones people call trash can be acceptable if you build around its weaknesses. This is a balancing game, everything is a trade-off.

Bringing this to your question, and assuming you're somewhat new to the game, this all means it doesn't matter of you go for damage, crit chance, or crit damage... They'll all be somewhat close to each other on overall performance. It only matters after you've refined rotation, because this is where the real damage is, not on min maxed bonuses. Just make sure whatever you choose fits your play style.

As two examples, I have a farming character running coward and fiord, and the sustain is so good that even with bells average damage, I can solo stuff because resources are always readily available. Efficient? No. Effective? I'd say so.

The other one is a build I'm having way too much fun playing, a magblade vamp healer, Magicka Regen based. No compromises on Regen, got it up to 4.1k, with 35k Magicka, 17k health, 12k Stam, 43% crit chance... And 1335 spell damage (haha!) As you can see, I've sacrificed everything else for it mostly, but in the end I can sit and face tank anything that doesn't one hit kill because my Magicka never goes below 70% so I can heal and shield forever. And I can pop damaging NB healing skill forever too. Again... Effective? Very much so. Efficient? Absolutely not. And I'm loving it so much. So are my friends.

So again... Worry less, be creative if you want, think outside the box, see what suits you. Only then you worry about min max.

ryzen_gamer_gal

ZonasArch wrote: »

And people say there's no variety in the game...

Only true for the highest of endgames.


My general idea after 3 thousand hours of game play is that aside from very specific clearly trash sets, even the ones people call trash can be acceptable if you build around its weaknesses. This is a balancing game, everything is a trade-off.

Bringing this to your question, and assuming you're somewhat new to the game, this all means it doesn't matter of you go for damage, crit chance, or crit damage... They'll all be somewhat close to each other on overall performance. It only matters after you've refined rotation, because this is where the real damage is, not on min maxed bonuses. Just make sure whatever you choose fits your play style.

As two examples, I have a farming character running coward and fiord, and the sustain is so good that even with bells average damage, I can solo stuff because resources are always readily available. Efficient? No. Effective? I'd say so.

The other one is a build I'm having way too much fun playing, a magblade vamp healer, Magicka Regen based. No compromises on Regen, got it up to 4.1k, with 35k Magicka, 17k health, 12k Stam, 43% crit chance... And 1335 spell damage (haha!) As you can see, I've sacrificed everything else for it mostly, but in the end I can sit and face tank anything that doesn't one hit kill because my Magicka never goes below 70% so I can heal and shield forever. And I can pop damaging NB healing skill forever too. Again... Effective? Very much so. Efficient? Absolutely not. And I'm loving it so much. So are my friends.

So again... Worry less, be creative if you want, think outside the box, see what suits you. Only then you worry about min max.

Yes this above. Just be thoughtful about what you are doing and why you are doing it

ryzen_gamer_gal

Chelo wrote: »

ryzen_gamer_gal wrote: »

I have yet to find an answer to this question that satisfies me. ZOS actually hides the numbers from your character sheet as far as i can tell so unless you know the math, there's no way to know. Some peopledo but i am not one. Honestly i wish they would list you crit damage on the character sheet. But understand, even if they did it would still change based on buffs in combat, not just yours but one others cast too. So it could potentially change in every dungeon or trial.

There's add-ons for that...

If you mean harven's it doent work in gamepad mode from what i can tell. Perhaps you have another in mind?

jbjondeaueb17_ESO

Also, fyi, one more precision, most of crit damage bonuses don't affect healing power, unlike spell damage.

ryzen_gamer_gal

so if i want a good hybrid dps/healer, go for spell damage.... good to know

ZonasArch

ryzen_gamer_gal wrote: »

so if i want a good hybrid dps/healer, go for spell damage.... good to know

Crit chance is good too, just not crit damage.

reprosal

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Without having all the numbers required to check this on your build, I can tell you that for mine:

129 Spell Damage = 2.1% Damage
833 Spell Crit = 2.3% Damage
10% Crit Damage = 4% Damage
1096 Max Magicka = 1.8% Damage

Shouldn’t be too far off for what you’re doing.

If this is the theory then why is Khajiit not considered top for mag classes? @WrathOfInnos