Should Argonian passives be buffed a little bit?

Knowledge

The healing passive is nice even though it's inferior to Altmer or Dunmer. However, I think it wedges argonians into two roles. That said, you have Khajiit that have a passive that improves damage AND healing critical. While the Argonian is a heal-only passive. If Argonian IS going to be wedged into a role maybe it should be given a little bit more max resources to compensate?

HowlKimchi

current argonian passives are fine

Aliyavana

As a dunmer, i need to state that argonians dont need buffs

StormeReigns

Nah. Much as I do love argonian. They are fine.

But if I did have a choice, I'd say, make the Resourceful passive have like a 3% DoT damage bonus baked in that effects all dots (bleeds, poisons, diseases, curses etc.)

Ertosi

Yes. I want to swim faster.

Ratzkifal

I don't see why people say Argonian passives are fine. The potion sustain might be fine, which makes them good for healing, but having only 1k max magicka cripples their viability as DPS and they are objectively the worst of the "tank races" with only 1k health and nothing they offer the group. Healing done is a weak stat as an Argonian would need to have 2500 spell damage to benefit more from 6% healing done over an additional 258 spell damage and no healer needs 2500 spell damage because of "overheal". They are the worst race and their lore isn't in order either.

Edit: My math was off, it's actually even worse. 2% healing (1item set bonus) becomes stronger than 129 Spell damage (1item set bonus) beyond 5000 spell damage. Altmer get 258 spell damage, Argonians 6% healing -> Argonians outperform Altmer at (5000*2)/3 = 3333 spell damage, not 2500. Meaning for the purpose of "item set bonus calculation" which ZOS did to determine racial balance, Argonians are still underbuffed.

Nemesis7884

i wouldnt mind buffing races slightly that are a bit underrepresented in the game to make it more diverse (i assumed this was the strategy with orcs)... i could see how they could increase the magicka bonus to 1500 and wouldnt feel this was in any way op...

StormeReigns

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I don't see why people say Argonian passives are fine. The potion sustain might be fine, which makes them good for healing, but having only 1k max magicka cripples their viability as DPS and they are objectively the worst of the "tank races" with only 1k health and nothing they offer the group. Healing done is a weak stat as an Argonian would need to have 2500 spell damage to benefit more from 6% healing done over an additional 258 spell damage and no healer needs 2500 spell damage because of "overheal". They are the worst race and their lore isn't in order either.

Meh. Opinions. I do fine on my Stam warden which is argonian, self buff pulling 54k dps. As well my Healer/DPS mag warden which is argonian heals groups just fine and pulls enough dps to solo and provide quick bursts as needed.

Sure, they as a race are lack luster and racials are not the best, but they are fine as dps, tanks and heals. From a lore point a view, they still hold losts of mysteries. But plenty of unique tribes mixed in them that are fascinating. Sure, Argonians lore not in order, but as a whole they easily stand out far more than silly ugly savage elves, tall racist elves, short cannibal elves and racist snooty elves, and furry meth elves and stereotypical hoomans.

Not every single little detail needs to be min-maxed to absolute absurdity to qualify as fine or not.

D0PAMINE

I have an Argonian Nightblade Tank, and it seems to be doing just great. I ran some Vet HM's with him and it was fun.

Ratzkifal

SkerKro wrote: »

[...]
Sure, they as a race are lack luster and racials are not the best [...]

Not every single little detail needs to be min-maxed to absolute absurdity to qualify as fine or not.

@SkerKro But isn't that the point of this thread though? Their racials are not "the best" at anything. They aren't even more versatile than other races. They could use a small buff. That you can pull 54k dps on your stamden isn't thanks to you being Argonian. You'd probably do equally well or more likely even better on Bosmer, Redguard or Orc/Dunmer. It's great that your individual skill is high enough to compensate the theoretical weakness of the race and make it work anyway, but that's not what balance is about is it? Ideally you'd want all options to be viable, with each excelling at their "thing".

That's kind of the issue I am seeing here. There is no situation in which Argonian is the best option unless we are talking about a healer with 3333 spell damage (my math was off in the last reply, it's actually worse) who needs even bigger heals for some reason as if that boost would already make the difference between having to use breath of life once or twice, which would actually be relevant for combat.

The only situation in which an Argonian is a better option than other races would be for a beginner tank who is still struggling to stay alive and sustain and can't focus on group buffs yet. I don't think Argonians should be "the training wheel race" though. And this is coming from someone who doesn't play Argonian and has no personal (grave-)stake in this. The math behind the passive speaks for itself though.

The lore is a mess because they are clearly resistant to both poison and disease even according to ESO's own quests and lore. It's sad that ZOS is so keen on having no passives other than raw attributes shared among races. Bosmer poison resistance is the reason Argonians aren't immune to poison anymore, even if that is a major plot point in one sidequest of ESO.

What I would like to see would be a conditional resistance that goes up whenever you are hit by either poison or disease damage and grants you the corresponding resistance for a few seconds to show that Argonians can adapt to their environment, but leaving them open to the other for the duration. And make the healing done at least 8% so that they break even with Altmer at 2500 spell damage.

StormeReigns

Fallacy. If you have to min max and have try to force others to use the BiS races to get the overwhelming feeling to have any bit of fun that is on you.

DreadDaedroth

Argonian passives should be restored to how they were before Wrathstone.
Overall adjust the argonian resistences passive.

Ratzkifal

SkerKro wrote: »

Fallacy. If you have to min max and have try to force others to use the BiS races to get the overwhelming feeling to have any bit of fun that is on you.

What are you trying to say? Are you saying bad race options should exist because nobody is forced to minmax? There is something missing to your argument or I don't understand it. There are no losers to having more good options.
I'm not forcing anyone to use BiS races and I don't encourage to always chase the meta either, but it is sad to see that every race EXCEPT ONE has one thing they are better at than all the others. Nobody and no existing build (not even offmeta) is getting hurt if Argonians get buffed to be in line with the rest when they are currently not. Unless you overdo it of course. Otherwise it's not going to change the amount of fun anyone is having for the worse, but it will definitely increase the fun for minmaxers and theorycrafters that like Argonians.

robertbmilesb14_ESO

Ratzkifal wrote: »

SkerKro wrote: »

Fallacy. If you have to min max and have try to force others to use the BiS races to get the overwhelming feeling to have any bit of fun that is on you.

What are you trying to say? Are you saying bad race options should exist because nobody is forced to minmax? There is something missing to your argument or I don't understand it. There are no losers to having more good options.
I'm not forcing anyone to use BiS races and I don't encourage to always chase the meta either, but it is sad to see that every race EXCEPT ONE has one thing they are better at than all the others. Nobody and no existing build (not even offmeta) is getting hurt if Argonians get buffed to be in line with the rest when they are currently not. Unless you overdo it of course. Otherwise it's not going to change the amount of fun anyone is having for the worse, but it will definitely increase the fun for minmaxers and theorycrafters that like Argonians.

"but it is sad to see that every race EXCEPT ONE has one thing they are better at than all the others"

Swimming

Though I think they could give some phys res to Arg Res and a small health rec to Life Mender *shrugs* wouldn't be too game breaking.

frozzzen101

Honestly, with new chapter ZoS might have realized 2% healing done is garbage stat and increased it to 4% healing done.
So that essentially means that Argonians have lost 1.5 set stat efficiency compared to other races. While other races were balanced around 5.5 set bonuses as racial passives and Argonian just lost 1.5 of it. That is assuming there aren't unreported changes to lizards on pts, which I doubt.

Call of the Undertaker – Heavy
2 – Adds 4% Healing Taken
3 – Adds 1206 Maximum Health
4 – Adds 4% Healing Done
5 – Adds 1206 Maximum Health
5 – When you deal damage with a Light Attack, you apply Minor Lifesteal to your enemy for 8 seconds, healing you and your allies for 600 Health every 1 second when damaging them. This effect can occur once every 8 seconds.

Senche-raht’s Grit
2 – Adds 4% Healing Done
3 – Adds 1206 Maximum Health
4 – Adds 4% Healing Taken
5 – After being damaged by a damage over time ability, increase your Healing Received by 6% and your Physical and Spell Resistance by 2585 for 3 seconds.

I'm fairly certain I've seen PTS Earthgore screenshot with 4% healing done as well

So no, their passives aren't fine, they are underperforming in practice and mathematically. If you want to balance it properly, return 5% healing done + 5% healing taken, and on top of it add 1000 mag stam or hp. Then they would be in line withother races given ZoS paradigm shift regarding 2% healing done as a stat.

Ratzkifal

robertbmilesb14_ESO wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

SkerKro wrote: »

Fallacy. If you have to min max and have try to force others to use the BiS races to get the overwhelming feeling to have any bit of fun that is on you.

What are you trying to say? Are you saying bad race options should exist because nobody is forced to minmax? There is something missing to your argument or I don't understand it. There are no losers to having more good options.
I'm not forcing anyone to use BiS races and I don't encourage to always chase the meta either, but it is sad to see that every race EXCEPT ONE has one thing they are better at than all the others. Nobody and no existing build (not even offmeta) is getting hurt if Argonians get buffed to be in line with the rest when they are currently not. Unless you overdo it of course. Otherwise it's not going to change the amount of fun anyone is having for the worse, but it will definitely increase the fun for minmaxers and theorycrafters that like Argonians.

"but it is sad to see that every race EXCEPT ONE has one thing they are better at than all the others"

Swimming

Though I think they could give some phys res to Arg Res and a small health rec to Life Mender *shrugs* wouldn't be too game breaking.

Fair enough. They are the best swimmers. And if swimming was a more universal thing, then I'd shut up now. It would be a huge deal in underwater combat (which ZOS said will unfortunately never happen because of the technicallities). But yeah, if we count swimming in the current game, then even cosmetic differences matter. Argonians are the best at being lizards

zaria

Aliyavana wrote: »

As a dunmer, i need to state that argonians dont need buffs

Yes, an small buff, Bosmer and Khajiit need an smaller one.
Problem with Bosmer and Argonian is not making them OP in PvP.

Silver_Strider

Can a Naga-kur get some Stamina please?
All this lore about Guerilla Fighters and Assassins but absolutely nothing Stamina related at all apart from the tri-stat pot effect? That's bs.

Even if Argonian was to get 1k Stamina, it wouldn't make them any better overall. More versatile maybe but apart from some Hybrid potential, it wouldn't be any better than it currently is.

Barring that, I'd settle for 1500 Magic.

Runkorko

Argonian have the best sustain in the game.
Healing done increase, and imune do disease effects/ imune to healing reduction.
Wont mention hp boost and 2 resists.
What you want more ?

Ratzkifal

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

Argonian have the best sustain in the game.
Healing done increase, and imune do disease effects/ imune to healing reduction.
Wont mention hp boost and 2 resists.
What you want more ?

@runkorkoeb17_ESO Argonians do not have the best sustain in the game. Even Imperials have better sustain than Argonians and Imperials are behind Bretons (magicka) and Redguard/Bosmer at stamina. Argonians only have better sustain than Altmer, Dunmer, Orc and Khajiit, who have way superior damage (and healing).
They also aren't immune to healing reduction, just the disease status effect. Major defile from other sources applies as regular.
About their 2 resists, they lost one for no good reason. The lore and even the quests in ESO clearly state that Argonians are resistant to poison and disease, but on the live server they are only resistant to disease and not poison.

Source https://youtube.com/watch?v=itv5SAZZxXA

SydneyGrey

They were over-nerfed and need to be brought back up a little bit.

Silver_Strider

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

Argonian have the best sustain in the game.
Healing done increase, and imune do disease effects/ imune to healing reduction.
Wont mention hp boost and 2 resists.
What you want more ?

If this was pre-Wrathstone, you might have had a point but since its not, let me destroy inform you that this is no longer the case.

Argonian has 1 resistance now, which is to Disease Damage. We lost Poison Resistance entirely and with it Poison Immunity. "Immune" to Defile is only true when talking about Disease Damage since skills such as Reverb, Soul Harvest, etc can and will still Defile an Argonian much like any other race. Our sustain also took a hit by going from 4600 per pot down to 4k per pot, while the sustain of some races, such as Breton and Imperial got boosted to such an extent, Argonian can no longer be considered the best sustain race in the game. Imperial can practically match Argonian sustain due to Red Diamond alone on top of having double their resources and providing more utility than Argonian could ever hope to match. Lastly, 6% Healing done (Lost Healing Received entirely for a 1% increase to healing done) is inferior to literally every other stat boosting effect in the game that the actual healing difference between a Breton with only a 1k magic difference will heal for roughly the same as an Argonian with the difference being less than 1k points of healing in Argonian's favor, but they STILL falls behind Dunmer or Altmer that also have more damage and better heal numbers than Argonian despite having a passive solely dedicated to healing.

There is literally nothing an Argonian can do atm that isn't totally overshadowed by another race.
Sustain? Imperial is better.
Tank? Nord AND Imperial are better.
Healer? Breton has better sustain and more magic, making it the better healer
DPS is a no go for either side of the spectrum.
PvP wise, they're nothing special either.

So no, being bad to meh in literally every area of the game is not fine.

Drako_Ei

I stopped playing my main character at this point, ZoS screwed the race

ESO_Nightingale

I have not fully checked out how the race is with math. But i think it would be nice if the healing done bonus was increased by another 2 or 3%. I could be wrong and its actually fine. But i just would like to see it a bit higher out of experience

sionIV

Ratzkifal wrote: »

SkerKro wrote: »

Fallacy. If you have to min max and have try to force others to use the BiS races to get the overwhelming feeling to have any bit of fun that is on you.

What are you trying to say? Are you saying bad race options should exist because nobody is forced to minmax? There is something missing to your argument or I don't understand it. There are no losers to having more good options.
I'm not forcing anyone to use BiS races and I don't encourage to always chase the meta either, but it is sad to see that every race EXCEPT ONE has one thing they are better at than all the others. Nobody and no existing build (not even offmeta) is getting hurt if Argonians get buffed to be in line with the rest when they are currently not. Unless you overdo it of course. Otherwise it's not going to change the amount of fun anyone is having for the worse, but it will definitely increase the fun for minmaxers and theorycrafters that like Argonians.

Is that so?

Bosmer
Imperial

Would you share what those two races do better than ALL the others? Argonians are one of the best races for PvP, which can't be said for the above two.

Runkorko

sionIV wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

SkerKro wrote: »

Fallacy. If you have to min max and have try to force others to use the BiS races to get the overwhelming feeling to have any bit of fun that is on you.

What are you trying to say? Are you saying bad race options should exist because nobody is forced to minmax? There is something missing to your argument or I don't understand it. There are no losers to having more good options.
I'm not forcing anyone to use BiS races and I don't encourage to always chase the meta either, but it is sad to see that every race EXCEPT ONE has one thing they are better at than all the others. Nobody and no existing build (not even offmeta) is getting hurt if Argonians get buffed to be in line with the rest when they are currently not. Unless you overdo it of course. Otherwise it's not going to change the amount of fun anyone is having for the worse, but it will definitely increase the fun for minmaxers and theorycrafters that like Argonians.

Is that so?

Bosmer
Imperial

Would you share what those two races do better than ALL the others? Argonians are one of the best races for PvP, which can't be said for the above two.

-I agree for argonians. One of the best pvp races.
But i wont agree with you about bosmer and imperials.
In non cp imperial is a beast/ both magica and stamina builds.
Xtra hp + cost reduce /ultimate included/ + all 3 resource leech is not a small bonus.
Bosmer is more than viable for kite/range glass canon builds. With proper setups.

Runkorko

Ratzkifal wrote: »

@runkorkoeb17_ESO Argonians do not have the best sustain in the game.

Open your eyes and use your brain.

Dont link me pointless videos pls.

BahometZ

All I know is I race-changed my magplar healer main from Argonian to Breton and haven't looked back.

In my humble opinion Argonian is a roleplay race now. You either love them, and will use them regardless, or don't and won't.

BahometZ

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

@runkorkoeb17_ESO Argonians do not have the best sustain in the game.

Open your eyes and use your brain.

Dont link me pointless videos pls.

Argonian sustain is conditional and situational. You pop a potion to get a burst of sustain, which timed well can turn the tide in PvP, timed poorly you are handbag, belt and shoes. In PvE you need to pop potions on cooldown to see equivalent results.

Tbh I prefer Breton, don't have to micromanage, and I have more valuable resistances and higher resource pool. Plus, less ugly.

Tommy_The_Gun

HaruKamui wrote: »

current argonian passives are fine

Argonian:
- DPS: Literally the worst race for that role that there is in game.
- Healer: Worst magicka race for that role.
- Tank: 3 or 5th race for that role (outnatched by Nord, Imeprial and in certain scenarios by Orc and Redguard)
- PVP: No longer good since healing recived and poison immunity is gone and there are races that preform significantly better in PVP.

I would definetly not call it "fine".
Wood elves / Bosmers have the same problem - they dont have a use case.
Some ppl say: "You pick Argonian when you have trouble with sustain". That is equivalent of Saying "It is a noob race". And tbh. Argonians dont have best sustain in game (as explained in other posts here).

And speaking of healing bonus... :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRFMFgIaiSk
After doing the math (big credit to youtuber who did it) you can see how healing done works compare to spell dmg. In short, comparing 2% healing done gear set bonus to be on the same level as 129 spell dmg bonus, you would have to have 5000 spell dmg for that 2% to be effective.

I hope this will give you good idea on how Argonian's 6% healing done works compared to what Altmer or Dark Elf or Breton gets.

Runkorko

Following meta and min/maxers builds ?
Your problem.
The video you link, the same guy say / wont bother find the video for you/ " the diference berwen races / dps/ is like 2k.
Are 2k diference is so importand for you? To ask for a racial changes?
The same guy say that bosmer is second best dps race/ after dunmer.
Most of you who write here / if not all/ cant even hit 30k dps on dummies, but want race changes because argonians max dps is 68k and all other races can hit that sweet 70k?
Yeah right ....