Balance vs. Specialization: Thinking out loud

msalvia

I approach this topic as someone who mostly played CCGs prior to ESO, especially Magic: The Gathering. In case you aren't familiar, MTG has 5 colors, each with its own specializations, strengths, and weaknesses. And certain colors are better at fighting other colors (ex. a red burn deck is gonna struggle against any life gain, which white specializes in, so there is an inherent, but not overwhelming "rock-paper-scissors" quality to the game's balance). And while the analogy between MTG and ESO is not perfect, it at least illustrates a point.

That is, when all elements of a game (color in MTG, classes in ESO) are balanced to complete equality, we lose some of the fun and unique identity in a given element.

For example, consider DK's wings. DK is the worst class for mobility (perhaps tied with Templar), so to make up for that lack of mobility and range, they are given a skill that hoses a different kind of play style (i.e. ranged players). And while I don't complain about specific nerfs/changes, I'm not sure I like the idea of having all classes being more-or-less equal. In other words, I think it is a great gameplay element to have certain classes with inherent "edges" against other classes, even if that just means that certain classes are tankier, or more adept at damage or healing.

Do you agree? Should ESO be balanced for balance's sake, or should there be this kind of "rock-paper-scissors" quality to class interactions? There are obviously pros and cons to each, and I ultimately like the idea that I can roll any class as any role, but I fear that "leveling" the classes to the point where they don't feel as unique and specialized is going to make the game less interesting in the long term.

ShadowKyuubi

I agree that rock-paper-scissor idea is cool, but it goes against how ESO marketed their RPG experience. Because, despite what people think, ESO is an RPG first. One of those, be anything, at anytime sort of deal. Hence why the idea of "Balance", comes in. THis allows players, not all of whom are interested in fighting each other, be anything at anytime. Now, is it perfect right now? No. But I can tell you that it is a lot better than what it used to be. There are RPG games that have specializations and such, but ESO was never marketed that way and they should not try to be something they are not.

SirAndy

The only way to achieve real balance is to make every single build *exactly* the same.
That is the only way to ensure only player skill determines the outcome of a fight.

Now the question you have to ask yourself becomes rather simple:
Is this the kind of game you want ESO to be?

Solariken

Soft counters are great, hard counters are bad.

Old wings was a hard counter, new wings will be a soft counter. The damage output on DFS is potentially very high and borders on hard counter, but I guess we'll see how that plays out.

In general though I agree that fun should be prioritized over balance. Balance in PvP is subjective anyway so seems like a waste if time to pursue it. They should focus on making all classes FUN and versatile.

msalvia

ShadowKyuubi wrote: »

I agree that rock-paper-scissor idea is cool, but it goes against how ESO marketed their RPG experience. Because, despite what people think, ESO is an RPG first. One of those, be anything, at anytime sort of deal. Hence why the idea of "Balance", comes in. THis allows players, not all of whom are interested in fighting each other, be anything at anytime. Now, is it perfect right now? No. But I can tell you that it is a lot better than what it used to be. There are RPG games that have specializations and such, but ESO was never marketed that way and they should not try to be something they are not.

I'm not sure I follow you here--wasn't ESO at the beginning way more specialized? Weren't the classes kind of pigeon-holed into roles (DK=Tank, Templar=Healer, Sorc and NB=Damage)?

And as I said in my OP, I agree that be any class, any role is a good idea--but even by staying true to this, the skills within these classes can still be unique and specialized, no?

In other words, I don't think these two are mutually exclusive--ESO can BOTH be an RPG marketed for flexibility while still maintaining unique flavor and a kind of "scissors-rock-paper" approach for those of us who DO like the fight one another?

msalvia

SirAndy wrote: »

The only way to achieve real balance is to make every single build *exactly* the same.
That is the only way to ensure only player skill determines the outcome of a fight.

Now the question you have to ask yourself becomes rather simple:
Is this the kind of game you want ESO to be?

Not sure I follow...this is not at all what I am advocating. In fact, I came out pretty strongly AGAINST excessive "balancing" / leveling of classes.

msalvia

Solariken wrote: »

Soft counters are great, hard counters are bad.

Old wings was a hard counter, new wings will be a soft counter. The damage output on DFS is potentially very high and borders on hard counter, but I guess we'll see how that plays out.

In general though I agree that fun should be prioritized over balance. Balance in PvP is subjective anyway so seems like a waste if time to pursue it. They should focus on making all classes FUN and versatile.

Hmmm...maybe I am actually in favor or hard counters. I sincerely like that abilities can hose other abilities, especially for an ability like wings in the best tank class with the worst mobility. Seems to fit.

WOuld you consider something like streak a hard counter? As a DK I can't really do anything about it, just like that sorc can't do anything about my wings.

NOTE: This is not a sneaky wings cryfest, it's just the best example I can think of for the kind of ability I think is fun and healthy for combat.