I know its been talked about before..

FlopsyPrince

tmbrinks wrote: »

ZoS is on record as saying they don't want an central AH, they would need very compelling evidence to change that.

Most game makers have proclaimed they like it how it is and will never do X, whatever X is, only to later implement X.

The points have already been made, and repeated. You may not likely them, but quit insisting they must be made.

ZoS will likely not change, but how is that relevant, unless you are just a supporter who must stand behind their every action.

tmbrinks

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

ZoS is on record as saying they don't want an central AH, they would need very compelling evidence to change that.

Most game makers have proclaimed they like it how it is and will never do X, whatever X is, only to later implement X.

The points have already been made, and repeated. You may not likely them, but quit insisting they must be made.

ZoS will likely not change, but how is that relevant, unless you are just a supporter who must stand behind their every action.

You're not getting my point, and I'm not going to explain it a fourth time. Have a nice day.

tmbrinks

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6059005/#Comment_6059005

I'll leave this here from the thread in the general forum...

This wasn't some fly by decision they made on a whim, it was a well thought out, well researched, well documented problem from other games, that they knew would be an even larger problem with the "megaserver" technology that ESO was using. Thus, they wanted something that we decentralized, so that the problems from other MMOs weren't magnified in ESO. Something done with that much care and thought is going to need OVERWHELMING evidence to change, overwhelming evidence that going to a global AH wouldn't tank the entire economy, and frankly nobody has come anywhere close to providing that evidence. The most common reason for wanting it is simple laziness at not wanting to go to different guild stores, even though a majority of them are within a 15 second horse ride of a wayshrine in a major city.

Alexsai

These decisions are not made on who likes auction houses and who is happy in their trading guild and whether or not virtual markets are cornered. It is all about revenue. The game needs to generate revenue or it ceases to exist. The company must find the balance and make educated decisions - Subscriptions vs. store purchases. Free to play vs. pay to play vs. pay to win etc. Every game company struggles with the same decisions.

One would assume their balance of selling virtual items and obtaining and maintaining subscription customers is acceptable right now and the auction house does not further their financial interests but rather detracts from their sales. Meaning if I can't find a certain light to decorate a house because it is not easily available on an auction house, I give them my money instead.

But from a perspective of a former long term subscriber, I did not feel that I should NEED to give them more money to purchase items in the game because I already pay a subscription price monthly. And I already spent a ton of money beyond my monthly subscription in their HOUSING system which turned out to be without incentives to use them (for tons of reasons that have been talked about for months elsewhere). So as it became apparent with this guild or zone trading system that the time and play style required to do this most important of in game functions (gather resources/craft/buy and sell) was impossible for me, they took away my incentive to keep a craft bag AKA subscription account.

It is likely that the company already has crunched the numbers on trading systems (the game is doing well financially as I understand it) and considered they are willing to sacrifice the loss of some subscription customers like me who don't craft because they can't spend time doing that AND hours trying to run around the world to find stuff and be involved in guilds and zone chatting to buy the stuff they need and sell the stuff they make. Crafting alone is already a huge time sink, and hopefully a fun one, I've never crafted in this game because of the above reasons and will likely never know.

Having said that, these forums are FOR the purpose of exchanging ideas and enhancements to the game and asking questions; the company undoubtedly relies heavily on player input to make good financial decisions. And each person who plays (and pays) has a vested interest in their investment and the right to speak up. So there is not merit to anyone saying "if you don't like it, go away and play something else".

I would like to see the game be as good as it can be for all players. I'm disappointed for this not being my go to game anymore and the subscription price was not bad had their not been all the other need to pay cash to have a full player experience. But all companies will base decisions on what brings in the revenue or they will fold. So as a consumer I speak up and suggest that there is even a BETTER financial balance to maintain subscription player base but what do I know really. I have never developed or marketed a game. I just speak my truth and make my choices as a consumer. And that is how it works.

FlopsyPrince

Just because something was "thought out" does not mean it was right.

That does make it unlikely to change, but that is the norm in the game world, especially in MMOs. Change is less likely than not, though it can happen at times. See the overhaul of the map view and the ability to see the status of several actions in each zone.

That was a big change and took a lot of effort. I am sure some would have (and may have) argued that needing to navigate many menus deep to check which skyshards you have in a zone (for example) was planned and we should just accept it. Yet it changed and I definitely would have asked for something like this had been even bolder in the past.

Alexsai wrote: »

One would assume their balance of selling virtual items and obtaining and maintaining subscription customers is acceptable right now and the auction house does not further their financial interests but rather detracts from their sales. Meaning if I can't find a certain light to decorate a house because it is not easily available on an auction house, I give them my money instead.

Some interesting thoughts. I had not considered a push that way to the in-game pay store. I usually look for things that will never be sold in the in-game store - like gear and mats.

Would Necropotence gear go up or down in price with a Central AH? I am looking for a set for my CP160 pet sorc on the EU server now and the prices do vary, just within Alinor. I am not going to spend a significant amount of time going all over the place to find bargains. I would expect the prices would drop to a more reasonable level since selling the 100th Necropotence hands will make it less likely to try for a really high price. The likelihood of someone trying to corner the market on things and push prices up is not there, since too many exist and people will just farm their own if the price is too high (as I am doing).

It would be funny if someone drove this to make more Crown sales though.

I think the value for ZoS of the current system is as a gold sink more than anything else. It sucks gold out of the economy in the weekly bids. Meeting that in another manner would take some thought and that could be the main reason changes will not be considered.

Thrawniel

Tbh, if they wanted decentralized trading to avoid a handful of trade-dedicated people 'ruling' economy... they failed spectacularly.

Between MM, TTC and trading guild alliances all they did was to ensure that this handful of trade-dedicated people would be the only one to benefit from it.

Prices are getting unified anyways thanks to addons. Moguls can still easily buy out all the rare items they want and monopolize certain corners of trade just because majority of players won't travel the entire Tamriel in search for deals and will use traders closest to them. Which means most of good deals in out-of-the-way areas will go to top traders and will be flipped at upmark.

Casual players are at big disadvantage both in selling and buying. Buying is just obtuse and cumbersome. So most people will go to big trading cities just for the ease of access.

And guess who has their traders in those prime spots? The same handful of people!

New or just casual players won't be able or even willing to meet those guild requirements sales-wise. So they would have to join smaller guilds. Which would cause them to sell their stuff cheaper, to compensate for bad location. Which in turn is very beneficial for people in major guilds.

With centralized trading both casuals and hardcore players have equally easy access to both selling and buying. But ESO made sure to gate trading only to most hardcore traders.

I know people who just do not participate in the system at all, just because it is a major hassle.

Taleof2Cities

Thrawniel wrote: »

I know people who just do not participate in the system at all, just because it is a major hassle.

The major trading guilds have their spots through their own hard work and innovation ... not because the system is somehow “gated” by something ZOS did. Other guilds can take those spots on any given week ... if they dedicate the time and resources to be as good.

If players don’t want to spend the time to find a good deal ... that’s on them. It’s not a problem with the system.

tmbrinks

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Thrawniel wrote: »

I know people who just do not participate in the system at all, just because it is a major hassle.

The major trading guilds have their spots through their own hard work and innovation ... not because the system is somehow “gated” by something ZOS did. Other guilds can take those spots on any given week ... if they dedicate the time and resources to be as good.

If players don’t want to spend the time to find a good deal ... that’s on them. It’s not a problem with the system.

It's like me trying to buy a new part for my computer. I can go to Best Buy (the only electronics store within 50 miles of me) to but it now, and have it today, but I'll pay more

Or... I can go online, spend less, maybe find other selections, but have to wait a week for it to be shipped to me.

Just like the internet, having the decentralized systems means that people can't corner the market. Those on the outskirts can sell their items as well. Yes, they may have to sell less, to entice people to go out and buy there... some things might get "flipped" by the traders... remember, there's an 8% fee on all transactions, so the price has to be at least that much lower to make any profit... I don't see that big of a difference in the "big" things that sell (wax, alloy, rosin, materials, etc...) The only times you see that are for "rare" items, like motifs, patterns, etc.

You can choose to participate in the system, or not. There's nothing for sale that you can't get on your own. You can't sell trials gear, dungeon gear, etc... so you're not locked out of anything.

Thrawniel

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Thrawniel wrote: »

I know people who just do not participate in the system at all, just because it is a major hassle.

The major trading guilds have their spots through their own hard work and innovation ... not because the system is somehow “gated” by something ZOS did. Other guilds can take those spots on any given week ... if they dedicate the time and resources to be as good.

If players don’t want to spend the time to find a good deal ... that’s on them. It’s not a problem with the system.

Thank you for proving my point. Like, imagine person having only an hour or two of play a day, between work, chores and family. Maybe not even every day. Maybe they can play for couple of hours only on weekends.

And they happen to like raiding. Or pvp. And they spend their limited play time on those activities.

Not to mention that not everyone is interested in farming and trading on such level. Some people just come about a motif page or athereal dust now and then, and would love to sell it. But even mid-tier guilds require regular sales. Which is just not fun for those prople.

In any other game they would have same access to buying and selling system as the most hardcore trader who spends 20 hours a day playing the economy.

But in ESO those people are actively excluded from player economy.

It's like saying that only Grand Overlords should have access to Battlegrounds, and people should not be allowed there if they do not wish to work hard for it.

Thrawniel

tmbrinks wrote: »

It's like me trying to buy a new part for my computer. I can go to Best Buy (the only electronics store within 50 miles of me) to but it now, and have it today, but I'll pay more

Or... I can go online, spend less, maybe find other selections, but have to wait a week for it to be shipped to me.

Just like the internet, having the decentralized systems means that people can't corner the market.

But this it quite literally the opposite of what happens in ESO.

Internet here would be global trading system. The convenience of having access to both big and small shops from one convenient spot.

Using your analogy, ESO system is a world before online trade. So you have your Best Buy and the likes, and bunch of small family-owned shops..

So your options will be either to go to one place that has a great selection of items, but might have higher prices, or spend a week travelling around with Yellow Pages and a map, looking for those small shops. But you have no idea if they have what you need or have better prices. So you might end up wasting a lot of time and still have to go to a big store in the end.

tmbrinks

Thrawniel wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

It's like me trying to buy a new part for my computer. I can go to Best Buy (the only electronics store within 50 miles of me) to but it now, and have it today, but I'll pay more

Or... I can go online, spend less, maybe find other selections, but have to wait a week for it to be shipped to me.

Just like the internet, having the decentralized systems means that people can't corner the market.

But this it quite literally the opposite of what happens in ESO.

Internet here would be global trading system. The convenience of having access to both big and small shops from one convenient spot.

Using your analogy, ESO system is a world before online trade. So you have your Best Buy and the likes, and bunch of small family-owned shops..

So your options will be either to go to one place that has a great selection of items, but might have higher prices, or spend a week travelling around with Yellow Pages and a map, looking for those small shops. But you have no idea if they have what you need or have better prices. So you might end up wasting a lot of time and still have to go to a big store in the end.

Yup, and some people like that thrill of finding a deal, even if it means hunting for it. Others just want their stuff as fast as possible. This system allows for both people to do that. And with price differences that are measure in the single percentage points for the most used items, nobody is getting ripped off.

ESO wanted to do something unique with the trader system. They did exactly that.

If they change it, how are you going to accommodate for the loss of the gold sink that this system uses to keep inflation in check?

xilfxlegion

tmbrinks wrote: »

Thrawniel wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

It's like me trying to buy a new part for my computer. I can go to Best Buy (the only electronics store within 50 miles of me) to but it now, and have it today, but I'll pay more

Or... I can go online, spend less, maybe find other selections, but have to wait a week for it to be shipped to me.

Just like the internet, having the decentralized systems means that people can't corner the market.

But this it quite literally the opposite of what happens in ESO.

Internet here would be global trading system. The convenience of having access to both big and small shops from one convenient spot.

Using your analogy, ESO system is a world before online trade. So you have your Best Buy and the likes, and bunch of small family-owned shops..

So your options will be either to go to one place that has a great selection of items, but might have higher prices, or spend a week travelling around with Yellow Pages and a map, looking for those small shops. But you have no idea if they have what you need or have better prices. So you might end up wasting a lot of time and still have to go to a big store in the end.

Yup, and some people like that thrill of finding a deal, even if it means hunting for it. Others just want their stuff as fast as possible. This system allows for both people to do that. And with price differences that are measure in the single percentage points for the most used items, nobody is getting ripped off.

ESO wanted to do something unique with the trader system. They did exactly that.

If they change it, how are you going to accommodate for the loss of the gold sink that this system uses to keep inflation in check?

agreed --- i dont not farm normal stuff --- i farm traders --- i buy low and sell high. --- but i have to go to a ton of traders to do it --- but when you find those awesome deals it is well worth it.

the auction house idea has been beaten to death on these forums for years now --- zos has stated they will never have a global auction house. which is good, because it would ruin the game.

FlopsyPrince

xilfxlegion wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Thrawniel wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

It's like me trying to buy a new part for my computer. I can go to Best Buy (the only electronics store within 50 miles of me) to but it now, and have it today, but I'll pay more

Or... I can go online, spend less, maybe find other selections, but have to wait a week for it to be shipped to me.

Just like the internet, having the decentralized systems means that people can't corner the market.

But this it quite literally the opposite of what happens in ESO.

Internet here would be global trading system. The convenience of having access to both big and small shops from one convenient spot.

Using your analogy, ESO system is a world before online trade. So you have your Best Buy and the likes, and bunch of small family-owned shops..

So your options will be either to go to one place that has a great selection of items, but might have higher prices, or spend a week travelling around with Yellow Pages and a map, looking for those small shops. But you have no idea if they have what you need or have better prices. So you might end up wasting a lot of time and still have to go to a big store in the end.

Yup, and some people like that thrill of finding a deal, even if it means hunting for it. Others just want their stuff as fast as possible. This system allows for both people to do that. And with price differences that are measure in the single percentage points for the most used items, nobody is getting ripped off.

ESO wanted to do something unique with the trader system. They did exactly that.

If they change it, how are you going to accommodate for the loss of the gold sink that this system uses to keep inflation in check?

agreed --- i dont not farm normal stuff --- i farm traders --- i buy low and sell high. --- but i have to go to a ton of traders to do it --- but when you find those awesome deals it is well worth it.

the auction house idea has been beaten to death on these forums for years now --- zos has stated they will never have a global auction house. which is good, because it would ruin the game.

And that is the exact flaw with the current system, however much it has been discussed. You have to dedicate significant time to things to get a decent price/bargain.

Comparing it to online shopping, as someone else did, is idiotic. Amazon may no longer be the absolute cheapest, but it is close and I can often have things that afternoon, 2 days at the most in almost all cases. That is how much time I would have to dedicate to shopping in the guild trader system, instead of leveling characters, etc.

This system is horrible, but enough people like it to always support it in the forums. ZoS likes it enough that it doesn't appear to be changing anytime soon, but that doesn't make it a good system.

Note that the reply I quoted illustrates the exact problem we would supposedly get with a central AH. He is buying low and ramping up the price. That is the exact cornering the market problem several who claim to love this system say a central AH would bring.

I did ask in another thread how to find good prices for buying or selling things and got very little response. That is because the current system sucks for that. The PC may have addons that help, but consoles are out of luck on that and stuck with a subpar system some love due to their own benefits from it.

Disturbed_One

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

xilfxlegion wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Thrawniel wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

It's like me trying to buy a new part for my computer. I can go to Best Buy (the only electronics store within 50 miles of me) to but it now, and have it today, but I'll pay more

Or... I can go online, spend less, maybe find other selections, but have to wait a week for it to be shipped to me.

Just like the internet, having the decentralized systems means that people can't corner the market.

But this it quite literally the opposite of what happens in ESO.

Internet here would be global trading system. The convenience of having access to both big and small shops from one convenient spot.

Using your analogy, ESO system is a world before online trade. So you have your Best Buy and the likes, and bunch of small family-owned shops..

So your options will be either to go to one place that has a great selection of items, but might have higher prices, or spend a week travelling around with Yellow Pages and a map, looking for those small shops. But you have no idea if they have what you need or have better prices. So you might end up wasting a lot of time and still have to go to a big store in the end.

Yup, and some people like that thrill of finding a deal, even if it means hunting for it. Others just want their stuff as fast as possible. This system allows for both people to do that. And with price differences that are measure in the single percentage points for the most used items, nobody is getting ripped off.

ESO wanted to do something unique with the trader system. They did exactly that.

If they change it, how are you going to accommodate for the loss of the gold sink that this system uses to keep inflation in check?

agreed --- i dont not farm normal stuff --- i farm traders --- i buy low and sell high. --- but i have to go to a ton of traders to do it --- but when you find those awesome deals it is well worth it.

the auction house idea has been beaten to death on these forums for years now --- zos has stated they will never have a global auction house. which is good, because it would ruin the game.

And that is the exact flaw with the current system, however much it has been discussed. You have to dedicate significant time to things to get a decent price/bargain.

Comparing it to online shopping, as someone else did, is idiotic. Amazon may no longer be the absolute cheapest, but it is close and I can often have things that afternoon, 2 days at the most in almost all cases. That is how much time I would have to dedicate to shopping in the guild trader system, instead of leveling characters, etc.

This system is horrible, but enough people like it to always support it in the forums. ZoS likes it enough that it doesn't appear to be changing anytime soon, but that doesn't make it a good system.

Note that the reply I quoted illustrates the exact problem we would supposedly get with a central AH. He is buying low and ramping up the price. That is the exact cornering the market problem several who claim to love this system say a central AH would bring.

I did ask in another thread how to find good prices for buying or selling things and got very little response. That is because the current system sucks for that. The PC may have addons that help, but consoles are out of luck on that and stuck with a subpar system some love due to their own benefits from it.

2 DAYS to shop the guild traders? You and I must be playing different games...

Most I've spent is like 30 minutes... with the new text search, I can just type in what I'm looking for and check very quickly if that stall has it.

Yes, it sometimes sucks having to go to 5, 10 stalls to find what I'm looking for, but it's better than the inevitable monopolization that would occur under a global AH for necessities.

Generally it's only "difficult" if you're searching for specifics, the necessities are available at almost every single stall.

preevious

Well, I quite like the system, as well.

Sure, it can be time consuming, but it allows you to make quite a bit of coin when you get used to it. Of course, it takes time, but not that much. I'm able to go to loads of trader within 30-60 minutes and find a few good deal each time I do that.

it can be a pain, sure, when I desperately look for something specific, but then, I use the TTC site, and I'm able to find it quite reliably. Sure, when using TTC, if you go to an item last seen 3 days ago, or to an item listed at half market price, odds are that it will already have been sold.
You can't use TTC to hunt deals, but you can certainly use it to find normally-prived items.

tmbrinks

preevious wrote: »

Well, I quite like the system, as well.

Sure, it can be time consuming, but it allows you to make quite a bit of coin when you get used to it. Of course, it takes time, but not that much. I'm able to go to loads of trader within 30-60 minutes and find a few good deal each time I do that.

it can be a pain, sure, when I desperately look for something specific, but then, I use the TTC site, and I'm able to find it quite reliably. Sure, when using TTC, if you go to an item last seen 3 days ago, or to an item listed at half market price, odds are that it will already have been sold.
You can't use TTC to hunt deals, but you can certainly use it to find normally-prived items.

Oh boy... now that you've mentioned TTC... the console players are going to jump all over you because they don't have access to it!

(I hate TTC personally, I think it sucks, because as you said, the things are regularly sold out already)

preevious

***? There's a place, on the site, where you can choose ps4 and xbox .. that doesn't work?
Now that I think about it, I don't quite see how it could be populated

I'm sorry for you, console players; it's true that add-on can massively improve the game

FlopsyPrince

preevious wrote: »

***? There's a place, on the site, where you can choose ps4 and xbox .. that doesn't work?
Now that I think about it, I don't quite see how it could be populated

I'm sorry for you, console players; it's true that add-on can massively improve the game

But things work fine as they are, right? An external site is almost REQUIRED to play that part of the game, yet so many fail to see the problem.