Why is balancing PvE seems so hard in this game ?

david_m_18b16_ESO

Hi,at first I'd like to state this post is strickly from a PvE perspective as PvP is a totaly different animal.

I'am playing mmo's for the past 20 years. I am not an expert about Elder Scroll online as I have played only a few months upon release then I have quitted due to how clunky and un-polish the game was. I'm back now and I have my second lvl 50 toon and still only at 263cp.

But what I see is that class hiearchy almost haven't shifted since release and when balance occured it took years in most case. An example would be how DK are the top tank since the game lunched.

Normaly, game developpers struggle balancing because they must release expension with new emchanics, higher lvl cap and new class skill faster then they can fix things.

But ESO is almost frozen in time. Class never get any new skills (yeah I know they get re-worked sometimes but its never a bulk works and usualy just a few skil across all class at a time). In fact the lvl cap is the same since launch. Sure we have CP increased from time to time but this system is the same across all class and ususaly don't shift the balance of power that much. I mean if CP cap would be increased bu 200 tomorrow the class that are over performing now would probably be the ones over performing after the increase.

Basicaly new chapters bring a few new sets and sometimes a new guild. Stuff that are available to every single class so again, do little in therm of shifting the balance since the BIS ses are pretty much the same for everyone playing X dps role.

WoW can't balance its game cuz they like to completely rework class abilities every expension, so they start from scratch every year and half or so.
Everquest 2 add new class spells every expension and new class restricted CP like abilities every 2 expension and they are too poor to spend efforts on class balance.
Rift is on maintenance mode

But ESO is in a healty state and have a slow pace of game changing content. I really can't see why it is so hard to balance damage numbers and buff/debuff a class can bring vs other class. Cuz lets face it, what make a tank/healer class to be at the top or not are the buff/debuff they bring.

The only reason I could see is the fear to brake balance in PvP due to PvE changes. But well then just copy everquest 2 and have different tooltip for skill and set in PvP and PvP. Yeah everquest 2 sets bonus have different numbers/effect depending if your doing PvP or PvE. So stupid proc set meant for PvE could be tuned down for PvP.

Caleb_Kadesh

You keep saying that word...

Coatmagic

Welcome to the wonderful world of ZoS refuse to stop trying to balance pvp and pve, LOL.

Beating a dead horse as they are too stubborn (or stupid) to realise they are never gonna pull it off.

Apparently it is too difficult to make proc sets unusable in pvp ~ >
must be in with the same code that would allow players to turn down/off spell effects
(which would actually make pvp playable for so many of their players).

Whatever... I pick flowers xD

Juhasow

53m 25s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYywv9H6Jxw&t=3207s

david_m_18b16_ESO

Caleb_Kadesh wrote: »

You keep saying that word...

Sorry english is a foreign language to me and I am fairly limited about synonyms

mcagatayg

Juhasow wrote: »

53m 25s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYywv9H6Jxw&t=3207s

actually a good response, and understandable from a dev point of view.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

david_m_18b16_ESO wrote: »

Hi,at first I'd like to state this post is strickly from a PvE perspective as PvP is a totaly different animal.

I'am playing mmo's for the past 20 years. I am not an expert about Elder Scroll online as I have played only a few months upon release then I have quitted due to how clunky and un-polish the game was. I'm back now and I have my second lvl 50 toon and still only at 263cp.

But what I see is that class hiearchy almost haven't shifted since release and when balance occured it took years in most case. An example would be how DK are the top tank since the game lunched.

That is a misconception. DKs are not the top tanks.
Sorcerer, Templar and especially Wardens are equal if not superior tanks (Sorc, Warden).

However there are fewer people play Sorc tank especially because there are many like yourself who are stuck on a mindset "DK tank or get out of the group". You haven't played a Templar, NB, Sorcerer or Warden tank, that is why you have a whole page of nonsense. And is not only you, but a significant majority of "elitists" have that mindset as they are coming from different games were classes are more hard codes to specific roles.

Trust me, I have all 5 classes tanks. I take Templar, Sorc and Warden out for a spin in vet HM stuff much easier than the DK.
The latter is heavily relying on the "perfect group" something that is a "unicorn" even in guild groups let alone PUGs. True on the "unicorn" group the DK tank is better, but thats rare at best. At least for us the casual players.

Morgul667

I dont think it is that hard if you change things little by little instead of everything every 3 months

At this point i believe the devs are responsible

I mean Look at last pts ....

david_m_18b16_ESO

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

david_m_18b16_ESO wrote: »

Hi,at first I'd like to state this post is strickly from a PvE perspective as PvP is a totaly different animal.

I'am playing mmo's for the past 20 years. I am not an expert about Elder Scroll online as I have played only a few months upon release then I have quitted due to how clunky and un-polish the game was. I'm back now and I have my second lvl 50 toon and still only at 263cp.

But what I see is that class hiearchy almost haven't shifted since release and when balance occured it took years in most case. An example would be how DK are the top tank since the game lunched.

True on the "unicorn" group the DK tank is better, but thats rare at best. At least for us the casual players.

So you have 3 full paragraph saying that I am wrong about DK beeing the best tank but then your last sentence agree it is the best tank for perfect group...

Gilvoth

Juhasow wrote: »

53m 25s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYywv9H6Jxw&t=3207s

that is from 3 years ago, and some of those people dont even still work at zenimax.
the guy talking (Eric Wrobel) not even an employee anymore.
i doubt they still hold those methods he was talking about because hes not even the boss of balance anymore, hes removed.

and in addition to that:
many groups on this forum all think differently and want different fighting styles.
none of them agree.
so every day they make new threads all asking for nerfs to thier enemies builds and weapons and playstyles that they dont like.
its a horror fest.
the people with the most in their forum complaint group wins the nerf against their enemies, and they get the nerf they want for their group.
its horrible for everyone.
the only way to stop it is for the developers to step in.

david_m_18b16_ESO

mcagatayg wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

53m 25s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYywv9H6Jxw&t=3207s

actually a good response, and understandable from a dev point of view.

Wich is something they have said long time ago and pretty much why blizzard have been agaisnt seperating PvP from PvE until they gave up.

Even if you put the same number on an item/skill in PvP and PvE the experience won't be the same. PvP =/= PvE. I'm am not talking about having skills performing completely different in PvP then in PvE. But numbers tweak should be differents.

We curently have the same effect on sets and skill on both part of the game and player still build and play their character in different ways depending if they are going player killing or dragon killing.

I just think the dev went hyperbole about differentiating PvP from PvE. I don't think that anybody asked for change that would make PvP and PvE feel like its a complete different game.

While some could argue that even now, both feel pretty much that way. My Stamblade is a totaly different class while PvPing then PvEing.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

david_m_18b16_ESO wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

david_m_18b16_ESO wrote: »

Hi,at first I'd like to state this post is strickly from a PvE perspective as PvP is a totaly different animal.

I'am playing mmo's for the past 20 years. I am not an expert about Elder Scroll online as I have played only a few months upon release then I have quitted due to how clunky and un-polish the game was. I'm back now and I have my second lvl 50 toon and still only at 263cp.

But what I see is that class hiearchy almost haven't shifted since release and when balance occured it took years in most case. An example would be how DK are the top tank since the game lunched.

True on the "unicorn" group the DK tank is better, but thats rare at best. At least for us the casual players.

So you have 3 full paragraph saying that I am wrong about DK beeing the best tank but then your last sentence agree it is the best tank for perfect group...

Is that you understood? I said DK is only under conditions. Otherwise the rest are far better than the DK given that they have more self reliant skill sets

david_m_18b16_ESO

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

david_m_18b16_ESO wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

david_m_18b16_ESO wrote: »

Hi,at first I'd like to state this post is strickly from a PvE perspective as PvP is a totaly different animal.

I'am playing mmo's for the past 20 years. I am not an expert about Elder Scroll online as I have played only a few months upon release then I have quitted due to how clunky and un-polish the game was. I'm back now and I have my second lvl 50 toon and still only at 263cp.

But what I see is that class hiearchy almost haven't shifted since release and when balance occured it took years in most case. An example would be how DK are the top tank since the game lunched.

True on the "unicorn" group the DK tank is better, but thats rare at best. At least for us the casual players.

So you have 3 full paragraph saying that I am wrong about DK beeing the best tank but then your last sentence agree it is the best tank for perfect group...

Is that you understood? I said DK is only under conditions. Otherwise the rest are far better than the DK given that they have more self reliant skill sets

Wich is pretty much the reason DK are seen as the best tank. I didn't mean that DK were the absolute best tank under every circumstance. Its not game breaking and only a minor problems but fact still that ESO meta takes time to shift.

Personaly I careless about DK tank as I main a petless sorc in PvE and a bow gank NB in PvP (and I am bad).

Sylosi

If you want good PvE balance in an MMORPG play one with very fixed roles and a trait/build system that is reasonably restrictive, because that is the only real way to achieve it consistently. (and even then many still have issues with DPS, because they have too many DPS classes or issues in easier content with support classes not being needed)

Linaleah

even in games where classes and skill sets are incredibly rigid, it can be difficult to balance them. in ESO - 1% meta aside, we actualy have flexibility in creating wide variety of builds. balancing THAT? is a gosh darn nightmare.

as long as you give players any kind of choice - players will always. ALWAYS find meta that in specific conditions will perform better then alternatives. ALWAYS

the only way to achieve perfect balance is to remove choice and that will, ironically - remove players right along with it. all things concidered, i may not always agree with ZoS's decisions but at least they are still trying.

Goregrinder

Gilvoth wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

53m 25s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYywv9H6Jxw&t=3207s

that is from 3 years ago, and some of those people dont even still work at zenimax.
the guy talking (Eric Wrobel) not even an employee anymore.
i doubt they still hold those methods he was talking about because hes not even the boss of balance anymore, hes removed.

and in addition to that:
many groups on this forum all think differently and want different fighting styles.
none of them agree.
so every day they make new threads all asking for nerfs to thier enemies builds and weapons and playstyles that they dont like.
its a horror fest.
the people with the most in their forum complaint group wins the nerf against their enemies, and they get the nerf they want for their group.
its horrible for everyone.
the only way to stop it is for the developers to step in.

You doubt that based on...what evidence? Or are you arguing out of ignorance?

Kadoin

They can't balance it because they don't look at the big picture and only look at changes on a micro scale.

Example? Removal of major protection from resto ult pretty much ensures most mag classes won't have it. Instead they keep major force when there is another general purpose ultimate that has that buff on it that everyone can use, and in almost every PvP and PvE instance you would NOT use resto ult over a damage ult for damage or warhorn, and you would also not want a damage buff when using it considering you would use resto ult as a last resort to HEAL yourself and/or others. Not to mention restoration staff does not have a single damaging skill.

It's the perfect example of how some changes are simply nonsensical, and "balancing" in the wrong direction. I honestly have no idea what ZOS was trying to accomplish with this nerf, because if you ask me the major protection should have been left on the ult and major force should have been the buff to lose .

Resto staves in PvE are used to heal people and that heal would be either from a tank or healer when NO ONE else can heal and things are either going wrong or there needs to be a lot of healing to overcome a stupid DPS check that would otherwise wipe the group. How exactly does major force on a HEALING ULT accomplish this? No one was running the ultimate for major force, but instead it was for major protection. Life giver was not used because most healers keep the buffs it gives on their party without the ult! Maybe the change was made to push more wardens being required? Who knows?

Yet major force stays and major protection goes. It's balancing like this that shows they do not look at the big picture enough when balancing. What's stupid is that if the change was to nerf heavy armor builds in PvP with resto staves, it still fails because the problem isn't major protection when someone is blocking and unkillable w/ resto ult. In fact, in that situation life giver would have always been the better ult to use anyway + using the saved bar slots for class skills instead or resto stave skills.

Yet ZOS balances according to "data" and sees many people use light's champion as it is on live and decides to change it to make the other morph "compete." It still won't happen because resto ult is primarily used for healing, and again, no one needs redundant buffs from an ult unless they don't have the skills slotted. The only problem with that is that in PvE and PvP, you have to have as many buffs up as possible as often as possible, esp. if you are either a healer (PvE) or light armor wearer in PvP!

All that will be accomplished is that the skill will be taken off people's bars, and in my case I'm just trashing resto staff in PvP and mag in general. If one of those buffs had to go, they should have taken major force off.

The sad part is that you can substitute "light's champion" for another skill every single patch. And sure enough, the skills gets "nerfed" or "rebalanced" or whatever you want to call it, and no one uses the other morph, and the skill get trashed. Unless of course, someone finds a bug with it and its not patched for 6 months +. Rinse, repeat.

ZOS could rectify this by actually listening to player input instead of ignoring it. Instead, only if players make a lot of noise do they care. Sadly that won't be the case for light's champion, but I hope they pay close attention to their data when those changes go live and they see less healers, less tanks, and less completions of HM content because of the DPS checks and other cheese ball mechanics in the game that require godly amounts of healing and damage reduction to beat when the DPS simply isn't enough.

DenMoria

ZoS is built to appeal to a broader audience of people than the average MMO player.

Most MMO's are just that, MMO's, but ESO is built to appeal, not just, to the MMO crowd, but also to the vast TES audience that has been built up over the years in the Single Player environment.

While it is all well and good for MMO players to want ESO to be the average MMO, to maintain even the semblance of being a TES game, it has to be different.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

I would argue the game is actually very balance from a PVE perspective. Much more than it has been in the past. There are definitely class/specs that underperform as damage dealers, but the days of 8 NBs or 8 Sorcs as damage dealers are behind us.

As to tanks specifically, well all class can tank, but certainly DK are the best. If all classes are equally good at all things, whats the point of classes?

We had 4 classes at launch. It was pretty obvious that DKs were meant to tank, Templars were meant to heal, and NBs and Sorcs were your damage dealers. That fit perfectly into the classic role trinity we have seen in 4 man groups in RPGs since early console RPGs like final fantasy. The fact that DKs are the best tanks or templars are the best healers, does not on its face mean that balance is an issue.

MartiniDaniels

Despite all the forum outrages, ZOS does what majority wants. Yes, sometimes they may enforce bitter medicine with global changes, but it's rare case. In most they balance it like:
- if global change will hurt meta class in certain role, buff meta class to compensate. Other classes in that role.. "oh, later"
- if some class/skill is under-performing in certain role, but people are still using it -> they change that class/skill so they can't be used in that role at all

ZOS can't simply buff everything on regular basis, because 90% of content is already relatively easy when you are 810 CP and have good gear. And they can't nerf everything, because of leaderboard scores.

And on top of that, there is PVP where theorycrafters analyze any change and if something can be exploited, it will be done in few days.

AlienatedGoat

To be honest, PvE isn't the thing that is hard to balance. It's PvP.

If PvP changes didn't affect PvE balance, PvE could've licked balance years ago.

Unfortunately, ZOS is intent on making their jobs harder and balancing the two modes together instead of separately.

DenMoria

AlienatedGoat wrote: »

To be honest, PvE isn't the thing that is hard to balance. It's PvP.

If PvP changes didn't affect PvE balance, PvE could've licked balance years ago.

Unfortunately, ZOS is intent on making their jobs harder and balancing the two modes together instead of separately.

They have this weird idea that all people who do PvE do PvP and vice-versa.

We all know that's not true.

AlienatedGoat

To clarify balance though, "balance" is never a finished product in a living game. It's always in flux. So there will never be perfect "balance", but in a well-managed living game, you can approximate "balance" by looking at the segments of time between major updates and determining if the game was reasonably balanced between each segment, on average.

AlienatedGoat

DenMoria wrote: »

AlienatedGoat wrote: »

To be honest, PvE isn't the thing that is hard to balance. It's PvP.

If PvP changes didn't affect PvE balance, PvE could've licked balance years ago.

Unfortunately, ZOS is intent on making their jobs harder and balancing the two modes together instead of separately.

They have this weird idea that all people who do PvE do PvP and vice-versa.

We all know that's not true.

It's wishful thinking on ZOS's part. Firor and the oldbies in the dev team largely came from PvP MMO backgrounds, and they still want PvP to be relevant in ESO.

The sad part is that PvP would be more relevant if they had the freedom to balance it with only PvP in mind.

El_Borracho

Balance is a difficult concept in PVE as everyone has their own definition. For me, you can't have everything hit the same, heal the same, or tank the same because that turns skills, builds, races, etc. into cosmetics. At the same time, you can't have one class/build be so dominant that others are pointless to play. I think ESO has done a very good job in achieving that balance.

So much of PVE has to do with rotation, play style, and skill level. Someone can take a stamblade and hit 50K while others can't crack 35K on the same build. This holds true across almost all classes, which its frustrating when players call for nerfs along class lines. I understand that the devs need to keep the game fresh, hence the changes that seem to be made every 2 years. But despite all the changes, the top 3-4 DPS still hit within 1-2K of each other. Seems pretty balanced to me

AlienatedGoat

El_Borracho wrote: »

Balance is a difficult concept in PVE as everyone has their own definition. For me, you can't have everything hit the same, heal the same, or tank the same because that turns skills, builds, races, etc. into cosmetics. At the same time, you can't have one class/build be so dominant that others are pointless to play. I think ESO has done a very good job in achieving that balance.

So much of PVE has to do with rotation, play style, and skill level. Someone can take a stamblade and hit 50K while others can't crack 35K on the same build. This holds true across almost all classes, which its frustrating when players call for nerfs along class lines. I understand that the devs need to keep the game fresh, hence the changes that seem to be made every 2 years. But despite all the changes, the top 3-4 DPS still hit within 1-2K of each other. Seems pretty balanced to me

There's a lot more to balance than the end result DPS of builds. There's class balance, skill balance, gear balance, and so on. While end result DPS might seem balanced, the rest isn't. Classes aren't balanced very well for other roles, with certain classes overperforming and others having inadequate toolkits. Skills are greatly unbalanced, with a small percentage of viable skills for any build, resulting in builds being very similar to each other (especially stam). Gear had a brief time after HotR where it was more or less balanced, but new sets are quickly widing that gap again.

There are many more aspects of PvE balance that need addressing, and it is incredibly difficult to address them while balancing PvE and PvP together. There are a plethora of skills and gear that could be reworked to have greater inclusion in PvE builds, but for every change it has to be PvP-checked, which is just not an effective use of time.

Banana

They wont separate pve and pvp. So will never happen

AlienatedGoat

Banana wrote: »

They wont separate pve and pvp. So will never happen

The attitude of ZOS towards other things has changed or softened over the years, so I see no reason to believe that balancing modes separately is the exception. I've also seen nothing to the contrary.

Juhasow

Gilvoth wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

53m 25s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYywv9H6Jxw&t=3207s

that is from 3 years ago, and some of those people dont even still work at zenimax.
the guy talking (Eric Wrobel) not even an employee anymore.
i doubt they still hold those methods he was talking about because hes not even the boss of balance anymore, hes removed.

and in addition to that:
many groups on this forum all think differently and want different fighting styles.
none of them agree.
so every day they make new threads all asking for nerfs to thier enemies builds and weapons and playstyles that they dont like.
its a horror fest.
the people with the most in their forum complaint group wins the nerf against their enemies, and they get the nerf they want for their group.
its horrible for everyone.
the only way to stop it is for the developers to step in.

This was just one of the easier to show examples. I dont think he is speaking for himself there or that those are his "methods". He is just voicing general idea for the game that people above him made and he is just executing it. They mentioned similar things about not separating PvE and PvP multiple times and different devs not only Wrobel were saying that especially around game initial existance. Fact they were saying it few years ago doesnt mean something have changed in their minds. They said what's their goal and I dont think now they'll come and announce they havn't changed their minds every month lol.

As for people whining on forum You act like there would be robot collecting the data from forum and without thinking about it implementing that to the game. Devs are stepping out every time they make changes to the game for better or worse and I dont think 1 random whiner can change something. Where there is hundereds or thousands of people that complain about same thing in short period of time that is a clue for developer that certain thing requires to be looked at.

Tasear

😏 they just need to fix organial classes so they have tank and heal skill lines

AlienatedGoat

Tasear wrote: »

😏 they just need to fix organial classes so they have tank and heal skill lines

Misread as 'organical classes' and thought of Whole Foods.

I agree though, off-meta support classes need some work on their non-DPS toolkits.