Lightning or inferno VMA staff?

Amorpho

It seems that VMA inferno staff is the meta for PvE (on every class). And yet, I wonder if the Lightning VMA staff might perform better on a Magicka Sorc? Apart from the minor vulnerability applied by concussed, sorcerers get a 5% extra damage on lightning damage. What am I not seeing?

MakeMeUhSamich

Either can help you hit 50k+ DPS. Flame is BIS, though. Depending on your goals, you should use what you prefer.

Amorpho

MakeMeUhSamich wrote: »

Either can help you hit 50k+ DPS. Flame is BIS, though. Depending on your goals, you should use what you prefer.

Could you please explain why inferno is BIS? (remember, I'm looking at this from the perspective of a magsorc)

supaskrub

Amorpho wrote: »

MakeMeUhSamich wrote: »

Either can help you hit 50k+ DPS. Flame is BIS, though. Depending on your goals, you should use what you prefer.

Could you please explain why inferno is BIS? (remember, I'm looking at this from the perspective of a magsorc)

Passives from the destro skill line, Inferno has an 8% amp on single target damage, shock has 8% on aoe damage.

Look for info in the destro skill line passives of Ancient Knowledge and Tri-focus

Maythor

I'd presume that in an optimal group support roles would be supplying the minor vulnerability, and due to the destro passives that give single target increase of 8% (think that's right), and is there also a possibility of burning (I'm sort of working this out as I type) .. flame usually seems to edge out lightning on boss fights.

However, as said above both can work and situationally, so I'd guess either might have advantages in certain fights.

Hopefully someone can confirm all that, or tell you the real reasons

FrancisCrawford

When I check my parses, single-target damage usually exceeds 50% of the total. This suggests that the passive benefit for an inferno staff is more valuable than that for a lightning staff.

While I'm not sure, I believe the damage for the fire version of Blockade exceeds that for the lightning version. Also, a fire light attack will do more damage than a lightning one.

I presume lightning is superior for the destro ultimate, but I use the Atronach more frequently these days anyway.

Lightning heavy attacks are of course far superior to fire ones, but with heavy attacks nerfed that doesn't seem to be an important consideration.

I rarely wear Ilambris, but for those who do, the most reliable way to proc it is probably to run Liquid Lightning and Fire Blockade.

Bottom line: I've been using lightning for years, because it used to seem better and that's what most of my gear is. But fire is probably better, and indeed I've somewhat switched over.

Cerra

Don't worry about DPS, worry about how fast things die. Test both setups and see.

Browiseth

Cerra wrote: »

Don't worry about DPS, worry about how fast things die. Test both setups and see.

that is...exactly what dps is, yes. "how fast things die"

Cerra

No, it's often how much damage you do to a dummy, which often has no correlation to how much damage you do to things in actual combat. For instance, attacks that do more damage than the critter has life left. That's wasted damage but the dummy will record it as damage done. Sometimes quicker lower damage attacks do better because they still kill the target but you can go onto the next target faster. This is just one example.

Varana

supaskrub wrote: »

Passives from the destro skill line, Inferno has an 8% amp on single target damage, shock has 8% on aoe damage.

The Ancient Knowledge passive says "Equipping a Flame Staff increases your damage done with single target abilities by 8%" - and (a bit weirdly) that includes Light and Heavy Attacks. Boosting your light attacks by 8% (boosted even further by the Maelstrom staff) is very helpful.
(For a heavy attack build, a lightning staff may be more practical due to how the channelled attacks work but I'm not really sure.)

Vajrak

Amorpho wrote: »

It seems that VMA inferno staff is the meta for PvE (on every class). And yet, I wonder if the Lightning VMA staff might perform better on a Magicka Sorc? Apart from the minor vulnerability applied by concussed, sorcerers get a 5% extra damage on lightning damage. What am I not seeing?

Okay, plain and simple here you are getting a lot of stupid answers that aren't answering your question.

Why is vMA Infused Inferno Staff the meta --- Because it is your backbar, and as such means you are getting a high spell damage value and uptime (infused) AND the light attack bonus damage AND a high uptime on the burning status effect, which a lightning staff can't proc.

So what is the major difference here?
1) Status Effect: Burning overall does more consistent and parsed damage than Concussed. True, the minor vulnerability MAY cause more overall damage, but liquid lightning and other players shock blockade should already have you at/near max uptime for that anyway.

2) The 5% bonus to shock damage doesn't really compare to the damage differential on burning itself; at best, it MAY be able to put the lightning staff on par or only slightly below, but when you are discussing BiS items, even 1 point of damage more disqualifies the other. That doesn't mean it's not viable, it's just not BEST.

3) The obvious, if you are using ilambris as your monster set, Flame Blockade+Liquid Lightning will give you the most consistent uptime of both effects, whereas with a lightning vMA backbar, you are going to be forced into an inferno front, with flame damage enchant most likely, and depending on your built that may make no difference (force pulse spam) OR your spell damage (2%).

TL;DR version - Infused Inferno vMA Staff is Best-in-slot due entirely to the damage variance between Burning and Concussion on a direct parse, because the 4s minor vulnerability is harder to qualify and is likely going to come from other sources (Liquid Lightning, Charge Lightning on healer backbar, set procs).

MaxJrFTW

Pretty easy to test. Just do a parse and see where most of your dmg comes from.

Inferno staff = Crystal Fragments, Curse, Rearming Trap(if you use it), spammable, and light/heavy attacks?

Lightning staff = Elemental Blockade, Liquid Lightning, and your ultimate.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

First understand that in most content, you are probably splitting hairs. That said, if your goal is to maximize single target DPS, fire is better. A good group will have a source of engulfing flames, which is a 10% boost to flame damage. This means your 5% buff to shock damage (talking about blockade and back bar light attacks) gets out performed by 10% fire buff. Also realize that most good groups will have other sources of lighting blockade (healers) for the other effects. Lastly, in trial DPS, you almost always want to prioritize ST damage, and based on the destro passives, this again favors fire.

Now if you are solo, or there are no other sources of engulfing or lighting blockade, lightning might become the better option.

SammyFable

All of the above (well, almost) + Blockade of Fire does 10 or 20% additional damage vs burning targets and someone in your group (most likely the tank(s)) will usually run Engulfing Flames, giving your falme abilities 10% additional damage.

Maythor wrote: »

I'd presume that in an optimal group support roles would be supplying the minor vulnerability, and due to the destro passives that give single target increase of 8% (think that's right), and is there also a possibility of burning (I'm sort of working this out as I type) .. flame usually seems to edge out lightning on boss fights.

However, as said above both can work and situationally, so I'd guess either might have advantages in certain fights.

Hopefully someone can confirm all that, or tell you the real reasons

Light and Heavy Attacks don't apply status effects, though they do proc enchants which can apply status effects with a 20% chance.

Cerra wrote: »

Don't worry about DPS, worry about how fast things die. Test both setups and see.

Well, they are directly correlated to each other. More DPS = things die faster.

Vildebill

Blockade of fire does a lot more damage on burning enemies than blockade of storm, that's the only reason you run fire blockade on the backbar, you are getting a lot of bullcrap answers here.

Ilambris uptime is as good with a fire glyph, which you should run either way front bar to proc burning.

Off balance was nerfed some patches ago, so no damage dealer who wants to maximize their DPS runs lightning on back bar.

If you have more AoE than single target (like a heavy attacking pet sorc normally have) you should run lightning on from bar. Otherwise double fire.

This is obviously for maximizing DPS. You can always run double lightning and do just fine if you like it more

Hallothiel

I would use the lightening staff as the animation is far more satisfying than that of the inferno staff - but then I dislike following the meta / BiS 😆

SoLooney

Inferno will do more damage single target because of the ancient knowledge passive and your wall will do 20 perc more damage on burned enemies.

Meta groups arent running shock because healers provide minor vulnerability with infallible aether and tanks and healers are putting down their shock walls anyways, so its redundant that dps do it.

Shock walls only benefit stamina dps as magicka dps are not speccing 75 points into the ritual for the exploiter passive.

It might be ok on a mag sorc but most I see are running maelstrom infernos. Or just have a sorc healer

Cerra wrote: »

Don't worry about DPS, worry about how fast things die. Test both setups and see.

You should worry about dps if you're worrying about how fast things die lol

Amorpho

Vajrak wrote: »

Amorpho wrote: »

It seems that VMA inferno staff is the meta for PvE (on every class). And yet, I wonder if the Lightning VMA staff might perform better on a Magicka Sorc? Apart from the minor vulnerability applied by concussed, sorcerers get a 5% extra damage on lightning damage. What am I not seeing?

Okay, plain and simple here you are getting a lot of stupid answers that aren't answering your question.

Why is vMA Infused Inferno Staff the meta --- Because it is your backbar, and as such means you are getting a high spell damage value and uptime (infused) AND the light attack bonus damage AND a high uptime on the burning status effect, which a lightning staff can't proc.

So what is the major difference here?
1) Status Effect: Burning overall does more consistent and parsed damage than Concussed. True, the minor vulnerability MAY cause more overall damage, but liquid lightning and other players shock blockade should already have you at/near max uptime for that anyway.

2) The 5% bonus to shock damage doesn't really compare to the damage differential on burning itself; at best, it MAY be able to put the lightning staff on par or only slightly below, but when you are discussing BiS items, even 1 point of damage more disqualifies the other. That doesn't mean it's not viable, it's just not BEST.

3) The obvious, if you are using ilambris as your monster set, Flame Blockade+Liquid Lightning will give you the most consistent uptime of both effects, whereas with a lightning vMA backbar, you are going to be forced into an inferno front, with flame damage enchant most likely, and depending on your built that may make no difference (force pulse spam) OR your spell damage (2%).

TL;DR version - Infused Inferno vMA Staff is Best-in-slot due entirely to the damage variance between Burning and Concussion on a direct parse, because the 4s minor vulnerability is harder to qualify and is likely going to come from other sources (Liquid Lightning, Charge Lightning on healer backbar, set procs).

awesome answer, thank you

Vajrak

SoLooney wrote: »

Shock walls only benefit stamina dps as magicka dps are not speccing 75 points into the ritual for the exploiter passive.

Just about every magicka build has 75 (for passive) or 81 into Thaum (jump point) for the DoT boost, so I don't know where you got the idea that magicka dps aren't getting the exploiter passive from.

siddique

I've been doing some rotation with both vma lightning and inferno on back bar. As people have said, inferno has more single target damage but I find lightning to be better for my gameplay.

Because I heavy attack every third rotation, otherwise i have sustain issues, so lightning staff seems to do better for me. I'm still stuck at 43k though.

worrallj

Not sure if I'm right, but my understanding is that it depends on the build. Because the top tier meta builds use significant amounts of single target dps, inferno is considered BiS. But if you did a more AOE focused build (magplar jabs as the spammable comes to my mind) I would think that could change.

Vajrak

worrallj wrote: »

Not sure if I'm right, but my understanding is that it depends on the build. Because the top tier meta builds use significant amounts of single target dps, inferno is considered BiS. But if you did a more AOE focused build (magplar jabs as the spammable comes to my mind) I would think that could change.

In this instance you are wrong.

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS TARGETED AT NO SPECIFIC PERSON HERE

The question was not about Inferno vs Lightning staff.

It was about MAELSTROM Inferno vs MAELSTROM Lightning staff.

There is no question nor involvement of the destro passives that needs consideration in this.

The question is: Why is Maelstrom Inferno Staff (infused ideally) best-in-slot over Maelstrom Lightning Staff (again, infused ideally)

The answer is because BURNING is an overall stronger status effect in terms of pure damage output than concussion/minor vulnerability, and the vulnerability is harder to quantify on a parse as well as having other ways of being applied more often and more consistently.

Please, everyone, stop trying to answer lightning staff vs inferno staff (not the question) and answer the actual question of why the Maelstrom Inferno is BiS (on backbar). No matter which you are using on your frontbar, the inferno will be the BiS on the backbar because of the burning status effect combined with the innate bonus of the vMA weapon.

siddique

Here is the thing though, you can parse a 50k on a 3 mil dummy with either of those vma staves on the back bar.

MagSorcerers have a huge sustain problem too, which is why a vma lightning staff helps as heavy attacking while off balance gets you twice the resources back.

Vajrak

siddique wrote: »

Here is the thing though, you can parse a 50k on a 3 mil dummy with either of those vma staves on the back bar.

MagSorcerers have a huge sustain problem too, which is why a vma lightning staff helps as heavy attacking while off balance gets you twice the resources back.

I have a mag sorc I've been playing on lately, cp 250, and is having no real sustain issues using dual inferno --- maybe one heavy attack every 5th or 6th rotation, longer if getting fed resources.

siddique

Vajrak wrote: »

siddique wrote: »

Here is the thing though, you can parse a 50k on a 3 mil dummy with either of those vma staves on the back bar.

MagSorcerers have a huge sustain problem too, which is why a vma lightning staff helps as heavy attacking while off balance gets you twice the resources back.

I have a mag sorc I've been playing on lately, cp 250, and is having no real sustain issues using dual inferno --- maybe one heavy attack every 5th or 6th rotation, longer if getting fed resources.

On a 3 mil or 6 mil dummy? And what dps?

mairwen85

siddique wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

siddique wrote: »

Here is the thing though, you can parse a 50k on a 3 mil dummy with either of those vma staves on the back bar.

MagSorcerers have a huge sustain problem too, which is why a vma lightning staff helps as heavy attacking while off balance gets you twice the resources back.

I have a mag sorc I've been playing on lately, cp 250, and is having no real sustain issues using dual inferno --- maybe one heavy attack every 5th or 6th rotation, longer if getting fed resources.

On a 3 mil or 6 mil dummy? And what dps?

I'm with @siddique on this. Sorc sustain is notoriously bad (possibly the only class identity left ).

siddique

I'm with @siddique on this. Sorc sustain is notoriously bad (possibly the only class identity left ).

Exactly! Unless you count the precursor I can get a 55k on it without dropping an ultimate or worrying about my sustain.

Amorpho

mairwen85 wrote: »

siddique wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

siddique wrote: »

Here is the thing though, you can parse a 50k on a 3 mil dummy with either of those vma staves on the back bar.

MagSorcerers have a huge sustain problem too, which is why a vma lightning staff helps as heavy attacking while off balance gets you twice the resources back.

I have a mag sorc I've been playing on lately, cp 250, and is having no real sustain issues using dual inferno --- maybe one heavy attack every 5th or 6th rotation, longer if getting fed resources.

On a 3 mil or 6 mil dummy? And what dps?

I'm with @siddique on this. Sorc sustain is notoriously bad (possibly the only class identity left ).

That's why I race changed from altmer with witchmother brew to breton with blue food - the best decision I ever made in ESO!

pod88kk

I use a lightning one...... Because RNGesus doesn't think I'm worthy enough for a flame one

Vajrak

siddique wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

siddique wrote: »

Here is the thing though, you can parse a 50k on a 3 mil dummy with either of those vma staves on the back bar.

MagSorcerers have a huge sustain problem too, which is why a vma lightning staff helps as heavy attacking while off balance gets you twice the resources back.

I have a mag sorc I've been playing on lately, cp 250, and is having no real sustain issues using dual inferno --- maybe one heavy attack every 5th or 6th rotation, longer if getting fed resources.

On a 3 mil or 6 mil dummy? And what dps?

Live fight, not dummy tested, CMX parse around 16-18k in Vet2 Dungeons currently (single target, last fight was on Valkyn Skoria/CoA2) but also still working on it's gear; it's a pet project account, so no helping it from other account/new player experience --- so it's in research stages on gear, managed to luckily get it's illambris, no gold gear, alter, using blue food and shadow mundus. Gear "Sets" at the moment are illambris and destruction mastery, no second set yet (working on getting enough up for julianos or farming a set). Enchants are currently 1 spell damage, 2 recovery (neither legendary yet), weapon not gold. Mages guild only rank 6 at the moment, so no extra recovery from any of the skills there, though that will be nice and may let me drop 1 of the recoveries.

There's a cute little trick you can use here, in Dark Conversion --- hit Surge>Conversion>Wall>Liquid; by time you bar switch you're back to full magicka, so you are starting your front bar rotation on a full bar. Re-apply every 2nd rotation with Surge>Dark>Wall>Liquid, and pot as it's up. Works very well to keep the sustain up for the slight delay.

Waiting eagerly for more CP and golded weapons to see it perform even better, but sustain is not an issue at all with that backbar rotation, you lose 1 LA on while on backbar (Wall>Liquid) every 2nd rotation.

r34lian

I only use vMA flame staff Cuz I was lucky enough to to get it on my 4th run took me 18 runs to get bow not really a fan of that place unless they remove rng I'm content with what I got :^