Mathematics of the game

PancakeHead

Does anyone know how people seem to know all the mathematics of the game or what set(s) are better than others based on recent patches or the history of the game? Right now I see people saying mother's sorrow and burning spellweave are best in class for trials based on recent patches, but how does anyone know that? When I've written to the company asking how that stuff is calculated, they reply they want everyone to experience the game for themselves. I've spent hours farming sets only to be told they suck and then two months later be told they're great. People bash sioria and spell strategist as only being dummy good but then people doing flawless VMA have them equipped.

Was more just curious what resources people are using to determine this stuff because I don't find much help online.

Thanks.

SirAndy

The part you are missing is not the math but the fact that the self proclaimed "hardcore" players of this game label everything "trash" that is not the current meta, even if that "trash" performs within fractions of a percent of whatever the current meta set is.

At 50k+ (group buffed trial) dps, having a few hundred dps less on average won't make any difference for you as a player but for them that means you are wearing a "useless decon trash" set.

Until next patch, when your useless decon trash now all the sudden performs a few hundred dps above last weeks meta and now has become the one and only set to ever be usable ever again. Until the next patch.

Rinse and repeat ...

Gilvoth

@SirAndy said it best and spoke the truth.

i would like to add to that, and say:
best in slot: is the armor, weapon, clothing look, pet, or no pet, jewelry, race, class, skill choices, amount of DPS, and skin color best fit to you and the way you wish to play and makes you feel good and performs what YOU think it should be.

worst in slot: what you read in zone chat, and forum comment, and forum thread, and you tube video, and live streamer advice, and class rep advice, and guild chat advice, and whisper told you to wear, and use for skill, and dress like, and use for weapon and armor.

and also:
if you see a certain set works, go with it, if its not good enough then keep wearing it till you find better.

Izaki

SirAndy wrote: »

The part you are missing is not the math but the fact that the self proclaimed "hardcore" players of this game label everything "trash" that is not the current meta, even if that "trash" performs within fractions of a percent of whatever the current meta set is.

At 50k+ (group buffed trial) dps, having a few hundred dps less on average won't make any difference for you as a player but for them that means you are wearing a "useless decon trash" set.

Until next patch, when your useless decon trash now all the sudden performs a few hundred dps above last weeks meta and now has become the one and only set to ever be usable ever again. Until the next patch.

Rinse and repeat ...

Having played with some of those players you're referring to, this is entirely false. There aren't any laws for what gear to have in raids as long as you're pulling your weight in DPS. There are just the best sets which everyone tries to get, because they are the best, even if its by a tiny %. Doesn't mean that Veiled Heritance or Briarheart or Leviathan is considered trash compared to Advancing Yokeda. To add on to that, in certain situations, Advancing Yokeda leaves it top spot to one of the other "second best" sets. This is just the Stamina example obviously, but its also true for Magicka setups.

So this comment is for the most part, false (because obviously there are some guys like that, but they are in the minority). If you're referring to people who lecture others in LFG groups on what sets to wear, they aren't "hardcore players" or whatever you want to call them. Just dudes who saw a few YT videos.

hedna123b14_ESO

PancakeHead wrote: »

Does anyone know how people seem to know all the mathematics of the game or what set(s) are better than others based on recent patches or the history of the game? Right now I see people saying mother's sorrow and burning spellweave are best in class for trials based on recent patches, but how does anyone know that? When I've written to the company asking how that stuff is calculated, they reply they want everyone to experience the game for themselves. I've spent hours farming sets only to be told they suck and then two months later be told they're great. People bash sioria and spell strategist as only being dummy good but then people doing flawless VMA have them equipped.

Was more just curious what resources people are using to determine this stuff because I don't find much help online.

Thanks.

Contrary to the posters above here is the unbiased truth:
1. All of eso content can be completed with a multiple combination of sets. Many of them are viable in the sense that they provide a decent enough damage to complete all content.
2. However there are certain SPECIFIC set combinations which provide the BEST results in organized group content IF the group is good in soothe sense of coordinating team play in terms of buffs, debuffs and other team play features. In those instances (which all endgame groups pursue) there are definitely very specific sets you have to wear.
3. That being said there are only around 10-20 groups world wide that qualify for the group composition I mentioned above.
4. As far as measuring the actual math, that is calculated manually by knowing coefficients of skills and combat formulas or it can be done using the UESP website.

Chelo

At the end of the day is going to depend on your playstyle. I have all the "meta" Magicka DPS sets to switch whenever I want but I've never use Siroria because I know that with my playstyle I won't be able to maintain above 10 stacks.

I move A LOT... So Spell Strategist and Mother's Sorrow is what I end up using...

Bradyfjord

In terms of game mechanics, what is 'best' varies in a number of ways. This design seems to be intentional. We can unlock quite a few abilities and gear sets that can be changed as we need. This allows us to be what we need to be, if we want.

These are some situations that may change what gear sets and abilities are 'best':

1. Whether you are playing solo, random group, premade group.
2. Class/playstyle of people you are playing with/against (pve/pvp)
3. Content being played: Cyrodiil, Battle Grounds, Dungeons, Trials, Delves/Quests.
4. Personal Preferences

My point is to take any advice with a grain of salt. You are playing your way, and your situation can differ from what the meta currently is. If it isn't broke, then don't fix it.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

. Does anyone know how people seem to know all the mathematics of the game or what set(s) are better than others based on recent patches or the history of the game?

Lots and lots of testing in game, generally on dummys.

BejaProphet

The answer to your actual question is that games like this attract some truely brilliant people. These people could probably do some amazing things if their lives weren’t devoted to video games. But applying their exceptionalism to the game, the reverse engineer hidden game formulas, do insanely rigorous scientifically exact testing, and by the time they are done they legitimately understand this game better than most developers.

I’m not joking, there have been many occasions when players were giving info more reliable than ZOS employees.

Iskiab

BejaProphet wrote: »

The answer to your actual question is that games like this attract some truely brilliant people. These people could probably do some amazing things if their lives weren’t devoted to video games. But applying their exceptionalism to the game, the reverse engineer hidden game formulas, do insanely rigorous scientifically exact testing, and by the time they are done they legitimately understand this game better than most developers.

I’m not joking, there have been many occasions when players were giving info more reliable than ZOS employees.

Why do you assume they haven’t? There are lots of careers where it’s useful to be able to look over large amounts of information, dissect issues, and identify opportunities. Careers like investment management, software engineering and actuarial science come to mind.

Being able to keep your attention focused on small details is a great skill. Someone who can combine that with intuition can make serious
bank. Unfortunately having a high IQ (top 1 percentile) doesn’t correlate with earning power unless you choose the right career, but if you do they aren’t mutually exclusive.

BejaProphet

Im saying they absolutely could accomplish awesome things. I just usually get the impression that most of that potential has been invested into the game. I’m just making a generalization and an assumption, so take that for what little it’s worth. 🤷‍♂️

Regardless, the point of my post was to say that really smart people work really hard to figure it out.

Iskiab

Yea, I hear you. It’s probably a cyclical personality thing for most players. Rotate from MMOs, to investing, to work, to whatever. You have to keep the mind active so when you’re interested in something it becomes ‘how does this work?’ and then a game to perfect it (probably in devs minds break it).

It’s only unhealthy if it’s always in game (no matter what my partner says) and never applied anywhere else. I find myself investing into an MMO when work or other hobbies are boring and not stimulating. If I don’t think outside the game I want to analyze inside the game and vice versa. If I’m working on a RL project forget it, I don’t want to think at all when I log in.

JinMori

SirAndy wrote: »

The part you are missing is not the math but the fact that the self proclaimed "hardcore" players of this game label everything "trash" that is not the current meta, even if that "trash" performs within fractions of a percent of whatever the current meta set is.

At 50k+ (group buffed trial) dps, having a few hundred dps less on average won't make any difference for you as a player but for them that means you are wearing a "useless decon trash" set.

Until next patch, when your useless decon trash now all the sudden performs a few hundred dps above last weeks meta and now has become the one and only set to ever be usable ever again. Until the next patch.

Rinse and repeat ...

In 3 years of playing i have never heard someone being called out if he or she was doing good dps while not wearing the absolute bis set.

I don;t know where you guys get this from, but at this point i have to make an assumption, it's either that people just assume what other people are saying, or they don;t really understand the words, or someone tells them they suck because they do, and then strawman the argument to make it fit whatever they think it is, for example, this guy said that the gear i use suck, and so does my dps, therefore any gear that is not bis sucks, and if you don;t have it you might as well not join anything because people will call you out for it.

It did happen to me though, that some asked me what set i was using, and they didn't really bash me for using twice fanged even though it;s not the absolute bis, because i was pulling more than enough dps, what i got in chat was always really good group at the end of the dungeon, they didn't really care about which set i was using as long as i was doing well, and neither do i, but if you objectively suck, that's a different story.

So really, i think at this point if this really was true i should have at least encountered it once, but i never did.

Not saying that it could never happen, but definitely much more rare than what you guys seem to make it, you get kicked because you really suck usually not because of some player with a bad mood.

The point about siroria is this, siroria is a set that in mobile fight you will lose the uptime, but perfected siroria is almost always the best set for magicka, you only need i think 7 stacks for it to be better than julianos, which will happen quite easily, the normal version on the contrary is more prohibitive because it lacks a max magicka set bonus.

Also, no, bis is not a term that you can use to describe whatever, words have a meaning, in this case bis means best in slot, meaning the best piece of equipment you could get for that class, i don;t really care if you prefer fashion, but that's not what bis means.

SirAndy

Iskiab wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

The answer to your actual question is that games like this attract some truely brilliant people. These people could probably do some amazing things if their lives weren’t devoted to video games ...

Why do you assume they haven’t? There are lots of careers where it’s useful to be able to look over large amounts of information, dissect issues, and identify opportunities. Careers like investment management, software engineering and actuarial science come to mind.

Not implying i'm brilliant but i do work in scientific research as a computer programmer (used to work as a programmer in the gaming industry) and i also happen to like to play video games.

Having a satisfying career and enjoying playing games are not mutually exclusive ...

SirAndy

JinMori wrote: »

In 3 years of playing i have never heard someone being called out if he or she was doing good dps while not wearing the absolute bis set.

I have seen it many times both in-game and here on the forums (used to run with a serious trial guild for a while) ...

idk

SirAndy wrote: »

The part you are missing is not the math but the fact that the self proclaimed "hardcore" players of this game label everything "trash" that is not the current meta, even if that "trash" performs within fractions of a percent of whatever the current meta set is.

I sense a heavy does of salt here.

If talking about the top players of the game this comment is nothing but false. The top dps of this game to not take someone elses word for it that some set is the best. They decide what is best for them by testing and testing different sets, different skills, different rotations.

It is why they do so well. They do not follow, they lead. They also do not call any set trash. They just decide what is best for them. I have never seen or heard a true top player look down on anyone else and always have the time to answer a question or help other players.

They also know that top sets are not required to clear content. While the goals of their man raid group might be to get best scores, no deaths, etc, which does require doing the best DPS, many help other group that do not have such great DPS and they do it for the betterment of the game.

Then again, the top players do not sell proclaim themselves hardcore. They just play the game the way they enjoy playing it which is what everyone here does. So I doubt this person is talking about the best dps, etc, in the game.

SirAndy

idk wrote: »

I sense a heavy does of salt here

Is it that obvious?

idk

SirAndy wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I sense a heavy does of salt here

Is it that obvious?

Well, yes, since the first paragraph seemed so biased I found it difficult to see any truth in it. I thought I made that fairly clear.

Elsonso

JinMori wrote: »

In 3 years of playing i have never heard someone being called out if he or she was doing good dps while not wearing the absolute bis set.

The fact that ESO does not have an inspection feature helps curb this sort of thing. If ESO had an inspection, then people could kick non-conformists before they can do any damage. As it is, people can't just get this information freely, and unless there is a reason to ask, they never ask.

idk

lordrichter wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

In 3 years of playing i have never heard someone being called out if he or she was doing good dps while not wearing the absolute bis set.

The fact that ESO does not have an inspection feature helps curb this sort of thing. If ESO had an inspection, then people could kick non-conformists before they can do any damage. As it is, people can't just get this information freely, and unless there is a reason to ask, they never ask.

CP levels is more toxic in this game that gear level in other games.

Of course we are not talking about top players being toxic about CP as they are not the ones who complain about CP related stuff in the forums, nor are they the ones who kick a lower CP player from a group. They can carry the lower CP player easily in most cases.

Elsonso

idk wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

In 3 years of playing i have never heard someone being called out if he or she was doing good dps while not wearing the absolute bis set.

The fact that ESO does not have an inspection feature helps curb this sort of thing. If ESO had an inspection, then people could kick non-conformists before they can do any damage. As it is, people can't just get this information freely, and unless there is a reason to ask, they never ask.

CP levels is more toxic in this game that gear level in other games.

Of course we are not talking about top players being toxic about CP as they are not the ones who complain about CP related stuff in the forums, nor are they the ones who kick a lower CP player from a group. They can carry the lower CP player easily in most cases.

This game has a significant "player skill" component to combat. That is not unusual in an MMO, but I find that ESO seems to be tilted more in this direction. The right gear and high CP can get a player past the "inspection" but if they don't know how to weave and bob like a professional ballet dancer, they are not going to be doing the DPS that other group members want.

In those cases, whatever excuse is convenient will do. Gear. CP. Learn to Play. Kick them all!

Meanwhile, my assertion is that if the player is an expert and can dance and weave with the best of them, they can make up for gear and CP deficiencies and complete most PVE content in the game. In these cases, they can probably do enough DPS that no one is going to ask them what they are wearing under the costume. If anything.

PancakeHead wrote: »

Does anyone know how people seem to know all the mathematics of the game or what set(s) are better than others based on recent patches or the history of the game?

Was more just curious what resources people are using to determine this stuff because I don't find much help online.

This conversation strayed a bit from the what the OP said in the first sentence. Most of what I would be doing in this game related to math has to be divined from the game itself by carefully watching how the game performs under different circumstances using combat metric tools and other numbers. Tool tips cannot be trusted. Spreadsheets are very handy at collecting and storing this data.

I don't do this with ESO for reasons. First, I decided I just wanted to play this game and not be technical. Second, they change the game a lot, so I figure I would be doing rework quite a bit to make sure that the spreadsheet was still accurate. Third, I simply don't have the time to do all that, anymore.

My mathematical philosophy with this game is really simple. If I die before they do, bad. If they die before I do, good. I tweak accordingly. However, I have found that often what determines who dies first is the experience of the player, not the math behind the build.

JinMori

SirAndy wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

In 3 years of playing i have never heard someone being called out if he or she was doing good dps while not wearing the absolute bis set.

I have seen it many times both in-game and here on the forums (used to run with a serious trial guild for a while) ...

Whatever suits you man, as a matter of fact iv'e never kicked someone purely based on the sets they were using.

The fact is that usually people who are very good tend to run the best sets, or close to that, meaning that you will rarely see a good player in pve dps with seducer or things like that, because they already know better, but if there were, and they were doing well, i wouldn't kick them for that.

But i see that you seem to think that i would because in my prev post i said i would kick someone based on overall performance, yea, what a shocker right? If you really suck you get the boot, when i say suck i mean really terrible, like 5% or 7% of the total dps.

Nestor

This will get you started

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/209938/pts-2-1-2-sorcerer-arithmagic/p1

While the above is Magic, you can plug in Stamina and figure it out

There is a thread on damage mitigation by @paulsimonps but I don't have it bookmarked, but that covers the other side of the math.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Nestor wrote: »

This will get you started

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/209938/pts-2-1-2-sorcerer-arithmagic/p1

While the above is Magic, you can plug in Stamina and figure it out

There is a thread on damage mitigation by @paulsimonps but I don't have it bookmarked, but that covers the other side of the math.

that thread is very old. here are the best 2 right now-

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422268/a-comprehensive-guide-on-damage-dealing-in-elder-scrolls-online/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-for-murkmire/p1