Magicka vs Stamina Skill Balance

WrathOfInnos

This is going to be a conversation spurred by the release of the Necromancer class. Unlike all the other classes in ESO, Necro is the first in which the active and passive class skills are more beneficial to Stamina than Magicka builds (Warden has a good amount of Stamina morphs, but still had a few good ones reserved for Magicka). This could be an interesting design direction, to help make Stam builds in general feel more unique between classes, but the problem is that supplementary skill lines (guilds, alliance, and weapons) already heavily favor Stamina. As a result, Stamina Necro gets access to all of the best skills and is currently one of the highest DPS builds. Magicka Necro has little to separate itself from Stamina Necro, and much less access to good non-class skills, and is currently one of the worst (if not absolute lowest) DPS builds.

Without spending too much more time on Necromancer-specific details, I want to go into some comparisons of non-class skills. This will include some ideas on how to make Magicka and Stamina more balanced outside of class skills, to allow balance of the current Necromancer builds and allow for future expansion of other class Stamina morphs. I will be focusing on this from an end-game PvE perspective, since that is what I am most familiar with, but I believe much of this comparison is applicable to other parts of the game as well.

ST DoT
Destructive Clench/Reach vs Poison Injection
Adding up the direct and DoT damage and accounting for the execute scaling of Injection, it is clear that this Bow skill does approximately double the damage per cast of the Destruction skill. This is why virtually all Stamina DPS slot it, and almost no Magicka DPS builds currently do. You could make the argument that Clench/Reach also provide some benefits from CC (knockback, immobilize or stun), but these are largely undesirable in group PVE (interferes with tank positioning adds) and most enemies in trials are immune to these effects.

Secondary ST DoT’s
Most stamina builds use another ST DoT in addition to Poison Injection, most often Rending Slashes. The closest non-class skill we can use for comparison on Magicka would be Soul Trap. This is another example where the stamina version deals approximately double the damage of the Magicka version (and also ignores armor). Soul trap could use a significant damage increase. To be clear here, I’m aware that Magicka builds often have class ST DoTs that stam does not have (swarm, curse, vamp bane, etc.), I’m saying that equalizing the non-class ones is a necessary step for balancing classes that already have equivalent stam DoTs (Necro, and to a lesser extent DK) and would open up the possibility of getting stam morphs of more class abilities in the future.

Direct Damage AoE
Impulse vs Whirling Blades
Whirling deals slightly higher base damage even against enemies at full health. Add to that the execute built into the skill (scaling up to double damage against low health enemies) and the dual wield passive execute and there’s no comparison between the effectiveness of these skills. Impulse could use a damage increase of around 30% and/or a more useful debuff than the unreliable (due to immunities) Mangle on the Pulsar morph.

AoE DoT
Various Class Skills vs Caltrops
These seem fairly balanced. Razor Caltrops deals damage in a large area, and is comparable in DPS to skills such as Liquid Lightning, Blazing Spear, and Winter’s Revenge. The additional utility from the class skills balances out the larger radius on Caltrops. I have no balance issues with these as they exist currently, but want to point out that the existence of Caltrops is why class ground based AoE’s do not need stamina morphs.

Ground Based Trap
Rearming Trap vs Scalding Rune
Probably the biggest discrepancy between Stam and Mag skills. Trap deals approximately double the damage per cast of Rune (plus an additional 20% more to Undead and Daedra), so clearly Rune needs a significant damage increase. Trap also provide Minor Force for 10% increased Crit Damage. I would be in favor of adding this same buff to Scalding Rune, since Magicka builds are currently too dependent on Channeled Acceleration.

Execute
Class Skills vs Poison Injection + Whirling Blades or Executioner
Half the classes have a built-in execute, so this is not an issue for Sorcs, Nightblades, or Templar’s. However, Magicka Dragonknight, Warden, and Necro have no options here. My recommendation would be to apply the execute scaling from Whirling Blades onto Force Pulse. This would give some incentive for certain builds to use FP over Elemental weapon, or even slot both. To be clear, FP would do current level of damage from 100% to 50%, then start scaling up linearly (20% more damage at 40% health, 50% at 25% health, 80% at 10% health, and final blow 100% damage bonus). This would be fitting IMO since it would mirror the morph choices on Poison Injection (interrupt with Crushing Shock or scale up for execute damage). Force Pulse would not perform as well in execute as Radiant or Impale, but might still be worth using on some Nightblade or Templar builds to save a bar slot.

Heal
Class Skills vs Vigor
This one is a little tough to compare, given the variety of class heals. I think it’s fair to say that they are generally on-par, and this is why most class heals do not have or need a stamina morph. The presence of class heals is also why Vigor does not need a Magicka morph.

Damage Shield
Harness/Dampen vs Bone Shield
Surprisingly, following all the nerfs to Magicka damage shields, Stamina damage shields seem to be about equally strong. The initial shield is smaller (30% of health vs 40-50%), but Medium armor offers more reduction of damage the shield takes . The additional shield granted by an ally activating the synergy makes Bone Shield offer much more protection in a coordinated group. The synergy is also helpful to keep Lokkestiiz and Alkosh uptime high, and is more valuable in groups for that reason. And the morph choice either allows the user to deal damage to attackers or grants Major Vitality. Dampen has no additional effects, and Harness simply offers a small resource return (which is helpful because it’s base cost is over 20% higher than Bone Shield).

Passive Buffs
Fighters Guild vs Mage’s Guild/Support
I would say that the basic passives for slotting skills are similar between stam and mag, 3% weapon damage vs 2% Max Magicka and 2% Magicka Regen seems balanced. The main difference that stands out is the benefit from giving up an ultimate slot for a passive. The 8% weapon damage from Dawnbreaker far exceeds the standard passives for slotting Meteor or the 10% Magicka Regen from slotting Barrier. Maybe this is intended to be balanced by the 7% Magicka granted for slotting Inner Light, but IL is noticeably weaker. I think it’s actually easier to fit a “passive” Ultimate then to give up a main bar slot (since most builds only use one ultimate anyway, but all 10 skill slots are valuable). Not sure if much needs to be done here, maybe a minor increase to the benefit of Inner Light from 7% to 10% Max Mag would be enough (this would be a buff of about 1% DPS to pretty much all Mag builds except pet Sorc, since they don’t have the bar space to slot it, and is one step toward allowing no-pets Sorcs to be competitive again).

Damage Dealing Synergy
Shadow Silk vs Mystic Orbs
While difficult to quantify exactly how much damage each of these Undaunted skills provides, I think it’s pretty well established how powerful the spiders can be. On the other side, when was the last time anyone used blue “damage” orbs on a DPS build. There is no comparison between these skills, and IMO Mystic Orbs needs a redesign rather than a magnitude adjustment.

Single Target Channeled Ultimate
Soul Assault vs Ballista
The damage output of these two abilities is very similar, but the difference is that Soul Assault prevents use of other skills for the duration. Ballista allows a full rotation while it deals damage. Alternatively, there is the Toxic Barrage morph that is more similar to Soul Assault, but it is given approximately 50% more damage.

Area Damage Ultimate
Magicka DPS have both Meteor and the Destruction Staff ultimate, as well as class ultimates such as Nova, Northern Storm, and Veil of Blades. This is an area where Stam falls behind. The two handed and bow ultimates are single target, and the dual wield ultimate is a very small area. Dawnbreaker is the only physical damage option and it is fairly small as well. I would recommend increasing the area of both Dawnbreaker and Lacerate. Otherwise, I believe it would be fair to give some class AoE ultimates a morph that deals one of the physical damage types.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on build imbalances outside Class Skill lines. And bringing these more in line would help Magicka Necro and Warden compete with their Stamina counterparts. It would also open a door to future expansion of Stamina morphs for Class Skills on the original 4 classes.

WrathOfInnos

I’ll add an example that may illustrate the point in trying to make here. Comparing Magicka (best example of a Magicka class that is in a good place) and Stamina Sorcerer (most bland build that is most requested for more Stam morphs), which are currently one of the more balanced classes when comparing the two build types. Looking line by line, we can pair similar skills in their toolkits.

Magicka - Stamina
Liquid Lightning - Razor Caltrops (AoE DoT)
Blockade - Endless Hail (AoE DoT with Maelstrom Weapon Effect)
Curse - Poison Injection (single target DoT)
Volatile Familiar - Hurricane (AoE DoT)
Twilight - Rearming Trap (single target DoT)
Crystal Frags - Rending Slashes (additional single target damage ability that is cheap enough to help with sustain)
Elemental Weapon - Flurry (single target spammable)
Elemental Ring - Whirling Blades (AoE spammable)
Boundless Storm - Quick Cloak (survivability, speed, and weak AoE DoT)
Storm Atronach - Ballista (single target ultimate)
Meteor - Dawnbreaker (AoE ultimate)
Bound Aegis - Bound Armaments (small damage buff and minor resists)
Empowered Ward - Vigor (self survival with group utility)
Power Surge - Crit Surge (self heal and damage buff)
Endless Fury - Executioner or Whirling

Now reviewing this list, we can see that every combat need is covered for both builds. Mag Sorc gets 11 of these necessary skills from Class Lines and 4 from supplementary lines. Stam Sorc gets 3 of these skills from Class Lines and 12 from supplementary lines. This doesn’t make one inherently stronger or weaker, just more or less interesting and unique. And if we were to give Stam Sorc a morph of Frags and Storm Atronach, then Mag Sorc would need to gain equally useful supplementary skills such as a worthwhile Soul Trap ST DoT and a stronger version of Scalding Rune.

Simply bringing Stam Sorc up to 11 good class skills would put them at a total of 23 solid skills to choose from (basically how the Stam Necro was designed, best of both worlds), while Magicka would be left with the same 11 class skills and mostly garbage outside of those 3 class skill lines.

Illuvatarr

Stam will always be stronger as long as dodge roll/block/break free are based off of stam and as long as there is no stamina negate equivalent in game.

Ender1310

Well done mate. I play both sides so with some perspective I will say what irks me most about Stam is the dependency on weapon skill lines that make all the builds feel the same. Warden is a pleasant Chang from this but for the most part Stam sorc uses same weap skills as stamblade and DK respectively. Dk is a bit different because dots >spammable for them but still. As you mentioned Warden is pleasant change. I honestly would not care about strength if I could feel like a shadowy NB assassin instead of a weapon user with two non flashy Assad in skills equipped. So I’ll endorse your opinions for that alone. Or go other route and add Stam morphs to other classes and lower dps on guild /weapon skills.

CambionDaemon

The first thing that they should do is reduce the cost of magicka skills by at least 20% (30-40% really due to the fact that stam does so much more damage). Then start rebuilding the skills trees of the original four classes (including passives) to bring them up to date with the new two.

BlackMadara

I would be for making magicka non class skills stronger and more interesting. The old game design of bulk magicka class skills and bulk stamina weapon skills is outdated. I believe that guild, world, and vamp should be fleshed out, leaving more stamina variety for weapon lines.

cHIIMEERa

Rendish slashes called me, he told me to tell you that he is not a secondary dot to any poison injection. Now he’s out to get you.

Insightful post though!

idk

I stopped at the comparison of Destructive Clench/Reach vs Poison Injection because I realized the OP is not a well thought out discussion of balance. You cannot just pick two skills and compare them like is done above and get worthy information.

Those skills are not intended to be similar or comparable so it is really just moot and pointless. OP goes on to compare scalding rune to rearming trap and other totally different types of skills.

While it is a worthy discussion to compare magicka to stamina on a whole, the approach above does not in any way provide any value unless you are wanting Zos to make all magicka skills like stamina and we can have a very boring game.

Mayrael

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Stam will always be stronger as long as dodge roll/block/break free are based off of stam and as long as there is no stamina negate equivalent in game.

Basically this. Stamina has 2 very effective ways of mitigation available without need of slotting any skills. Break free based of stamina also means there is no need to worry about cc lock. This difference is extremely visible in noCP fights where magicka toons need to save stamina as the most precious resource, also it is impossible to be effective magicka user in noCP without investing in stamina. I know that best stamina builds invest something in magicka to, but it's not as crucial. It wasn't problem back in the past when stamina didn't had any stam based heals, but these days we have full arsenal of such skills that are as strong or even better than magicka ones.

I always thought that at least break free should be based on highest stat or based on type of weapon used. Second approach is what I like more because it would allow for more diveristy for tanks using ice staff and S&B.

CambionDaemon

I have always thought that Streak should be a defensive tool, make it omni-directional and double its range, that way it would would like a magical dodge (it gets a increased cost like one anyway).

WrathOfInnos

idk wrote: »

I stopped at the comparison of Destructive Clench/Reach vs Poison Injection because I realized the OP is not a well thought out discussion of balance. You cannot just pick two skills and compare them like is done above and get worthy information.

Those skills are not intended to be similar or comparable so it is really just moot and pointless. OP goes on to compare scalding rune to rearming trap and other totally different types of skills.

While it is a worthy discussion to compare magicka to stamina on a whole, the approach above does not in any way provide any value unless you are wanting Zos to make all magicka skills like stamina and we can have a very boring game.

Feel free to disagree with me about balance, but calling scalding rune and rearming trap “totally different” is incorrect. The effects and even tooltip wording are nearly identical. Trap just gains a free immobilize, a crit damage buff, and more damage, all at a lower cost.





The same goes for Poison Arrow and Destructive Touch. Effects and wording are very similar, and both fall under the primary ranged weapon skill like for either Stamina or Magicka. The only difference is that Touch gains a specific CC based on element type (which I specifically mentioned, and is more of a detriment than benefit in end-game PVE). Poison arrow is simply cheaper, longer ranged, and deals more damage. It also has arguably better morphs (interrupt or execute scaling).





I generally agree with the point that Stamina and Magicka should have different play styles to not become homogenous and boring. However, this was clearly not the direction chosen for Necromancer design. Basically Necro DPS do not get to choose morphs, they must run either the Stam or Mag morph on everything in accordance with their primary resource (the one exception being Boneyard, which does offer a choice of debuffs or self-synergy). This is IMO very bland and boring, as well as disrupting the balance between Stamina and Magicka at a higher level. If this trend continues (as the Stam Whip and Stam Frags threads keep requesting), I simply wanted to point out the bigger picture, and how all the pieces fit together for balance, not just class skills in isolation.

lassitershawn

idk wrote: »

I stopped at the comparison of Destructive Clench/Reach vs Poison Injection because I realized the OP is not a well thought out discussion of balance. You cannot just pick two skills and compare them like is done above and get worthy information.

Those skills are not intended to be similar or comparable so it is really just moot and pointless. OP goes on to compare scalding rune to rearming trap and other totally different types of skills.

While it is a worthy discussion to compare magicka to stamina on a whole, the approach above does not in any way provide any value unless you are wanting Zos to make all magicka skills like stamina and we can have a very boring game.

On clench/poison inject I assume you are saying this only because clench/reach have a stun attached (actually a downside in most group PvE). However from a damage perspective they definitely can be compared and poison injection is objectively superior to even clench (the damage morph of touch). An easy solution to make this skill PvE competitive would simply be to remove the stun from clench (most people use reach in PvP anyways), and up the damage.

How you don't see the comparisons between rune and trap are completely beyond me... both are traps that activate on enemy touching them, the only difference is trap is FAR better than rune. It does more damage and most importantly applies minor force while also acting as a decent DoT.

Honestly scalding rune is without doubt one of the most useless skills ingame atm. Even against an engulfing-debuffed target and including the mages guild empower passive one cast is barely worth more damage than a spammable and is ~600 magicka more expensive.

Imo, there are two ways to fix this. Scalding rune could give minor force like trap, OR it requires a substantial cost reduction (around FP cost I think would be fair), and a 30%+ damage increase on both the initial impact and DoT (and possibly shortening the length of the DoT without reducing the damage because it is done over a very long time for such little damage). I think this would allow it to become competitive on some classes with weaker skills that are only slotted because there isn't anything better. For example, I would definitely consider slotting scalding rune buffed in such a way instead of execute/magelight on 1-pet sorc in PvE and using it in a similar fashion to how shalks is used on wardens.

Iskiab

Nice write up.

One thing I think you’re overlooking is part of the design of ESO is melee specs are meant to do more damage then ranged specs.

Best solution - add a melee range weapon skill line where magicka classes can compete with stamina classes in melee range.

Sanguinor2

Iskiab wrote: »

Nice write up.

One thing I think you’re overlooking is part of the design of ESO is melee specs are meant to do more damage then ranged specs.

Best solution - add a melee range weapon skill line where magicka classes can compete with stamina classes in melee range.

Wish that melee Thing would actually Count for magicka classes, magdk is melee and the last time in the last 2 years it was competitive was because of a bug that was fixed on Monday and for templar slotting their melee spammable is actually a dps loss compared to slotting a ranged one. Also in nearly every Trial everyone stands in melee range anyway.

CambionDaemon

Iskiab wrote: »

Nice write up.

One thing I think you’re overlooking is part of the design of ESO is melee specs are meant to do more damage then ranged specs.

Best solution - add a melee range weapon skill line where magicka classes can compete with stamina classes in melee range.

Where does it state that? Stamina use to underperform until it was buffed extensively. The whole stamina is supposed to do more damage, came from Wrobel, after people were going on and on about it on the forums. Stamina should be weapon skills/dodging/rolling etc (physical actions) only, class skills should be magicka based across the board.

And a magicka melee weapon line would be awesome, but that isn't going to happen. They had the perfect chance with the Psijic Order skill line, but they messed that up (it should have been an entire line dedicated to magicka).

Just my opinion.

Jabbs_Giggity

Awesome write up, despite the negative comments.

Just out of curiosity for polling sake, would anyone be adverse to the concept of having two class templates upon creation? Let me explain.

One of the biggest arguments of "adding one stamina and one magicka morph of each skill" is that it creates homogeneous results. If a template, much like the Skill Advisor, were to be created for you to Choose for your Skill Trees to be Stamina-based or Magicka-based, would this not add significant build diversity? Each template could use a similar template of preset skills with two morphs each, only they would scale and operate differently based on the Template chosen. To reset the Template you would have to reset all skill lines using a Repec Scroll or pay the gold at the shrine.

Albeit, certain skills would have to be modified to not overperform as a Stam vs Mag option. A third Template could even be added as a Hybrid design, offering one Stamina-based morph and one Magicka-based morph to close the gap.

Or we can be simpletons and just request four morphs for each Class Skill being two Stamina and two Magicka to allow both options where each provides something different.

WoppaBoem

Very nice post. Thank you for your efforts. I hope the devs take notice as what you describe is maybe not seem by anyone but we all feel it if one theory craft for both sides.

WrathOfInnos

Iskiab wrote: »

Nice write up.

One thing I think you’re overlooking is part of the design of ESO is melee specs are meant to do more damage then ranged specs.

Best solution - add a melee range weapon skill line where magicka classes can compete with stamina classes in melee range.

@Iskiab I guess I didn’t say it very clearly, but I agree that melee should do more damage against a stationary target than ranged. Looking at my Sorcerer example, I believe that Stam Sorc is better in all the Craglorn trials, as well as vHoF and vMoL because these fights are often set up for stack and burn. Mag Sorc does better in vAS and vCR because there is a lot of movement and attacking from range is advantageous. The two builds perform very similarly in vSS, with Stam pulling ahead on Yolna and Mag on Lokke. The Stam build does a few k more DPS against a target dummy, but when more mechanics are added Mag can start to close the gap by hitting enemies while moving. IMO this is an example of good balance of power between a stam and a mag class. They have different play styles, but you can bring either one and be about equally successful. Necromancer and Warden are not at all like this, and bringing a Mag build of either drags down the group.

Seraphayel

Great thread!

There are several design choices I can’t understand and you pointed them out.

I think the biggest problem overall for Magicka DPS is the lack of a secondary DPS weapon next to Destruction Staff. On top of that the skills available for Destruction Staff are not on par with the Skills provided by Stamina weapons (except Wall of Elements and the Ultimate).

The biggest pain points are:

- Not having an execute Magicka skill in any non-class skill line, not even a passive one

- Destructive Touch vs. Poison Arrow

- Impulse vs. Whirlwind

- The laughable damage of Scalding Rune (that DoT should deal at least 5 times the damage it deals now, it’s a joke compared to Trap)

I think most of the problems can be solved when one of the Destructive Touch morphs is turned into a ranged execute DoT like Poison Injection and if the Scalding Rune damage finally gets adjusted. I mean they increased the damage a year or more ago but it’s still laughable in comparison. The same for Soul Trap. Why even have these skills when you don’t need it at all, not even for filling Soulgems?

Onefrkncrzypope

These aren't imbalances. You can compare apples to oranges and expect a kiwi.

If you really want to understand balance, you need to have experience enough to understand some things.

1. Every class spec that does not have a damage modifying passive is in the toilet. Not a buff to dots or extra sustain. I'm talking crit, wep damage, crit damage. But this won't kill a class by it self.
2. Every class spec that doesn't scale well in execute is in the toilet. Flurry is carrying SDK. Look at how well the breath spam worked out.(after the whirlwind change mid pts).
3. Broken skills and dumb mechanics


Not every class that has one of those issues is subpar but that but every sub par class has all three wrong with it.

Mdk, magden, magcro and stamplar.
Number three is the strongest btw

usmcjdking

Combat has already been trending towards unfun since Morrowind when Wrobel decided that skills should be second to Light Attacks and Heavy Attacks for whatever godawful reason.

Balance implications are widely unimportant until LA/HA damage is addressed.

WrathOfInnos

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

These aren't imbalances. You can compare apples to oranges and expect a kiwi.

If you really want to understand balance, you need to have experience enough to understand some things.

1. Every class spec that does not have a damage modifying passive is in the toilet. Not a buff to dots or extra sustain. I'm talking crit, wep damage, crit damage. But this won't kill a class by it self.
2. Every class spec that doesn't scale well in execute is in the toilet. Flurry is carrying SDK. Look at how well the breath spam worked out.(after the whirlwind change mid pts).
3. Broken skills and dumb mechanics


Not every class that has one of those issues is subpar but that but every sub par class has all three wrong with it.

Mdk, magden, magcro and stamplar.
Number three is the strongest btw

1. Which classes are these?
- Magplar has 10% Crit Dmg
- Stamplar has 10% Crit Dmg and 6% Weapon Dmg
- Magblade and Stamblade have 10% Crit Dmg and 4-6% Crit Chance, as well as 8% Max Magicka
- Sorcs have 2% Weapon + Spell Dmg per ability slotted (usually 6-10% for Mag and 2-6% for Stam), as well as 8% Max Magicka or Stamina
- Magden and Stamden have 3% damage done per Animal Companion ability, as well as 6% Magic and Frost Dmg
- Dragonknights have Standard of Might for 15% increased damage, and the new Molten Whip passive (up to 375 weapon and spell dmg, with admittedly strange conditions)
- Necromancers have 20%-40% increased Crit Chance in execute, and 1500 Physical and Spell Penetration (although the Spell Pen is not really needed due to Light Amor passives, so this seemingly equal passive is actually biased toward Stamcro)

2. I don’t play StamDK enough to comment on it specifically. I’m a little surprised Stamplars have not followed Stamcros, by swapping to a Battleaxe to gain an execute ability. It’s been a few patches since I played mine. Maybe the crit from daggers is too important for Templars? Then they may have to stick with just using Whirling Blades as a single target execute, which seems to be doing a fine job. I’ll also point out that Magblade has one of the best executes in the game, and is still not doing very well this patch.

3. I fully agree this is a big problem. If a class is based around a certain skill, and that skill ends up broken for several months, it really hurts the class. Mag Necro certainly comes to mind here, with Blast Bones unreliability in getting to the target, which then also makes Siphon unusable. And it’s not just new abilities, the number of bugs that get randomly introduced semi-weekly, and lack of responsiveness in fixing them, really is unacceptable.

I disagree that Mag Necro beats the rest of your list. MagDK is much higher DPS, but also requires a melee spot so should really be compared more with stam builds. I would also say that Magden performs better than Necro for solo content, although the Necro is probably better in a group (offers and synergy, Major Vuln, and the crit passive scales better from Warhorns). Again, I can’t speak directly for the meta Stamplar, but I would be extremely surprised if it did not outperform Mag Necro currently.

WrathOfInnos

usmcjdking wrote: »

Combat has already been trending towards unfun since Morrowind when Wrobel decided that skills should be second to Light Attacks and Heavy Attacks for whatever godawful reason.

Balance implications are widely unimportant until LA/HA damage is addressed.

I’m definitely glad that Heavy Attack builds have largely died off. Not sure what you’re opposed to about Light Attacks. Are you saying that weaving should not exist? Or just that it should be less than the current 20-25%? I could see Light Attacks being reduced to around 10-15% of total DPS, but I’m also not a fan of global nerfs that cause setbacks to progression groups (like Morrowind changes). This change would need to be accompanied by a global buff to something else that would give back the ~10% of DPS lost (maybe expansion of the Champion system).

WildRaptorX

I think magic and bow abilities get less damage because they have the HUGE advantage of being ranged abilities while standard stamina moves get 5-7 metres range

WildRaptorX

Mayrael wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Stam will always be stronger as long as dodge roll/block/break free are based off of stam and as long as there is no stamina negate equivalent in game.

Basically this. Stamina has 2 very effective ways of mitigation available without need of slotting any skills. Break free based of stamina also means there is no need to worry about cc lock. This difference is extremely visible in noCP fights where magicka toons need to save stamina as the most precious resource, also it is impossible to be effective magicka user in noCP without investing in stamina. I know that best stamina builds invest something in magicka to, but it's not as crucial. It wasn't problem back in the past when stamina didn't had any stam based heals, but these days we have full arsenal of such skills that are as strong or even better than magicka ones.

I always thought that at least break free should be based on highest stat or based on type of weapon used. Second approach is what I like more because it would allow for more diveristy for tanks using ice staff and S&B.

But magic gets shields, CC and better heals

Kova

Keylun wrote: »

I think magic and bow abilities get less damage because they have the HUGE advantage of being ranged abilities while standard stamina moves get 5-7 metres range

I agree this is the case in quite a few pve situations, but in most endgame content getting up close has been less of a problem for the last year or so.

In PvP the disadvantage is completely irrelevant. What good is range when a stronk melee build can close the gap before you can even get your first rotation in?

Ever see a sorc streak from a good stamina player? Looks like someone playing paddle ball.

Streak>gap close>streak>gap close>streak>gap close

WrathOfInnos

Keylun wrote: »

I think magic and bow abilities get less damage because they have the HUGE advantage of being ranged abilities while standard stamina moves get 5-7 metres range

That’s a fair point, and I tried to keep that in mind for skill comparisons (like Poison Injection vs Destructive Reach, or Pulsar vs Whirling Blades). Some are not quite as 1-to-1 like Soul Trap vs Rending Slashes. Maybe Rending should do 10-20% more because it is melee, but in many cases the melee options are doing 100% more damage.

To your point, maybe it would be more fair to make Scalding Rune mirror Lightweight Trap (ranged morph), rather than comparing it to Rearming Trap. This would still require increasing the damage of Scalding Rune by about 60%, and adding the Minor Force buff.

usmcjdking

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Combat has already been trending towards unfun since Morrowind when Wrobel decided that skills should be second to Light Attacks and Heavy Attacks for whatever godawful reason.

Balance implications are widely unimportant until LA/HA damage is addressed.

I’m definitely glad that Heavy Attack builds have largely died off. Not sure what you’re opposed to about Light Attacks. Are you saying that weaving should not exist? Or just that it should be less than the current 20-25%? I could see Light Attacks being reduced to around 10-15% of total DPS, but I’m also not a fan of global nerfs that cause setbacks to progression groups (like Morrowind changes). This change would need to be accompanied by a global buff to something else that would give back the ~10% of DPS lost (maybe expansion of the Champion system).

Nah, weaving is fine, but it shouldn't be a core mechanic behind reasonable DPS. It should be a layer of complexity used to squeeze out a few extra %, not the literal lynchpin of a combat system - it makes skills fundamentally impotent, especially in PVE.

I understand that single handedly massacring LA's would have significant implications on performance, but the combat system is legit not fun as is. It is in desperate need of reevaluation.

bardx86

Kova wrote: »

Keylun wrote: »

I think magic and bow abilities get less damage because they have the HUGE advantage of being ranged abilities while standard stamina moves get 5-7 metres range

I agree this is the case in quite a few pve situations, but in most endgame content getting up close has been less of a problem for the last year or so.

In PvP the disadvantage is completely irrelevant. What good is range when a stronk melee build can close the gap before you can even get your first rotation in?

Ever see a sorc streak from a good stamina player? Looks like someone playing paddle ball.

Streak>gap close>streak>gap close>streak>gap close

the forgot to add
Streak>gap close>streak>gap close>streak>gap close>dead sorc

Onefrkncrzypope

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

These aren't imbalances. You can compare apples to oranges and expect a kiwi.

If you really want to understand balance, you need to have experience enough to understand some things.

1. Every class spec that does not have a damage modifying passive is in the toilet. Not a buff to dots or extra sustain. I'm talking crit, wep damage, crit damage. But this won't kill a class by it self.
2. Every class spec that doesn't scale well in execute is in the toilet. Flurry is carrying SDK. Look at how well the breath spam worked out.(after the whirlwind change mid pts).
3. Broken skills and dumb mechanics


Not every class that has one of those issues is subpar but that but every sub par class has all three wrong with it.

Mdk, magden, magcro and stamplar.
Number three is the strongest btw

1. Which classes are these?
- Magplar has 10% Crit Dmg
- Stamplar has 10% Crit Dmg and 6% Weapon Dmg
- Magblade and Stamblade have 10% Crit Dmg and 4-6% Crit Chance, as well as 8% Max Magicka
- Sorcs have 2% Weapon + Spell Dmg per ability slotted (usually 6-10% for Mag and 2-6% for Stam), as well as 8% Max Magicka or Stamina
- Magden and Stamden have 3% damage done per Animal Companion ability, as well as 6% Magic and Frost Dmg
- Dragonknights have Standard of Might for 15% increased damage, and the new Molten Whip passive (up to 375 weapon and spell dmg, with admittedly strange conditions)
- Necromancers have 20%-40% increased Crit Chance in execute, and 1500 Physical and Spell Penetration (although the Spell Pen is not really needed due to Light Amor passives, so this seemingly equal passive is actually biased toward Stamcro)

2. I don’t play StamDK enough to comment on it specifically. I’m a little surprised Stamplars have not followed Stamcros, by swapping to a Battleaxe to gain an execute ability. It’s been a few patches since I played mine. Maybe the crit from daggers is too important for Templars? Then they may have to stick with just using Whirling Blades as a single target execute, which seems to be doing a fine job. I’ll also point out that Magblade has one of the best executes in the game, and is still not doing very well this patch.

3. I fully agree this is a big problem. If a class is based around a certain skill, and that skill ends up broken for several months, it really hurts the class. Mag Necro certainly comes to mind here, with Blast Bones unreliability in getting to the target, which then also makes Siphon unusable. And it’s not just new abilities, the number of bugs that get randomly introduced semi-weekly, and lack of responsiveness in fixing them, really is unacceptable.

I disagree that Mag Necro beats the rest of your list. MagDK is much higher DPS, but also requires a melee spot so should really be compared more with stam builds. I would also say that Magden performs better than Necro for solo content, although the Necro is probably better in a group (offers and synergy, Major Vuln, and the crit passive scales better from Warhorns). Again, I can’t speak directly for the meta Stamplar, but I would be extremely surprised if it did not outperform Mag Necro currently.

Can I start over? I'm a horrible writer:

1. Crap or weak or outdated passives
2. Poor execute performance
3. Poor toolkit implementation.


Underperforming class specs:

mDk (1 2 &3): too easy. Passives garbage, execute obviously garbage and tool kit made a spammable a burst skill that nerfs your spell damage...

Magblades(2ish 3): magblades have a great execute but needs to keep up more skills. Twisting and spectral bow and ulti and blade.. magplars I have met drop off into two dots and beam. With one of the most dynamic rotation it pumps out too little overall DPS. Why no buff to path damage again?

Magdens(2 3): no execute a doublele bar ulti with no added damage effect. Be far for birds but close for shalks... Frost damage .. dynamic rotation.

Stamplars (1 3): passives are weaker than the newer classes and updated passives. Potl has been broken for what years now?

Magcro(3): far for blastbones damage close for uptime. Frost damage.. corpse consumption.

This was lazy and short and not really backed up entirely but it's better than trying to match skill for skill Stam and mag.

master_vanargand

It is balanced on the calculation.
However, Stamina DPS must be near dangerous enemies.
Therefore, Magicka DPS which can attack from a distance is advantageous.
For other MMO, Melee DPS is about 10% more DPS than Ranged DPS.
But, Melee DPS is bullied in ESO.