Cyrodiil is a no skill zerg fest

Fawn4287

The real problem with pvp nowadays is the gradual move away from direct damage based and burst combo play style to ‘fire and forget’ dot builds. This damage style coupled with poisons, over performance of sword and board damage mitigation, severely over performing group heals and laggy servers makes these builds near impossible to kill. I can’t count how many perm block balorgh ulti dump dot builds running poisons and lingering health pots I see every time I play. With buffs to dk and nerfs to nightblade next update I predict the number of these characters will drastically increase forcing nearly everyone in to a similar high health, dot damage ulti dumping Play style. Do I continue to get laughed at by the builds or do i just do the same?

Metafae

If Cyrodiil is upsetting you so much, you might want to consider taking a break from PvP.

VaranisArano

Cyrodiil is an AvAvA zone, designed for groups of 2 to 24, and its gameplay consistently favors organized groups of any size - the larger the better.

There certainly are solo playstyles that work well in Cyrodiil, many of which use direct and burst damage vs isolated players or disorganized small groups, but complaining about the zone as a "no skill zerg fest" or the builds designed to survive that environment is sort of like conplaining that the ocean is wet. Yes? And...?

If you want guaranteed smaller fights, less impact from lag, less tanky builds, and no zergs, I'm going to recommend Battlegrounds. BGs have their own issues, to be sure! But at least they are different issues, and you won't have to deal with complaining about how PVP is designed to work in a AvAvA zone intended for large scale combat. BGs was made for the "I just wanna small scale, no zergs" crowd.

frostz417

Needs to be more ways to split Zergs. It’s too ridiculous how factions just stay balled up in 60-90 man groups and PvDoor the map down.

Iskiab

Group max size is 24. A good group of 24 can take larger numbers, you just have to get the good part down.

Think of AvA like pve trials, you wouldn’t complain that you can’t solo a trial would you? Adding more players past a certain point has diminishing returns too.

People make small group or solo pvp work, but don’t expect to take on 4 times your number.

Villaine

frostz417 wrote: »

Needs to be more ways to split Zergs. It’s too ridiculous how factions just stay balled up in 60-90 man groups and PvDoor the map down.

That is the way war works. Higher numbers generally equate to a higher chance of success.

Ahtu

Fawn4287 wrote: »

The real problem with pvp nowadays is the gradual move away from direct damage based and burst combo play style to ‘fire and forget’ dot builds. This damage style coupled with poisons, over performance of sword and board damage mitigation, severely over performing group heals and laggy servers makes these builds near impossible to kill. I can’t count how many perm block balorgh ulti dump dot builds running poisons and lingering health pots I see every time I play. With buffs to dk and nerfs to nightblade next update I predict the number of these characters will drastically increase forcing nearly everyone in to a similar high health, dot damage ulti dumping Play style. Do I continue to get laughed at by the builds or do i just do the same?

It sounds like you've already made up your mind. That being said, you will only see more zergs and tanky builds now and beyond. Also, zerging in and of itself is an art form and just because you're not 1vXing doesn't mean it requires no skill.

technohic

^LOL The fear is when the zergs actually develop skill. Theres some but theres a lot more of ones where you crash in, they scatter in a panic.

bulbousb16_ESO

Why do people think "zergs" are the best tactic? They're the easiest, and the dumbest, but not the most effective.

If you have one group of 24 going around smashing everything, and I have 3 groups of 8, then I should win, because I can do 3x as much as you can.

Gilvoth

we all have to build our own counter to what the enemies are doing presently so we stay alive.

Royaji

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Why do people think "zergs" are the best tactic? They're the easiest, and the dumbest, but not the most effective.

If you have one group of 24 going around smashing everything, and I have 3 groups of 8, then I should win, because I can do 3x as much as you can.

Well, because when it comes to taking keeps zerg's main weakness - mobility - is irrelevant. Taking a keep with 8 people takes so long that zerg has all the time to port to a nearby keep (or even in the keep you are trying to take) roll over your brave 8-man and go deal with another one while scratching their bum. At best your 3x8 can capture one keep at a time.

Or you could've just sent all 24 people to capture that one keep.

bulbousb16_ESO

Royaji wrote: »

Taking a keep with 8 people takes so long that zerg has all the time to port to a nearby keep (or even in the keep you are trying to take) roll over your brave 8-man and go deal with another one while scratching their bum.

Definitely a legitimate explanation - I'm just not so sure how this works in practice. Can a 24-man team take a keep that much faster than a 8-man team?

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Taking a keep with 8 people takes so long that zerg has all the time to port to a nearby keep (or even in the keep you are trying to take) roll over your brave 8-man and go deal with another one while scratching their bum.

Definitely a legitimate explanation - I'm just not so sure how this works in practice. Can a 24-man team take a keep that much faster than a 8-man team?

Yes due to rams and flag player caps

HalvarIronfist

Fawn4287 wrote: »

The real problem with pvp nowadays is the gradual move away from direct damage based and burst combo play style to ‘fire and forget’ dot builds. This damage style coupled with poisons, over performance of sword and board damage mitigation, severely over performing group heals and laggy servers makes these builds near impossible to kill. I can’t count how many perm block balorgh ulti dump dot builds running poisons and lingering health pots I see every time I play. With buffs to dk and nerfs to nightblade next update I predict the number of these characters will drastically increase forcing nearly everyone in to a similar high health, dot damage ulti dumping Play style. Do I continue to get laughed at by the builds or do i just do the same?

I... don't get it.. In a AvA zone.. Factions aren't supposed to have anything more than small squads, rather than armies?

War is hell, lag is hell, open world PVP can be hell. but it is what it is, and I don't see an issue with that. If you want more small scale, non cheese/spam warfare, try a BG. Players may actually use solo/small group centered builds!

Fawn4287

Iskiab wrote: »

Group max size is 24. A good group of 24 can take larger numbers, you just have to get the good part down.

Think of AvA like pve trials, you wouldn’t complain that you can’t solo a trial would you? Adding more players past a certain point has diminishing returns too.

People make small group or solo pvp work, but don’t expect to take on 4 times your number.

Solo queue battlegrounds and deal with over performing proc damage sets, premades with tanks healers running guard and the zoos the werewolves and magsorcs run. No thank you

Lycanx12

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Group max size is 24. A good group of 24 can take larger numbers, you just have to get the good part down.

Think of AvA like pve trials, you wouldn’t complain that you can’t solo a trial would you? Adding more players past a certain point has diminishing returns too.

People make small group or solo pvp work, but don’t expect to take on 4 times your number.

Solo queue battlegrounds and deal with over performing proc damage sets, premades with tanks healers running guard and the zoos the werewolves and magsorcs run. No thank you

Get a team and BG will be fine.

Durham

VaranisArano wrote: »

Cyrodiil is an AvAvA zone, designed for groups of 2 to 24, and its gameplay consistently favors organized groups of any size - the larger the better.

There certainly are solo playstyles that work well in Cyrodiil, many of which use direct and burst damage vs isolated players or disorganized small groups, but complaining about the zone as a "no skill zerg fest" or the builds designed to survive that environment is sort of like conplaining that the ocean is wet. Yes? And...?

If you want guaranteed smaller fights, less impact from lag, less tanky builds, and no zergs, I'm going to recommend Battlegrounds. BGs have their own issues, to be sure! But at least they are different issues, and you won't have to deal with complaining about how PVP is designed to work in a AvAvA zone intended for large scale combat. BGs was made for the "I just wanna small scale, no zergs" crowd.

There is absolutely no reason to run over 12 out in cyrodiil, unless your trying to carry people. Groups of 24+ spamming in a ball create latency that literally breaks the game. We run from 3 to 8 on most nights many of us have run in multiple large PVP guilds we have since left due to toxic chats and people just talking over each other just chaos. BG's are not an option for us #1 many in our guild hate non CP #2 we like the open play of Cyrodiil. ZOS needs to lower pop caps and group size needs to be 12 like the rest of the game. 12 man is much better to run in almost every situation and guilds could run multiple 12 mans but this would promote a spreading out effect and promote more strategy on entire map.

Im not against large scale zergs Im against 24+ people balling up and creating latency that create unbreakable CC and the combat bug for 30 minutes, and abilities not working. ZOS healing creates these balls and I understand this ... I just wish these larger guilds acknowledge the lag .Maybe they can run 24 on diffent parts of the map.. I would love to see ZOS take groups down to 12 because my god thats really all you need. We easily take keeps with 8 that are defended lightly and we can hold off much larger groups in resorces but when a group of 48 in a ball shows up everthting freezes up on our side our bars grey out.. CC is unbreakable we have a hard time spreading due to lag no because of the skill of game play of the other group.

If we could just promote the spreading out of the zergs lag would decrease and we would have much more healthy game. People would not come into PVP and go "MY GOD HOW DO YOU PEOPLE PLAY IN THIS" Large siege battles with tons of people and siege is very fun and exciting game play and would attract a ton of people back to PVP . But when lag comes its not fun at all for anyone !

Its ZOS's responsiability to fix this. They have tried by creating abilities to do it. However they have failed to achieve the results they wanted. They need to make structural changes if they do not PVP will continue to die not because of ZERGS but because of performace.

kpittsniperb14_ESO

Durham wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Cyrodiil is an AvAvA zone, designed for groups of 2 to 24, and its gameplay consistently favors organized groups of any size - the larger the better.

There certainly are solo playstyles that work well in Cyrodiil, many of which use direct and burst damage vs isolated players or disorganized small groups, but complaining about the zone as a "no skill zerg fest" or the builds designed to survive that environment is sort of like conplaining that the ocean is wet. Yes? And...?

If you want guaranteed smaller fights, less impact from lag, less tanky builds, and no zergs, I'm going to recommend Battlegrounds. BGs have their own issues, to be sure! But at least they are different issues, and you won't have to deal with complaining about how PVP is designed to work in a AvAvA zone intended for large scale combat. BGs was made for the "I just wanna small scale, no zergs" crowd.

There is absolutely no reason to run over 12 out in cyrodiil, unless your trying to carry people. Groups of 24+ spamming in a ball create latency that literally breaks the game. We run from 3 to 8 on most nights many of us have run in multiple large PVP guilds we have since left due to toxic chats and people just talking over each other just chaos. BG's are not an option for us #1 many in our guild hate non CP #2 we like the open play of Cyrodiil. ZOS needs to lower pop caps and group size needs to be 12 like the rest of the game. 12 man is much better to run in almost every situation and guilds could run multiple 12 mans but this would promote a spreading out effect and promote more strategy on entire map.

Im not against large scale zergs Im against 24+ people balling up and creating latency that create unbreakable CC and the combat bug for 30 minutes, and abilities not working. ZOS healing creates these balls and I understand this ... I just wish these larger guilds acknowledge the lag .Maybe they can run 24 on diffent parts of the map.. I would love to see ZOS take groups down to 12 because my god thats really all you need. We easily take keeps with 8 that are defended lightly and we can hold off much larger groups in resorces but when a group of 48 in a ball shows up everthting freezes up on our side our bars grey out.. CC is unbreakable we have a hard time spreading due to lag no because of the skill of game play of the other group.

If we could just promote the spreading out of the zergs lag would decrease and we would have much more healthy game. People would not come into PVP and go "MY GOD HOW DO YOU PEOPLE PLAY IN THIS" Large siege battles with tons of people and siege is very fun and exciting game play and would attract a ton of people back to PVP . But when lag comes its not fun at all for anyone !

Its ZOS's responsiability to fix this. They have tried by creating abilities to do it. However they have failed to achieve the results they wanted. They need to make structural changes if they do not PVP will continue to die not because of ZERGS but because of performace.

ZOS raising the floor and lowering the ceiling since 2015, enjoy.

Durham

HalvarIronfist wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

The real problem with pvp nowadays is the gradual move away from direct damage based and burst combo play style to ‘fire and forget’ dot builds. This damage style coupled with poisons, over performance of sword and board damage mitigation, severely over performing group heals and laggy servers makes these builds near impossible to kill. I can’t count how many perm block balorgh ulti dump dot builds running poisons and lingering health pots I see every time I play. With buffs to dk and nerfs to nightblade next update I predict the number of these characters will drastically increase forcing nearly everyone in to a similar high health, dot damage ulti dumping Play style. Do I continue to get laughed at by the builds or do i just do the same?

I... don't get it.. In a AvA zone.. Factions aren't supposed to have anything more than small squads, rather than armies?

War is hell, lag is hell, open world PVP can be hell. but it is what it is, and I don't see an issue with that. If you want more small scale, non cheese/spam warfare, try a BG. Players may actually use solo/small group centered builds!

The problem unfortonately the server cant handle really large ball groups. Guilds stacking 2 24 man groups create gameplay with latency so high its unplayable. Every night Im in situations where I cant switch weapons, bars greyed out, and perma combat bug and a whole host of other bugs. I wish we could keep the large scale battles but make grouping a little different to promote more of an evenly dispersed battlefield. Limit squad size to 12 which is a good number. You can still run 24 or even 48 but do it in multiples of 12 hopefully this would promote less excessive balling ...

idk

VaranisArano wrote: »

Cyrodiil is an AvAvA zone, designed for groups of 2 to 24, and its gameplay consistently favors organized groups of any size - the larger the better.

This. However, solid leadership with a group that listens can pull off amazing things but this works better in small groups. So the better organized they are the better the group is

Durham

Royaji wrote: »

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Why do people think "zergs" are the best tactic? They're the easiest, and the dumbest, but not the most effective.

If you have one group of 24 going around smashing everything, and I have 3 groups of 8, then I should win, because I can do 3x as much as you can.

Well, because when it comes to taking keeps zerg's main weakness - mobility - is irrelevant. Taking a keep with 8 people takes so long that zerg has all the time to port to a nearby keep (or even in the keep you are trying to take) roll over your brave 8-man and go deal with another one while scratching their bum. At best your 3x8 can capture one keep at a time.

Or you could've just sent all 24 people to capture that one keep.

I know of several of these 8 mans or 12 mans that destroy 24 man setup.. We run 8 on many nights we take DRAKE everynight .

idk wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Cyrodiil is an AvAvA zone, designed for groups of 2 to 24, and its gameplay consistently favors organized groups of any size - the larger the better.

This. However, solid leadership with a group that listens can pull off amazing things but this works better in small groups. So the better organized they are the better the group is

So true .. I have seen some amazing play from 8 to 12 mans that play togther and have no one that is being carried along for the AP ...

Palidon

Cyrodiil has been a Zerg fest for a long time get use to it.

Durham

Palidon wrote: »

Cyrodiil has been a Zerg fest for a long time get use to it.

More like LAG fest I guess thats ok to get use to also! Before long the zergs will be gone because so will Cyrodiil as population continues to decline due to performance....

HalvarIronfist

Well crikey, mate. Maybe you should try maining under 50 Kyne and battlegrounds.

Durham wrote: »

HalvarIronfist wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

The real problem with pvp nowadays is the gradual move away from direct damage based and burst combo play style to ‘fire and forget’ dot builds. This damage style coupled with poisons, over performance of sword and board damage mitigation, severely over performing group heals and laggy servers makes these builds near impossible to kill. I can’t count how many perm block balorgh ulti dump dot builds running poisons and lingering health pots I see every time I play. With buffs to dk and nerfs to nightblade next update I predict the number of these characters will drastically increase forcing nearly everyone in to a similar high health, dot damage ulti dumping Play style. Do I continue to get laughed at by the builds or do i just do the same?

I... don't get it.. In a AvA zone.. Factions aren't supposed to have anything more than small squads, rather than armies?

War is hell, lag is hell, open world PVP can be hell. but it is what it is, and I don't see an issue with that. If you want more small scale, non cheese/spam warfare, try a BG. Players may actually use solo/small group centered builds!

The problem unfortonately the server cant handle really large ball groups. Guilds stacking 2 24 man groups create gameplay with latency so high its unplayable. Every night Im in situations where I cant switch weapons, bars greyed out, and perma combat bug and a whole host of other bugs. I wish we could keep the large scale battles but make grouping a little different to promote more of an evenly dispersed battlefield. Limit squad size to 12 which is a good number. You can still run 24 or even 48 but do it in multiples of 12 hopefully this would promote less excessive balling ...

Well, the server's issues aren't the players fault. While guilds/otherwise can run large groups, that's something you acknowledge is going to happen when you go to Cyro. Is the lag in large battles? Of course. Does that stop large battles, or large groups? No. Do the servers need work to improve performance in large battles? Yeah.

I get the original idea, ask for smaller groups to reduce lag, but that's just not realistic. People aren't going to shift from what they enjoy just to fix an issue that isn't on their end to begin with.

VaranisArano

Durham wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Cyrodiil is an AvAvA zone, designed for groups of 2 to 24, and its gameplay consistently favors organized groups of any size - the larger the better.

There certainly are solo playstyles that work well in Cyrodiil, many of which use direct and burst damage vs isolated players or disorganized small groups, but complaining about the zone as a "no skill zerg fest" or the builds designed to survive that environment is sort of like conplaining that the ocean is wet. Yes? And...?

If you want guaranteed smaller fights, less impact from lag, less tanky builds, and no zergs, I'm going to recommend Battlegrounds. BGs have their own issues, to be sure! But at least they are different issues, and you won't have to deal with complaining about how PVP is designed to work in a AvAvA zone intended for large scale combat. BGs was made for the "I just wanna small scale, no zergs" crowd.

There is absolutely no reason to run over 12 out in cyrodiil, unless your trying to carry people. Groups of 24+ spamming in a ball create latency that literally breaks the game. We run from 3 to 8 on most nights many of us have run in multiple large PVP guilds we have since left due to toxic chats and people just talking over each other just chaos. BG's are not an option for us #1 many in our guild hate non CP #2 we like the open play of Cyrodiil. ZOS needs to lower pop caps and group size needs to be 12 like the rest of the game. 12 man is much better to run in almost every situation and guilds could run multiple 12 mans but this would promote a spreading out effect and promote more strategy on entire map.

Im not against large scale zergs Im against 24+ people balling up and creating latency that create unbreakable CC and the combat bug for 30 minutes, and abilities not working. ZOS healing creates these balls and I understand this ... I just wish these larger guilds acknowledge the lag .Maybe they can run 24 on diffent parts of the map.. I would love to see ZOS take groups down to 12 because my god thats really all you need. We easily take keeps with 8 that are defended lightly and we can hold off much larger groups in resorces but when a group of 48 in a ball shows up everthting freezes up on our side our bars grey out.. CC is unbreakable we have a hard time spreading due to lag no because of the skill of game play of the other group.

If we could just promote the spreading out of the zergs lag would decrease and we would have much more healthy game. People would not come into PVP and go "MY GOD HOW DO YOU PEOPLE PLAY IN THIS" Large siege battles with tons of people and siege is very fun and exciting game play and would attract a ton of people back to PVP . But when lag comes its not fun at all for anyone !

Its ZOS's responsiability to fix this. They have tried by creating abilities to do it. However they have failed to achieve the results they wanted. They need to make structural changes if they do not PVP will continue to die not because of ZERGS but because of performace.

As long as larger organized raids perform better in combat than everyone else - and 12 to 24 players do perform better, if they are organized and practice together - they are the meta for Cyrodiil.

And yeah, that means its ZOS' responsibility to do one of two things.
1. Fix the lag so we can all play how we want, large raids included.
2. Change the group size so large organized raids can't play (but this won't stop the organic formation of zergs and faction stacks.)

Players arent going to stop using a very effective tactic on their own.

Silverhand2156

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Why do people think "zergs" are the best tactic? They're the easiest, and the dumbest, but not the most effective.

If you have one group of 24 going around smashing everything, and I have 3 groups of 8, then I should win, because I can do 3x as much as you can.

That's where a good leader comes into play

A zerg is only as effective as the orders they are given,and how much the leader makes their orders heard.

That's why there are leaders and zerg group tags that are known over others in Cyrodiil,because they get things done better than others

Durham

VaranisArano wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Cyrodiil is an AvAvA zone, designed for groups of 2 to 24, and its gameplay consistently favors organized groups of any size - the larger the better.

There certainly are solo playstyles that work well in Cyrodiil, many of which use direct and burst damage vs isolated players or disorganized small groups, but complaining about the zone as a "no skill zerg fest" or the builds designed to survive that environment is sort of like conplaining that the ocean is wet. Yes? And...?

If you want guaranteed smaller fights, less impact from lag, less tanky builds, and no zergs, I'm going to recommend Battlegrounds. BGs have their own issues, to be sure! But at least they are different issues, and you won't have to deal with complaining about how PVP is designed to work in a AvAvA zone intended for large scale combat. BGs was made for the "I just wanna small scale, no zergs" crowd.

There is absolutely no reason to run over 12 out in cyrodiil, unless your trying to carry people. Groups of 24+ spamming in a ball create latency that literally breaks the game. We run from 3 to 8 on most nights many of us have run in multiple large PVP guilds we have since left due to toxic chats and people just talking over each other just chaos. BG's are not an option for us #1 many in our guild hate non CP #2 we like the open play of Cyrodiil. ZOS needs to lower pop caps and group size needs to be 12 like the rest of the game. 12 man is much better to run in almost every situation and guilds could run multiple 12 mans but this would promote a spreading out effect and promote more strategy on entire map.

Im not against large scale zergs Im against 24+ people balling up and creating latency that create unbreakable CC and the combat bug for 30 minutes, and abilities not working. ZOS healing creates these balls and I understand this ... I just wish these larger guilds acknowledge the lag .Maybe they can run 24 on diffent parts of the map.. I would love to see ZOS take groups down to 12 because my god thats really all you need. We easily take keeps with 8 that are defended lightly and we can hold off much larger groups in resorces but when a group of 48 in a ball shows up everthting freezes up on our side our bars grey out.. CC is unbreakable we have a hard time spreading due to lag no because of the skill of game play of the other group.

If we could just promote the spreading out of the zergs lag would decrease and we would have much more healthy game. People would not come into PVP and go "MY GOD HOW DO YOU PEOPLE PLAY IN THIS" Large siege battles with tons of people and siege is very fun and exciting game play and would attract a ton of people back to PVP . But when lag comes its not fun at all for anyone !

Its ZOS's responsiability to fix this. They have tried by creating abilities to do it. However they have failed to achieve the results they wanted. They need to make structural changes if they do not PVP will continue to die not because of ZERGS but because of performace.

As long as larger organized raids perform better in combat than everyone else - and 12 to 24 players do perform better, if they are organized and practice together - they are the meta for Cyrodiil.

And yeah, that means its ZOS' responsibility to do one of two things.
1. Fix the lag so we can all play how we want, large raids included.
2. Change the group size so large organized raids can't play (but this won't stop the organic formation of zergs and faction stacks.)

Players arent going to stop using a very effective tactic on their own.

Yes I stated its ZoS's resposibility, and I do agree players are not going to stop stacking. However because of this behavior there is no future of PVP in this game. The population continues to decline #1 issue is performance. I dont care about zergs I like this part of the game. I played DAOC the grandfather of PVP in this game. Zergs are healthy part of the AVAVA climate it helps new pvp'ers get use to the gameplay and helps them with the learning curve.

I just wish ZOS could do something about balling and spamming but the way healing works balling will always be a really effective tatic. In DAOC balling was the worst tactic because healing was group centered. CC was group based ...standing in a group was the worst thing you could do this forced the battlefield to be much larger area of fighting.

Iskiab

At the end of the day, group size max is 24 for a reason - pvp.

zyk

Iskiab wrote: »

At the end of the day, group size max is 24 for a reason - pvp.

24 player groups may have made sense when the population cap was estimated to be 450+ per faction, but not at what many players to consider to be the current cap at approximately 150 per faction.

16% of an entire faction in one group is a problem in a game that *needs* players to spread out. Plus it's easier for the faction stack guilds to coordinate 3-4 groups than it would be to coordinate 6-8 12 player groups.