Ebonheart pact storyline

Gluedog

My opinion may change about this storyline as I have two more zones to complete...

However, so far the story seems disconnected and not nearly as good as the other alliances.

For one jorunn hasn’t yet been introduced in the story, meanwhile the other alliance leaders are seen throughout. This makes the story feel less epic and more disconnected imo.

The stonefalls story was really short, and then deshaan was good but ended not as good and shadowfen was good but a bit short as well.

Anyways I still love all of the eso story but I have not felt as strongly for this alliance as I have for the others

ProfessorKittyhawk

That's been my concern about the EP storyline for a long time. AD introduces us to its leader almost from the get-go, after completing the tutorial island. We meet DC's in the second zone and see him throughout. But we don't meet Jorrun until the next to last zone, giving him less time to be developed as a character.

I feel AD has the strongest storyline of the three alliances. Ayrenn has an arc that extends across the first three zones before shifting focus to the Bosmer, and then finally, the Khajiit. But we meet Ayrenn early on and fight alongside her and see her struggles, learning what she stands for and hoped to achieve.

Emeric is also well done, though with less of an arc through all the zones. But hes portrayed as a world weary man who doubts his ability to lead, but is willing to do whatever it takes to uphold his ideology and beliefs. Even leading his men into battle.

Jorrun, while not terribly written or one dimensional, feels the least well served by the EP storyline. We meet him late into the campaign and only really learn that he mourns and regrets the loss of his sister who he believes would have been a better, stronger leader for the Pact. He takes action and fights alongside us and his men, but I never really connected with him like I did with Ayrenn or Emeric. Almost seems like the devs favored them more because of their celebrity voice actors, but who knows for sure.

VaranisArano

Disclaimer: I was initially disappointed by the Pact storyline too, with the result that I've thought a lot about how it works, and how it doesn't.


Unlike the others, the Ebonheart Pact is a rather fragmented alliance, and the story reflects that.

The Dominion suffers from an inexperienced leader, and its story is Ayrenn getting the allies she needs in the Silvenar, the Green Lady, and the Mane, so that the Dominion can actually reach its potential.

Likewise, the Covenant's story is more or less the Vestige cleaning up after High King Emeric' failures. He suffers from nightmares in Sotrmhaven, his failure to appoint a ruler in Rivenspire after Ranswer leads to a second crisis, he nearly loses his Redguard allies to necromancers, and in Bangkorai, we have to save him from his own overconfidence, so that he finally becomes a decent king, worthy of leading the 2nd empire he wants to create.

The Ebonheart Pact, on the other hand, isn't actually interested in reaching any potential. Thhey are a conglomeration of three nations who hate each other and are cooperating out of necessity. The question being asked in the EP storyline isn't "Will the Pact or its leaders reach their potential?" Its more simply, "Will the Pact survive?"

Spoilers for the EP storyline:

The Ebonheart Pact is constantly under the threat of splintering, mostly from internal pressures.
The questline is the Vestige becoming the figure that welds the three nations together through their deeds

In Stonefalls, we see the first tensions between Nord, Argonians and Dunmer. The Argonians are willing to make sacrifices to make the Pact work, while the Dunmer are willing to destroy everyone to get revenge on the Covenant and refusing to take advice from their allies. We also see that the Dunmer commitment is too their own culture - they certainly haven't given up slavery.
In Deshaan, we meet Almalexia, one of the powers holding the Dunmer to the Pact. We defeat the Maulborn Plague and win her favor, making us more acceptable to the Dunmer.
In Shadowfen, we unmask the skinchangers, save the Argonian eggs, and the Hist.
In Eastmarch, we save King Jorunn, and because of our previous deeds in Deshaann and Shadowfen, everyone is willing to come to the table and reaffirm the Pact.
In the Rift, we lead the effort against the Worm Cult and the giant, and the final fight proves how far the Pact has come...because we made that possible.

Its made pretty clear that without the direct action of the Vestige, the Pact was going to tear apart from its own pressure...and you fix all that without ever becoming the sidekick or servant to any NPC.

Essentially, in AD and DC, the ruler is the central figure of the story. Ayrenn and Emeric have the most growth. Moreover, we as the Vestige take a backseat in terms of actually forming the Dominion or Covenant. We save their allies, so those allies can help the ruler. We do a lot of heroic things, but its the NPCs we help doing the work of actually forming/fixing their alliance.

In the EP questline, the Vestige is the central character, welding the three nations together by their deeds. It means that there isn't a central EP character to focus on like Ayrenn or Emeric or their helpers. That's because WE are the central character.

We the Player are the actual Hero of the EP story, not merely the helping hand to the ruler. In that sense, the EP questline makes US the central focus of the story. We are the hero that unifies the Pact by our deeds. We do all the work of proving that, yes, all three races CAN work together, because our deeds are the proof of that.

So if you like character-focused stories, AD and DC are probably going to feel like better stories. The main characters have their own story going on, which you assist or interfere with. It feels a little to me like TES IV Oblivion, where Martin is the Hero with his own story going on, while you are his sidekick.

If you like being the one to drive events forward or being the main character, the EP story is pretty good at pulling that off. It reminds me more of TES V Skyrim, where you are the Hero, and its your actions that create the story and make the Pact actually work. Like the Dragonborn, you might take orders from superiors, but you are no one's sidekick.

Ashfen

VaranisArano wrote: »

Likewise, the Covenant's story is more or less the Vestige cleaning up after High King Emeric' failures. He suffers from nightmares in Sotrmhaven, his failure to appoint a ruler in Rivenspire after Ranswer leads to a second crisis, he nearly loses his Redguard allies to necromancers, and in Bangkorai, we have to save him from his own overconfidence, so that he finally becomes a decent king, worthy of leading the 2nd empire he wants to create.

In Stormhaven, Emeric was victim of Vaermina, i don't think it could be consider as his own failure.
And for the Redguards and the necromancers, i don't really see why it's his fault. ^^"

VaranisArano

Ashfen wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Likewise, the Covenant's story is more or less the Vestige cleaning up after High King Emeric' failures. He suffers from nightmares in Sotrmhaven, his failure to appoint a ruler in Rivenspire after Ranswer leads to a second crisis, he nearly loses his Redguard allies to necromancers, and in Bangkorai, we have to save him from his own overconfidence, so that he finally becomes a decent king, worthy of leading the 2nd empire he wants to create.

In Stormhaven, Emeric was victim of Vaermina, i don't think it could be consider as his own failure.
And for the Redguards and the necromancers, i don't really see why it's his fault. ^^"

At the end of Rivenspire, Maraya is the one who sends us to help out her father, because Emeric's been ignoring her warnings.

Ashfen

VaranisArano wrote: »

At the end of Rivenspire, Maraya is the one who sends us to help out her father, because Emeric's been ignoring her warnings.

Maraya told herself that it's only some rumors and she sent you there to check if everything is fine. I understand what you mean but i still think it's a bit exaggerated to state that Emeric nearly lost Redguard by his own fault.

Korah_Eaglecry

Gluedog wrote: »

My opinion may change about this storyline as I have two more zones to complete...

However, so far the story seems disconnected and not nearly as good as the other alliances.

For one jorunn hasn’t yet been introduced in the story, meanwhile the other alliance leaders are seen throughout. This makes the story feel less epic and more disconnected imo.

The stonefalls story was really short, and then deshaan was good but ended not as good and shadowfen was good but a bit short as well.

Anyways I still love all of the eso story but I have not felt as strongly for this alliance as I have for the others

Youre not wrong that its disconnected, but I think its due to ZOS not really wanting to tread too deeply into the obvious direction that story should have went. It should have addressed the elephant in the room in regards to slavery and racism. You have three races that had no business allying with each other and any quests that hinted at racism or mistreatment of fellow Pact members was cleansed long ago.

There was a time when you could hear over and over again Dunmer expressing shock and disgust at the idea an Argonian had helped them. Now those same NPCs just thank you. In Shadowfen the opening dialogue of the main story of the zone hints at some misdirection with some racial tensions between Dunmer and Argonians. It goes no where quickly. To this day we dont even know how the Argonian members of the Pact are structured because they lazily overlooked that side of the Alliance.

It was like the writers were told they couldnt talk about the juicy stuff and had to keep it as PC as possible. And this is what we got.

VaranisArano

Ashfen wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

At the end of Rivenspire, Maraya is the one who sends us to help out her father, because Emeric's been ignoring her warnings.

Maraya told herself that it's only some rumors and she sent you there to check if everything is fine. I understand what you mean but i still think it's a bit exaggerated to state that Emeric nearly lost Redguard by his own fault.

I have the screenshots to check, and you are correct that Maraya says that she's only heard rumors, and that Emeric's virtue of "hopeless optimism" means that he rarely takes action until a problem has been confirmed.

Way I see it, one of Emeric's major flaws is inaction. Like you, I give him a pass for Stormhaven. But the Rivenspire problem goes back to King Ranser, well before the game, and his inaction in appointing a leader for the region is part of the fustercluck that erupts there (and even in the end, he hands the decision over to you.) Similarly, his wife is hearing rumors that an enemy from her father's past has returned...and she's the one to take action to confirm or disprove the rumor. In one way, that makes sense - her family, her problem to solve. On the other hand, "hopeless optimism" almost lost Emeric his Redguard ally if Maraya hadn't taken action to confirm the rumors.

He sort of learns his lesson from that, because we see him being much more active in Bangkorai...at least until he decides to impress his old flame, Septima.

I like Emeric well enough as a character. His flaws make him interesting.

kratier

that sucks to hear its the last story campaign i have to finish

ProfessorKittyhawk

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Gluedog wrote: »

My opinion may change about this storyline as I have two more zones to complete...

However, so far the story seems disconnected and not nearly as good as the other alliances.

For one jorunn hasn’t yet been introduced in the story, meanwhile the other alliance leaders are seen throughout. This makes the story feel less epic and more disconnected imo.

The stonefalls story was really short, and then deshaan was good but ended not as good and shadowfen was good but a bit short as well.

Anyways I still love all of the eso story but I have not felt as strongly for this alliance as I have for the others

Youre not wrong that its disconnected, but I think its due to ZOS not really wanting to tread too deeply into the obvious direction that story should have went. It should have addressed the elephant in the room in regards to slavery and racism. You have three races that had no business allying with each other and any quests that hinted at racism or mistreatment of fellow Pact members was cleansed long ago.

There was a time when you could hear over and over again Dunmer expressing shock and disgust at the idea an Argonian had helped them. Now those same NPCs just thank you. In Shadowfen the opening dialogue of the main story of the zone hints at some misdirection with some racial tensions between Dunmer and Argonians. It goes no where quickly. To this day we dont even know how the Argonian members of the Pact are structured because they lazily overlooked that side of the Alliance.

It was like the writers were told they couldnt talk about the juicy stuff and had to keep it as PC as possible. And this is what we got.

Been a while since I've played through EP but that's interesting about them cha bong the "An Argonian made this?" Line being cut. Will have to play through again. I know theres still one Dunmer who still distrusts Walks-in-Ash.

Danikat

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Gluedog wrote: »

My opinion may change about this storyline as I have two more zones to complete...

However, so far the story seems disconnected and not nearly as good as the other alliances.

For one jorunn hasn’t yet been introduced in the story, meanwhile the other alliance leaders are seen throughout. This makes the story feel less epic and more disconnected imo.

The stonefalls story was really short, and then deshaan was good but ended not as good and shadowfen was good but a bit short as well.

Anyways I still love all of the eso story but I have not felt as strongly for this alliance as I have for the others

Youre not wrong that its disconnected, but I think its due to ZOS not really wanting to tread too deeply into the obvious direction that story should have went. It should have addressed the elephant in the room in regards to slavery and racism. You have three races that had no business allying with each other and any quests that hinted at racism or mistreatment of fellow Pact members was cleansed long ago.

There was a time when you could hear over and over again Dunmer expressing shock and disgust at the idea an Argonian had helped them. Now those same NPCs just thank you. In Shadowfen the opening dialogue of the main story of the zone hints at some misdirection with some racial tensions between Dunmer and Argonians. It goes no where quickly. To this day we dont even know how the Argonian members of the Pact are structured because they lazily overlooked that side of the Alliance.

It was like the writers were told they couldnt talk about the juicy stuff and had to keep it as PC as possible. And this is what we got.

There's plenty of Pact storylines which address the fact that the dunmer and argonians hate each other. Random example, because I was doing it last night, all the Senie quests in Stonefalls where you act as the go-between for the argonians and the dark elves because they won't talk to each other, even during a crisis.

It's just the players race which is ignored (like being told the dunmer won't speak to argonians but will listen to you, even if you're an argonian), but that's not unique to the Pact. The player character's race and other characteristics are almost always ignored - like the Rivenspire storyline where you're sent to speak to vampire hunters or trigger magical effects because you're not a vampire...even if you are. Or (a more recent problem) storylines which reference your character not having a soul even if you started in a later chapter and never did Soulshriven in Coldharbour.

Basically they only have 1 version of the dialogue for each character and sometimes that won't fit your character. Sometimes that's kind-of understandable (like not going back over the whole base game to allow for people who never did the introduction) sometimes it just comes across as poorly planned writing. I realise the Pact is aimed mainly at Skyrim players so they probably expected most people to play a nord, but surely it would have occurred to them that some people would play as a Pact argonian.

Ashfen

VaranisArano wrote: »

I have the screenshots to check, and you are correct that Maraya says that she's only heard rumors, and that Emeric's virtue of "hopeless optimism" means that he rarely takes action until a problem has been confirmed.

Way I see it, one of Emeric's major flaws is inaction. Like you, I give him a pass for Stormhaven. But the Rivenspire problem goes back to King Ranser, well before the game, and his inaction in appointing a leader for the region is part of the fustercluck that erupts there (and even in the end, he hands the decision over to you.) Similarly, his wife is hearing rumors that an enemy from her father's past has returned...and she's the one to take action to confirm or disprove the rumor. In one way, that makes sense - her family, her problem to solve. On the other hand, "hopeless optimism" almost lost Emeric his Redguard ally if Maraya hadn't taken action to confirm the rumors.

He sort of learns his lesson from that, because we see him being much more active in Bangkorai...at least until he decides to impress his old flame, Septima.

I like Emeric well enough as a character. His flaws make him interesting.

I agree with you for the fact that Emeric's inaction can be a problem and that he made a mistake for Rivenspire.
For Alik'r, even if his wife was right indeed, i can understand why he did'nt send troops for just some rumor. And if our character didn't come, i suppose Redguards would have ended up asking him for help and he would have send his armies.

Apart from that, i agree that he's far from being perfect and his flaws make him more interesting. ^^

(Btw, sorry for the off-topic. x) )

RebornV3x

The EP story lines are definitely the worst other than Naryu in Deshaan and some of the Riften and Eastmarch quests its boring and just all over the place the AD and DC zones are definitely a step above the EP main quests as far as base game quests go.

jainiadral

I'm having a horrible time motivating myself to finish the Pact storyline and zones. Right now, I'm stalled out in The Rift, after having to marshall all my resources to get through Eastmarch. EP's story feels disjointed to me after I did the main parts for Cadwell, and plagued with way too many calls to nostalgia.

So far, the only zone I've really loved is Shadowfen. Stonefalls is ugly as sin, and reminds me of choking and coughing my way through two summers and falls of giant coast-enveloping fires. Most of the NPCs were snotty and infuriating. Deshaan was okayish, but the whole Tribunal thing went way over my head since I never played out Morrowind. Skyrim? Been there, done that. For hundreds of hours. I feel really done with it.

Starlock

Pact storyline seems deliberately disjointed to represent the historical animosity between the races. The zones on their own aren’t bad, but as a unit? They don’t flow together. When I created a Pact character, I just kept this in mind and developed one who wasn’t all that invested in the alliance (aka, an ashlander).

LanteanPegasus

Well, the problem could be rooted in the fact that the Pact is just a bunch of... people who have no buisiness whatsoever in forming a political alliance.

You have racists that would prefer to enslave half their allies (Dunmer), a people that would prefer to stay at home and care for their own spirituality only (Argonians), and the Nords who want a lot but don't have any real plan (or patience) to get it (and are either drunk or running after some meaningless grudge half the time, anyway).

The Covenant has an idea and an ideal for all of Tamriel, as has the Dominion (I'm talking about the queen here, not her enemies). They both have reasons to work with their respective partners, and plan on actually working together in the future despite their differences.
The Pact... Well, I'm about halfway through their questline, and I haven't heard any vision for the future besides "Oh no-ey, the others want to rule, but we don't want to be ruled by them because... we don't like being ruled by anyone ! Gods forbid that we would ever be ruled by our own allies, but hey, we'll discuss that later, when we are free to hate each other again."
So for the Dunmer and the Nords the only common factor is that the other alliances are the more dangerous, more acute enemy. The Argonians... Honestly, I think they'd be a lot better off if one of the other factions just won, because those would let them do their thing, including them in their respective realm like they did their other allies.

So, without a charismatic leader and any plan besides what they *don't* want - who could have made a compelling storyline out of that ?
And as much as I like it when my character matters - I always flinch when I hear that I helped the Pact survive another day, because I think the whole thing is a bad idea for all of Tamriel, and even for the Argonians (the Dunmer and Nords probably don't deserve any better). Why should I work to keep (or bring) together an alliance that has no interest in working together, and no constructive goal to work towards ??
Or, if I have to invest all that work, and would put any value in not being the "sidekick" to some leader - why am I not made the leader of that whole pathetic bunch, that wouldn't even exist anymore, if not for looking up to me who says "you all owe me, so work with each other, even if you hate it !" ??

I had lots of fun and good times reaching Cadwell's Silver, but I'll probably never reach Cadwell's Gold, because that alliance just isn't worth helping. (I'll do all the quests to help individual people, and I'm all for helping the Argonians, but I'm not really convinced to do anything to stop the whole party there from being conquered by the other alliances, it would probably be better for everyone if they were.)

Sylvermynx

I'm really enjoying the explication of the story threads from all of you. I hope once I get my warden to CP160, I'll be able to do at least parts of the story in DC with her (Redguard) - I'm not sure that CP is going to make up for 2k+ ms ping, but I'll give it a shot. I'm really suffering not being able to quest much as questing has always been my first love in Elder Scrolls games.

I dunno.... even though I think I have the rotation down okay on her, I have a hell of a time killing anything that could be considered a "mini-boss" in the quest lines throughout the game. Took her three tries to get out of Castle of the Worm alive, for instance.... mega pings sucks huge boulders through little bitty straws (as a Texan friend of mine says).

Iccotak

honestly i prefer Pact over the other guys

TheShadowScout

Gluedog wrote: »

However, so far the story seems disconnected and not nearly as good as the other alliances.

Opinions differ.

I found the disconnected story to be a good reflection of the pacts nature, bound together by sheer neccessity in face of greater common enemies, but not nearly as united as they might seem at first glance... as has been said, they are not really working well together, have no common goel past "defend our home" (which actually is rather appealing to me). The fragmented nature of their alliance is very well depicted methinks, all the fault lines of many dunmer still looking at argonians with slavery in their minds because its "traditional" while playing their own games between tribunal and tradition, many argonians still looking at dunmer with vengeance for slavery on their mind because it has been gone on for way too long while sometimes having trouble with being seen as "savages" by many others and how to deal with it, and the nords being drunk half the time, and the other times arrogantly bragging about the superior size of their... axes... and how they don't need no "milk-drinkers" telling them what to do or not... each and every one depicted in several questings here and there...

And I adore how the pact storeyline actually gives you a good reason to fight the other alliances!

In my eyes, they are the ONLY ones worth fighting for, because they just want to be left alone, they are not seeking to subjugate others in the name of elven supremacy or breton dominance, they just want to stay free and maybe get a bit of vengeance for all their slain neighbors and destroyed hatchlings...

EP stories give you some pain to protect your people in the pact from, not just a vague sense of "hey lads, lets go there and kill people cause our lords say they have a plan..."

I mean, what do the others even fight for? To plant their high kings royal arse on the ruby throne? To rule over all because they are "the altmer master race"? We here in the german speaking part of europe have had bad experiences with that sort of thing, you know...

VaranisArano wrote: »

Disclaimer: I was initially disappointed by the Pact storyline too, with the result that I've thought a lot about how it works, and how it doesn't...

...and as a result your thoughts on this are really good ones!

Ashfen wrote: »

In Stormhaven, Emeric was victim of Vaermina, i don't think it could be consider as his own failure.

...who let the cult grow until they were able to do all that crap, hmmm?
Fault of inaction, methinks! Same as with not considering his "friend" the general might betray him (when his ancestory did exactly the same to their allies) and more besides.
But... he learns, tho it kinda takes another life... but hey, that IS what makes him interesting, he fails through "optimism" at first "lets just wait, things might work out...", then fails through overconfidence, then dies and gets a second chance... and learns from his mistakes.

In the pact storylines, it is not -one- character that grows that way... but the three races in general. Many small growth steps, from the one dunmer who starts maybe reconsidering his stance on argonians when his daughter is saved with the help of one to the soldier who starts to appreciate the argonians mystics advice, from the nord prince who gets his head straightened out to the argonians who realize that just because they are not interested in the wider world does not mean the wider world might take an interest in them... its all spread over many, many NPCs instead.

One could say... in the DC, Emric grows into his role, in the AD, the realms align with Ayrenns vision, but in EP, its all the people coming together as the "growth" plotline!

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

It was like the writers were told they couldnt talk about the juicy stuff and had to keep it as PC as possible. And this is what we got.

And that is one of the major faults of ESO, sadly. Because there is so much juicy stuff there we do not get...

Grentek

TheShadowScout wrote: »

To rule over all because they are "the altmer master race"? We here in the german speaking part of europe have had bad experiences with that sort of thing, you know...

I suppose you don't know anything about the reason why the Dominion fight, because it's not because "altmer master race".
It's TESO, not Skyrim get your lore up to date please.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

I mean, what do the others even fight for? To plant their high kings royal arse on the ruby throne?

Oh and, about that, that's exactly what Talos did. You know, that "awesome nordic warrior".

woufff

Thanks for this interesting thread, the Pact was also not my preferred storyline, maybe also because it was my last one and after the Dominion it seemed a bit incoherent to me as well.

Thanks to this thread and the insightful explanation of @VaranisArano, I will start a Dunmer char now and experience it again

Darth_Trumpious

Because the Pact never needs a king - we don't bow to the false king or queen, we bow to the true hero!

BLOOD FOR THE PACT!

VaranisArano

woufff wrote: »

Thanks for this interesting thread, the Pact was also not my preferred storyline, maybe also because it was my last one and after the Dominion it seemed a bit incoherent to me as well.

Thanks to this thread and the insightful explanation of @VaranisArano, I will start a Dunmer char now and experience it again

I hope you enjoy it! One of the major strengths of the Pact questline was that I thought it did the best job of making the 3 Banners War hit home. From Bleakrock on, it really sets the stage for why the Pact started and why all three races need each other even if they don't like each other.

Ashfen

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Ashfen wrote: »

In Stormhaven, Emeric was victim of Vaermina, i don't think it could be consider as his own failure.

...who let the cult grow until they were able to do all that crap, hmmm?
Fault of inaction, methinks! Same as with not considering his "friend" the general might betray him (when his ancestory did exactly the same to their allies) and more besides.
But... he learns, tho it kinda takes another life... but hey, that IS what makes him interesting, he fails through "optimism" at first "lets just wait, things might work out...", then fails through overconfidence, then dies and gets a second chance... and learns from his mistakes.

If you consider it's Emeric's fault if Stormhaven was invaded by a daedric lord, you can say the same for all the other storylines. Why are there problems in Ebonheart's regions ? Why did they the let problems grow ? It's a nonsense.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

In my eyes, they are the ONLY ones worth fighting for, because they just want to be left alone, they are not seeking to subjugate others in the name of elven supremacy or breton dominance, they just want to stay free and maybe get a bit of vengeance for all their slain neighbors and destroyed hatchlings...

EP stories give you some pain to protect your people in the pact from, not just a vague sense of "hey lads, lets go there and kill people cause our lords say they have a plan..."

I mean, what do the others even fight for? To plant their high kings royal arse on the ruby throne? To rule over all because they are "the altmer master race"? We here in the german speaking part of europe have had bad experiences with that sort of thing, you know...

When i read this, i just have the impression you are not objective or that you speak in RP way, as you didn't understand at all the philosophy of the other factions. The Covenant for example wants to restore the Empire and make Tamriel prosperous. It's not just the "put our king's ass on the throne" thing.
Ayreen wants to rule because she doesn't trust anymore an Empire lead by humans after what happened.

It's quite sad some people are just like "the Pact is the best faction because we're so nice, all the others factions are just *** who attack us without reason". ^^"

JKorr

Ashfen wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

At the end of Rivenspire, Maraya is the one who sends us to help out her father, because Emeric's been ignoring her warnings.

Maraya told herself that it's only some rumors and she sent you there to check if everything is fine. I understand what you mean but i still think it's a bit exaggerated to state that Emeric nearly lost Redguard by his own fault.

So Emeric couldn't spare one single soldier to check a rumor? He didn't have to send the entire army, but he didn't even send one. He didn't even bother to send the random wandering adventurer to check out the rumor; Maraya did. Not the behavior of a ruler who is actually ruling/caring for his lands and people. He makes no decisions and gets how many of his subjects killed/turned to vampires because he refuses to make up his mind. He allows a random wandering adventurer to pick a ruler to decide the future path of one of his territories. When he finally does make a decision to fight, he gets his entire royal guard killed instantly. I was *so* disappointed I couldn't leave him dead, but even the Redguard afterlife didn't think he deserved to stay. On the bright side, with him in charge, the war will end up being between the Pact and the Dominion; Emeric won't make any decisions until the appropriate wandering adventurer happens by.... The Covenant story was the one I disliked the most. I have only one DC character out of a full roster, and I can only stomach doing the bare minimum for Cadwell's Silver/Gold for all the others. The other two factions I complete all the quests and clear the zones.

VaranisArano

Ashfen wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Ashfen wrote: »

In Stormhaven, Emeric was victim of Vaermina, i don't think it could be consider as his own failure.

...who let the cult grow until they were able to do all that crap, hmmm?
Fault of inaction, methinks! Same as with not considering his "friend" the general might betray him (when his ancestory did exactly the same to their allies) and more besides.
But... he learns, tho it kinda takes another life... but hey, that IS what makes him interesting, he fails through "optimism" at first "lets just wait, things might work out...", then fails through overconfidence, then dies and gets a second chance... and learns from his mistakes.

If you consider it's Emeric's fault if Stormhaven was invaded by a daedric lord, you can say the same for all the other storylines. Why are there problems in Ebonheart's regions ? Why did they the let problems grow ? It's a nonsense.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

In my eyes, they are the ONLY ones worth fighting for, because they just want to be left alone, they are not seeking to subjugate others in the name of elven supremacy or breton dominance, they just want to stay free and maybe get a bit of vengeance for all their slain neighbors and destroyed hatchlings...

EP stories give you some pain to protect your people in the pact from, not just a vague sense of "hey lads, lets go there and kill people cause our lords say they have a plan..."

I mean, what do the others even fight for? To plant their high kings royal arse on the ruby throne? To rule over all because they are "the altmer master race"? We here in the german speaking part of europe have had bad experiences with that sort of thing, you know...

When i read this, i just have the impression you are not objective or that you speak in RP way, as you didn't understand at all the philosophy of the other factions. The Covenant for example wants to restore the Empire and make Tamriel prosperous. It's not just the "put our king's ass on the throne" thing.
Ayreen wants to rule because she doesn't trust anymore an Empire lead by humans after what happened.

It's quite sad some people are just like "the Pact is the best faction because we're so nice, all the others factions are just *** who attack us without reason". ^^"

On the last point, to be entirely fair, the Pact doesnt actually do very much fighting abroad. There are a couple of areas where the Pact fights AD or DC, but nothing particularly memorable.

Compared to the Pact vs DC and AD...

Bleakrock- Bal Foyen- Stonefall, where you save the inhabitants of a burning village, are forced to make the choice betwee. Saving the fort or docks, then arrive to find the whole of Stonefalls under the threat of Covenant invasion...
Or Shadowfen, where Dominion military forces attempt to kill Argonian babies...

Sure, I'd say that the Dominion and Covenant all have their own reasons for the war that makes sense to them.

But in my experience, the Pact questline gave me reasons and opportunity to really support my alliance against the attacks of the others in multiple, major, memorable questlines. The result was that as a Pact player I have a lot of concrete examples of why I want to defend my alliance against the others. Whereas AD and DC have more concrete examples of "This is why we should be in charge" from their questlines, which fits our alliances. The Pact is defensive in nature, wanting control because they don't trust the others, so their quest explains why. The others have a vision for Tamriel, and their quest is finding out if that vision will come to fruition.

Ashfen

JKorr wrote: »

So Emeric couldn't spare one single soldier to check a rumor? He didn't have to send the entire army, but he didn't even send one. He didn't even bother to send the random wandering adventurer to check out the rumor; Maraya did. Not the behavior of a ruler who is actually ruling/caring for his lands and people. He makes no decisions and gets how many of his subjects killed/turned to vampires because he refuses to make up his mind. He allows a random wandering adventurer to pick a ruler to decide the future path of one of his territories. When he finally does make a decision to fight, he gets his entire royal guard killed instantly. I was *so* disappointed I couldn't leave him dead, but even the Redguard afterlife didn't think he deserved to stay. On the bright side, with him in charge, the war will end up being between the Pact and the Dominion; Emeric won't make any decisions until the appropriate wandering adventurer happens by.... The Covenant story was the one I disliked the most. I have only one DC character out of a full roster, and I can only stomach doing the bare minimum for Cadwell's Silver/Gold for all the others. The other two factions I complete all the quests and clear the zones.

And Farahajad could have react himself and ask Emeric for help if the situation was so bad but he didn't.
It's easy to say "it's his fault, he should have done this" after it happened.
And yes for Rivenspire, it was maybe not a good idea to not choose himself a leader, but how could he imagine that the region would later be devastated by vampires ?
Of course, he made some mistake, but it's hypocrit to accuse him for all the *** that happened in Covenant's zones.
I suppose Jorunn is perfect and never makes any mistake ?

VaranisArano wrote: »

On the last point, to be entirely fair, the Pact doesnt actually do very much fighting abroad. There are a couple of areas where the Pact fights AD or DC, but nothing particularly memorable.

Compared to the Pact vs DC and AD...

Bleakrock- Bal Foyen- Stonefall, where you save the inhabitants of a burning village, are forced to make the choice betwee. Saving the fort or docks, then arrive to find the whole of Stonefalls under the threat of Covenant invasion...
Or Shadowfen, where Dominion military forces attempt to kill Argonian babies...

Sure, I'd say that the Dominion and Covenant all have their own reasons for the war that makes sense to them.

But in my experience, the Pact questline gave me reasons and opportunity to really support my alliance against the attacks of the others in multiple, major, memorable questlines. The result was that as a Pact player I have a lot of concrete examples of why I want to defend my alliance against the others. Whereas AD and DC have more concrete examples of "This is why we should be in charge" from their questlines, which fits our alliances. The Pact is defensive in nature, wanting control because they don't trust the others, so their quest explains why. The others have a vision for Tamriel, and their quest is finding out if that vision will come to fruition.

Yes, i understand this point.
My reaction was more for the "the Pact are the only one worth fighting for, the other are just assh*le who wants to sit on the ruby throne" thing which is very subjective or implies the person ignores the other factions' stories. I mean, it looks more like a RP discussion than a objective discussion about the lore. I don't know if i'm really clear. ^^

JKorr

Ashfen wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

So Emeric couldn't spare one single soldier to check a rumor? He didn't have to send the entire army, but he didn't even send one. He didn't even bother to send the random wandering adventurer to check out the rumor; Maraya did. Not the behavior of a ruler who is actually ruling/caring for his lands and people. He makes no decisions and gets how many of his subjects killed/turned to vampires because he refuses to make up his mind. He allows a random wandering adventurer to pick a ruler to decide the future path of one of his territories. When he finally does make a decision to fight, he gets his entire royal guard killed instantly. I was *so* disappointed I couldn't leave him dead, but even the Redguard afterlife didn't think he deserved to stay. On the bright side, with him in charge, the war will end up being between the Pact and the Dominion; Emeric won't make any decisions until the appropriate wandering adventurer happens by.... The Covenant story was the one I disliked the most. I have only one DC character out of a full roster, and I can only stomach doing the bare minimum for Cadwell's Silver/Gold for all the others. The other two factions I complete all the quests and clear the zones.

And Farahajad could have react himself and ask Emeric for help if the situation was so bad but he didn't.
It's easy to say "it's his fault, he should have done this" after it happened.
And yes for Rivenspire, it was maybe not a good idea to not choose himself a leader, but how could he imagine that the region would later be devastated by vampires ?
Of course, he made some mistake, but it's hypocrit to accuse him for all the *** that happened in Covenant's zones.
I suppose Jorunn is perfect and never makes any mistake ?

Nope. He isn't perfect either. He makes one large mistake; he didn't kill his brother at the first duel. Unlike Emeric Jorunn actively participates in the planning and fighting. When you rescue Emeric from the dream world nothing much changes. When you rescue Jorunn from the dream world he is part of carrying the fight to Thallick, and he's also there fighting Sinmur and gets the approval of Ysgramor. Definitely *not* what happens with Emeric in the afterlife. Not to mention Jorunn actually rectifies his mistake; defeat his brother, and Jorunn the king dispenses justice for treason and executes him in front of the alliance. By the way; Rivenspire already had had a civil war over who would rule. Emeric knew not picking a ruler wasn't a good idea, and I believe he tells you so when he sends you out to fix his mistake. He might not have foreseen vampires, but he knew not settling the question of the ruler wouldn't lead to sunshine rainbows and happiness. Even after the handy wandering adventurer slaughters their way through the legions of vampires and undead and settles the fighting, Emeric won't make a decision. He still leaves it up to the random wandering adventurer.

VaranisArano

JKorr wrote: »

Ashfen wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

So Emeric couldn't spare one single soldier to check a rumor? He didn't have to send the entire army, but he didn't even send one. He didn't even bother to send the random wandering adventurer to check out the rumor; Maraya did. Not the behavior of a ruler who is actually ruling/caring for his lands and people. He makes no decisions and gets how many of his subjects killed/turned to vampires because he refuses to make up his mind. He allows a random wandering adventurer to pick a ruler to decide the future path of one of his territories. When he finally does make a decision to fight, he gets his entire royal guard killed instantly. I was *so* disappointed I couldn't leave him dead, but even the Redguard afterlife didn't think he deserved to stay. On the bright side, with him in charge, the war will end up being between the Pact and the Dominion; Emeric won't make any decisions until the appropriate wandering adventurer happens by.... The Covenant story was the one I disliked the most. I have only one DC character out of a full roster, and I can only stomach doing the bare minimum for Cadwell's Silver/Gold for all the others. The other two factions I complete all the quests and clear the zones.

And Farahajad could have react himself and ask Emeric for help if the situation was so bad but he didn't.
It's easy to say "it's his fault, he should have done this" after it happened.
And yes for Rivenspire, it was maybe not a good idea to not choose himself a leader, but how could he imagine that the region would later be devastated by vampires ?
Of course, he made some mistake, but it's hypocrit to accuse him for all the *** that happened in Covenant's zones.
I suppose Jorunn is perfect and never makes any mistake ?

Nope. He isn't perfect either. He makes one large mistake; he didn't kill his brother at the first duel. Unlike Emeric Jorunn actively participates in the planning and fighting. When you rescue Emeric from the dream world nothing much changes. When you rescue Jorunn from the dream world he is part of carrying the fight to Thallick, and he's also there fighting Sinmur and gets the approval of Ysgramor. Definitely *not* what happens with Emeric in the afterlife. Not to mention Jorunn actually rectifies his mistake; defeat his brother, and Jorunn the king dispenses justice for treason and executes him in front of the alliance. By the way; Rivenspire already had had a civil war over who would rule. Emeric knew not picking a ruler wasn't a good idea, and I believe he tells you so when he sends you out to fix his mistake. He might not have foreseen vampires, but he knew not settling the question of the ruler wouldn't lead to sunshine rainbows and happiness. Even after the handy wandering adventurer slaughters their way through the legions of vampires and undead and settles the fighting, Emeric won't make a decision. He still leaves it up to the random wandering adventurer.

My biggest problem with Jorunn, honestly, isn't his reluctance to kill his brother. He's a Nord, they take kin seriously, so that makes sense to me. As you say, him changing that is part of his storyline.

Its the fact that his son Irnskar, his heir, acts like a little piece of ****. And yeah, his son gets a tiny bit better over the course of the questline as he realizes that "Huh, maybe I actually need the help of my allies to save my father and that means maybe I shouldn't insult them at every turn?" but if I judge the father by his son...I find myself less than impressed. Not that Irnskar is necessarily worse that some of the Dunmer we meet, but he doesn't exactly give me much hope for the survival of the Pact if we'd let Jorunn die.

But as I've said, its the flaws of the Alliance rulers that make them so interesting to me.

Ohtimbar

I don't want to agree, but I do. The Covenant quest line is the best by a wide margin. EP zones have some decent side quests, though to be honest I don't find many of the vanilla quests in this game to be especially memorable.

TheShadowScout

Grentek wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

To rule over all because they are "the altmer master race"? We here in the german speaking part of europe have had bad experiences with that sort of thing, you know...

I suppose you don't know anything about the reason why the Dominion fight, because it's not because "altmer master race".
It's TESO, not Skyrim get your lore up to date please.

Actually that is still -exactly- why they fight.
"Altmer supremacy" comes in two flavors after all, the nasty one as portrayed by the veiled heritage, "Bow down to the master race", and the condescending one from Ayrenn "Only -my- vision can guide you to a decent future, so the dominion must rule all no matter how many we have to kill and conquer to do so, its all for the greater good!".

I mean, what did you think they went after the ruby throne for? It is quite clear from several quest conversations that ayrenn thinks she is the only possible choice for the new "empress of tamriel", otherwise they would just have dug in at their borders and stubbornly defended their lands without ever bothering anyone who did not bother them, riiight?

Grentek wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

I mean, what do the others even fight for? To plant their high kings royal arse on the ruby throne?

Oh and, about that, that's exactly what Talos did. You know, that "awesome nordic warrior".

You mean, "going to do", right? From an ESO perspectve anyhow...
And yeah, in a way, although for him it will be a bit different, since he is not an outsider wanting to conquer the brken pieces of the empire, but an actual descendant of those loyal imperial citizens who just want to end the time of troubles for his home and restore the empire to its former glory... starting to fight for others, then ending up on the ruby throne himself thanks to alessias bloodline dripping down to him somewhere in the past (And I really hope that someday we might get a questline in western skyrim where we might save a "alessias heirs" family from daedric assassins that may in some centuries time brigh forth talos early-beard...)

Ashfen wrote: »

If you consider it's Emeric's fault if Stormhaven was invaded by a daedric lord, you can say the same for all the other storylines. Why are there problems in Ebonheart's regions ? Why did they the let problems grow ? It's a nonsense.

Well, I see it as how they handle things.
Could Emric have prevented the daedric mischief? Probably not.
But... how did he act before the story unfolded? He didn't! Only when presented with the evidence of the cults wrongdoings (by the vestige) does he outlaw them... before he is all "Oh, daedric cults? Let them have their fun, it may all work out" instead of taking the closer look to see which ones are harmless and which ones might be trying to poison dreams...

Ashfen wrote: »

When i read this, i just have the impression you are not objective...

Well, duh!
I am human, all I say there is MY OPINION!
Its not supposed to be objective, and anyone who tries to sell you THEIR opinion as "objective" is lying to you!
But then, that is why I added the "In my eyes..." bit, you know?

Ashfen wrote: »

The Covenant for example wants to restore the Empire and make Tamriel prosperous. It's not just the "put our king's ass on the throne" thing.

That is one way to see it, just like you could see WW-II as "*** only wanted to restore germany and make europe prosperous for the aryan race!" or the british empire, or ancient SPQR rome, or Napoleon Bonaparte, or Genghis Khan, or dozends of other would-be conquerors throughout history!
In the end though, it is still "plant their own rulers royal rear on the ruby throne and claim dominion over people who they would have to force to obey them by fire and sword, aka "conquer" - just with an "we are doing it for the greater good, honest" propaganda.

Ashfen wrote: »

Ayreen wants to rule because she doesn't trust anymore an Empire lead by humans after what happened.

So it is...what? "We have to conquer and rule our neighbors because we cannot trust them to govern themselves?" That sounds suspisciously like arguments made... by exactly the same people mentioned above, from ancient rome to napoleon to every other conqueror. How did that work out for those who succeeded for a while? Any irish or indian people here grateful to the british for their many years of "benevolent rule"? Did the african-americans cherish their years of slavery "because they could not be trusted to make their own decisions"?

Any way you turn it, forcing your sides rule unto neighbors who do not wish for it is a jerkling move. And no matter how many "good intentions" you pave that road with, it always leads to the same place...
If you disagree... then take a look at history.

Ashfen wrote: »

It's quite sad some people are just like "the Pact is the best faction because we're so nice, all the others factions are just *** who attack us without reason". ^^"

Well... they ARE!
Seriously, the pact has its own faults, and they are many. But the one fault they do not have is that they are not fighting to plant Jorunn on the ruby throne, they are just fighting as to not get conquered by the others (and get a bit of revenge for all the invasion stuff, and hatchlingkilling stuff, and coup attempt stuff...)

VaranisArano wrote: »

On the last point, to be entirely fair, the Pact doesnt actually do very much fighting abroad. There are a couple of areas where the Pact fights AD or DC, but nothing particularly memorable.

...AND most of those are not proper pact forces, but "dunmer pirates" or such... and they are all on the "one-quest raid" level, never the general theme for a full region or several...

VaranisArano wrote: »

But in my experience, the Pact questline gave me reasons and opportunity to really support my alliance against the attacks of the others in multiple, major, memorable questlines. The result was that as a Pact player I have a lot of concrete examples of why I want to defend my alliance against the others. Whereas AD and DC have more concrete examples of "This is why we should be in charge" from their questlines, which fits our alliances. The Pact is defensive in nature, wanting control because they don't trust the others, so their quest explains why. The others have a vision for Tamriel, and their quest is finding out if that vision will come to fruition.

EXACTLY!

Ashfen wrote: »

My reaction was more for the "the Pact are the only one worth fighting for, the other are just assh*le who wants to sit on the ruby throne" thing which is very subjective...

Well...

TheShadowScout wrote: »

In my eyes, they are the ONLY ones worth fighting for...

...I thought I was very, Very clear I WAS being entirely subjective there!

I was just speaking for my opinion, I dislike PvPing on the other alliances, because their backstories makes me feel like a imperialist jerk out to "conquer lebensraum", so I only go to cyrodil for the PvE questing on those and only PvP if attacked. PvP on ym pact characters on the other hand feels right and proper, thanks to their regional stories giving me the background as to WHY they are there, and its not to grind their boots into some poor schmucks neck, its to prevent their guys ending up with that boot on their necks!