Is it me or is DK falling behind in the "balance" game?

msalvia

I preface this by saying I play all the roles, all the classes, and I objectively am seeing that DKs--unlike literally every other class--has one viable role: tanking.

I sure can't get into any kind of end-game content with a DK dps (mag or stam), or with a DK healer. However, every other class at least has some role flexibility--Wardens make decent tanks and healers; NBs are ok tanks and healers, excellent dps; Templars are awesome healers and magdps; sorcerers are great magdps but can tank and heal well.

But DKs? If you're not tanking, nobody wants you.

Isn't that kind of counter to the intended goal and making all classes viable for all roles?

And yeah, I know that DK dps and healers CAN work in less rigorous groups and content, but there is clearly a balance issue when DK dps get laughed out of vet trial groups for briniging subpar dps and no group utility to the table. Maybe we can get some kind of unique or interesting group buff?

Danksta

If you find a casual raiding group they'll let you bring whatever you want and you might still have fun. Who knows?

ccmedaddy

DKs already have a unique group buff and it's called minor brutality. What DKs need is just a straight-up DPS boost so that 1)magDKs do as much DPS as the stam counterparts and 2) stamDK can compete with stamdens and stamNBs. This shouldn't be that hard to accomplish but ZOS has been reluctant to do it for some reason.

Davadin

msalvia wrote: »

I sure can't get into any kind of end-game content with a DK dps (mag or stam), or with a DK healer.
...
But DKs? If you're not tanking, nobody wants you.

ok hang on, bud.

I agree with you, yes. DK is unwanted. Just check out the other thread right on this forum.

but "CAN'T" get into any kind of end-game content?

No.

We CAN.

We're just undesirable because other class can do better in any role.

But oh we can.

Stx

DKs dont have it any worse than the other base classes. Even if zos says they want every class to be able to perform every role, it's pretty obvious that every class was meant for a specific role... DKs tank toolkit is unmatched. Templars healer kit is unmatched, and nightblades have excellent dps skills and passives. I dont know much about sorcs.

What I do know is you can complete the toughest content in the game playing any role you want as any race and any class.

Coming from someone who mains a templar and enjoys tanking... yeah it pisses me off that DKs get handed EVERY tool required to perform the tank role in their class kit... but that's just how the game is.

John_Falstaff

ccmedaddy wrote: »

DKs already have a unique group buff and it's called minor brutality. What DKs need is just a straight-up DPS boost so that 1)magDKs do as much DPS as the stam counterparts and 2) stamDK can compete with stamdens and stamNBs. This shouldn't be that hard to accomplish but ZOS has been reluctant to do it for some reason.

The issue with Minor Brutality is that stamDK can't easily give it to the group, not without resorting to Igneous Weapons / Molten Armaments, which will just sacrifice even more damage. And the fact that DKs are so prominent as tanks means that Brutality will be there from tank anyway.

Xvorg

Stx wrote: »

DKs dont have it any worse than the other base classes. Even if zos says they want every class to be able to perform every role, it's pretty obvious that every class was meant for a specific role... DKs tank toolkit is unmatched. Templars healer kit is unmatched, and nightblades have excellent dps skills and passives. I dont know much about sorcs.

What I do know is you can complete the toughest content in the game playing any role you want as any race and any class.

Coming from someone who mains a templar and enjoys tanking... yeah it pisses me off that DKs get handed EVERY tool required to perform the tank role in their class kit... but that's just how the game is.

hmmm Necros are way better tanks as wardens used to be.

Hanokihs

Recently dusted off a magDK I was using as a combo fire sorcerer/healer a year or two ago, and pretty much every ability I had on her was basically useless. I may as well have been flinging wet tissue paper at my enemies, and died just.... constantly. I'm also not sure why she was a vampire. Resource regen? Either way, she's a mess.

So I agree, DK has been hit pretty hard for anything but tanking, and even then, lots of people just seem to like Wardens better.

Dragneel1207

wardens are like dks with burst
Dks need some dps boost. mainly stam

JumpmanLane

Hanokihs wrote: »

Recently dusted off a magDK I was using as a combo fire sorcerer/healer a year or two ago, and pretty much every ability I had on her was basically useless. I may as well have been flinging wet tissue paper at my enemies, and died just.... constantly. I'm also not sure why she was a vampire. Resource regen? Either way, she's a mess.

So I agree, DK has been hit pretty hard for anything but tanking, and even then, lots of people just seem to like Wardens better.

She was vamp 2 years ago for snare removal no doubt.

Runefang

I think you'll find most progression guilds just want competent players who don't die to mechanics and pull decent DPS. Really top end score pushers are the ones who want the best dps classes.

That said vCR and vAS progression is typically out of reach for DK dps since you can't do even remotely good dps at range.

Zacuel

Pretty much. Sometimes im tempted into speccing my do into a tank just to get the vet endgame content done. But it feels like selling out. I made and mained my dk for dps (I didn't know any better when I made him) and stubbornly stuck it out this long.

I can solo dps test at 35k. Personal best. But as mentioned before compared to other classes that's pretty laughable.

sionIV

Davadin wrote: »

msalvia wrote: »

I sure can't get into any kind of end-game content with a DK dps (mag or stam), or with a DK healer.
...
But DKs? If you're not tanking, nobody wants you.

ok hang on, bud.

I agree with you, yes. DK is unwanted. Just check out the other thread right on this forum.

but "CAN'T" get into any kind of end-game content?

No.

We CAN.

We're just undesirable because other class can do better in any role.

But oh we can.

Which class is better at tanking?

juhislihis19

Yes, especially sDK.

Wings got nerfed because some magDK's were able to "spam" wings. So this hurts stamDKs as well.

Fact is, ZOS don't care at all about DK's. All the "buffs" they get, are fixes 2-3 years too late (Obnoxious Breath) or straight up spit on your face (1.2seconds on Magma Armor, whoop dee friggin doo).

2 stamina morphs from 15 skills tells you everything you need to know about ZOS caring.

Mr_Nobody

DKs still got alot to fall to reach Templar level, lol

Runefang

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

DKs still got alot to fall to reach Templar level, lol

You might mean in PvP? Because in PvE they're 2nd best Magicka DPS too. The Stamplar is lack luster though.

Vapirko

Have you tested on PTS? They should have gotten a DPS boost.

MaxJrFTW

DKs just got several major buffs. Only necromancers are pulling higher dps on the pts.

technohic

Yeah is this counting the buffs on PTS? I feel like the buffs go unnoticed while the focus is on wings which 50% ranged damage reduction seems twice as good as the major evasion on shuffle for abilities that give root snare immunity

robpr

No matter how they buff DKs damage, if it falls behind stamblades, then everybody will shoon DK dds because all their group benefits are provided by the tank.
mDK engulfing flames - tank can freely provide.
minor brutality - tank uses often Obsidian Shield
sDK breath major fracture - pierce armor.
Bad sustain isn't helping either

Either buff the numbers through the roof to stamdens and stamblades level or give some unique buffs to DD abilities tank would have problem to provide, like moving 10% extra fire damage to Eruption and 10% poison damage to poison claws.

vesselwiththepestle

Regarding PTS changes I don't expect them to go live like that. After all the effort by ZOS to invalidate DOT attacks as spamamble I can't imagine them making a cone aoe dot attack the best spammable for one class.

Minor Brutality should be bound to using an Ardent Flame ability, making it natural to DK DPS so provide the buff. Alternatively at least one Earthen Heart would have to be changed to make it worthwhile for DK DPS. Perfect candidate would be Molten Armaments, which is supposed to be a buff and would even help with sustain, but isn't providing a useful buff since the end of the heavy attack rota. Additionally the Stamina aspect of "World in Ruin" is still ridiculous. The two or three poison abilities typically used by Stam DKs aren't that expensive anyway and we normally would already have a sustain related passive in Earthen Heart with Helping Hands. It's just useless to sDK dps because Earthen Heart abilities are useless. I'd just prefer a buff to all poison damage in "World in Ruin".

Also I'd appreciate more item sets fitting to a Stam DK. ZOS tried so hard to make poison damage the focus of Stam DK, so what about a new monster set dealing poison damage? So far in the whole game there is only one monster set dealing poison damage and it is from the base game, just think how many flame damage dealing monster sets are out there. If ZOS wants Stam DK to be Poison DK then give us please the possibilty to do so!

MartiniDaniels

technohic wrote: »

Yeah is this counting the buffs on PTS? I feel like the buffs go unnoticed while the focus is on wings which 50% ranged damage reduction seems twice as good as the major evasion on shuffle for abilities that give root snare immunity

Shuffle, blade cloak etc duration of aoe damage reduction 15 seconds+
New "wings" duration of 50% damage from projectiles - 6 seconds. Feel the difference. If it was 15 seconds all DKs will be dancing pre-ordering elsweyr.

Minno

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Yeah is this counting the buffs on PTS? I feel like the buffs go unnoticed while the focus is on wings which 50% ranged damage reduction seems twice as good as the major evasion on shuffle for abilities that give root snare immunity

Shuffle, blade cloak etc duration of aoe damage reduction 15 seconds+
New "wings" duration of 50% damage from projectiles - 6 seconds. Feel the difference. If it was 15 seconds all DKs will be dancing pre-ordering elsweyr.

Not at 50%. I guess it's good it isn't available for all classes like evaison was because that would have really made dark flare/javelin changes useless.

Davadin

sionIV wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

msalvia wrote: »

I sure can't get into any kind of end-game content with a DK dps (mag or stam), or with a DK healer.
...
But DKs? If you're not tanking, nobody wants you.

ok hang on, bud.

I agree with you, yes. DK is unwanted. Just check out the other thread right on this forum.

but "CAN'T" get into any kind of end-game content?

No.

We CAN.

We're just undesirable because other class can do better in any role.

But oh we can.

Which class is better at tanking?

the post I quoted says "if you're NOT tanking, nobody wants you.

so yes, if we tank, we're good. but i disagree if you say " (if we don't tank), we can't get into any kind of end-game".

I say we can. but everybody else can better (except tanking).

BUT..........


*ARGUABLY* Warden, and even Sorc are competitive tankers now.

SoLooney

Considering a dk dps is super lackluster and dk tanks already offer the support aka minor brutality and engulfing, unless they get some major buff, they're not gonna compete

Considering the fact that mag dks also have horrible sustain and stam dks have ok sustain

Grasshopper

SoLooney wrote: »

Considering a dk dps is super lackluster and dk tanks already offer the support aka minor brutality and engulfing, unless they get some major buff, they're not gonna compete

Considering the fact that mag dks also have horrible sustain and stam dks have ok sustain

I work with some of the higher end guilds, this will change next patch, on the pts we are hitting about 70k dps with magicka DK in pve. Your time to shine is soon

exeeter702

Stx wrote: »

DKs dont have it any worse than the other base classes. Even if zos says they want every class to be able to perform every role, it's pretty obvious that every class was meant for a specific role... DKs tank toolkit is unmatched. Templars healer kit is unmatched, and nightblades have excellent dps skills and passives. I dont know much about sorcs.

What I do know is you can complete the toughest content in the game playing any role you want as any race and any class.

Coming from someone who mains a templar and enjoys tanking... yeah it pisses me off that DKs get handed EVERY tool required to perform the tank role in their class kit... but that's just how the game is.

I would absolutely argue that statement. Aside from 1 additional synergy they can provide over nb and dk, there is nothing else thst makes them superior by default. Orbs vs shards are absolutely on par with equal pros and cons, res speed is a nice bonus sure, burst heals exist outside of bol and at least 2 are superior to bol. Aoe cleanse while very nice is not always needed in pve and in pvp non healer templars also run the ability. Hell the only thing that truly made templars the dominant healers through the games early life span were utility tools not even accociated with tje restoring light skill line.

Dks need a little love in the healing department in pvp. In pve 1 additional reliable group synergy would place them in a completely competitive and viable postion a healers. There are no lingering issues here with classes being conceived by design to only fufill a single role at the highest level, that is a grand misconception that has lingering for many years, one thst zos has slowly (and thankfully) over the last 2 1/2 years been rectifying.

Ragnarock41

ccmedaddy wrote: »

DKs already have a unique group buff and it's called minor brutality. What DKs need is just a straight-up DPS boost so that 1)magDKs do as much DPS as the stam counterparts and 2) stamDK can compete with stamdens and stamNBs. This shouldn't be that hard to accomplish but ZOS has been reluctant to do it for some reason.

Words of a person that so clearly does not play a Dk, stamDK has to go out of their standart rotation to provide minor brutality, yet a Dk tank can just spam igneous to provide it much more naturally.

Problem with stamDk is that half of their passives are gimmicks on poison abilities, like combustion or world in ruin, that does not give the class real damage or real sustain, Its no suprise that stamDKs used claws as a spammable, and now using noxious as a spammable, cause sustain is baaaad, unless you use a poison skill.

They could have just returned the stamina scaling to battle roar and changed WiR to be an actual dps passive like it was meant to be. But instead we got our 4th sustain passive. 4 sustain passives, yet still bad sustain.

Xvorg

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

DKs already have a unique group buff and it's called minor brutality. What DKs need is just a straight-up DPS boost so that 1)magDKs do as much DPS as the stam counterparts and 2) stamDK can compete with stamdens and stamNBs. This shouldn't be that hard to accomplish but ZOS has been reluctant to do it for some reason.

Words of a person that so clearly does not play a Dk, stamDK has to go out of their standart rotation to provide minor brutality, yet a Dk tank can just spam igneous to provide it much more naturally.

Problem with stamDk is that half of their passives are gimmicks on poison abilities, like combustion or world in ruin, that does not give the class real damage or real sustain, Its no suprise that stamDKs used claws as a spammable, and now using noxious as a spammable, cause sustain is baaaad, unless you use a poison skill.

They could have just returned the stamina scaling to battle roar and changed WiR to be an actual dps passive like it was meant to be. But instead we got our 4th sustain passive. 4 sustain passives, yet still bad sustain.

Evil genius logic xD

You can sustain, but you:

1- Have to use poison dmg skills, pray Akatosh to proc poison status.
2- Have to forget about using your ulti to kill enemies... no execute by the way, just return resources
3- Have to use magicka cost skills to get 990 stamina back...
4- Oh, here's a cost reduction to poison skills. Pretty useful for 6 skills in the whole game.
5- You still complaint? Remember you have Major Endurance on a bad heal, the same buff you get on a potion.

ccmedaddy

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

DKs already have a unique group buff and it's called minor brutality. What DKs need is just a straight-up DPS boost so that 1)magDKs do as much DPS as the stam counterparts and 2) stamDK can compete with stamdens and stamNBs. This shouldn't be that hard to accomplish but ZOS has been reluctant to do it for some reason.

Words of a person that so clearly does not play a Dk, stamDK has to go out of their standart rotation to provide minor brutality, yet a Dk tank can just spam igneous to provide it much more naturally.

Problem with stamDk is that half of their passives are gimmicks on poison abilities, like combustion or world in ruin, that does not give the class real damage or real sustain, Its no suprise that stamDKs used claws as a spammable, and now using noxious as a spammable, cause sustain is baaaad, unless you use a poison skill.

They could have just returned the stamina scaling to battle roar and changed WiR to be an actual dps passive like it was meant to be. But instead we got our 4th sustain passive. 4 sustain passives, yet still bad sustain.

Eh.. I was responding to OP's request that DKs get a unique group buff of their own and simply pointing out that DKs already have one.

I have 2 DKs and am well aware that stamDKs' PvE rotation doesn't proc it, but that is not an issue unique to stamDKs (stamsorcs, stamdens, and magdens also suffer from the same issue) nor is it one of the main reasons stamDKs are frowned upon in end-game raids. If stamDKs did as much dps as stamdens, no one would care what kind of buff they bring to the group.

Minalan

It's definitely you. Not the falling behind thing.

Did you read the patch notes, or were those crayons just too delicious?