anything about new players in non-dlc vet dungeons?

Sergykid

i pug non-dlc vets around 2 times almost daily. Some of the time i get into new players, under 160 CP, or just a bit above 160 CP. Now, i don't complain about them because non-dlc are carriable as i do it with such a party, but i want to address some problems that make the dungeon harder for them, not necessarily for the one who carries the group.

they don't use food (the ones 160 CP or a bit above) and some don't have mundus stone
they don't read chat, in case i give these tips or i offer to give food, and when some strategy is required (like break free in Direfrost Keep).
those who talk, say they come vet for "better items", from here can be taken these conclusions: they don't know that in a few levels these hard-earned "better items" will become weaker, and they don't know how to build around useful sets since they just use whatever item has higher current numbers.

those players under 160 CP that join veteran, gain no noticeable benefit. Makes them lose more time and real life energy, as they have lower survivability and dps, and the gear they farm will become obsolete. They also slow down the player that carries them.

my suggestion is obviously the already proposed which i sustain that non-dlc dungeons to have a 160 CP requirement, just like dlc ones have 300 CP requirement.
i also suggest for a red icon on the bottom of the screen, like the depleted enchant or broken armor ones, that will turn on since 160 CP (or why not, earlier) and be by default active while you are not using a food or drink of appropriate level. Of course, could be turned on/off from the menu just like the weapon/armor icons.

Sergykid

*bump*

this is still happening. Not like i expected an update or anything, but nobody cares about their problems? i see under 160 cp in vet dungeons like one in five runs, so it's pretty frequent. Every time i ask them they say for better items or experience, and when i tell them they answer me that they didn't know that normal has same exp and their gear will need to be updated at 160 cp.

MartiniDaniels

ZOS needs some kind of "Undaunted camp quests", where different mechanics and game nuances will be explained and shwon in practice. Creating new artificial limitations won't do any good. If player was clueless at CP40, he will be the same clueless at CP160 if he don't have somebody/something to teach them.

reprosal

Vet dungeons should be limited to CP160 and up. Plain and simple.

Sergykid

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

ZOS needs some kind of "Undaunted camp quests", where different mechanics and game nuances will be explained and shwon in practice. Creating new artificial limitations won't do any good. If player was clueless at CP40, he will be the same clueless at CP160 if he don't have somebody/something to teach them.

yes either CP 150 or 160 it's the same thing, BUT at 160 he can make use of the items dropped other than decon or vendor. He know he can now start using sets so can farm them. Joining at 150, has ltierally no use.

zvavi

Sergykid wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

ZOS needs some kind of "Undaunted camp quests", where different mechanics and game nuances will be explained and shwon in practice. Creating new artificial limitations won't do any good. If player was clueless at CP40, he will be the same clueless at CP160 if he don't have somebody/something to teach them.

yes either CP 150 or 160 it's the same thing, BUT at 160 he can make use of the items dropped other than decon or vendor. He know he can now start using sets so can farm them. Joining at 150, has ltierally no use.

Joining in 160 has no use either, upgrading from blue to purple (excluding jewelry) is super cheap

MartiniDaniels

reprosal wrote: »

Vet dungeons should be limited to CP160 and up. Plain and simple.

This is stupid limitation. Lvl 45 (cp810) toon in vet can do triple dps of average CP160 new player.

IonicKai

I never understood why the default for text chat was to hide it. It's so critical for communication and they turn it off by default. The user isn't even aware of it if they don't go digging through the settings (there should be a tutorial or a different default). As for the food most people don't think about consumables if they came from Skyrim or other non mmo games as they are not commonly required.

Gundug

How do you manage to get an under 50 character into a vet dungeon?

Chrysoprase

I don't know what the solution is, but this is definitely a problem. It's not the players' fault. They're doing their best with what they know and have. But there are a lot of dungeons that are simply not puggable unless everyone is familiar with it and knows what they're doing. Obviously DLC dungeons are the prime example of this, but the II dungeons are bad as well. I'm not sure that increasing the requirement will help because there will always be players who don't know what they're doing at any CP.

IonicKai

Chrysoprase wrote: »

I don't know what the solution is, but this is definitely a problem. It's not the players' fault. They're doing their best with what they know and have. But there are a lot of dungeons that are simply not puggable unless everyone is familiar with it and knows what they're doing. Obviously DLC dungeons are the prime example of this, but the II dungeons are bad as well. I'm not sure that increasing the requirement will help because there will always be players who don't know what they're doing at any CP.

Fact! I have seen 810s that don't know what a heavy attack is or how to get out of AoEs and do nothing but spam light attacks. CP more accurately measures cumulative playtime as it's easy to aquire without doing much. This game does need to make some strides to teach the player a little more as people stumble through content without a clue.

MartiniDaniels

Gundug wrote: »

How do you manage to get an under 50 character into a vet dungeon?

Oh, nevermind, I thought it opened at lvl 45.. still there are people who move from other megaservers and can be effective in low-cp. CP limitation 160 will bring nothing.

FierceSam

You have two issues here.

One is that ZOS provides almost no tutorial help for players and, level aside, there is no qualification to get into a vet dungeon. There already is a cap and it is 0CP. The solution to this is for ZOS to provide some kind of training tutorials like most other games. It is mad that players aren’t more clearly instructed in the benefits of food and how the armour progression works etc. It is double insane that there are no places in, say, the fighters guilds where players can actually learn/practice their skills. If ZOS don’t explain it as part of the game then it’s unrealistic to expect players to know it. And if something is so important, I shouldn’t have leave the game to get the information from *** YouTube

The second issue is that OP is wrong. There is significant benefit in ALL L50 players doing vet dungeons as this is how you obtain Undaunted passives. Doing nFG1 only gives you a certain amount of Undaunted points. Doing vFG1 can result in much higher Undaunted benefits. And if we’re always told by the forum warriors that normal is too easy, why not just start off on vet.

So it’s no surprise that new players who are constantly told that endgame is everything, or are just looking for Undaunted so they can do PvP, will show up in vet dungeons behaving like muppets. They are massively incentivised and incompetently educated and just assume that this is how it’s done.

Sergykid

never said i have any problem with the dungeons themselves, as i said i can carry them solo so i don't mind.

i care about those new players that lose their time and their team time to no benefit.

zvavi wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

ZOS needs some kind of "Undaunted camp quests", where different mechanics and game nuances will be explained and shwon in practice. Creating new artificial limitations won't do any good. If player was clueless at CP40, he will be the same clueless at CP160 if he don't have somebody/something to teach them.

yes either CP 150 or 160 it's the same thing, BUT at 160 he can make use of the items dropped other than decon or vendor. He know he can now start using sets so can farm them. Joining at 150, has ltierally no use.

Joining in 160 has no use either, upgrading from blue to purple (excluding jewelry) is super cheap

u can get monster helm, while they don't know what it is it's useful for them

FierceSam wrote: »

There is significant benefit in ALL L50 players doing vet dungeons as this is how you obtain Undaunted passives

what 100 points u may be missing from CP0 to CP160 are not a big deal, u actually may do faster two normals instead of one vet if u wanna farm undaunted before CP160.

IonicKai

FierceSam wrote: »

The second issue is that OP is wrong. There is significant benefit in ALL L50 players doing vet dungeons as this is how you obtain Undaunted passives. Doing nFG1 only gives you a certain amount of Undaunted points. Doing vFG1 can result in much higher Undaunted benefits.

This isn't quite the full picture. Leveling undaunted comes from in game achievements and dailies. The dailies pledges can be done on normal or vet though you only benefit from vet if you can do the hm and the XP is predictable. It's 10 points per daily (20 if you do vet hm). The achievements that are vet specific are mostly the following:
- complete vet
- hard mode
- no death run
- speed run

I think these are worth 40-60 undaunted points total and can only be completed once per character per dungeon. If you cannot do these things then running the normal pledges and the delve quest is far more efficient and I feel like those are the type of players the OP is referring to.

FrancisCrawford

Beyond character-level gates like those already in place, there's one other way to gate dungeon access that would be easy and helpful: Dungeon achievements.

In particular, I suggest that the game restrict Groupfinder vet dungeon access to characters who already have the "Vanquisher" (i.e. normal-mode) achievement for the same dungeon.

Kali_Despoine

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Gundug wrote: »

How do you manage to get an under 50 character into a vet dungeon?

Oh, nevermind, I thought it opened at lvl 45.. still there are people who move from other megaservers and can be effective in low-cp. CP limitation 160 will bring nothing.

45 opens undaunted dailies

Sergykid wrote: »

i pug non-dlc vets around 2 times almost daily.

I vPUG even the DLC. Sometimes you just have to kick but, I would rather teach some green boots the mechs of the dungeon
If I'm tank the undergrads are good.
If I'm DPS and have all 3 roles, they are good
If I'm healer and DPS is low, I forget I'm healer sometimes o.O

Kali_Despoine

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

I suggest that the game restrict Groupfinder vet dungeon access to characters who already have the "Vanquisher" (i.e. normal-mode) achievement for the same dungeon.

oh hells no. I level toons all the time. I would hate to have to do this
ib4 if your pther toons have it done

FrancisCrawford

Kali_Despoine wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

I suggest that the game restrict Groupfinder vet dungeon access to characters who already have the "Vanquisher" (i.e. normal-mode) achievement for the same dungeon.

oh hells no. I level toons all the time. I would hate to have to do this
ib4 if your pther toons have it done

How onerous would it be to do one normal run per dungeon per character?

Agenericname

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Kali_Despoine wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

I suggest that the game restrict Groupfinder vet dungeon access to characters who already have the "Vanquisher" (i.e. normal-mode) achievement for the same dungeon.

oh hells no. I level toons all the time. I would hate to have to do this
ib4 if your pther toons have it done

How onerous would it be to do one normal run per dungeon per character?

I'm not sure the benefit of doing a dungeon on normal would give a player what they need under these circumstances. In many cases normals are already a burnfest and the mechanics are trivialized long before they matter. New players really aren't getting much now, they certainly won't by forcing a bunch of high powered max CP players into normals who just want to blast through so they can go back to their game.

Sometimes we just need to be a little patience. We were all new at some point. People learn, they grow stronger (we hope), its healthy for the game.

kringled_1

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Kali_Despoine wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

I suggest that the game restrict Groupfinder vet dungeon access to characters who already have the "Vanquisher" (i.e. normal-mode) achievement for the same dungeon.

oh hells no. I level toons all the time. I would hate to have to do this
ib4 if your pther toons have it done

How onerous would it be to do one normal run per dungeon per character?

Theres 24 base game dungeons. At 20 minutes per run, that's 8 hours of time spent per character in trivially easy content, not even counting queue time. Most (maybe 75+%) of them are dungeons I don't need gear from, just the skill point and undaunted rank. That's a lot of additional time spent on uninteresting content.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Beyond character-level gates like those already in place, there's one other way to gate dungeon access that would be easy and helpful: Dungeon achievements.

In particular, I suggest that the game restrict Groupfinder vet dungeon access to characters who already have the "Vanquisher" (i.e. normal-mode) achievement for the same dungeon.

If we had account wide achievements, I would be fine with that, because clearing vet also gives that achievement. I have been playing since beta and I still havent run all the non-DLCs on normal, let alone the DLCs. They need to be there, but they are a faceroll for anyone that actually knows the game. As someone who runs vet groupfinder daily to level undaunted on his 17th toon, I reject the concept. The new toon grind is bad enough, no thanks on running every dungeon in normal one time.

Sergykid

Agenericname wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Kali_Despoine wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

I suggest that the game restrict Groupfinder vet dungeon access to characters who already have the "Vanquisher" (i.e. normal-mode) achievement for the same dungeon.

oh hells no. I level toons all the time. I would hate to have to do this
ib4 if your pther toons have it done

How onerous would it be to do one normal run per dungeon per character?

[...] Sometimes we just need to be a little patience. We were all new at some point. People learn, they grow stronger (we hope), its healthy for the game.

let's say u are at CP 24, go into a vet dungeon. What do you learn? You will just constantly die or barely do any damage, all you do is getting carried. This may not be a problem, but what do you gain from this? Gear will become obsolete soon enough, exp is the same as another faster activity, and if you aren't paying attention to mechanics you might even risk getting kicked.

zaria

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Beyond character-level gates like those already in place, there's one other way to gate dungeon access that would be easy and helpful: Dungeon achievements.

In particular, I suggest that the game restrict Groupfinder vet dungeon access to characters who already have the "Vanquisher" (i.e. normal-mode) achievement for the same dungeon.

Make this account bound, pretty pointless on an max cp necromancer.

kringled_1

Also, there's at least a couple of dungeons with optional bosses that are part of the vanquisher achievement. It's more than possible to have completed vetHM without getting vanquisher. (wayrest 1, for an example). It would be ridiculous to exclude someone from queuing for vet when they've finished HM in the past.

Agenericname

Sergykid wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Kali_Despoine wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

I suggest that the game restrict Groupfinder vet dungeon access to characters who already have the "Vanquisher" (i.e. normal-mode) achievement for the same dungeon.

oh hells no. I level toons all the time. I would hate to have to do this
ib4 if your pther toons have it done

How onerous would it be to do one normal run per dungeon per character?

[...] Sometimes we just need to be a little patience. We were all new at some point. People learn, they grow stronger (we hope), its healthy for the game.

let's say u are at CP 24, go into a vet dungeon. What do you learn? You will just constantly die or barely do any damage, all you do is getting carried. This may not be a problem, but what do you gain from this? Gear will become obsolete soon enough, exp is the same as another faster activity, and if you aren't paying attention to mechanics you might even risk getting kicked.

All of the exposure in the content is an opportunity to learn. When you first start vMA, you will more than likely constantly die. We learn from failure as well.

I'm well over 1k CP. What do I gain from dungeons? I've got all the gear I need. I don't know exactly how many keys I have, but its over 800 after spending hundreds on perfect traits and weights for shoulders. I've got all of the achievements except for a few of the slayer achievements. 9 of my 10 characters are Undaunted 10. Transmute crystals? Sure, but PvP is faster. If they reinstitute CP increases it will be well over a year before I need anymore EXP, so that's a non-issue. I do them because I enjoy them.

Realistically, its safe to say that they have more gain from them than I do.

What really separates me and a CP24 is performance. Sure, there are some "yeah, but low CP do better than high CP" arguments out there, but they're not very realistic. In most cases I am going to put out substantially more DPS than a CP24 and based off of red CP alone, I will have more survivability. That's what this is really about.

Is it enough? Not is it enough for me, is it enough to clear the content. I rolled the dice when I PUG, I am aware of the risks involved. I get what I get. I do not have that data. ZOS does. They've set the limits, I am fine with them. I'll take whatever the RDF throws at me, and if its important enough to me, then I'll get a group.