Senche vs Spriggans

thedude33

As a Stamblade, 2H/Bow. CP campaign.

Finally got my Bone Pirate, which I really like. I have been combining it with Spriggans. Lately I've been considering dropping Spriggan and picking up a set of Senche. I don't know which is more offensive, the penetration or the WD and crit bonus from a dodge roll. I'm sure someone out there has ran extensive tests and has some stats to share?!

Thanks for any feedback

Senche's Bite
Set bonus
(2 items) Adds 129 Stamina Recovery
(3 items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical
(4 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(5 items) When you use Roll Dodge, your Weapon Damage is increased by 430 and Weapon Critical rating is increased by 657 for 5 seconds.

Spriggan's Thorns
Set bonus
(2 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(5 items) Adds 3450 Physical Penetration

Firstmep

In todays resist stacking meta id stick with spriggans, especially if you have a masters bow.
Senche has some issues, like if you roll can el your vigor with it, the heal wont benefit from the exta wpd. Spriggans on the other hand you have all the time, no proc conditions.

thedude33

Firstmep wrote: »

In todays resist stacking meta id stick with spriggans, especially if you have a masters bow.
Senche has some issues, like if you roll can el your vigor with it, the heal wont benefit from the exta wpd. Spriggans on the other hand you have all the time, no proc conditions.

No Masters bow

Firstmep

Id still stick to spriggans and work towards that masters bow.
Thing with senche, you dont necessarily want to dodgeroll every time before your burst, especially aganist defensive enemies.

thedude33

Firstmep wrote: »

Id still stick to spriggans and work towards that masters bow.
Thing with senche, you dont necessarily want to dodgeroll every time before your burst, especially aganist defensive enemies.

Is masters bow that good? I don't really do much pve. Never a Trial ( if that's where it drops)

darkblue5

thedude33 wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Id still stick to spriggans and work towards that masters bow.
Thing with senche, you dont necessarily want to dodgeroll every time before your burst, especially aganist defensive enemies.

Is masters bow that good? I don't really do much pve. Never a Trial ( if that's where it drops)

It's pretty nummy. (Drops from v Dragonstar Arena)

susmitds

thedude33 wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Id still stick to spriggans and work towards that masters bow.
Thing with senche, you dont necessarily want to dodgeroll every time before your burst, especially aganist defensive enemies.

Is masters bow that good? I don't really do much pve. Never a Trial ( if that's where it drops)

Master DW is stronger imo.

Firstmep

Depends, bow backbar is still really good and can add ranged pressure or help aganist kiting enemies.
I prefer bow backbar for bgs for example where you dont necessarily want to be in melee range all the time.
Also infused wpd glyph on bow adds a fair bit of dmg.
Master dw is great too for sure, just not for every situation.

Methariorn

In elder scroll tank online I'll take spriggan over senche evrey day.

JAwtunes

I would go for Spriggan too. The buff for Senche used to start at the start of the roll. If that is still the case (I suspect it is) then your burst window is really quite small, and having to use a defensive mechanic right before starting an offensive combo feels weird imo. That's a personal thing though, so you'll have to see how it feels for you.

Also, on a stamblade (with lots of Mag abilities) I would definitely use Shacklebreaker over Bone Pirate. For that matter, you can't go far wrong with Shacklebreaker and either Spriggan or Spinners on just about any build in PVP.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

Spriggans.

macsmooth

I’ve thought about testing senche for a PvP build but not got round to it on a wood elf it makes perfect sense with the roll dodging see everything race but for any other race spriggan I guess would be better

RighteousBacon

I currently run senche instead of spriggans but have been debating the switch.
Spriggans is undoubtably better but only because you can front bar it and back bar master’s bow. I am currently working on getting master’s bow, without it I believe senche is stronger.

Brrrofski

Spriggans is probably better.

Firstly, it's up all the time.

Secondly, we're in a resistance meta so spriggans is very effective.

Thirdly, it opens up using master bow back bar. Until then, a bow which gives magica recovery as a two piece is really nice for cloak, shade etc.

Maulkin

Damage-wise Spriggan + Master's is the best combo for single target damage in medium builds. However Senche also buffs your heals (since it buffs base weapon dmg) after a dodge roll considerably.

Do you feel you're lacking kill potential or do you feel you're lacking heals more? That's the question you have to ask yourself.

susmitds

Maulkin wrote: »

Damage-wise Spriggan + Master's is the best combo for single target damage in medium builds. However Senche also buffs your heals (since it buffs base weapon dmg) after a dodge roll considerably.

Do you feel you're lacking kill potential or do you feel you're lacking heals more? That's the question you have to ask yourself.

Senche in general is a bad set due to the short uptime.

Maulkin

susmitds wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Damage-wise Spriggan + Master's is the best combo for single target damage in medium builds. However Senche also buffs your heals (since it buffs base weapon dmg) after a dodge roll considerably.

Do you feel you're lacking kill potential or do you feel you're lacking heals more? That's the question you have to ask yourself.

Senche in general is a bad set due to the short uptime.

We’ll have to agree to disagree I’m afraid.

I keep pretty high uptime of it on my bosmer stamblade, where I have to dodge to proc the racial penetration passive anyway. It depends on you class/build.

Wing

pen is better in pvp by far as its not directly cut in half by battle spirit, your getting the full effect of the pen (where as weapon damage is cut and thus not very efficient to build)

however investing in nothing but pen makes your own heals crap, so there is that.

I prefer spriggans as I don't like situational mechanics and prefer constant uptime. pvp is fluid and hectic enough without worrying about micro'ing all my own stuff too.

Kartalin

How about both, on a bosmer?

Maulkin

Kartalin wrote: »

How about both, on a bosmer?

I've played like this before. Senche body, Spriggan front, Master's Bow back, Velidreth. Sustain's not the best but the damage is sweet.

Merlight

Wing wrote: »

pen is better in pvp by far as its not directly cut in half by battle spirit, your getting the full effect of the pen (where as weapon damage is cut and thus not very efficient to build)

The extra damage you get from "Penetration" bonus is halved just like the extra damage you get from "Weapon Damage" bonus. Moot point.

CatchMeTrolling

Merlight wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

pen is better in pvp by far as its not directly cut in half by battle spirit, your getting the full effect of the pen (where as weapon damage is cut and thus not very efficient to build)

The extra damage you get from "Penetration" bonus is halved just like the extra damage you get from "Weapon Damage" bonus. Moot point.

You don’t half penetration, you half damage in general. Still you’re going to do more damage with let’s say 4K damage and 15k plus pen than you’re going to do with 4K damage and 5k pen.

Seems like you’re straw manning their point.

Merlight

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Merlight wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

pen is better in pvp by far as its not directly cut in half by battle spirit, your getting the full effect of the pen (where as weapon damage is cut and thus not very efficient to build)

The extra damage you get from "Penetration" bonus is halved just like the extra damage you get from "Weapon Damage" bonus. Moot point.

You don’t half penetration, you half damage in general.

That's what I said.

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Still you’re going to do more damage with let’s say 4K damage and 15k plus pen than you’re going to do with 4K damage and 5k pen.

Kinda obvious, that more penetration with all else remaining the same results in more damage. Doesn't really help explaining why one should go for Penetration rather than Weapon Damage.

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Seems like you’re straw manning their point.

No. I just corrected Wing's argument that "pen is not directly cut in half by battle spirit ... whereas weapon damage is cut" -- that is not true, neither of those stats are cut by battle spirit. I was not refuting their opinion (that "pen is better in pvp"; although I don't completely agree) only their incorrect explanation of why that is the case.

evoniee

senche clunky in 1v1 static fight

Noobslayer3255

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Merlight wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

pen is better in pvp by far as its not directly cut in half by battle spirit, your getting the full effect of the pen (where as weapon damage is cut and thus not very efficient to build)

The extra damage you get from "Penetration" bonus is halved just like the extra damage you get from "Weapon Damage" bonus. Moot point.

You don’t half penetration, you half damage in general. Still you’re going to do more damage with let’s say 4K damage and 15k plus pen than you’re going to do with 4K damage and 5k pen.

Seems like you’re straw manning their point.

He isn't straw manning, he is just right. It doesn't matter whether the source of your increase in damage is from weapon damage, stamina, penetration, or a flat bonus like minor berserk. The damage you would have done in a non pvp environment will be halved no matter what.

Wing

Merlight wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

pen is better in pvp by far as its not directly cut in half by battle spirit, your getting the full effect of the pen (where as weapon damage is cut and thus not very efficient to build)

The extra damage you get from "Penetration" bonus is halved just like the extra damage you get from "Weapon Damage" bonus. Moot point.

true but not to the diminishing returns of stacking more damage vs pen.

all damage has a base damage, if you stack no damage your still going to do damage. (im not advocating for no damage just listing the obvious)

for pvp you can either increase that number on paper by stacking even more weapon damage, it will then get cut by battle spirit, and then further cut by all that armor your not bypassing.

or you can stack pen. your damage on paper is lower, but there is less to cut in half so you do a little bit less but also don't lose as much, and you further bypass a lot of armor that would further cut your damage

its just more efficient.

however the best is obviously a combination of both finding the most efficient sources. and you can always over pen, or tanks can have so much armor that a lot of your pen is negated again because there rocking 40k-50k (sounds outrageous but really not hard in practice) resistances and 10k-20k of your pen is effectively pointless as your not getting below armor cap.

so yeah.

pvp is tricky.

Merlight

Wing wrote: »

Merlight wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

pen is better in pvp by far as its not directly cut in half by battle spirit, your getting the full effect of the pen (where as weapon damage is cut and thus not very efficient to build)

The extra damage you get from "Penetration" bonus is halved just like the extra damage you get from "Weapon Damage" bonus. Moot point.

true but not to the diminishing returns of stacking more damage vs pen.

Right.

Wing wrote: »

for pvp you can either increase that number on paper by stacking even more weapon damage, it will then get cut by battle spirit, and then further cut by all that armor your not bypassing.

This is inaccurate, but from the previous comment I guess I'm starting to grasp what you're trying to say. Correction first:
Your Max Stamina, Weapon Damage and Physical Penetration are not affected by Battle Spirit.
Your opponents' Physical Resistance and other forms of mitigation are not affected by Battle Spirit.
All those numbers enter damage calculation unchanged. The number that comes out, damage after mitigation, is halved by Battle Spirit.


Yes, adding (Effective) Weapon Damage in fixed number increments gives diminishing returns.

The first X effective weapon damage bonus you add will be 100*X/BaseEffectiveWeaponDamage percent increase in damage done; the second X bonus you add will be 100*X/(BaseEffectiveWeaponDamage+X) percent increase, which is obviously a smaller number of percent. That's the diminishing returns effect.

However, the amount of resistance you're not bypassing has no bearing on how many % extra damage the added X bonus yields, because both the bonus and the base get mitigated. A 5% increase in effective weapon damage yields 5% increase in damage done; if your opponent mitigates 0%, you get 50 extra damage for every 1000; if your opponent mitigates 30%, you get 0.7*50=35 extra damage for every 0.7*1000=700; it's still 5% extra damage done regardless of the amount of mitigation.


On the other hand, adding 660 penetration lets Y% of your damage-before-mitigation go through*. Adding another 660 penetration lets another Y% of your damage go through*. No diminishing returns*.

* as long as their resistance is between 0 and cap, of course (your next comment forced me add this note )

Wing wrote: »

however the best is obviously a combination of both finding the most efficient sources. and you can always over pen, or tanks can have so much armor that a lot of your pen is negated again because there rocking 40k-50k (sounds outrageous but really not hard in practice) resistances and 10k-20k of your pen is effectively pointless as your not getting below armor cap.

so yeah.

pvp is tricky.

Agreed

Wing

okay I get what your saying. ^_^