Warden’s Netch is an overloaded ability

reprosal

Free cast, stam or magicka regen (with a purge..) as well as major brutality or sorcery.

Discuss..

Vietfox

No, it's fine.
/thread

Vlad9425

By that logic half the abilities in the game are overloaded lol.

MisterBigglesworth

Reposting this from a earlier thread
Honestly not sure how accurate it is anymore since I don't play Warden

Taleof2Cities

Except the OP forgot the about the part where Warden DPS doesn’t need any further nerfs.

md3788

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Except the OP forgot the about the part where Warden DPS doesn’t need any further nerfs.

I'd be willing to bet hes talking about PvP

reprosal

Stamden is fine for PvE. I just think that Stamplar should get a free stam recovery ability too.

MooseKnuckles88

First, let's discuss how long Magicka Wardens have been the worst and now the second worst behind Magcro before you go too far into that.

Insco851

Yea I like this thread. Op never mentions the free purge. Keep it that way.

Ayastigi

Is everybody gonna start calling things "overtuned" and "overloaded" instead of saying they think it's op lol

SodanTok

OP must have missed Ele drain.

ESO_Nightingale

XD

AcadianPaladin

Netch is a good skill. With only 10 skill slots, I really want skills that do multiple things and have reasonable durations like Netch does. The Surge skill that sorcs have is another nice skill in that regard. As is Elemental Drain (destro staff).

My point is to bring more skills up to the effectiveness of Netch. The last thing I want to see is solid skills like Netch nerfed. I already avoid magic shield skills for example - 6 seconds? What a joke.

WildRaptorX

3 classes have skills that have no cost. Only the magic Netch has a purge. It’s literally another version of rally. Shall we nerf that too?

idk

Vietfox wrote: »

No, it's fine.

Exactly. OP chooses to look at the skill in a vacuum which tends to lead to false assumptions as is stated in the OP. When compared to the Templars rune it is very comparable.

x48rph

Just like NO period. Sometimes I think these forums are just full of people who hate the game. Constantly trying to find reasons for nerfs to everything almost like they want the game to fail itself. Seriously, leave netch alone it's one of the few things magden has going for it.

Runefang

Riiight. Thats why Magdens are so powerful.

reprosal

Nightblade's Mark Target was given a 0 cost because people were comparing it to Elemental Drain.

I did mention the free purge.

What I dislike is Stamcro has a 2700 stamina cost for skeletal archert, lasts less time so you are only netting 1500 penetration and +600 stamina overall with a very low damage associated with it. Stamplar costs 8xx, lasts less time but gives 240 per second.

If they want to call some abilities overtuned, they should look at all of them, not just a specific class because it is performing well.

LeHarrt91

But Magicka Wardens who use blue betty which purges 1 effect and has a GCD due to cast animation, and only have 3 damage skills in there DPS tree. the last two ar just buffs.

idk

reprosal wrote: »

Stamden is fine for PvE. I just think that Stamplar should get a free stam recovery ability too.

This comment demonstrates how correct I was when I said you had not compared the two skills and I happened to have suggested comparing it to a templar which makes this even more ironic.

First of all, you falsely state the Warden skill has purge. Purge is the name of a specific skill that cleanses multiple debuffs if they can be cleaned. The Magden morph will clean only one skill. The stamina morph will not clean any. Just getting facts straight. Templar has access to a very cheap and effective cleans.

For comparing the actual magicka and stam return for each skill. Armor cost reduction passives are not included. Only the templar received such a benefit to their skill

Magcika
Templar 190 m/s 1037 magicka cost. Returns 5040 over 20 seconds.
Magden 192 m/s 5376 magicka over 27 seconds (should be 28 ticks total)

Stamina
Stamplar 195 m/s 844 cost Returns 5040 over 20 seconds.
Stamden 192 S/S 5376 stam over 27 seconds (should be 28 ticks total)

So the difference is infinitesimal and it is even better for the Templar since they can utilize armor passives for cost reduction to lower their cost even further increasing the benefit per cast.

Casul

Leave my jelly alone!

MooseKnuckles88

idk wrote: »

reprosal wrote: »

Stamden is fine for PvE. I just think that Stamplar should get a free stam recovery ability too.

This comment demonstrates how correct I was when I said you had not compared the two skills and I happened to have suggested comparing it to a templar which makes this even more ironic.

First of all, you falsely state the Warden skill has purge. Purge is the name of a specific skill that cleanses multiple debuffs if they can be cleaned. The Magden morph will clean only one skill. The stamina morph will not clean any. Just getting facts straight. Templar has access to a very cheap and effective cleans.

For comparing the actual magicka and stam return for each skill. Armor cost reduction passives are not included. Only the templar received such a benefit to their skill

Magcika
Templar 190 m/s 1037 magicka cost. Returns 5040 over 20 seconds.
Magden 192 m/s 5376 magicka over 27 seconds (should be 28 ticks total)

Stamina
Stamplar 195 m/s 844 cost Returns 5040 over 20 seconds.
Stamden 192 S/S 5376 stam over 27 seconds (should be 28 ticks total)

So the difference is infinitesimal and it is even better for the Templar since they can utilize armor passives for cost reduction to lower their cost even further increasing the benefit per cast.

Mic drop

Turelus

reprosal wrote: »

Free cast, stam or magicka regen (with a purge..) as well as major brutality or sorcery.

Discuss..

And yet a lot of people still agree they're not performing as well as every other class, so it can't be that bad.

reprosal

idk wrote: »

reprosal wrote: »

Stamden is fine for PvE. I just think that Stamplar should get a free stam recovery ability too.

This comment demonstrates how correct I was when I said you had not compared the two skills and I happened to have suggested comparing it to a templar which makes this even more ironic.

First of all, you falsely state the Warden skill has purge. Purge is the name of a specific skill that cleanses multiple debuffs if they can be cleaned. The Magden morph will clean only one skill. The stamina morph will not clean any. Just getting facts straight. Templar has access to a very cheap and effective cleans.

For comparing the actual magicka and stam return for each skill. Armor cost reduction passives are not included. Only the templar received such a benefit to their skill

Magcika
Templar 190 m/s 1037 magicka cost. Returns 5040 over 20 seconds.
Magden 192 m/s 5376 magicka over 27 seconds (should be 28 ticks total)

Stamina
Stamplar 195 m/s 844 cost Returns 5040 over 20 seconds.
Stamden 192 S/S 5376 stam over 27 seconds (should be 28 ticks total)

So the difference is infinitesimal and it is even better for the Templar since they can utilize armor passives for cost reduction to lower their cost even further increasing the benefit per cast.

It still is an upfront free cast which procs their passive to gain instant resources back to. It is not just about the recovery. It is the fact that it offers free major brutality / sorcery as well for free.

Custos91

Are you sure this isn't just you saying you want that on other classes as well?
Because look ar reality, netch may be overloaded, but Warden as whole is not doing fine at all.

You could even argue frost cloak is overloaded, or shimmering shield, or shalks...

Reality is, Warden has a lot of buffs and debuffs, but also only:
2 offensive ults

Cliffracer
Shalks
Fetcherflies
frost aoe
(technicalls frozen gate, it does some damage, but I would not count that as an offensive abbility)
for offense.

2 (3) of those do not have a stamina morph.


Wardens group buff can't be triggered by DPS without applying lifesteal or simmilar shenanigans
Wardens synergy is tied to a heal and a portal that teleports the user around

Bear has a completely stupid AI, doesn't scale with bloodthirsty (despite being Wardens "execute) and is meele, and not even fast.
Bear is the only viable ultimate in pve for dps, doesn't matter if it is *** or not, on fights were it doesn't work, you would lose massive dps (Liko stated 6k less on the raiddummy for Magden, putting the worst class even further behind)
Likos tests:
Magicka warden 86k DPS
without bear 80 k

91k for one pet sorc, 93 for two pet sorc
97k for stamden
and
101k for stamina necromancer.

Please tell me why it would be fair to take something from a class, that has been THE worst in magicka terms basically since they got released?

Taking things from netch:
spellpower: You just hurt warden healer, congrats
magicka Regen: Healer and Magden just lost a good amount of sustain.
3% passive: You can't unless you move netch to another tree? I doubt you can classify it as a plant xD
Stamina regen: Well, you could take that away, but there is no reason for it, because this isn't making anybody overperform.
also you just eliminated the stamina regen while blocking for Warden (other classes have such a mechanic somewhere, looking at helping hands here)
Brutality: Sure, take this away, pve players use pots, brutality is abundant, however there is no reason again, because this is not making warden overperform, especially because this buff is so easy to get compared to the magicka version of it (entropy, pot or class, or you lost)
Purge: Sure, take that away, guess I will take the stamina morph now (did so for pvp anyways once, because this stamaina regen is not scaling with medium or whatever passives, so I could get a decent boost for breaking free and sprinting)
Also: if you take purge away, what exactly does this morph offer over the base version?

So, we move on to animal companions passives:
You can take the heal away...that would not do anything in 99% of the scenarios here xD Netch I only spam for the heal when I fell down somewhere in a pve setup where I do not have a heal on my bar
you can't change the 3% damage passive, warden is SUFFERING as it is already, imagine another 3-4% nerf if you took that down to 2%
Ulti gen: why? also shalks or birds will trigger it on cooldown on everything that isn't a healer / tank build
Regen passive: I swear, warden healers are going to kill you if you touch that, unneccesary nerf for healers and tanks and also DPS...

So WHAT in the name of the eight do you want to change?
and what does warden get in return?

Look at the leaderboards, Warden was already underrepresented before they added necro...
And yes, magicka necro isn't doing to hot either,

BUT

A magicka necro will still bring the major vulnerability for a group, so even if magnecro were 10 -15k below warden, he would still boost the group dps as a whole, and offer a synergy on top along with crazy ult regen.

Conclusion:
Yes, Netch is slightly overloaded and a cornerstone in many builds.
However, you can not touch the skill without crippling warden or do changes that just don't make sense.

and again:
Can you please say what you envision instead? what changes would be sensible in your mind?
Do you have a warden? do you know how frustrating Magden can be? how clunky a rotation with shalks is? how awkward the dot timers and the weaving of the birds is ?

Worst of all:
It is basically impossible to find out about many things, because there are just not many warden players of certain playstyles left...

reprosal

I simply want ZoS to stop gutting or ignoring other classes simply because they are more mainstream.

Raudgrani

That's BS. Every damn class has something slightly similar. Quit complaining about eeeeverything... If it isn't something giving you like 200 stamina/magicka, and extra resistance unheard of for every other class, it's an ability to flush your secondary resource into your primary - and get a decent heal at that. Stop complaining.

reprosal

Who said I was complaining? Comparing regen/sustain abilities, this one is rather stacked. Bring the others up to par.

Defilted

Couple things.

Stam version has no purge
Magika version does have a puge

Necros have 2 or 4 abilty purge that is awesome. The two purge option has a mag and stam recovery secondary ability as well. Comparing this to Blue betty 1 abilty purge free cast seems balanced to me. There is of course the templar purge as well.

I dont see when comparing abilities how blue betty is over powered. Maybe I am missing something..

Onefrkncrzypope

Pssst Stam jelly does both brutality and sorcery..... Nerrrf to the ground I say.

Taleof2Cities

reprosal wrote: »

I simply want ZoS to stop gutting or ignoring other classes simply because they are more mainstream.

If you think ZOS’s mindset going into evaluating class balance is solely based upon class popularity ... then you should probably do some introspection yourself.

Because it appears you haven’t moved on from May 2019 ... when the latest class combat changes debuted.

Unfortunately, that ship has sailed.

Your choices are:

1. Move on like every other affected player and make the small changes or tweaks to your build (to adapt to the class changes).

2. Find another MMO to play ... where your version of balance fits into that game’s so-called “mainstream”.