Stam sorcs and Stam dks

Ayastigi

What's so bad about them being forced to used weapon skills? Seriously those are as close to knight/warrior classes as we get...why wouldn't they be focused on on 2handers and a sword and shield? I'm confused about the class identity argument and think people just want their own animation or something. Help me to understand these differing perspectives

Ryknos

Ayastigi wrote: »

Seriously those are as close to knight/warrior classes as we get...

Templar is definitely ranged class.

Morgul667

Stamsorc has no spammable hence is using weapon skills

Stamsorc complajn because they have nothing for a long time

VaranisArano

Disclaimer: I play several Stam Sorcs.

Whether or not any of this bothers you is mostly down to player preference.

First, one stam build mostly plays the same as any other. They all use the same weapon skills, with the only real difference being the class skills.

Second, the stam sorc and stam DK have very limited options and utility from their stamina class skills compared to other stamina builds. Stam Sorcs are very AOE focused, while StamDKs get DOTs. The current gold standard in terms of options is the Stam Warden, who gets stamina burst damage, stamina ranged damage, stamina heals, stam sustain, and a stamina oriented pet.

So where stam sorc and stam DK suffer is that when you look at stamina builds, there's not a whole lot of reason to choose them over the other stam builds unless you specifically want to play them in ways that play to their strengths. Stam DKs, for example, make really good tanks.

I enjoy the synergy that Stam Sorcs get from stacking AOEs, so it doesnt bother me as much.

Or if you'd prefer a different explanation, Stam Sorcs and Stam DKs are envious of how much use MagDKs and MagSorcs get out of their class's signature skills. Most of the DK tanking skills cost magicka. Most of the sorcerer's skills, likewise. On one hand, the magicka focus makes a lot of sense- those are caster classes, and ZOS originally designed the classes for everyone to use magicka. On the other hand, we've seen ZOS do a really good with stamina for the warden and now necro, so its a little more annoying when players consider that their class seems to not be getting the same sort of attention or opportunities

Zavijah

Because they are a class, and shouldn't be defined by the weapon they use.

Using your logic, then Magicka users shouldn't feel upset at using Destruction bar skills for 4 out of 5 abilities, but they are apparently their staff; not their class.

Ayastigi

VaranisArano wrote: »

Disclaimer: I play several Stam Sorcs.

Or if you'd prefer a different explanation, Stam Sorcs and Stam DKs are envious of how much use MagDKs and MagSorcs get out of their class's signature skills. Most of the DK tanking skills cost magicka. Most of the sorcerer's skills, likewise. On one hand, the magicka focus makes a lot of sense- those are caster classes, and ZOS originally designed the classes for everyone to use magicka. On the other hand, we've seen ZOS do a really good with stamina for the warden and now necro, so its a little more annoying when players consider that their class seems to not be getting the same sort of attention or opportunities

I see what you're saying here. That's the thing it's seems to me that every class is innately a magicka class and it makes sense that when you opt to stamina you're not gonna be using as many class skills. Warden and necro having good stam morphs is more of a product of them being next-gen classes so it does look like zos is trying to offer more stam class skills but the idea of stamina class skills still don't make as much sense to me because they just seem like magicka abilities that use your stam pool. I think you're right though that it is people being envious of how much utility magicka specced classes get out of their class abilities

Demra

Because the weapon skills are kinda meh. I like playing 2h / bow in every fantasy game i play. So being stam sorc in this game i need to choose between dizzy swing or snipe to do any damage in pvp. Those skills suck and just got further nerfed. I did get carve in return but honestly i think i had enough.

Canned_Apples

Dark Deal > class spammables

Mettaricana

Morgul667 wrote: »

Stamsorc has no spammable hence is using weapon skills

Stamsorc complajn because they have nothing for a long time

I agree to this we're not in a bad spot but we're a very very very bland stale spot dw and bow or 2h and bow... no class spams heck our bar if lucky has 2 sorc skills on it.. rest are guild, world, or weapon skills.

GeorgeBlack

Ayastigi wrote: »

What's so bad about them being forced to used weapon skills? Seriously those are as close to knight/warrior classes as we get...why wouldn't they be focused on on 2handers and a sword and shield? I'm confused about the class identity argument and think people just want their own animation or something. Help me to understand these differing perspectives

The problem is not about the weapon skills.
The problem is that we cannot use Class tools since they all cost magika.
StamDKs need a couple more stamina tools to feel like a dragon knight. A couple of the following:
Stamina Wings (unique skill)
Stamina Talons (group tool)
Stamina Deep Breath (AoE tool)
Stamina Stone Fist (class CC)
Stamina Chain (gap closer)

Then the other problem is our passives. As things are our passives need to help with all abilities be it resource managment or damage bonus. Not just the usage of class abilities. They are all magika.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

Ayastigi wrote: »

What's so bad about them being forced to used weapon skills? Seriously those are as close to knight/warrior classes as we get...why wouldn't they be focused on on 2handers and a sword and shield? I'm confused about the class identity argument and think people just want their own animation or something. Help me to understand these differing perspectives

What is the issue with weapon skills on Sta Sorc and Sta DK?

Those 2 are the only one I am using 2H also, the rest are DW btw. There is issue right now we need to use crushing weapon, but not after next month. Especially with the upcoming changes to Cleave/Carve/Brawler, using a master 2H weapons (like Maul for the extra penetration), using Cleave as spammable (has shorter animation duration which can be more easily weaved than 2h crushing weapon) it will send our 2H damage through the roof.

Hell having looked at it on PTS, it feels that we could lose the 2nd bonus from Monster Helm and not care about it given the damage changes there. In addition with Briar + Levi it would work wonders.

MaleAmazon

Stamsorcs are great IMO, they just don´t have superb class stamina-using skills. However they have:

Physical damage passive, other very useful passives, encase and defensive rune (both great CC skills), they have a very nice
magicka dump in dark deal, they have bound armaments, they have lightning form, surge, and you might even find room for haunting curse for its stealth breaking utility.

TLDR: stamsorcs are amazing. Probably partly because they somehow manage to portray patch changes that boost them as 'destroying our class'

Chilly-McFreeze

Why it‘s an issue? Because you have nothing to fill the gaps weapon lines intentionally left, bc you have to slot more abilities to reach the same effective level of more packed up classes and because it doesn’t feel like a class at all in some cases.

MaxJrFTW

If you play a sorcerer, you want to use sorcerer skills. That simple really.

MaleAmazon

Well the only thing stamsorcs actually lack is a stam-scaling spammable. IMO crystal shards could get one stam-morph.

Alucardo

There's nothing wrong with using weapon skills. I wouldn't be so salty if stam sorc had half the utility that DKs have. Give me an ultimate, give me a resistance debuff, give me a DoT. Give me something.

Browiseth

stam sorcs need a few things:
- make dark deal worthwhile. add minor berserk after cast? some kind additional utility
- air atronarch morph of storm atro that deals physical damage
- increase duration of hurricane to 20 seconds
- don't need a spammable, weapon skills are just fine
- have bound armour summon a floating sword to periodically strike at enemies

stam dks need:
- to stop whining tbh
- maybe make dragon leap worth using over dawnbreaker

Ayastigi

After listening to everybody's arguments it does sound like stam sorc could benefit from a physical damage class ultimate. Stam dk does seem better off comparatively though.

John_Falstaff

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

Ayastigi wrote: »

What's so bad about them being forced to used weapon skills? Seriously those are as close to knight/warrior classes as we get...why wouldn't they be focused on on 2handers and a sword and shield? I'm confused about the class identity argument and think people just want their own animation or something. Help me to understand these differing perspectives

What is the issue with weapon skills on Sta Sorc and Sta DK?

Those 2 are the only one I am using 2H also, the rest are DW btw. There is issue right now we need to use crushing weapon, but not after next month. Especially with the upcoming changes to Cleave/Carve/Brawler, using a master 2H weapons (like Maul for the extra penetration), using Cleave as spammable (has shorter animation duration which can be more easily weaved than 2h crushing weapon) it will send our 2H damage through the roof.

Hell having looked at it on PTS, it feels that we could lose the 2nd bonus from Monster Helm and not care about it given the damage changes there. In addition with Briar + Levi it would work wonders.

Not really relevant while 2H remains inferior to DW. No matter how hard Cleave is buffed, it won't bring 2H on par with dual wield on higher level, and I'd blame the lack of dagger counterpart in 2H line. Crit is too important for organized PvE, so stamDKs and stamsorcs will remain behind if they'll resort to 2H.

perditioner

The lack of stamina class skills is an issue for all classes to a certain degree. I have a stamina templar, warden, dk, sorc, nightblade, and there doesn't seem to be much point in using any of them over another as the abilities used on them are all the same, it's so boring. There's no class identity. Some are better than others, and my dk and sorc are the worst as if I followed meta builds for both they'de be identical aside from a single skill (including equipment). Having played around with necro on pts, and seeing how much more fun and different they play, I wish they would go back to these classes and fix their abilities.

Armann

Nothing wrong with using weapon skill as a stam spec. I like the fact that stamDK and stamSorc rely on them. I don't equip weapons as ornament, I want to use them and their associated skills.

I don't want a stamwhip, looking like a green version of a magDK is not a unique identity. For Sorc I want Air atro and a version of Bound armaments worth using.

Solariken

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Ayastigi wrote: »

What's so bad about them being forced to used weapon skills? Seriously those are as close to knight/warrior classes as we get...why wouldn't they be focused on on 2handers and a sword and shield? I'm confused about the class identity argument and think people just want their own animation or something. Help me to understand these differing perspectives

The problem is not about the weapon skills.
The problem is that we cannot use Class tools since they all cost magika.
StamDKs need a couple more stamina tools to feel like a dragon knight. A couple of the following:
Stamina Wings (unique skill)
Stamina Talons (group tool)
Stamina Deep Breath (AoE tool)
Stamina Stone Fist (class CC)
Stamina Chain (gap closer)

Then the other problem is our passives. As things are our passives need to help with all abilities be it resource managment or damage bonus. Not just the usage of class abilities. They are all magika.

If you want all that why not just be a magDk???

Seriously it really bugs me how much the word "stamina" really just means green magicka in this game, and they make it worse with every update. It's beyond silly.

John_Falstaff

@Solariken , because, you know, it is green magicka. If you'll look around, then you'll find that all stamina specs are still casters, they just use different resource - it's not unlike the difference in D&D between wizards and, say, sorcerers or monks; one uses mana, another uses innate strength or what have you. Stamina specs in ESO aren't just grunts, it's a fantasy game, not a medieval warfare simulator. Everyone has supernatural power, stamina spec just draws from different energy pool, so shouldn't lock stamina into the meager diversity of swashbuckling.

Solariken

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Solariken , because, you know, it is green magicka. If you'll look around, then you'll find that all stamina specs are still casters, they just use different resource - it's not unlike the difference in D&D between wizards and, say, sorcerers or monks; one uses mana, another uses innate strength or what have you. Stamina specs in ESO aren't just grunts, it's a fantasy game, not a medieval warfare simulator. Everyone has supernatural power, stamina spec just draws from different energy pool, so shouldn't lock stamina into the meager diversity of swashbuckling.

Right @John_Falstaff, but doesn't that strike you as silly?

Why does there need to be a "stamina morph" of magic abilities? I'll admit that even some of the weapon lines have some ridiculous/magical mechanics.

Stamina specs should be designed around physical and mental fortitude, not slinging re-colored spells.

I'm totally on board with scaling damage on highest resource as a sort of band-aid fix for retaining class identity, but when you get into things like summoning shalks and cliff racers using your "stamina" it gets a little stupid in my opinion.

Nemesis7884

I do like the channges to curve and flurry which might work nicely for these 2, also that the blade cloak is now a dot... i do think both classes could use one or 2 more stam morphs tough...especially DK feels a bit bland.... but than again, i also wished the graveyard morph from necro that lets u use your own synergy was a stam morph

Browiseth

Solariken wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Solariken , because, you know, it is green magicka. If you'll look around, then you'll find that all stamina specs are still casters, they just use different resource - it's not unlike the difference in D&D between wizards and, say, sorcerers or monks; one uses mana, another uses innate strength or what have you. Stamina specs in ESO aren't just grunts, it's a fantasy game, not a medieval warfare simulator. Everyone has supernatural power, stamina spec just draws from different energy pool, so shouldn't lock stamina into the meager diversity of swashbuckling.

Right @John_Falstaff, but doesn't that strike you as silly?

Why does there need to be a "stamina morph" of magic abilities? I'll admit that even some of the weapon lines have some ridiculous/magical mechanics.

Stamina specs should be designed around physical and mental fortitude, not slinging re-colored spells.

I'm totally on board with scaling damage on highest resource as a sort of band-aid fix for retaining class identity, but when you get into things like summoning shalks and cliff racers using your "stamina" it gets a little stupid in my opinion.

@Solariken it's a direct response to stam players like myself whining about a lack of class identity for years. as i understand, weapon skills have always been intended to primarily take up a stam build's bar, but there just isn't enough of them, and so many of them aren't good enough to warrant being on a player's bar.

most players have ignored this problem, and instead created a new problem, that being "class skills aren't stam based enough." zos are far too good at listening to the playerbase for they're own good

John_Falstaff

Solariken wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Solariken , because, you know, it is green magicka. If you'll look around, then you'll find that all stamina specs are still casters, they just use different resource - it's not unlike the difference in D&D between wizards and, say, sorcerers or monks; one uses mana, another uses innate strength or what have you. Stamina specs in ESO aren't just grunts, it's a fantasy game, not a medieval warfare simulator. Everyone has supernatural power, stamina spec just draws from different energy pool, so shouldn't lock stamina into the meager diversity of swashbuckling.

Right @John_Falstaff, but doesn't that strike you as silly?

Why does there need to be a "stamina morph" of magic abilities? I'll admit that even some of the weapon lines have some ridiculous/magical mechanics.

Stamina specs should be designed around physical and mental fortitude, not slinging re-colored spells.

I'm totally on board with scaling damage on highest resource as a sort of band-aid fix for retaining class identity, but when you get into things like summoning shalks and cliff racers using your "stamina" it gets a little stupid in my opinion.

Well, I suppose that's already a different concern entirely. Yes, it is a lazy design, to just slightly change animation, make it a stamina morph and call it a day. It'd make a poor gameplay if magicka spec would be no different in playstyle, feel, unique style and identity from magicka counterpart. Of all things, I wouldn't want to be a carbon copy of magDK, just with different color of the whip and poison damage instead of fire, what's even the point of having stam spec if it's not giving the feel of being something different.

That said, I guess that system of morphs is the limitation. Not a whole lot of space to put new skills; making a morph that has nothing in common with base skill doesn't feel right either. And selecting some base skills to mark them as stamina-only, including morphs, is apparently not something ZOS would be willing to do.

Universe

If I had to guess, I would say that the Sorcerer class was originally created for magicka type of combat only.
It still performs better with magicka builds.

MaleAmazon

It´s because the system was messed up from the start. IIRC, basically, everything in the class skills trees was magicka based but staff LA/HA used weapon dmg for some reason, not spell. I´m not entirely sure though, what with ESO being The Most Opaque System Ever (tm).

The current system is at least better.

Browiseth

Universe wrote: »

If I had to guess, I would say that the Sorcerer class was originally created for magicka type of combat only.
It still performs better with magicka builds.

incorrect. all classes and their skill lines were originally made for magicka builds only. weapon skills were originally the intended choice for stamina based builds.

Nemesis7884

Im wondering why they dont just turn the underused magicka morphs into stam ones