c0da Referenced in ESO

Ajaxandriel

khajiitNPC wrote: »

Personally I think it cuts deeper than that. Combined with the message Schick left us it confirms the lore is in our marrow and solidified ‘open source mythology’. Which I know the lore purists cringe at it. But I guess the bigger question is do they even grasp what the 36 Sermons are about?

Do you want to grasp what the 36 Sermons are about? I'm not sure. As a believer of C0da, you may be disappointed.

Let me quote Plato (The Republic)
"Now let me ask you another question: Which is the art of painting designed to be _ an imitation of things as they are, or as they appear - of appearance or of reality?
- Of appearance.
- Then the imitator, I said, is a long way off the truth, and can do all things because he lightly touches on a small part of them, and that part an image. For example: A painter will paint a cobbler, carpenter, or any other artist, though
he knows nothing of their arts; and, if he is a good artist, he may deceive children or simple persons, when he shows them his picture of a carpenter from a distance, and they will fancy that they are looking at a real carpenter."

Like a painter painting a carpenter without being a carpenter, Kirkbride depicted the story of a god, but he was only a good artist, giving the illusion that his character Vivec is truly a god who has something to teach to you about his reality, and you, you were the children who believed him.
This is what the whole 36 (or 37) sermons are about. An illusion into the illusion, to tell an in-universe religious belief.
Yes also: a bunch of raw nonsense, vaguely threaded around a metaphoric autobiography of Vivec roleplayed by Kirkbride - with one exercice of thought: what would I write as my own legend if I'd got the status of a god?
I'm not saying it's bad, I'm not saying it's not interesting, I'm just saying it is a tiny small part into the universe and certainly not the key to understand its possible truth.

If you think otherwise, you're just trapped into the deceit, trapped into the illusion of Vivec (the Sermons) which is into the illusion of the universe itself (TES). Here, there's a difference between a conscious player who will pretend to roleplay a dunmeri believer of Vivec, as a character, and a real-life fanboy who will believe Vivec teachings in his own immersion of Elder Scrolls, and then probably follow and fall into c0da's universe.

Next, canon and lore are another matter. Headcanon and fanon concepts already existed for all popular fictions long before c0da or TES even existed.

But still.

I imagine c0da can exist - just like the Sermons do exist - into the Elder Scrolls universe, for example, as a series of "in-universe science-fiction writings". I have no problem with this, since it's a fiction into the fiction - two "narrative" levels, so the Fourth Wall is not in danger, the consistency of the fictional world still stands.

So ... references to such in-universe fictions, myths and beliefs? Sure it can happen.

I like how Schick winked at this by mocking the KINMUNE story as an in-universe conspiracy theory told by a redguard NPC.

About the URL adress coded into the 37th sermon? It's a wink - not even a nod.
Unless you consider the World Wide Web IRL and the fourth wall to be canon* in-universe, it make absolutely no sense to consider it as part of the canon.

((*) One can consider this seriously though, since for an in-universe character point of view, our player real life is metaphysics.)

Bruccius

Ajaxandriel wrote: »

khajiitNPC wrote: »

Personally I think it cuts deeper than that. Combined with the message Schick left us it confirms the lore is in our marrow and solidified ‘open source mythology’. Which I know the lore purists cringe at it. But I guess the bigger question is do they even grasp what the 36 Sermons are about?

Do you want to grasp what the 36 Sermons are about? I'm not sure. As a believer of C0da, you may be disappointed.

Let me quote Plato (The Republic)
"Now let me ask you another question: Which is the art of painting designed to be _ an imitation of things as they are, or as they appear - of appearance or of reality?
- Of appearance.
- Then the imitator, I said, is a long way off the truth, and can do all things because he lightly touches on a small part of them, and that part an image. For example: A painter will paint a cobbler, carpenter, or any other artist, though
he knows nothing of their arts; and, if he is a good artist, he may deceive children or simple persons, when he shows them his picture of a carpenter from a distance, and they will fancy that they are looking at a real carpenter."

Like a painter painting a carpenter without being a carpenter, Kirkbride depicted the story of a god, but he was only a good artist, giving the illusion that his character Vivec is truly a god who has something to teach to you about his reality, and you, you were the children who believed him.
This is what the whole 36 (or 37) sermons are about. An illusion into the illusion, to tell an in-universe religious belief.
Yes also: a bunch of raw nonsense, vaguely threaded around a metaphoric autobiography of Vivec roleplayed by Kirkbride - with one exercice of thought: what would I write as my own legend if I'd got the status of a god?
I'm not saying it's bad, I'm not saying it's not interesting, I'm just saying it is a tiny small part into the universe and certainly not the key to understand its possible truth.

If you think otherwise, you're just trapped into the deceit, trapped into the illusion of Vivec (the Sermons) which is into the illusion of the universe itself (TES). Here, there's a difference between a conscious player who will pretend to roleplay a dunmeri believer of Vivec, as a character, and a real-life fanboy who will believe Vivec teachings in his own immersion of Elder Scrolls, and then probably follow and fall into c0da's universe.

Next, canon and lore are another matter. Headcanon and fanon concepts already existed for all popular fictions long before c0da or TES even existed.

But still.

I imagine c0da can exist - just like the Sermons do exist - into the Elder Scrolls universe, for example, as a series of "in-universe science-fiction writings". I have no problem with this, since it's a fiction into the fiction - two "narrative" levels, so the Fourth Wall is not in danger, the consistency of the fictional world still stands.

So ... references to such in-universe fictions, myths and beliefs? Sure it can happen.

I like how Schick winked at this by mocking the KINMUNE story as an in-universe conspiracy theory told by a redguard NPC.

About the URL adress coded into the 37th sermon? It's a wink - not even a nod.
Unless you consider the World Wide Web IRL and the fourth wall to be canon* in-universe, it make absolutely no sense to consider it as part of the canon.

((*) One can consider this seriously though, since for an in-universe character point of view, our player real life is metaphysics.)

That was refreshing.

Amdar_Godkiller

The entire reason I've supported the Daggerfall Covenant is based on the fact that the thot box known as Queen Ayrenn is an AI impostor who must be destroyed at all costs, so naturally I love the fact that it's referenced and is acknowledged as canon.

VaranisArano

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

The entire reason I've supported the Daggerfall Covenant is based on the fact that the thot box known as Queen Ayrenn is an AI impostor who must be destroyed at all costs, so naturally I love the fact that it's referenced and is acknowledged as canon.

Well, the rumor that she's Kinmune is canon, because that's actually in the game, spouted by an enemy NPC who likes conspiracy theories.

The actual fact that she is...that's never confirmed in game, and so that's speculation. The in game source for the rumor is not exactly in a position to be well-informed, so its quite unlikely.

khajiitNPC

I always begin with Aurbis which in the old language means arena then go from there. The scrolls are constantly changing. We go blind trying to pin down the point from egg to chrysalis to moth.

The moth priests know it too. Moths leave a powdery scale on everything. The same with dragons. There is no time and all possibilities exist along side those that actually exist. Momentary solidification of time.

Waking up is so hard when the dancers are on the tower. The serpent is a circle. ESO’s insignia is an ouroboric depiction of each alliance devouring and regurgitating it’s self.

A ceaseless battle. Yeah fictional worlds, maybe, but c0da is endgame stuff. I’m fine with those who clutch their holy canon because they need a narrator to give them substance. My character is the only one that exists. Solipsistic meandering in the thread of a forum.

Wasn’t Plato warning about mimesis tho?

PrayingSeraph

khajiitNPC wrote: »

I always begin with Aurbis which in the old language means arena then go from there. The scrolls are constantly changing. We go blind trying to pin down the point from egg to chrysalis to moth.

The moth priests know it too. Moths leave a powdery scale on everything. The same with dragons. There is no time and all possibilities exist along side those that actually exist. Momentary solidification of time.

Waking up is so hard when the dancers are on the tower. The serpent is a circle. ESO’s insignia is an ouroboric depiction of each alliance devouring and regurgitating it’s self.

A ceaseless battle. Yeah fictional worlds, maybe, but c0da is endgame stuff. I’m fine with those who clutch their holy canon because they need a narrator to give them substance. My character is the only one that exists. Solipsistic meandering in the thread of a forum.

Wasn’t Plato warning about mimesis tho?

...what?

mague

Bruccius wrote: »

khajiitNPC wrote: »

Not bait. I think there is a very specific reason this appears in the lore.

I get people will say Easter egg or nod to Kirkbride because they believe Occam’s razor is the best scalpel.

Personally I think it cuts deeper than that. Combined with the message Schick left us it confirms the lore is in our marrow and solidified ‘open source mythology’. Which I know the lore purists cringe at it. But I guess the bigger question is do they even grasp what the 36 Sermons are about?

I have a friend who has a waifu in his head canon. I accepted it. I didn’t like it because her name was waifu. But I knew, c0da makes it canon.

I wonder why it’s so hard to accept. Especially in ESO where we have multiple Vestiges, the last quest of the psijic skill line, different instances, choices for our “character”. So many of the lore purists try so hard to work contrary to what’s going on. Dragonbreaks aren’t just convenient ways to retcon. CHIM is real!

But even the simplest thing as a different instant will be glossed over as game mechanic. It’s like...the truth is just beating them over the head with it, and they are like but...but...the franchise.

C0da doesn't make anything canon though. It goes against the very purpose of the word ''canon''.

Your argument that ''everyone plays differently, thus everyone's playstyle is canon'' is nice, but not how it works. How your character plays is your choice, your ''story'' is fanon, just as the story of my Vestige, or that of any other player in the game.

It does not, but it tries.

The story is, if a whole server population is standing at a certain campfire somewhere on Nirn, then this is going to turn into canon. The devs dont want and cant ignore certain player generated "bright" spots in the ES universe.

And, as in PvP or economy or leaderboard raiding, there are people who want to leave a fingerprint on Nirn. Just as Mannimarco did :P Good or bad, it might happen that player actions create canon.

And, the attempt to influence canon is almost canon itself.

VaranisArano

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

khajiitNPC wrote: »

I always begin with Aurbis which in the old language means arena then go from there. The scrolls are constantly changing. We go blind trying to pin down the point from egg to chrysalis to moth.

The moth priests know it too. Moths leave a powdery scale on everything. The same with dragons. There is no time and all possibilities exist along side those that actually exist. Momentary solidification of time.

Waking up is so hard when the dancers are on the tower. The serpent is a circle. ESO’s insignia is an ouroboric depiction of each alliance devouring and regurgitating it’s self.

A ceaseless battle. Yeah fictional worlds, maybe, but c0da is endgame stuff. I’m fine with those who clutch their holy canon because they need a narrator to give them substance. My character is the only one that exists. Solipsistic meandering in the thread of a forum.

Wasn’t Plato warning about mimesis tho?

...what?

A c0da-esque rendition of the argument that multiple alternate universes exist for each choice the player makes and are all valid, thus rendering the idea of a single "canon" irrelevant. What's true for my character is true for me, and what's true for your character is true for you, and its all true from a certain point of view with no outside standard of what's true. Except that the argument over this is never-ending.


Which just isnt true.

Bethesda and ESO do resolve some of those multiple alternate universes through the in game narrative.

No matter what you chose in Daggerfall, the Warp in the West happened with a definite result.

No matter what you do as the Nerevarine to strengthen Morrowind and your chosen Great House, the destruction of the Oblivion Crisis and Red Year is inevitable.

No matter how much your Dragonborn derped around, Alduin clearly didnt eat the universe and start a new kalpa. (Unless that's the big plot twist of TES6 )

No matter what choice you make about Naryu's apprentice,

Veya still becomes the villain of Summerset, only change is whether you learn her name.

No matter what choice you make with Raz and the elven circlet

he still makes it out okay.

Sure, Bethesda and even ESO leave plenty of things open ended. We don't what killed Nerevar or exactly what happened to the Dwemer. We only have rumors to go on for what happened to the Nerevarine after Blood moon (and the suspicious lack of info from the Dragonborn DLC). Where the games don't speak, there's plenty of room for speculation, headcanon, fanon, and individual ideas.

But when the games speak on a topic, either through gameplay or from reputable in game sources...that's the canon. No one gets to say "The Warp in the West didn't happen" or "My Nerevarine let Dagoth Ur conquer Morrowind". That canonically didnt happen.

Eporem

khajiitNPC wrote: »

I always begin with Aurbis which in the old language means arena then go from there. The scrolls are constantly changing. We go blind trying to pin down the point from egg to chrysalis to moth.

The moth priests know it too. Moths leave a powdery scale on everything. The same with dragons. There is no time and all possibilities exist along side those that actually exist. Momentary solidification of time.

Waking up is so hard when the dancers are on the tower. The serpent is a circle. ESO’s insignia is an ouroboric depiction of each alliance devouring and regurgitating it’s self.

A ceaseless battle. Yeah fictional worlds, maybe, but c0da is endgame stuff. I’m fine with those who clutch their holy canon because they need a narrator to give them substance. My character is the only one that exists. Solipsistic meandering in the thread of a forum.

Wasn’t Plato warning about mimesis tho?

In reading of the Nature of the Elder Scrolls from here: https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Elder_Scrolls - and because I do not know for sure so question it - Are there not any scrolls that have become fixed? and if so would this not be considered 'canon'. And also too I am curious about how you see C0da as being - its meaning to you.

Once a prophecy contained in an Elder Scroll is enacted in Tamriel, the text of the parchment becomes fixed. After that time, all readers ingest the same divine message, creating a historical document declaring the unequivocal truth of a past event. The contents of a scroll, once solidified, cannot be altered by any known magic.[2]

Nature

The Elder Scrolls are said to "exceed both Aedra and Daedra,"[6] implying that neither group of deities created them.

Until the events each Scroll describes comes to pass, they contain information about possible events in the future, with each viewing containing a possible version of events.[7] Once a prophecy contained in an Elder Scroll is enacted in Tamriel, the text of the parchment becomes fixed. After that time, all readers ingest the same divine message, creating a historical document declaring the unequivocal truth of a past event. The contents of a scroll, once solidified, cannot be altered by any known magic.[2]

The Scrolls have some relation to time, and offer a view through a fixed point in time to the flow to time itself.[7] However, they appear to be dependent on the flow of time in order to function; events which alter the linearity of time, known as Dragon Breaks, cannot be recorded or predicted by the Elder Scrolls.[8]

Paarthurnax explains that dragons are uniquely vulnerable to the effects of the Elder Scrolls, being born of Akatosh, the god of time. This would explain how Alduin was cast into the future and how a Time Wound was formed at the point of his exile.[9]

khajiitNPC

@VaranisArano Lore proper definitely exists, I too believe that certain events are unchangable. My musing on the url, is why? And I know it’s definitely a nod or wink or Easteregg or whatever. But what a wink! The king of worms would smile at such a can being open.

My arguement isn’t so much that canon is irrelevant. Mine is hinged on the intention of Schick including such a divisive bit to the community, knowing full well the implications of directing users to that cite. I’m willing to accept it as nothing more than a nod.

But I still believe this is an endorsement and invitation for people to actively create their lore.

khajiitNPC

@Eporem the scrolls are a tricky subject and honestly not one I feel competent enough to discuss outside of the very little stuff I know. I know that the scrolls are said to exist outside of time. And some would argue that they exist and don’t exist simultaneously. I think the Greybeards considered them a blasphemy but I don’t know if that was every expanded on. Also it’s been recorded that the scrolls are innumerable, some poor guy tried to do inventory on the scrolls and the count kept changing.

c0da to me is an affirmation that lore doesn’t exclusively belong to the franchise, a deceleration that can exist along side “lore proper”, that is until it can’t any longer because of what becomes canonical. Thankfully there are like minded individuals out there who believe in open source story telling. A lot of amazing stuff has been produced not only in the sense of writing but as well as game mods that expand (and some with the blessing of Bethesda), the lore that we know.

Ogou

khajiitNPC wrote: »

@VaranisArano Lore proper definitely exists, I too believe that certain events are unchangable. My musing on the url, is why? And I know it’s definitely a nod or wink or Easteregg or whatever. But what a wink! The king of worms would smile at such a can being open.

My arguement isn’t so much that canon is irrelevant. Mine is hinged on the intention of Schick including such a divisive bit to the community, knowing full well the implications of directing users to that cite. I’m willing to accept it as nothing more than a nod.

But I still believe this is an endorsement and invitation for people to actively create their lore.

It's not the first nod to Kirkbride's stuff in the game. There's also that Redguard in IC sewers who talks about the KINMUNE conspiracy.

wenchmore420b14_ESO

So much homage to Kirkbride here.
Remember, he just told a few stories in someone else's world.
The "Godfather" of Tamriel and Divine Lore is Juliean LeFey, writer and creater of TES1-Arena.
Ted Peterson gave us Daggerfall and the Dragon break.
Kirkbride gave us the exotic side of Morrowind and a DLC in Oblivion.

All that is canon. His c0da is not canon, but fanfiction.
Bethesda/Zenimax decides what is canon by what goes into the game. If it is in the game, it's canon, if not, just fanfiction.
ZoS put the 37th Sermon in as a "Nostalgia/ Tip-o-the-hat" to TES3 and easter egg for the "TES Lore Nerds" out there. (Like us )
Other great writers of TES Lore.....
Chris Franzea who gave us "Lyg"
Wynne McLaughlin
Randy Begal, and so many more.

Kirkbride was good, and he helped make Morrowind, imo, the best of the 10 TES games.But.he is not the "all-end-all" of TES lore and I'm really glad his later "Fanfiction has not made it to canon lore...

Just my 2 Drakes... Huzzah!

Eporem

Would anyone happen to know when the Moth Priests and the Reading of the Scrolls first appeared in the Lore... or who wrote of them?

VaranisArano

Eporem wrote: »

Would anyone happen to know when the Moth Priests and the Reading of the Scrolls first appeared in the Lore... or who wrote of them?

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Cult_of_the_Ancestor_Moth

From what I see here, 1st Ed Pocket Guide to the Empire. They appear in Oblivion and Skyrim.

Bruccius

Eporem wrote: »

Would anyone happen to know when the Moth Priests and the Reading of the Scrolls first appeared in the Lore... or who wrote of them?

They were first mentioned in the Pocket Guide to the Empire, First Edition: Cyrodiil, a work of Michael Kirkbride.

They have appeared in TES IV, TES V (Dawnguard) and ESO.

EDIT:
If you want to read up on the Cult, be sure to check out this article:
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Cult_of_the_Ancestor_Moth

Eporem

@wenchmore420b14_ESO

Came across this early writer of Elder Scrolls as well. I found the whole podcast interesting, little insights into this games development and where inspirations first came from for this and how this has continued - at about 14:36 into the podcast he also talks about how the name Elder Scrolls came to be.

https://audioboom.com/posts/7102926-everyone-is-a-hero-of-their-own-story-with-vijay-lakshman

I like too what was written about the Elder Scrolls themselves, though I am not sure who wrote this - that they are ever changing in their numbers and why this is to me is because of the input/actions/coda:) of the player base having the ability to add/change the scrolls themselves.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Elder_Scrolls

Bruccius

Eporem wrote: »

@wenchmore420b14_ESO

Came across this early writer of Elder Scrolls as well. I found the whole podcast interesting, little insights into this games development and where inspirations first came from for this and how this has continued - at about 14:36 into the podcast he also talks about how the name Elder Scrolls came to be.

https://audioboom.com/posts/7102926-everyone-is-a-hero-of-their-own-story-with-vijay-lakshman

I like too what was written about the Elder Scrolls themselves, though I am not sure who wrote this - that they are ever changing in their numbers and why this is to me is because of the input/actions/coda:) of the player base having the ability to add/change the scrolls themselves.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Elder_Scrolls

The Scrolls changing in number and all that is actually still up to debate, in part because we know that there exist Moth Priests who need to find and retrieve Elder Scrolls for Librarians in the White-Gold Tower.

Aside from that, yes. The Elder Scrolls are a big ''what if'' ordeal, showing a lot of what may be. Only when these steps are, gradually, completed do their words become fact within the Scroll.