Why am I forced to use bow/Caltrops as they're the only way for persistent stamina damage?

daedalusAI

I'm rather annoyed that bow/caltrops are the only way to get persistent stamina damage on any stamina build, as the other weapon lines in DW and 2H just offer nothing of that kind.

I could name Blade Cloak as something similar, but it only ticks every 3 seconds and doesn't even come close to Volley/Caltrops in terms of damage.

Seraphayel

Because that’s how the game is build. It’s exactly the same for MagDPS except you don’t have any weapon choice and MUST use Destruction Staff.

ChunkyCat

Why can I only have 5 skills on my ability bar? Why can’t I have all of them up at once?!

Jhalin

“Why does magicka dps have to use Blockade and a class AoE for persistent magicka damage on any magicka build?”

You ain’t special

Robo_Hobo

It's the same for magicka, every dps rotation usually involves 2 Ground DoT abilities. There's nothing that can really replace them because they do so much damage, if there were an alternative ability that did the same thing it wouldn't replace it, but just be added on to the rotation on top of them.

Unless there was a weapon that had its own ground aoe dot ability that was close to what the bow's damage does (including the Maelstrom Bow buff), but then that would probably just end up replacing the front bar dual wield/2h weapon instead of the bow.

AcadianPaladin

All my stam chars are bow/bow so volley/caltrops is as natural as breathing, but for those who like melee, sorry you don't have more options. Of course, all my mag chars use a destro staff and blockade so not much difference there either I suppose except for their second AoE on the ground DoT where there are more class choices.

highkingnm

For the same reason you need in any bow rotation poison arrow and endless hail. There will always be top DPS skills for stam and others for mag. It is the way the game works and I have no problem with it. If not caltrops, it'd be another skill.

Itacira

Because "build diversity, what build diversity ?"

Seraphayel

Itacira wrote: »

Because "build diversity, what build diversity ?"

This game never had build diversity which is a shame due to the sheer amount of options it offers you. But then all of it gets hindered by the Stamina/Magicka morph and scaling issues, effectively killing hybrid or non-pure builds.

fgoron2000

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Why can I only have 5 skills on my ability bar? Why can’t I have all of them up at once?!

...i assume that they were looking to provide different challenges to the player than what's found in other games...bottom line is because that's the way zos chose to design it...

ryzen_gamer_gal

Seraphayel wrote: »

Because that’s how the game is build. It’s exactly the same for MagDPS except you don’t have any weapon choice and MUST use Destruction Staff.

But you have three destro staffs, well two functionally, but three are in the game.

Dusk_Coven

If they made every playstyle available to every class and every weapon... this thread would become "why is everything a boring clone".

As it is, people naturally gravitate toward what they think or are told is "the best" and are clones already. You don't see people complaining about class and build guides stamping out clones.

This is what your complaint really is: "I want to have the best skills on my favourite skill lines. Why can't I have that?"

ryzen_gamer_gal

daedalusAI wrote: »

I'm rather annoyed that bow/caltrops are the only way to get persistent stamina damage on any stamina build, as the other weapon lines in DW and 2H just offer nothing of that kind.

I could name Blade Cloak as something similar, but it only ticks every 3 seconds and doesn't even come close to Volley/Caltrops in terms of damage.

Well i don't know about it really but i like using dw with the jabby weapons (reminds me of templar jabby jabby) and the two times bouncy blade (it buffs your attacks) and the razor caltrops.

razor caltrops, bouncy blade one or two times, and then jabby jabby (eithe dual wield or templar jabby jabby will do but i kind prefer templar jabby over the dw one)

problem with that is you burn through stamina kind fast if you dont weave in a heavy strike .

Kel

I mean, you're not forced to do anything.
But if you're the type that wants to play as optimally as possible, what difference do your skills actually make? You'll do what is the best for your build, no matter what.

DocFrost72

Unless I'm reading your post wrong, rending slashes and carve are what you're looking for.

david_m_18b16_ESO

Bcuz the idea of giving everyones the sames choices promising infinite diversity is a fail due to its very nature. 1 skill will inevitable comes on top.

Rukia541

I do agree it's pretty dumb for a BOW required top dps. I wish I could have melee on both sets too.

That said, the game has tons of diversity but not when it comes to meta just like literally every MMO in history.

Maybe someday we can play a full melee character without gimping ourselves.

rustle911

Why isn’t this a VR game that doesn’t use buttons but actually makes me swing my own swords and roll dodge and cast spells and all that stuff? Why hasn’t ZoS invented a full dive system yet? What the hell are they doing with all that ESO+ money?

deepseamk20b14_ESO

I mean, it’s not really that different from any other MMO. You end up doing a rotation over and over.

But that’s the problem isn’t it? The game is only some what play as you want. I will say however, most content can be played as you like. People are just obsessed with BiS setups, not gonna lie, myself included. If they made a spell sword viable though that would be cool. It’ll never happen though.

Seraphayel

ryzen_gamer_gal wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Because that’s how the game is build. It’s exactly the same for MagDPS except you don’t have any weapon choice and MUST use Destruction Staff.

But you have three destro staffs, well two functionally, but three are in the game.

They share the exact same skills and function almost exactly the same. Please don’t try to sell the three types of Destruction Staves as options or diversity.

idk

OP is not required to use bow or caltrops. OP can play as they want.

But if OP wants to do solid sustained damage in PvP then they will use caltrops and the two DoTs from the bow.

I think people get confused with the whole play as you want and freedom of choice. That has never meant any build would do comparable damage to optimized builds.

Every MMORPG I have played has optimized builds for each class. Most of those games required a player to choose a specific build then use those skills in a specific manner to get the best DPS. If they chose to do otherwise they hit like a wet noodle.

There is no reason to think ESO would be all the different.

mague

daedalusAI wrote: »

I'm rather annoyed that bow/caltrops are the only way to get persistent stamina damage on any stamina build, as the other weapon lines in DW and 2H just offer nothing of that kind.

I could name Blade Cloak as something similar, but it only ticks every 3 seconds and doesn't even come close to Volley/Caltrops in terms of damage.

Only when the target offers the convenience to stand still. As in dummy There are many other skills that do good/excelent damage. Twin Slashes for example.

Ixilith

Same reasons every magicka builds forced to have blockade of elements on their backbar

It is as it always will be there, there will always be some skills too good to pass up on any class

SoLooney

Some combo is gonna be the best dps.

What I'm hearing is why is bow and caltrops meta for stam dps. Cause it is, I dont see why that is an issue

You're lucky bow bow and 2h bow are viable in terms of dps

Tigerseye

Seraphayel wrote: »

Because that’s how the game is build.

Not really a proper answer, is it?

"Because it is.". ><

mocap

endless - caltrops - poison - spam spam spam spam = welcome to stam dd (actually welcome to any dd)

daedalusAI

mague wrote: »

daedalusAI wrote: »

I'm rather annoyed that bow/caltrops are the only way to get persistent stamina damage on any stamina build, as the other weapon lines in DW and 2H just offer nothing of that kind.

I could name Blade Cloak as something similar, but it only ticks every 3 seconds and doesn't even come close to Volley/Caltrops in terms of damage.

Only when the target offers the convenience to stand still. As in dummy There are many other skills that do good/excelent damage. Twin Slashes for example.

Might be, but ESO is a game about DoTs, especially AoE DoTs.

2H and DW have AoE spells with DoT-components, but except DW with Blade Cloak they have no ability like Volley/Caltrops with

• A single cast
• Continuous AoE damage over a set period of time
• And if you use Volley + Caltrops you increase your overall AoE damage by a lot

It's not about wanting to run the latest meta build either, but if the combat expects you to have several DoTs/AoE DoTs up all the time to get a fast clear speed/good dps it's illogical and somewhat insulting to give those tools only to specific weapon lines.

This glaring limitation of especially 2H and DW doesn't help the already lacking build diversity one bit.

DocFrost72

daedalusAI wrote: »

mague wrote: »

daedalusAI wrote: »

I'm rather annoyed that bow/caltrops are the only way to get persistent stamina damage on any stamina build, as the other weapon lines in DW and 2H just offer nothing of that kind.

I could name Blade Cloak as something similar, but it only ticks every 3 seconds and doesn't even come close to Volley/Caltrops in terms of damage.

Only when the target offers the convenience to stand still. As in dummy There are many other skills that do good/excelent damage. Twin Slashes for example.

Might be, but ESO is a game about DoTs, especially AoE DoTs.

2H and DW have AoE spells with DoT-components, but except DW with Blade Cloak they have no ability like Volley/Caltrops with

• A single cast
• Continuous AoE damage over a set period of time
• And if you use Volley + Caltrops you increase your overall AoE damage by a lot

It's not about wanting to run the latest meta build either, but if the combat expects you to have several DoTs/AoE DoTs up all the time to get a fast clear speed/good dps it's illogical and somewhat insulting to give those tools only to specific weapon lines.

This glaring limitation of especially 2H and DW doesn't help the already lacking build diversity one bit.

Except unless you have a maelstrom bow carve and rending slashes do more damage. Adds die to whatever spammable aoe you use (jabs, power extract, noxious breath now- lol, sub assault, Ruinous scythe don't even need a weapon slotted to use). You want single target damage for bosses, if you're talking pve. The blender that is steel tornado/lightning heavy spam will blow up trash.

*Now*,

If you're dead set on having an aoe dot and don't want to use bow or pvp (the latter is kinda an assumption, lemme know if I'm wrong), play stam sorc to run hurricane, necro to run detonating siphon, or templar for retribution. Or, alternatively, use heavy attacks from 2H into carve to get the aoe dmg from the direct hit and the bleed during the downtime.

Did this help you any?

ryzen_gamer_gal

Seraphayel wrote: »

ryzen_gamer_gal wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Because that’s how the game is build. It’s exactly the same for MagDPS except you don’t have any weapon choice and MUST use Destruction Staff.

But you have three destro staffs, well two functionally, but three are in the game.

They share the exact same skills and function almost exactly the same. Please don’t try to sell the three types of Destruction Staves as options or diversity.

But they arent the same really. One buffs with fire damage and destro damage and attacks a single target, one biuffs with shock damage and destro damage and attacks multiple targets, the third i would assume buffs with ice damage and destro damage (but i dont know if there are any armor sets that buff ice damage) and it taunts the enemy... so yah that is diversity in my book.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

DocFrost72 wrote: »

daedalusAI wrote: »

mague wrote: »

daedalusAI wrote: »

I'm rather annoyed that bow/caltrops are the only way to get persistent stamina damage on any stamina build, as the other weapon lines in DW and 2H just offer nothing of that kind.

I could name Blade Cloak as something similar, but it only ticks every 3 seconds and doesn't even come close to Volley/Caltrops in terms of damage.

Only when the target offers the convenience to stand still. As in dummy There are many other skills that do good/excelent damage. Twin Slashes for example.

Might be, but ESO is a game about DoTs, especially AoE DoTs.

2H and DW have AoE spells with DoT-components, but except DW with Blade Cloak they have no ability like Volley/Caltrops with

• A single cast
• Continuous AoE damage over a set period of time
• And if you use Volley + Caltrops you increase your overall AoE damage by a lot

It's not about wanting to run the latest meta build either, but if the combat expects you to have several DoTs/AoE DoTs up all the time to get a fast clear speed/good dps it's illogical and somewhat insulting to give those tools only to specific weapon lines.

This glaring limitation of especially 2H and DW doesn't help the already lacking build diversity one bit.

Except unless you have a maelstrom bow carve and rending slashes do more damage. Adds die to whatever spammable aoe you use (jabs, power extract, noxious breath now- lol, sub assault, Ruinous scythe don't even need a weapon slotted to use). You want single target damage for bosses, if you're talking pve. The blender that is steel tornado/lightning heavy spam will blow up trash.

*Now*,

If you're dead set on having an aoe dot and don't want to use bow or pvp (the latter is kinda an assumption, lemme know if I'm wrong), play stam sorc to run hurricane, necro to run detonating siphon, or templar for retribution. Or, alternatively, use heavy attacks from 2H into carve to get the aoe dmg from the direct hit and the bleed during the downtime.

Did this help you any?

you are forgetting a very important thing, enchants. with endless hail on your back bar, you literally have 97%+ uptime on a weapon damage enchant, you get 750+ weapon damage (after percentamps) for doing nothing but run through your rotation, this will happen, for stamina weapons, no other skill will give you that, not carve, not rending slashes, not even deadly cloak.

and your comparisons between an aoe ground based dot and single target bleeds (yes i know you can apply carve in an aoe but the bleed is a single target, as it follows the target you hit with it) is hilarious. they function completely different.

as for aoe spammables, most build dont even slot one of them, as most of them are very expensive stam wise and trash dies so fast to caltrops+hail, that you dont normally see people slot them. most people just drop caltrops and hail then use their single target spammable. the exception to this are whirling blades and reverse slice, as they double as executes as well as aoe spammabes.


then you act like people don't already use their class aoe dot, like hurricane, necro to run detonating siphon, or templar for retribution, though i would say that instead of RoR, a stamplar would be better off running shards, since that skill is the only reliable way to proc burning light from distance. people do. of course they do, when have you not seen hurricane on a stam sorc? detonating siphon is always front bar on a stamcer, for the passive 3% damage boost and the extra 10% crit in execute.

man do you even play this game.


@daedalusAI what class are you? i could give you a build that would easily get more 30k dps on without a bow or caltrops, that is more then enough to get you through all content in the game, short of timed vet trials.

DocFrost72

.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

daedalusAI wrote: »

mague wrote: »

daedalusAI wrote: »

I'm rather annoyed that bow/caltrops are the only way to get persistent stamina damage on any stamina build, as the other weapon lines in DW and 2H just offer nothing of that kind.

I could name Blade Cloak as something similar, but it only ticks every 3 seconds and doesn't even come close to Volley/Caltrops in terms of damage.

Only when the target offers the convenience to stand still. As in dummy There are many other skills that do good/excelent damage. Twin Slashes for example.

Might be, but ESO is a game about DoTs, especially AoE DoTs.

2H and DW have AoE spells with DoT-components, but except DW with Blade Cloak they have no ability like Volley/Caltrops with

• A single cast
• Continuous AoE damage over a set period of time
• And if you use Volley + Caltrops you increase your overall AoE damage by a lot

It's not about wanting to run the latest meta build either, but if the combat expects you to have several DoTs/AoE DoTs up all the time to get a fast clear speed/good dps it's illogical and somewhat insulting to give those tools only to specific weapon lines.

This glaring limitation of especially 2H and DW doesn't help the already lacking build diversity one bit.

Except unless you have a maelstrom bow carve and rending slashes do more damage. Adds die to whatever spammable aoe you use (jabs, power extract, noxious breath now- lol, sub assault, Ruinous scythe don't even need a weapon slotted to use). You want single target damage for bosses, if you're talking pve. The blender that is steel tornado/lightning heavy spam will blow up trash.

*Now*,

If you're dead set on having an aoe dot and don't want to use bow or pvp (the latter is kinda an assumption, lemme know if I'm wrong), play stam sorc to run hurricane, necro to run detonating siphon, or templar for retribution. Or, alternatively, use heavy attacks from 2H into carve to get the aoe dmg from the direct hit and the bleed during the downtime.

Did this help you any?

you are forgetting a very important thing, enchants. with endless hail on your back bar, you literally have 97%+ uptime on a weapon damage enchant, you get 750+ weapon damage (after percentamps) for doing nothing but run through your rotation, this will happen, for stamina weapons, no other skill will give you that, not carve, not rending slashes, not even deadly cloak.

And you've tested this? Because I have :^)

and your comparisons between an aoe ground based dot and single target bleeds (yes i know you can apply carve in an aoe but the bleed is a single target, as it follows the target you hit with it) is hilarious. they function completely different.

Firstly, OP is concerned about pve dps. That translates to majority single target. Rending slashes and carve do more damage with their dot to any single target than caltrops and hail do (hail can compete towards the end of a maelstrom bow effect).

Second; If he's worried about aoe for trash, he can slot two hand for (as you mention later) reverse slice, or throw on steel tornado or whirling blades (I still prefer tornado, area is better). Once the boss fight starts, you'll want rending more than you'll want Caltrops. Both is obviously ideal.

as for aoe spammables, most build dont even slot one of them, as most of them are very expensive stam wise and trash dies so fast to caltrops+hail, that you dont normally see people slot them. most people just drop caltrops and hail then use their single target spammable. the exception to this are whirling blades and reverse slice, as they double as executes as well as aoe spammabes.

OP doesn't want to slot caltrops or hail, so aN aoe spammable will certainly fit on his bar and do much better than direct (edit: single target) damage for total dps during aoe fights :^)

then you act like people don't already use their class aoe dot, like hurricane, necro to run detonating siphon, or templar for retribution, though i would say that instead of RoR, a stamplar would be better off running shards, since that skill is the only reliable way to proc burning light from distance. people do. of course they do, when have you not seen hurricane on a stam sorc? detonating siphon is always front bar on a stamcer, for the passive 3% damage boost and the extra 10% crit in execute.

man do you even play this game.

Why the sudden hostility, friend? I never said the op wasn't using these abilities, I said he could pick those classes to get an aoe dot. Misrepresenting my argument isn't polite.

You also forget the context of this entire argument; OP doesn't want to use hail and caltrops for...a reason. Concerns of homogeneity maybe? That seemed to come up a few times. In this context, review what I wrote and see if I'm saying anything negative to him or just offering advice on how to get better with his preferred setup.

Genuinely curious, how would you fix the issue of everyone using hail and caltrops? Keep in mind that any abilities you add can just be thrown onto a bar alongside caltrops and hail.