Kit Rework For Stamina Templar

Emasculate

This discussion is obviously my opinion on why the Stamina Templar needs a specific class rework and possibly Templar as a whole.

With certain changes in ESO overall and the development as a game after 5 years, the class needs to be changed, the build template is outdated with certain additions being added.
So from my understanding from the skills and abilities of Templar (specifically stamina). The class was designed to be a melee power house, with an AOE spammable ability such as Biting Jabs to cut down multiple targets (with a damage passive that proc's when using this ability) is where most of the upfront damage comes from on the class, combine these abilities with weapon skill lines such as duel wield or two-handed the class starts getting a bit more damage, and then last but not least the hardest hitting skill in the kit which is power of the light (which is an ability that builds up damage based on copied damage to the target). With all of these skills they are pretty fierce, however the class was designed poorly with certain mechanics built into the game engine such as AoE Caps (meaning that area of effect abilities damage starts gradually decreasing after a certain amount of targets are hit, specifically for PvP). I know that a class should not specifically be designed based off of PvE versus PvP however, with this it means the class is hindered in PvP and excels in PvE mob packs (repentance gives a lot of stamina back when a lot of enemies are slain, but sustain falls off in single target fights). The kit also includes an AoE Ultimate ability Radial Sweep in which you swing an Aedric spear around you (6m Radius) and deal damage to every enemy hit, with a morph that deals physical damage and reduces your damage for each enemy hit (another AoE ability). However again in PvP this skill is hindered from the AoE Cap. So taking in all of this information it appears to be clear that the class is really focused on outnumbered fighting, this is why the class needs to be reworked. Outnumbered fighting can still work, but against trained opponents this kit is destined to fail. Ever since the introduction of Major Evasion where you take less damage from AoE abilities by 25% the class has really suffered damage in PvP environments, where your main spammable ability does less damage then your passive Burning Light that is a RNG roll when trying to connect a channeled ability on moving targets (off-topic you also have to connect the last biting jab to snare the target which I do not agree with especially when almost every class has a snare that is instantly applied that doesn't require manually tracking a target). Hopefully I am getting through to the reader with a trend here, and we can start to understand a core problem.

Now hopefully I've made you realize a few potential problems with the class, but let's start taking this class and applying it to every situation that you may encounter while playing in the game we all love and enjoy. So as an avid player of ESO, I love to do all the content in the game so everything I am writing is really being applied to every aspect of the game not just applied to PvP. Templar class is really sought after in Trials, but lets talk about why. The real reason that Templar is sought after in Trials is really simple because of Power of the Light (due to the ability granting minor fracture, and minor breach, combine this ability and add in some of the strongest healing abilities in the game and magicka templar will be picked over stamina almost every time) the reason for this is because it is the only ability that applies these unique buffs. And as a goal of an end game trial group having every unique buff and de-buff in the game is warranted in order to reach the top possible score for raids burning down trial bosses so fast that you are capable of skipping the mechanics of the fight to reduce the chances of any one member losing their life in the trial. But to think that you have to be a stamina templar in order to achieve this feat is simply naive, stamina templar's aren't the sought after one and the ability to put Power of the Light on a magicka templar is very easy and is done quite frequently. In fact Stamina Templar's really aren't the greatest in PvE either really (not saying that my class should be the top of every other class, wink wink). The fact of the matter is, with the way the game is designed currently there are very few ways to achieve the highest potential DPS (Damage per second) in the game and I am sure we are all familiar with what the set ups are. But just to shine some light generally most stamina classes follow a bow duel wield build, taking advantage of Maelstrom Arena bow endless hail and caltrops, followed by a static rotation. And just to clarify this current patch nightblades really outshine any other class in this by a generous amount. Why should I be discussing this information? Well, I wanted the reader to get a generalized idea that most classes follow the same rotation so it is easy to compare to one another. Stamina Templar is lack luster in this simply for the fact that their spammable ability is a channeled ability in the simplest answer I can give. So if you think about it, to achieve the maximum damage of Biting Jabs you have to hit the target with every single jab, with a channeled time of 1.1 seconds you need to wait 1.1 seconds to do the full amount of damage. When you compare that to a class such as a stamina nightblade who's main spammable ability is Surprise attack which is an instant cast ability the damage starts to pull in favor of the class that can just instantly cast the ability. Now one could assume that stamina templar should easily being doing more damage then a stamina nightblade because of the passive Burning light being applied when a stamina templar uses their ability right? Of course, that would make sense but then you add a class execute onto nightblade, and it suddenly out damages a stamina templar by a marginal amount. (if you were curious about Jabs comparison to Surprise attack here is a screen shot of the skills being used 5 times on a 6m target dummy with 0 gear, same food, and same mundus, with similar CP, also note these tests were done on the PTS with the reduced time to Biting Jabs and the new Surprise Attack change.)



Now with these numbers we can safely confirm that having an instant cast ability will out perform a channeling one based on current damage numbers (note those comparisons were done with no gear same food and similar CP, also please understand that it is very very hard to have an exact test with 0 crits or 100% crits and compare them). Something more interesting starts to happen when these instant cast abilities are paired with Light Attack weaving as well, something that wont be as successful with a channeled ability. This is where my complaint comes with the new change to Empowering Sweep on the PTS (Empowering Sweep (morph): Redesigned this morph to offer damage, rather than survivability. The damage pulse after the initial hit now lasts 6 seconds at base, but is increased by 2 seconds for each enemy hit, up to a maximum of 6 enemies. It also now grants Empower for the duration, rather than Major Protection.). This change was designed to give a bit more oomph to the Stamina Templar but it is counter intuitive, you see the ultimate is an Area of Effect ultimate so assuming you use it on more then one enemy you would then only have damage for your light attacks, but your main spammable attack is Biting Jabs a channeled ability that is not very successful with light attack weaving as we just discussed. My solution would be to grant Minor Berserk to the Ultimate but this is just my own personal feedback. So what am I saying here with all of this typing the design of Stamina Templar is flawed greatly. Simple number adjustments would be okay, sure. But overall the Kit / core design of the class from my understanding is to be able to fight outnumbered and receive it's resources back through Repentance (Consecrate the souls of the fallen, healing you and your allies for 2702 Health and restoring 2702 Stamina to you each corpse in the area.) And yes this would be fantastic if smart healing and AoE caps did not exist, with the introduction of Champion Points the mitigation in the game has been increased,the healing as well, and the damage, but the damage is not at the same rate of growth as other defensive utilization in champion points, especially for a class that is designed to play against a lot of enemies. I don't want to complain just to complain, I hope I am able to present problems that I see with this class, and I also hope that we are all starting to come to certain realizations about this class.

So, now lets move on to the next question we should all be thinking. What can we do? That's a great question what can we do, I know redesigning skills is a big sigh, but hey someone gets paid for it right? (Yeah im talking to you combat team, im trying to get you those big $). I am by no means a combat designer, and I have no idea what the perfect solutions to these problems that I am presenting are, but some possible suggestions I have for these problems would be the ability to remove AoE caps so the design of fighting larger amounts of players will be more effective (but the downside of this would mean damage done to large amounts of players would go up greatly), also adjusting damage numbers and account for buffs such as major evasion. Maybe even letting power of the light's copied damage be able to crit would also help greatly, or the ability to stack multiple power of the lights on a single target similar to Sorcerers Curse. An idea of Biting Jab's not being a channeled AoE also would help Stamina Templar as well. This is purely my own constructive feedback on Stamina Templar as a whole from my 200 days of play time, I love this class I am sad of being below average and would love some combat love to be applied to Stamina Templar, especially with the upcoming release of a strong burst class (make sure you get Elsewyr Necro is incredible!). The point of me typing all of this would be to get some acknowledgement of the class falling off the bandwagon so to speak, and falling down the totem pole close to the bottom. To make some awareness of core problems the class is suffering from and hopefully assist in making some much needed changes to help put the class back on par with other classes to help take a direction of balance to the game. Thank you all for taking the time to read this, feel free to post some disagreements you have or point out some flaws in my discussion, or even if you have some suggestions of your own to throw out.

Please note the suggestions for "What can we do" was to keep the community interested in the post to express their own concerns and encourage livelihood in this discussion, I do not want to make suggestions to ZOS or tell them what to do in any way.

Minno

great writeup! But ultimately ZOS doesnt care about us given they just gave ALL our suggested goodies to Necro/DK/NB/Sorc with no hint of redesign in sight.

#RIPplar

splitsand

ZoS doesn’t care about stamplar. We have too few players to get them to notice.

The class falls behind drastically in both pvp and pve in recent patches.

We have the worst healing, and proactive defense compared to all of the other Stam classes (wings, shimmering, cloak, streak, shade, etc. )

Dk’s get 12% passive healing and major mending. This means they can out heal a Stamplar when they have defile on them and the Stamplar doesn’t.

Stamsorc (needs some help as well), while barely better than Stamplar at the moment still has crit surge and dark deal and insane mobility to help it survive.

Nb has cloak, shade, great damage, ultis, and nothing else really needs to be said.

Warden has an in class burst heal, major mending, and every other buff in the game.

Here are some absolutely reasonable suggestions for stamplar.

1: have jabs single target portion ignore evasion. Decrease cast time to .8 seconds to help pve weaving issues.

2: Passive rehaul. Rhage had a great video on this. Stamplar and stamsorc benefit from basically no passives.

3: healing: give Stamplar a way to use the mending passive, have the mending passive grant 12% bonus to AoE heals. This would help alleviate the honor the dead and breath of life complaints as well (by slightly nerfing them)

4: some form, or any form of proactive or ranged defense. Templar both mag and Stam have no way to deter range or keep someone in melee range. Look at dk, everyone complains about their mobility. BUT, they have access to snare+immob immunity, a ranged defense, snares, and an unblockable stun that also immobs and keeps players in melee range. Templar only needs one of these to help using jabs/sweeps. Which by the way is the only skill that is a channeled ability, that you have to aim in melee range. I think having a way to reliably land this would be huge.

I’m hoping someone reads this and can finally do something about stamplar.

Thanks,
- splitsand

Edit: this was typed on mobile, please excuse the grammar and formatting.

Jabbs_Giggity

Agree 100% with OP. @ZOS_BrianWheeler take notes. Many of these have been addressed and stress-tested by many players and has gone unnocticed. Such as @Cinbri

Touched on some below:

splitsand wrote: »

ZoS doesn’t care about stamplar. We have too few players to get them to notice.

Warden has an in class burst heal, major mending, and every other buff in the game.

Here are some absolutely reasonable suggestions for stamplar.

1: have jabs single target portion ignore evasion. Decrease cast time to .8 seconds to help pve weaving issues.
Would like to point out that I am in favor of removing the "channel" altogether and change this skill to an Instant "target" ability that does X damage + AOE splash damage to all targets in 5m range

4: some form, or any form of proactive or ranged defense. Templar both mag and Stam have no way to deter range or keep someone in melee range. Look at dk, everyone complains about their mobility. BUT, they have access to snare+immob immunity, a ranged defense, snares, and an unblockable stun that also immobs and keeps players in melee range. Templar only needs one of these to help using jabs/sweeps. Which by the way is the only skill that is a channeled ability, that you have to aim in melee range. I think having a way to reliably land this would be huge.
Either make Eclipse and morphs some sort of viable skill for this or change Sun Shield to scale max stat + effects

Players just want Templars to actually be competitive yet fun to play again. I miss pre-Morrowind Stamplar. I want to play Stamplar again, but just cannot justify the frustration.
#RIPlar

Firstmep

Nice writeup, loving it! Exept for the formatting:(

Will give my own feedback on stamplar a bit later, but i mostly aggree with everything Emac said, especailly biting jabs being weaker than suprise attack.

Emasculate

Sorry on the format I don't do it often

Minno

Emasculate wrote: »

Sorry on the format I don't do it often

format is fine, people forgot how to read paragraphs. Plus you stated the intent of each paragraph so it wasnt rocket science to figure out you were trying to show that jabs deals less damage with more risk than even PTS surprise attack which can be AC into an execute.

Jabbs_Giggity

Minno wrote: »

Emasculate wrote: »

Sorry on the format I don't do it often

format is fine, people forgot how to read paragraphs. Plus you stated the intent of each paragraph so it wasnt rocket science to figure out you were trying to show that jabs deals less damage with more risk than even PTS surprise attack which can be AC into an execute.

^Not to mention Stamplar has no Execute unless you slot 2H execute or DW execute that is unreliable to AC from Jabs

Khivas_Carrick

I too agree with many points touched on here. I also wouldn't mind seeing some of our class skills reworked into viable Stam DoTs so we don't always have to slot a Bow on the back-bar, but that's just me.

BRODY

In my experience from mmorpg, i can say: ZoS not will do rework templars. It have love class, manasorcs maybe or money class, warden and necromancer now, he rework warden after open Elsweyr and OP necro, cose people will buy this.

Mitaka211

Templar = Holy warrior
.... not a staff wielding priest , wearing a skirt.
Even the class name is miss leading

Hearts_Wake

Nope nope. Gotta sell necro.
Later sucka. See ya at the bottom of the totem poll brother.



Imagine if biting just just one monster thrust of the javelin. Seems like a sensible change to it to bring in more in line.

PoTL was useless til NMG changes iirc. Capping at 20something K dmg every what 6-7 seconds?
Isn’t the debuff easily available from other sources? Sets, other classes? Sadly adding to the Stamplar not viable column. But it’s not like we just want to cut all sources and only have Templar the source right.

Eh



I haven’t been playing because most of what you just talked about.

But unfortunately either the needed changes won’t happen or will be a ways off.
Twittle thumbs til then.
Maybe if we’re lucky the right person will see this post before elsewhere(on purpose, chill).


HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

Jabbs_Giggity

I hate to be that guy....but maybe if we all spam tag @BrianWheeler in each response to this thread he would feel more inclined to at least read, let alone respond.

By the way, it's like we are trying to contact customer service in India to have a defective product returned/replaced but not getting past the automated system.

Templar Class = Defective product that people have paid for via Base Game + DLC's/Chapters and/or Subscriptions and the product quality has become more and more cheaply made over the years due to outsourcing at lower cost of labor and material.

ZOS, great way to improve your Integrity...Bravo...

Red_Feather

I made a stamplar this year.
I like how some of the magicka skills can still be used by stamplar, like solar barrage and radiant oppression.
But overall it feels weaker than my other characters. I got one of each class now.

MrTtheDK

Interesting Read. I do agree with a lot of your points especially with how the evasion change directly hurt stamplars whose spamable is aoe focused. Another point on their burning passive- There is a lack of placed dot for burning passive (Spear is a placed magicka AOE that is easy to avoid while jabs is a channel). Maybe with the change of their ult that will be more reliable for damage. Strong lack of mobility and too much focus on templar "Standing their ground". With all that said; Shameless plug- Stam sorc suffers from the same lack of identity in terms of stamina skills, passives and ult choices (In general sorc's ults are terrible for burst).

Solariken

Great post, love to see a little thought given to stamplar. To add a few thoughts, my biggest pain points are

1. Burning Light pidgeon-holes the class into Jab spam. BL should be reworked to proc on all DOTs which will open up more weapon and skill choices.

2. Almost complete reliance on Rally and Troll King. There is very little build flexibility because it honestly feels like these two things are required, and even with both the self-healing potential is subpar to every other class/spec.

Mitaka211

Solariken wrote: »

Great post, love to see a little thought given to stamplar. To add a few thoughts, my biggest pain points are

1. Burning Light pidgeon-holes the class into Jab spam. BL should be reworked to proc on all DOTs which will open up more weapon and skill choices.

2. Almost complete reliance on Rally and Troll King. There is very little build flexibility because it honestly feels like these two things are required, and even with both the self-healing potential is subpar to every other class/spec.

Right on point. I though i was going crazy about the Troll King set. I was trying to convince myself i don't need it but every time i change to another set my performance drops dramatically (the only better option for bgs i have found , at least for me, is going 2 pieces with stam regen or 1 stam regen 1 weapon dmg). Same for rally .Forward momentum sounds good, doesn't work... for stamplar .

Firstmep

The silence from devs is deafening.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam

akredon_ESO

They are going to have to do something with the class because currently.
Stamplar is just lackluster. I used to feel like i could perform ok on the class but i recently tried to play Stamplar and it was just a mess like Magplar right now is in a MUCH better spot in terms of specs then stamplar is

Jabbs_Giggity

akredon_ESO wrote: »

They are going to have to do something with the class because currently.
Stamplar is just lackluster. I used to feel like i could perform ok on the class but i recently tried to play Stamplar and it was just a mess like Magplar right now is in a MUCH better spot in terms of specs then stamplar is

Agreed. However, Magplar is still not in a "Good Spot" because it suffers many of the same issues that Stamplar does, only they have access to ranged attacks and burst heals.

Only way to successfully play a Magplar (PVP) is to go Heavy Armor and min/max, or go Light Armor with shields and play as ranged caster like you played a Magblade (before they RIP'd).

Neither version of Templar is fun to play anymore, plain and simple.

Emasculate

Another key difference between magicka templar and stamina templar is an execute.

Minno

Emasculate wrote: »

Another key difference between magicka templar and stamina templar is an execute.

and that difference is watered down because some magplars have since learned to drop that execute entirely for solo play.

Both magplar/stamplar need some help, stamplar the most help of the two .

technohic

I don't know about rework. I quite like my stamplar but it just seems odd how it has the worst healing of stam toons when it is considered the identity of templar, and we lack proactive defense now that they are taking major protection of empowering sweeps, and our passives do not help much. A couple patches ago, we were decent but have since traded minor protection with decent uptime and minor vitality for a little resource management, then major evasion nailed our offensive power, and now we will lose major protection from the 1 ultimate we could really use. Sure; you can use rememberance, but that does not help you stay in the fight but rather just delays where you already were heading. And in Morrowind, the entire class lost major mending.

Frankly; all of templar non-healers has been watered down due to tanky pocket healing templars

Minno

technohic wrote: »

I don't know about rework. I quite like my stamplar but it just seems odd how it has the worst healing of stam toons when it is considered the identity of templar, and we lack proactive defense now that they are taking major protection of empowering sweeps, and our passives do not help much. A couple patches ago, we were decent but have since traded minor protection with decent uptime and minor vitality for a little resource management, then major evasion nailed our offensive power, and now we will lose major protection from the 1 ultimate we could really use. Sure; you can use rememberance, but that does not help you stay in the fight but rather just delays where you already were heading. And in Morrowind, the entire class lost major mending.

Frankly; all of templar non-healers has been watered down due to tanky pocket healing templars

I am of the feeling, templar identity isnt healing, it's flexibility in multiple avenues of healing/tanking/damage:
- has Melee/Ranged, AOE/Direct, DOS/Single Target dmg sources
- has multiple CC spells that support either melee, range or support roles.
- has both AOE and single target heals
- has a dmg/protective shield that grants minor protection/burning light on cast

Only thing missing is stamplar is locked out of this flexibility entirely (no ranged dmg options, no strong healing options, no tank options, just melee+ranged cc and buggy POTL).

Because if stamplar identity was healing, why was stamDK given the stamplar identity of dots+major mending?

Jabbs_Giggity

Minno wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

I don't know about rework. I quite like my stamplar but it just seems odd how it has the worst healing of stam toons when it is considered the identity of templar, and we lack proactive defense now that they are taking major protection of empowering sweeps, and our passives do not help much. A couple patches ago, we were decent but have since traded minor protection with decent uptime and minor vitality for a little resource management, then major evasion nailed our offensive power, and now we will lose major protection from the 1 ultimate we could really use. Sure; you can use rememberance, but that does not help you stay in the fight but rather just delays where you already were heading. And in Morrowind, the entire class lost major mending.

Frankly; all of templar non-healers has been watered down due to tanky pocket healing templars

I am of the feeling, templar identity isnt healing, it's flexibility in multiple avenues of healing/tanking/damage:
- has Melee/Ranged, AOE/Direct, DOS/Single Target dmg sources
- has multiple CC spells that support either melee, range or support roles.
- has both AOE and single target heals
- has a dmg/protective shield that grants minor protection/burning light on cast

Only thing missing is stamplar is locked out of this flexibility entirely (no ranged dmg options, no strong healing options, no tank options, just melee+ranged cc and buggy POTL).

Because if stamplar identity was healing, why was stamDK given the stamplar identity of dots+major mending?

Maybe ZOS actually is heading in a direction of a complete rework to Templar identity. Lol JK they don't know what they're doing...

Minno

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

I don't know about rework. I quite like my stamplar but it just seems odd how it has the worst healing of stam toons when it is considered the identity of templar, and we lack proactive defense now that they are taking major protection of empowering sweeps, and our passives do not help much. A couple patches ago, we were decent but have since traded minor protection with decent uptime and minor vitality for a little resource management, then major evasion nailed our offensive power, and now we will lose major protection from the 1 ultimate we could really use. Sure; you can use rememberance, but that does not help you stay in the fight but rather just delays where you already were heading. And in Morrowind, the entire class lost major mending.

Frankly; all of templar non-healers has been watered down due to tanky pocket healing templars

I am of the feeling, templar identity isnt healing, it's flexibility in multiple avenues of healing/tanking/damage:
- has Melee/Ranged, AOE/Direct, DOS/Single Target dmg sources
- has multiple CC spells that support either melee, range or support roles.
- has both AOE and single target heals
- has a dmg/protective shield that grants minor protection/burning light on cast

Only thing missing is stamplar is locked out of this flexibility entirely (no ranged dmg options, no strong healing options, no tank options, just melee+ranged cc and buggy POTL).

Because if stamplar identity was healing, why was stamDK given the stamplar identity of dots+major mending?

Maybe ZOS actually is heading in a direction of a complete rework to Templar identity. Lol JK they don't know what they're doing...

LOL I want to believe, Mulder, I really do

Jabbs_Giggity

Just wanted to leave this here, as it almost severely contradicts every class identity vs Live.

Templar
"These traveling knights call upon the powers of light and the burning sun to deal massive damage to their enemies while restoring health, magicka, and stamina to their allies."
―In-game description
The Templar is the most Versatile class in the game that excels in every role in combat. Not true.
This class with great defensive passives, damage-absorbing skills and shield-based abilities and anti-undead skills allows building classic Paladin type characters which, arguably, have the highest survivability in the game with excellent defense and self-healing abilities. Not ture
The Templar can also be great Blademaster type characters. Their mastery of all types of physical weapons is best amongst all classes. As such two-handed weapon wielding Blademaster type characters has insane physical damage dealing power second to only dual-wielding Assassin type Nightblades by a small margin but have significantly higher survivability than Assassin type Nightblades. Not ture
The Templar can also be good Rangers as well, due to their increased damage with the bow. Not ture
The Templar class makes excellent Cleric type characters. They are, undoubtedly, the best healers in the game. Not ture
The Templar's only real weakness is their low mobility. This, however, does not matter too much as the Templar is great at holding its ground. Not ture
The Templar class is recommended for all players new to the game. Not ture

Emasculate

You spelled true wrong friend

Lord_Zele

What a beautiful read. Thank you for this my man. I approve.

Emasculate

Thanks brother, us Stamina Templars must hold strong, and assert the law.

ThanatosXR

This thread is DPS player complaing about the best grouping class, dont tread on my magpar