Healers in vet dlc dungeons

zvavi

Just like dds are sometimes... Pugs, today my dlc was quite pleasant dd wise, the problem was a healer, that all he did the whole dungeon, is spam mutagen, with occasional barrier ultimate.many times i saw dds that he could save dying in front of my eyes. Many times he died to mechanics. My question is, should healers like that be kicked? Or not?(side note, no, no orbs)
Edit: it was a 1100+ cp healer.
Edit n2: @idk well then, you are correct, BoL totally could have been helpful there. Problem is, as i said, mutagen spam (not mutagen heal while dealing damage, mutagen heal is refresh it every 15~ seconds) and barrier on cd was the only thing he ever did. dds that he could save with a burst heal falling like flies beside him. His existence there would not change the outcome. He was dead weight. Looking back i shouldn't have wasted time ressing him. It was vMoS
Edit n3: @DocFrost72 if you would have read my post, like @Tasear did, you would have noticed, that he was not keeping dds alive.

Agenericname

They should be given a chance, ask for orbs and combat prayer or at least help with damage, try to communicate, if it is a no go, kick

In my experience there has been more communication in the vet DLCs than other dungeons. Many are receptive to the needs of the group. I would expect it to be the same with healers as any other role.

I've never seen a kick in a vet DLC except for either disconnects or someone asks.

zvavi

Agenericname wrote: »

In my experience there has been more communication in the vet DLCs than other dungeons. Many are receptive to the needs of the group. I would expect it to be the same with healers as any other role.

I've never seen a kick in a vet DLC except for either disconnects or someone asks.

I got kicked for wearing olorime on a tank (after a wipe). Queued again, got two people that didnt do vet yet, finished without one wipe, as you see, the ones that kick, are not always the best

MartiniDaniels

Yes they should be kicked right away, it is a dlc vet dungeon and if someone is not pulling his weight it is time.

If person doesn't know mechanics it's no problem, but if person doesn't have proper build for vet dlc nothing will help him and it will be just a dead weight.

Seenoevil

I have a magplar healer kitted to the teeth, cleared all vet trials and got kicked from a normal depths of malatar. Sometimes people are just idiots

Edziu

Yes they should be kicked right away, it is a dlc vet dungeon and if someone is not pulling his weight it is time.

if he was actually good enough for this content he would use anything else besides mutagen and without telling to him he should use orbs or shards as healer is mainly for this with great healing

if healer is unable to do this as basic...then its much better for very most of content 3rd dd instead of healer, even in many dlc dungs thanks to dung mechanics or no/lawful damage or 1shot

p00tx

They should be given a chance, ask for orbs and combat prayer or at least help with damage, try to communicate, if it is a no go, kick

We all started somewhere, and not one of us started out great, so I'd say try communicating with them. Maybe they just need a little guidance to help point them in the right direction. I definitely gave a lot of of tanks and DDs some migraines before someone took me under their wing and explained how healing works in this particular game. On the flipside of that, there seems to be a disturbingly large population of healers who claim "I healed this way in [insert dead/old/defunct/irrelevant game here] for ten years, and I'm not about to change how I do things because I'm RWAWRRAWESOMESAUCEHEEEELURRR!!!", and no amount of good advice or help is going to change their overwhelming badness. If you encounter one of those, save your breath, kick, and move on.

xpixelatedtkox

They should be given a chance, ask for orbs and combat prayer or at least help with damage, try to communicate, if it is a no go, kick

I usually run with guildies, especially DLC dungeons, normal and veteran.
If I ever did find myself in that situation though, I would communicate first. Always give someone a chance. If they refuse to listen, then definitely kick.

Tasear

Yes they should be kicked right away, it is a dlc vet dungeon and if someone is not pulling his weight it is time.

Okay okay..hothead answer when I clicked at first. 😅

Always imporant to be given a chance. They don't necessarily need orbs or combat prayer, but if people are dying easily when you could of saved them then...👞

AcadianPaladin

They should be given a chance, ask for orbs and combat prayer or at least help with damage, try to communicate, if it is a no go, kick

Can't tell for sure of course but, given a vet dungeon and high CP player and trying to heal as described sounds like a fake healer trying to get a quick queue perhaps?

DocFrost72

Options don't reflect my answer. Only thing a healer *needs* to do is keep allies alive through things they can.

Orbs are nice. Shards, nice. Dps, nice. Healing? Mandatory.

Darkenarlol

Yes they should be kicked right away, it is a dlc vet dungeon and if someone is not pulling his weight it is time.

yeah you can give someone a chance...and i usually do

but in my experience it usually leads to nothing more than

another wasted 10 min before kick

mobicera

They should be given a chance, ask for orbs and combat prayer or at least help with damage, try to communicate, if it is a no go, kick

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Options don't reflect my answer. Only thing a healer *needs* to do is keep allies alive through things they can.

Orbs are nice. Shards, nice. Dps, nice. Healing? Mandatory.

I think the op was talking specifically about vet dlc dungeons and to be honest if the person can't fulfill the role as it is in ESO not other games and are unwilling to change, take advice or adapt to the requirements of the situation then they are being carried and really have no place in vet dlc dungeons.
Healing in dungeons in this game is just as much about supporting the group with buffs, debuffs, orbs, etc. as it is keeping health bars topped off.
So support is a requirement of the role.

ForsakenSin

No! Dont kick them, they have queued for it fair and square and doing their job.

wait... ...you actually need a healer in vet dungeons ?

DarkerDreams

They should be given a chance, ask for orbs and combat prayer or at least help with damage, try to communicate, if it is a no go, kick

You should always at least try communicating first. Despite cp level, maybe they just rolled their first healer, you never know. I also know people who's idea of playing a healer is literally just to heal. They wear no buff sets and don't provide orbs/prayer/ect.. unless someone requests it. It's usually obvious in the first few moments of communicating whether they are going to be receptive or not.

tl;dr Talk first, kick if it fails

idk

No! Dont kick them, they have queued for it fair and square and doing their job.

OP has left out a very important detail, what dungeon they were doing.

I have healed no death runs in some vet DLC HMs with nothing more than regen and BoL and hardly used BoL. Granted, some DLCs I use more and in the rare instance I am with a total put that is really bad I have to use more to compensate for how bad they are which reduces my damage. Considering when I am with a total pug I do large portion of the damage that is significant.

Further, with premade groups I have cleared many of the vet DLC HMs without any healer in the group. This has included both mag and stam dps.

So what this shows is the better the players the less a healer is needed with 4 man content. It also shows healers are necessary when the group is challenged avoiding and mitigating damage.

Edit: also, orbs are not a requirement for a healer. If you are using the GF to form your group you are specifically asking for randomness. If the healer does not have orbs then tough luck. That is essentially what you asked for. Form your own group if this is not what you want.

zvavi

@idk and @DocFrost72 , i mean, you might have missed it in my post. But he was literally only spamming mutagen. Burst heal to save dds? What is it? Dealing damage? Have only 1 skill on bar (and barrier). While it is true his mutagen heals for more than mine, his existence there was... Something that can be ignored.

DocFrost72

Wow, the passive aggressive edit in your op lol.

Let me quote two things specifically;

My question is, should healers like that be kicked?

But your poll options do not line up with my opinion. My opinion is do you keep people alive. In your example, he clearly wasn't keeping people alive, so unless he's willing to listen to reason, I'm out or he is. That said, of the two options where he is a problem neither offered me the choice to express that I'd rather just leave and re-queue (leaving always works, vote to kick can be a dice roll). If some dude's spamming mutagen he either doesn't have orbs, or he has some serious specific roleplay he's trying. In either situation, my goal is to get healing, or gtfo. None of your options work for that.

mobicera wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Options don't reflect my answer. Only thing a healer *needs* to do is keep allies alive through things they can.

Orbs are nice. Shards, nice. Dps, nice. Healing? Mandatory.

I think the op was talking specifically about vet dlc dungeons and to be honest if the person can't fulfill the role as it is in ESO not other games and are unwilling to change, take advice or adapt to the requirements of the situation then they are being carried and really have no place in vet dlc dungeons.
Healing in dungeons in this game is just as much about supporting the group with buffs, debuffs, orbs, etc. as it is keeping health bars topped off.
So support is a requirement of the role.

Bold: That's your opinion.

idk

No! Dont kick them, they have queued for it fair and square and doing their job.

[quote="zvavi;c-6126943", i mean, you might have missed it in my post. But he was literally only spamming mutagen. Burst heal to save dds? What is it? Dealing damage? Have only 1 skill on bar (and barrier). While it is true his mutagen heals for more than mine, his existence there was... Something that can be ignored.[/quote]

No, I did not miss it in your post. As I stated, I have cleared vet DLC dungeons without anyone even using mutagen as we had no healer in the group. As I clearly indicated, there are players who can do that and others that need more heals because they do not avoid, block, shield or otherwise mitigate the damage they take.

Further, mutagen actually has as burst heal when the target is at low health but that is beside the point. If you want a healer to have specific heals or heal in a particular manner form your own group.

Zatox

Yes they should be kicked right away, it is a dlc vet dungeon and if someone is not pulling his weight it is time.

This is MMO, so you should to insult and kick him.

Aelorin

They should be given a chance, ask for orbs and combat prayer or at least help with damage, try to communicate, if it is a no go, kick

This is an MMO, so with a PUG you never know what you will get.

Maybe it was his first time healing in a vet dungeon? (And that is a lot harder than a normal dungeon).

You should explain what you want from him, if that does not work, then kick. But give him a chance to adapt and learn.

On a side note:
I did not heal for a while and logged in with my warden healer. I ported to Moonhunter keep to heal after the other healer got kicked. We did fine untill Archivist Ernarde. I asked how the mechanics did work, and the tank explained. We did wipe. Apperently the adds did not go down fast enough, so the tank asked to increase DPS. I slotted northern storm instead of horn. I worked hard to not get an insta kill from the werewolves. One DPS said that he was not optimum specced, and asked if we wanted to kick him. We did not. I said: We can do this. We wiped one more time; But in the end we survived and got that pesky mage killed. For me that gives me satisfaction, that we worked close together and could defeat him eventually.

Aelorin

They should be given a chance, ask for orbs and combat prayer or at least help with damage, try to communicate, if it is a no go, kick

Zatox wrote: »

This is MMO, so you should to insult and kick him.

Oh please, no insulting and flaming. If you do it, then do it polite.

zvavi

idk wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

, i mean, you might have missed it in my post. But he was literally only spamming mutagen. Burst heal to save dds? What is it? Dealing damage? Have only 1 skill on bar (and barrier). While it is true his mutagen heals for more than mine, his existence there was... Something that can be ignored.

No, I did not miss it in your post. As I stated, I have cleared vet DLC dungeons without anyone even using mutagen as we had no healer in the group. As I clearly indicated, there are players who can do that and others that need more heals because they do not avoid, block, shield or otherwise mitigate the damage they take.

Further, mutagen actually has as burst heal when the target is at low health but that is beside the point. If you want a healer to have specific heals or heal in a particular manner form your own group.

I agree with you, healers are not needed in most dlc dungeons. but thing is, i was giving an example of the worst healer that i have ever encountered in a vet dlc. No damage. Barely heals (i had more than 50% heals as the tank in every fight dds didn't use vigor) thing is, i expect some things from people that queue for dlc dungeons.
From tanks i expect to survive most heavies and taunt priority adds.
Dds i expect to follow mechanics and have at least 20k dummy dps (means can go below 10k in a lot of mechanics fights)
You are telling me that from healer i need to expect nothing? Barely heals, and thats it? Someone who walks in, and uses blood altar once every 20 seconds and thats it is qualified as a vet dlc healer(without any, any other skills)?

Serious Question, i want opinions.

zvavi

@Aelorin since i pug a lot of dlc dungeons, i have many stories like that. i dont remember the last time i kicked anyone from a dungeon (offline for more than 10 minutes doesn't count as kicking ) many times people are super nice, and it ends up being fun runs, even with the wipes and the teachings. Happy i am not the only one with an easy going opinion

Elwendryll

They should be given a chance, ask for orbs and combat prayer or at least help with damage, try to communicate, if it is a no go, kick

I have a guildmate (tank) who tells the healer they can play DD if they want (And often they actually already are).
We cleared vMoS HM and Speedrun without healer.

My point is... How did the DDs die in the first place?
Healers are more for resource returns and buffs than pure healing. And if you want to kick someone it's up to the group, there isn't an universal rule of when it's acceptable or not. For example I tolerate fake roles, unexperienced people, even afk people. I only kick and replace if :
1) I/We can't carry the group.
2) The incriminated player has a toxic attitude.

That's it. If we can't complete the dungeon no matter what and no amount of explanation can help because they're not willing to improve, I might consider a kick.
Most of the times, the people dragging the group down give up and leave by themselves, I'm patient.

Tasear

Yes they should be kicked right away, it is a dlc vet dungeon and if someone is not pulling his weight it is time.

zvavi wrote: »

idk wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

, i mean, you might have missed it in my post. But he was literally only spamming mutagen. Burst heal to save dds? What is it? Dealing damage? Have only 1 skill on bar (and barrier). While it is true his mutagen heals for more than mine, his existence there was... Something that can be ignored.

No, I did not miss it in your post. As I stated, I have cleared vet DLC dungeons without anyone even using mutagen as we had no healer in the group. As I clearly indicated, there are players who can do that and others that need more heals because they do not avoid, block, shield or otherwise mitigate the damage they take.

Further, mutagen actually has as burst heal when the target is at low health but that is beside the point. If you want a healer to have specific heals or heal in a particular manner form your own group.

I agree with you, healers are not needed in most dlc dungeons. but thing is, i was giving an example of the worst healer that i have ever encountered in a vet dlc. No damage. Barely heals (i had more than 50% heals as the tank in every fight dds didn't use vigor) thing is, i expect some things from people that queue for dlc dungeons.
From tanks i expect to survive most heavies and taunt priority adds.
Dds i expect to follow mechanics and have at least 20k dummy dps (means can go below 10k in a lot of mechanics fights)
You are telling me that from healer i need to expect nothing? Barely heals, and thats it? Someone who walks in, and uses blood altar once every 20 seconds and thats it is qualified as a vet dlc healer(without any, any other skills)?

Serious Question, i want opinions.

As a healer...I wish we had more quality standards. Not just for self but others to guage skill line.

Strider__Roshin

I think we should have the option to queue for 3 DPS and a tank. In most cases healers are not necessary in this game, and the dungeon would be completed quicker with a third DPS

IonicKai

They should be given a chance, ask for orbs and combat prayer or at least help with damage, try to communicate, if it is a no go, kick

Daus wrote: »

I think we should have the option to queue for 3 DPS and a tank. In most cases healers are not necessary in this game, and the dungeon would be completed quicker with a third DPS

That's only true if all DDs are pushing 40k plus and have some form of self survivability or an agreed utility setup amongst the group that you will rarely see in pugs. Less than that on a dlc dungeon you will likely have tons of issues getting the complete because you cannot hit hard enough to skip the mechanics. Please stop trying to simplify the situation by saying that 3DDs and a tank is the only way because it ignores the skill ceiling to get to that point. You can go with a premade if that is your desired grouping.

Grianasteri

They should be given a chance, ask for orbs and combat prayer or at least help with damage, try to communicate, if it is a no go, kick

zvavi wrote: »

Just like dds are sometimes... Pugs, today my dlc was quite pleasant dd wise, the problem was a healer, that all he did the whole dungeon, is spam mutagen, with occasional barrier ultimate.many times i saw dds that he could save dying in front of my eyes. Many times he died to mechanics. My question is, should healers like that be kicked? Or not?(side note, no, no orbs)
Edit: it was a 1100+ cp healer.
Edit n2: @idk well then, you are correct, BoL totally could have been helpful there. Problem is, as i said, mutagen spam (not mutagen heal while dealing damage, mutagen heal is refresh it every 15~ seconds) and barrier on cd was the only thing he ever did. dds that he could save with a burst heal falling like flies beside him. His existence there would not change the outcome. He was dead weight. Looking back i shouldn't have wasted time ressing him. It was vMoS
Edit n3: @DocFrost72 if you would have read my post, like @Tasear did, you would have noticed, that he was not keeping dds alive.

Clearly, the person is not fulfilling their role as a healer or support. They were literally not using any healing or support skills, save the two you mention and that does not qualify one as a healer or support.

That kind of dead weight should indeed be kicked really quite quickly. BUT, ALWAYS give someone the chance. I communicate the issue and make suggestions. If no change, kick. I do the same with DPS and Tanks.

I literally hate kicking, I almost never do it and am more than happy to carry folk through content if they need it. But in DLC Vet dungeons, there is far less room for error or to carry someone not pulling their weight. Also, there is a difference between someone simply not doing their job, and someone trying but not being very good. The later I can understand and work with, the former, not so much.