Magblade PvP Build - Is there a middle-ground between Tank mnb and Proc mnb?

Kipad

Coming back to the game after a year and new to the forums, so sorry if this is the inappropriate place to ask about a tentative build. I play mostly non-CP Cyrodil and occasionally BGs and am trying to strike a middle ground between a pure proc gank mnb (Caluurion/Spell Strat + Spinner) and some tank builds I've seen floating around (Necro/Alfiq/BTB + ArmorMaster/FortBrass/Pariah/Swift). A sturdy mnb build that has some burst if you will.

* Spinner 5 pc on frontbar (maybe Caluurion instead?)
* Armor Master 5 pc on backbar
* Willpower 3 pc
* Domihaus 1 pc

Maybe go with a 2 pc willpower and go for a full monster set? Or even a Domihaus/Illambris or something? Or am I trying too hard going off-meta? In looking for a middle ground I realize I may have come up with something worse than either tank or proc mnb builds in their respective niches.. Please advise me if that is the case or if there's something you think better fits what I'm looking for. Thanks!

Insco851

NoCP has to rely on up front defenses, armor master will work well. I’d go with spinners front bar over calu. Dark cloak if you are comfortable with a no cloak style is pretty tanky as well.

I’d go for a full monster set.

Udrath

In NO-CP as a magblade If you build to tanky you might find yourself healing a lot which isn't bad, but probably not what you want. The new merciless focus is useful so don't use the proc unless you know you can get a kill with it. Just gotta be real slippery when outnumbered and engage every fight one person at a time, and keep your distance. Spinner's was game changing for me in NO-CP.

This is what I run for solo battlegrounds if I am not testing a build and it is pretty strong. It is a variation of what most quicker killers are using except maybe with Skoria instead. If you do use Skoria just drop RAT and Mutagen for Degeneration and Debilitate, then use tri-stat potions or something. In campaign I just try to gank with caluuarion lol...
.
---ALL MAX MAGICKA ENCHANTS---
1 Heavy Impen infernal guardian
1 Heavy Or Medium Impen illambris or domihaus or shadowrend.
5x Light Impen Torug pact OR Wizard's Riposte. You can also use spell strategist/war maiden/julianos.
3x Arcane Spinner jewerly with spell damage enchants.
1x Infused inferno spinner staff w/ whatever enchant you prefer. (Flame, shock, disease. Magicka or health absorb.)
1x Infused Resto staff with spell damage increase enchant. Any staff will do, I use lich for my recovery.

High elf, atronach mundas, Orzorga's Red Frothgar, Alliance Spell Draught
Puts me at like 22k hp /30k magicka /10k stamina. 2k+ mag recovery, 3k+ spell damage, good spell penetration BUFFED in NO-CP.

BARS:
Destro staff: Merc focus, impale, swallow soul, flame reach, shadowy disguise. Ulti: Soul Harvest. (Or Soul Assault for roll dodgers at 35%hp into cancel impale once below 25%)
Resto staff: Race Against time, mutagen, siphoning attacks, healing ward, piercing mark. Ulti: Light's Champion


Light attack more often instead of weaving a rotation to build merciless focus faster. Something like... LA>LA>LA>Swallow Soul LA>Stealth>Swallow Soul>LA>set up a burst. You can even just spam LA if your target is in full defensive mode. Key to is to keep merciless focus up and always be ready to burst someone. Resto staff LA attacks are the fastest way to build it up from pure light attacking. Your light attacks and swallow souls will be hitting very hard. Use flame reach defensively unless your going for a burst.

ccmedaddy

Your build is hardly off-meta--it's basically a variation of what every other mag toons are running in no-CP nowadays. In other words, it's perfectly viable.

I'd go with 2pc willpower and a full monster set though. Skoria is pretty troll this patch because of the new visual indicator that looks just like meteor's.

Kipad

Thank you for the responses. I will go for a monster set and 2 pc willpower then. In non-CP, should I go sharpened vs infused/nirnhoned on my frontbar inferno staff? I feel like sharpened may be overkill with the spell pen from spinner's.

kaithuzar

If you’re going with armor master only on back bar, (I personally don’t think I would do this but it’s an option), I would consider what I’ve done (by using alessian back bar’d) & sacrificing 2 piece monster for 1 piece & run 3 piece willpower (Destro staff + neck)

Granted, balorgh or zaan are likely stronger, they have their limits.

Tirps

kaithuzar wrote: »

If you’re going with armor master only on back bar, (I personally don’t think I would do this but it’s an option), I would consider what I’ve done (by using alessian back bar’d) & sacrificing 2 piece monster for 1 piece & run 3 piece willpower (Destro staff + neck)

Granted, balorgh or zaan are likely stronger, they have their limits.

Just for curiosity, why alessia instead of beekeeper? it would require 30k both spell and physical resistance to get to same level.

Iskiab

Tirps wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

If you’re going with armor master only on back bar, (I personally don’t think I would do this but it’s an option), I would consider what I’ve done (by using alessian back bar’d) & sacrificing 2 piece monster for 1 piece & run 3 piece willpower (Destro staff + neck)

Granted, balorgh or zaan are likely stronger, they have their limits.

Just for curiosity, why alessia instead of beekeeper? it would require 30k both spell and physical resistance to get to same level.

30k is normal is no-CP, might be a little on the high end for light armour builds who’re 25k+.

mursie

Iskiab wrote: »

Tirps wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

If you’re going with armor master only on back bar, (I personally don’t think I would do this but it’s an option), I would consider what I’ve done (by using alessian back bar’d) & sacrificing 2 piece monster for 1 piece & run 3 piece willpower (Destro staff + neck)

Granted, balorgh or zaan are likely stronger, they have their limits.

Just for curiosity, why alessia instead of beekeeper? it would require 30k both spell and physical resistance to get to same level.

30k is normal is no-CP, might be a little on the high end for light armour builds who’re 25k+.

30K is normal in non-cp? wow

AMeanOne

Lol what

Iskiab

mursie wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Tirps wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

If you’re going with armor master only on back bar, (I personally don’t think I would do this but it’s an option), I would consider what I’ve done (by using alessian back bar’d) & sacrificing 2 piece monster for 1 piece & run 3 piece willpower (Destro staff + neck)

Granted, balorgh or zaan are likely stronger, they have their limits.

Just for curiosity, why alessia instead of beekeeper? it would require 30k both spell and physical resistance to get to same level.

30k is normal is no-CP, might be a little on the high end for light armour builds who’re 25k+.

30K is normal in non-cp? wow

Isn’t your main a heavy stamwarden? If you’re running protective at all you should be at 30k, especially if you use bloodspawn.

Sorcs might be an exception because they can stack shields, but even they’re usually 25k with armour master and Chudan. The less self healing and escape the class has the more mitigation is required. With shields I’d put sorcs high in self healing and escape.

Edit - nm I thought you were thogard.

Edit 2 - here’s the setup I was considering for Els. Plan to fight specs with these mitigation levels in no-CP.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=131568

Flame_of_Hades

25k+ isn't normal, its on the high end lol

Iskiab

Are you guys sure? Are you talking BGs or Cyrodiil?

In beginner BGs you can spec however you want and go 20+ and no deaths, as you get more experienced opponents players get better at combining abilities for burst.

I guess it also depends on the guild. Some are squishy you can mow through, some are tanky. I guess it depends on the player and pvp group.

Magblades are also known for attempting glass canon specs more then other classes, pure burst and die in one or two GCDs, but for most yea 25k+ sounds about right.

25k isn’t difficult. If someone’s wearing protective I can guarantee you they’re at 25k.

kaithuzar

Tirps wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

If you’re going with armor master only on back bar, (I personally don’t think I would do this but it’s an option), I would consider what I’ve done (by using alessian back bar’d) & sacrificing 2 piece monster for 1 piece & run 3 piece willpower (Destro staff + neck)

Granted, balorgh or zaan are likely stronger, they have their limits.

Just for curiosity, why alessia instead of beekeeper? it would require 30k both spell and physical resistance to get to same level.

Alessian because:
1) scales with willows path
2) scales with 2 heavy pieces
3) using clockwork citrus fillet, so all of the above puts me at a decent health recovery rate for combating bleed builds.

But, I have been considering whether or not back bar only is worth it & ive been looking at other set options like buffer of the swift; which I probably wouldn’t be able to back bar.

Insco851

kaithuzar wrote: »

Tirps wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

If you’re going with armor master only on back bar, (I personally don’t think I would do this but it’s an option), I would consider what I’ve done (by using alessian back bar’d) & sacrificing 2 piece monster for 1 piece & run 3 piece willpower (Destro staff + neck)

Granted, balorgh or zaan are likely stronger, they have their limits.

Just for curiosity, why alessia instead of beekeeper? it would require 30k both spell and physical resistance to get to same level.

Alessian because:
1) scales with willows path
2) scales with 2 heavy pieces
3) using clockwork citrus fillet, so all of the above puts me at a decent health recovery rate for combating bleed builds.

But, I have been considering whether or not back bar only is worth it & ive been looking at other set options like buffer of the swift; which I probably wouldn’t be able to back bar.

Your static regen is what 1500?

kaithuzar

@Insco851 ,
It’s like 19 something, almost 20k
Willows + Breton + citrus fillet + 1 piece recovery monster helm & debilitate for minor magicka steal but if you have sustain issues you can swap for siphoning attacks.

Don’t forget they kinda fixed willows so the more you have the more that % is worth.
But I have considered using amberplasm again I’m just not certain on how I would build that yet.

Insco851

kaithuzar wrote: »

@Insco851 ,
It’s like 19 something, almost 20k
Willows + Breton + citrus fillet + 1 piece recovery monster helm & debilitate for minor magicka steal but if you have sustain issues you can swap for siphoning attacks.

@kaithuzar sorry I meant to ask about your health gen

kaithuzar

@Insco851
Health regen is like 18 in cp, like 16-17 in no cp

fred4

Just a note on Armor Master. I suppose most people run this on the back bar, but there is an alternative build pattern:

Armor Master front bar
Weapon set back bar, such as vMA resto

The idea is to put Inner Light on the front bar to boost both your damage and your shield, which then has to be on the front bar, while the vMA resto increases your sustain, allowing for additional damage glyph(s) or mundus. The vMA resto, thus, indirectly buffs your damage.

A different thing I see people do is use Spell Strategist on the back bar. This is akin to using a Master Bow on a stamina character. For the sake of the argument, if you had an Infused Spell Strategist Ice staff back bar, this would allow you to get about 1K spell damage and put Elemental Drain on a target in 1 GCD. If you prefer a resto, there's Mark.

I don't play such builds myself, at least not on magblade. Just some ideas.

Insco851

fred4 wrote: »

Just a note on Armor Master. I suppose most people run this on the back bar, but there is an alternative build pattern:

Armor Master front bar
Weapon set back bar, such as vMA resto

The idea is to put Inner Light on the front bar to boost both your damage and your shield, which then has to be on the front bar, while the vMA resto increases your sustain, allowing for additional damage glyph(s) or mundus. The vMA resto, thus, indirectly buffs your damage.

A different thing I see people do is use Spell Strategist on the back bar. This is akin to using a Master Bow on a stamina character. For the sake of the argument, if you had an Infused Spell Strategist Ice staff back bar, this would allow you to get about 1K spell damage and put Elemental Drain on a target in 1 GCD. If you prefer a resto, there's Mark.

I don't play such builds myself, at least not on magblade. Just some ideas.

Spell strat backbar is really effective with an infused resto. Visual indicator even helps keep your berserk glyph up. Going destro is a bit harder to proc since it’s not instant and has a travel time however.

kaithuzar

So just wanted to share I made what I’m calling the “broke blade build”.
A buddy of mine is broke in game & came back after not playing for a year or so. He doesn’t have psijic so no RAT & no temporal guard. We through together a build & he seems to like it: (2h sword, resto)
5 heavy 2 light, high elf
5x seducer
5x spinners (sharpened 2h sword front bar)
2x troll king
1x back bar defending transmutation (or any 2 piece recovery)

Witch mothers brew & atro mundus, all jewelry w/spell dmg enchants

Lotus fan, merciless, forward momentum, concealed, inner light, soul harvest

Shadowy disguise, debilitate, fear, entropy (the heal one), siphoning attacks, resto ult


Only weapons are gold, everything else purple.
He changed stats the cheaper way, instead of using prismatic enchants, chose to instead swap attribute points around. You may get less stats than prismatic but if you’re broke you can balance stats out.

MassiveFumes

kaithuzar wrote: »

So just wanted to share I made what I’m calling the “broke blade build”.
A buddy of mine is broke in game & came back after not playing for a year or so. He doesn’t have psijic so no RAT & no temporal guard. We through together a build & he seems to like it: (2h sword, resto)
5 heavy 2 light, high elf
5x seducer
5x spinners (sharpened 2h sword front bar)
2x troll king
1x back bar defending transmutation (or any 2 piece recovery)

Witch mothers brew & atro mundus, all jewelry w/spell dmg enchants

Lotus fan, merciless, forward momentum, concealed, inner light, soul harvest

Shadowy disguise, debilitate, fear, entropy (the heal one), siphoning attacks, resto ult


Only weapons are gold, everything else purple.
He changed stats the cheaper way, instead of using prismatic enchants, chose to instead swap attribute points around. You may get less stats than prismatic but if you’re broke you can balance stats out.

missing 8% magicka from Siphonings magicka flood on front bar.

fred4

I consider 2H a drawback this patch, even though Momentum costing stamina has worked well for me, in the past, and it reliably activates Troll King, which is a big plus. It's just the light attacks from destro are better. Long term goal would be Psijic for me.

Bar layout is a difficult thing. I've long been unable to fit Inner Light into my melee build. You don't have a Siphoning skill on the front bar, right now, so Inner Light is really only giving you the crit and the stealth detection. Either of those things are probably better covered by a potion, or at least that would be my preference.

Having Concealed and Shadowy in the build, but not on the same bar is a big no for me. Really, once you go Psijic, you can have RAT, Concealed and Shadowy on one bar, and this gives you snare removal, Major Expedition and the 25% Concealed speed bonus with 2 casts. For me nothing else would do, especially when you're not using the shade.

I run this front bar:

Concealed
Shadowy
RAT / Fwd Momentum
Lotus Fan
Siphoning Attacks
Soul Harvest

I find it very hard to get away from it. Siphoning Attacks gets the 8% extra magicka. It, and RAT / Momentum, is also something you pre-cast inbetween cloak and those skills will not uncloak you. I just find that Merciless does not fit on my front bar and this is among the reasons for running Caluurion.

My back bar:

Swallow Soul
Fear
Deep Thoughts
Healing Ward
Dampen
Life Giver

Of course, without Caluurion, I wouldn't run that back bar, so maybe something like this instead:

Debilitate
Entropy
Merciless
Fear
Mutagen or Healing Ward or Dampen
Resto Ult

I personally couldn't live without the shields. I've run Troll King in the past, but with shields. As I am writing this, I am beginning to realise you go Debilitate into Cloak, in your build, while healing from Troll King, but I don't know. It's just a different playstyle, I guess.

I would not give up Deep Thoughts. It's what makes it viable to not run Shacklebreaker or Amber Plasm. To be honest, in CP it's much better than either of those (in no CP you ideally need a bigger pool than merely all prismatic glyphs, which puts Shackle back on the table IMO). You basically cloak, reposition, and you get your small stamina pool topped off in 2 to 3 seconds. Otherwise overextending with low stamina is one of my leading causes of death.

fred4

Oooh, I just noticed it's heavy armor. Well, that explains how you get away without a shield and how you recover some stamina.

Maybe I should have kept stumm. Good to see some alternatives. I trust it works. Take my comments for what they are: coming from a light armor user. I don't have a good feel for how heavy armor plays.

kaithuzar

fred4 wrote: »

Oooh, I just noticed it's heavy armor. Well, that explains how you get away without a shield and how you recover some stamina.

Maybe I should have kept stumm. Good to see some alternatives. I trust it works. Take my comments for what they are: coming from a light armor user. I don't have a good feel for how heavy armor plays.

Yea, heavy + high elf, so his stamina sustain is ok.
I originally had him using swallow soul front bar instead of concealed, but he stated that he liked concealed better for the slightly extra tooltip, stun,& move speed (since he doesn’t have major expedition at the moment).

As for the inner light argument, I use detect pots or tri-pots, neither of which give me spell crit & Magicka Flood is maybe slightly more max mag.

Ultimately dude has plans on getting psijic, undaunted, golding gear, etc... which will change a few things up. I just wanted to post for any broke newbies or returning players that wanted to “jump right in”.

fred4

Swallow Soul on the front bar would make a lot more sense, gaining magicka by slotting a Siphoning skill and a HOT to trigger Troll King once you replace 2H with destro and Momentum with RAT in the future. Right now Concealed damage is gimped by no longer having a Siphoning skill on the bar (less magicka) and it's speed by not having Cloak on the same bar. Basically by putting in Concealed in place of Swallow Soul you / he has broken your carefully constructed build. Even the Concealed stun only comes into it's own when you have Cloak on the same bar.

jaws343

I decided to main my magblade this patch until I hit Grand Overlord on it. Been having success with Shackle, Bright Throat, 1xDomi, 1xIllambris, all tri-stat. Been running meteor, swallow soul, impale, merciless, reach and cloak front bar to some success. Switched healing ward for combat prayer back bar for this patch. It is a lot more reliable than ward in my opinion.

Kipad

OP here! I wanted to share the build I've come up with and been running for the last few days in no-CP pvp (I haven't golded my armor/jewelry yet #dreams)

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=152380

Pretty happy with performance so far. Some notes:
- You can see my stats look pretty great except for stamina. I used to run shacklebreaker and tri-stat glyphs which in combination with Dark Elf passive gave me a lot of stamina. But without well-fitted (impen basically required in this meta) and not having the CP and medium armor roll-dodge cost reduction, I decided to basically ignore stamina.
- I decided to go 5 light 2 heavy instead of the classic 5/1/1 to extend the duration of shadow barrier from 7.5 seconds to 9 seconds. A small difference but with RAT at 12 seconds, Armor master at 10 seconds, and all my shadow skills on my back bar, it's just a quality of life improvement. After shadow barrier buffs run out, I can re-activate shadow image to reset shadow barrier and also put my armor master and RAT back on.
- I almost never use my back-bar ult. That's basically just there for the 8% extra mana and niche situations where I need the aoe stun.
- I really want to use elemental weapons as my spammable but haven't been able to justify it. I kept feeling like I needed the swallow HoT for more sustain, especially since I haven't been using siphoning attacks. I've also been going back and forth on crippling vs. lotus for another DoT to proc Skoria. I don't need the siphoning bonus from crippling if I use swallow, so it becomes a question of a harder hitting gap-closer (lotus) vs. ranged immobilize/slow (cripple).
- I ended up going with an infused inferno staff for more burst but am considering going sharpened instead. I underestimated how tanky folks are building and 8k spell pen might not be enough.
- I'm also conflicted with the infused/weapon damage back bar vs. something like defending/hardening but am leaning towards the former since I have almost 25k resists and two shields.

Any suggestions?

Maulkin

If you're gonna go 5 heavy, Breton is best choice imho. Since you get pretty much the Seducer 5-piece bonus as racial passive. Meaning you can go for another offensive set to pair with Spinners. I find hat better than the Almer Spell Damage bonus. I was testing this set up in the BGs over the weekend:
- 5 Rattle body
- 5 Spinner front
- Maelstrom Resto back
- Zaan

It performed quite well. Some observations more below..

Skills

I found using Refreshing Path + Phantasmal Escape better than using RAT, even if it costs 2 skills to get snare immunity and speed buff. At least for no-CP BGs that is. The Minor Force is not great in no-CP with heavy armor, you don't crit that much. Especially if you have no ground AoEs. The 4" immunity on PE is great and the heals and speed of Path are great both for you and for the whole team. The Major Evasion is of great help against Bash Goliaths, Colossuses, DBoS users and most of Warden and Templar toolkits to be honest.

I tried Funnel Health and I didn't like it. The heals are minimal and I didn't feel I needed them. Between Siphoning Attacks, Rapid Regen, Refreshing Path and even the new Grim Focus heal, I feel I had enough. So I preferred Elemental Weapon by far. Cheaper, more damage , more utility. It procs Minor Maim, Vulnerability and Burning all the time.

I didn't run Shadow Image cause no space and didn't really fit the playstyle too much. Though if you're running solo in Cyro it's a must have. I still have Shadowy Disguise because I still switch to light occasionally and I don't have that much HP to benefit from the heal. I did feel I was missing a ground AoE (Blockade) in some fights though, to increase the group pressure.

Sustain
Between Debilitate's magickasteal, Siphoning Attacks and Maelstrom Resto procs, the sustain was fantastic while being on the offensive. If you're going to play too defensive and spam cloak and healing ward, you'll run dry pretty quick though. In no CP you can also choose to run Incap if you want help with the sustain, due to for the Reave passive. But you'll lose the Major Defile so for me it's not advisable if you want to be a killing force.

Damage
Damage is not the best, because you still lack some crit and penetration compared to Light Armor. But if you hold off your Bow proc and Ult till you get a Zaan proc, you can really melt a single target by going Harvest->Fear->Bow. You can switch to Skoria, Slimecraw or BloodSpawn too for more overall damage or more sustain, but with less single-target kill potential that you get with Zaan.

Survivability
I felt fairly tanky for a destro/resto build. The mitigation from Grim Focus is quite noticeable along with heavy armor, the free Major Resolve/Ward and the Major Evasion I was running. I could stay in messy fights and extricate fairly successfully when I wanted to. The heals were pretty decent too and not just the self heals. I could also put out several 100ks of team healing, usually 250k-400k.

Iskiab

@Kipad
I mainly heal but this is what I’d recommend:
- try 3 piece willpower on jewellery, vDSA staff maybe? 5 piece spinners on your body. Maelstrom resto staff on the back. Clench hits harder then the tooltip says because of destro pen passives
- try a sharpened staff instead of infused
- if you’re happy with your sustain then you’re good, I usually like a bit more sustain
- the other morph for soul tether, soul Siphon, is better imo
- I’d go to stage 3 vamp, less damage when you’re low health is good

kaithuzar

Personally I stay away from vamp, there are more/better stam players than mag & dawnbreaker is usually flying from at least 2-3 people.
I thought they were going to work on a vampire patch since they did one specifically for werewolves?
Maybe if they change some of the abilities it could be worth but not really until then.