Am I Wrong for thinking Werewolves are trash?

msalvia

They just seem so poorly designed--does allowing players to do solid dps by just spamming light attacks support bad dps technique? I mean, if the basic techniques of playing a dps are rotation and weaving--and you need neither for WW--doesn't playing a WW support bad play?

And please, before the litany of "you're an elitist" or "I can play how I want," I am making an objective point about the existing combat system and how WWs seem to exist outside this system. So if you love spamming light attacks, do your thing! I just don't get the WW combat system from a developer's standpoint, since playing a WW dps does NOTHING to prepare you to be an actual dps in this game.

Bracing for the inevitable doggo attack...

Plasma_Elf

I think WW will always take less skill simply because they only have 1 bar to manage.. and like you said they pretty much only light attack spam.

GrumpyDuckling

I like when I see a Werewolf DPS doing light attacks because at least they'll do damage and be more likely to follow mechanics because the build is simple.

The experiences I don't like are the random DPS players in dungeon finder who try to play the crazy intensive Youtuber builds and die to the simplest mechanics because they are distracted/obsessed by playing someone else's build exactly as they saw in the video (which, by the way was against a stationary target skeleton without actual footage of the build in action).

I don't think you're wrong, I just see the existence of simple Werewolf builds as more helpful than not.

VaranisArano

It depends on what content you are doing. I tend to see the "Werewolves are OP in below 50 BGs" complaints, so werewolves aren't trash in all content.

The only time I absolutely never want to see a werewolf (transformed) is when they are the Tank, because ZOS in their infinite wisdom chose not to give werewolves any form of taunt or way to hold boss aggro.

Goregrinder

It's been the same design since like 2014. We were trash for everything outside niche pvp builds for like 4 years, then suddenly they buff our damage, and now people are made that WW is a viable playstyle choice for people who want to play that way.

Where were you in 2014 screaming at ZOS to buff WW because they sucked so much back then? Nowhere.

m2rc

WW is fun as heck and pretty viable for anything that isn't dungeons or trials.

I_killed_Vivec

It's the ultimate beserker - jump in and start rending... no thought for defence!

That's why you only need one bar - jump in, howl, slash and eat. In fact I wouldn't mind a reduced bar - give the WW insane strength and health but no heals or skills apart from the leap. So literally all you can do is pile in and start slashing and biting.

This is fun for some people. If you don't like it then don't do it, but there's no need to take away someone else's fun.

mague

msalvia wrote: »

Bracing for the inevitable doggo attack...

LOL. Ever played one ? The WW is the most balanced build in the whole game. Heal, cc, debuff, gap closer and DoT's. If you just use light attack with a real (lots of STAM) build you miss a lot.

I just wished they would have made the Warden's bear ultimate a similar shapeshifting and well balanced build without a time limit.

kylewwefan

What can you say. If I’m on a tank and a WW or 2 shows up in a random dungeon; at least I know there will be some good damage going out.

Can’t say the same for double bow build some nub tried to copy; or mag nightblade some guy plays to %10 efficiency. Cause that would be me.

Don’t be jealous that all this guy has to do is put a build together and LIght Attack his way to victory. There’s far worse things we have to deal with.

Alright. I’m a little (a lot ) jealous too. It’s a hard pill to swallow. But some of us aren’t that good. No matter how much time we put in learning some convoluted rotation. You may be far better off with something simple.

WW is simple. Not all the time practical, but simple.

Skelfish

I would say it's "trash" for most experienced ESO players because at its core werewolf is a selfish build traditionally without without much group utility. Staying alive in group content is priority, followed by how much utility you bring, then dps, then "can you follow mechanics."

It's still a fairly niche play style outside of BGs even though many people consider it easymode dps. This can be the case if your human form is already built halfway decent for stamina dps, but tanks and inexperienced casual players who don't necessarily pay attention to gear sets will use it as a crutch while also doing terrible damage.

In capable hands werewolf can be powerful, but it also develops your skills in a different way. As an experienced person you already have learned what the expectations are for what your skill press rotation should be, when to use your group utility skills, and all sorts of other button presses. With a werewolf your focuses are less on skill rotation and more on situational awareness to stay out of danger, be able to target highest priority threats, manage the skill duration, etc.
Healers and tanks already learn to develop the same priority target and situational awareness, but for most DPS it's less developed unless they are put into situations like VMA where they are forced to think about it.

The light attack spam supports bad play in the same manner that pet sorcs heavy attacking supports bad play. If a person already doesn't have the awareness that human form needs different buttons pushed than werewolf form, then it's the fault of the player not the werewolf mechanic.

jcm2606

Agree completely. Werewolves are too easy to play considering the amount of raw damage you get out of them, and it's so much worse in PVP where they can just light attack spam you, and you'll have a couple bleeds shredding your health, unable to do anything against (seems like multiple bleeds are being applied, at least). Combine that with their speed, the fact that you don't have to build as much for sustain since the bulk of your damage is coming from light attacks and bleeds, the healing, the stat scaling, and broken doesn't even begin to describe it.

I recall Zenimax saying something about how they want werewolves to be a viable option for lesser skilled players. If that's the case, fair enough, but I don't think having glorified light attack spam deal competitive DPS is health at all for the game. It should absolutely be viable, and so I feel about 25-30k DPS is fair enough, but any higher is too much for the lack of effort, in my opinion.

Sucks for werewolf fans, but glorified light attack spam shouldn't be rewarded with competitive DPS.

kmcaj

Don't like it don't play it. Let people have mindless fun playing a game.

akredon_ESO

only good WW is a dead one imo. #putthepupsdown...









joking aside i enjoy WW alot the dots and light attacks and if you ad the blood moon set into it makes it alot of fun.

msalvia

I second a point a few posters made---I'd rather have a WW spamming light attacks than a non-WW. At least I'll know that, cheesy as it is, the group will at least have reasonable dps.

And of course, despite my caveat, lots of people say "let me play how I want." Again, go crazy with your WWs, but I think the point about WW combat not requiring the same skill set as a normal dps holds. I'm not "taking away anyone else's fun," but rather making a point about how that "fun" doesn't really help you get better at dps. Haven't heard anyone counter that point....

m2rc wrote: »

WW is fun as heck and pretty viable for anything that isn't dungeons or trials.

So you mean face-rolling overland stuff? Anything is viable for that...

ShadowKyuubi

The WW builds are both good and bad. Yes, it does promote bad dps technique for people who know how to do a competent rotation with any class. However, it allows people who don't know the intricacies of a rotation, like light attack weaving, to get some fairly decent damage. It allows them to do the harder content while still contributing to the group in some way. The only problem is when the WW runs out, then that person does little to no dps. Which, if I remember correctly, is getting buffed because of the ability to feed off of friends (I remember seeing this in U22 notes, but didn't double check cause I am lazy so I may be wrong). Just remember, a non-WW who is competent and knows his/her rotation will almost always out dps a WW build.

msalvia

Goregrinder wrote: »

It's been the same design since like 2014. We were trash for everything outside niche pvp builds for like 4 years, then suddenly they buff our damage, and now people are made that WW is a viable playstyle choice for people who want to play that way.

Where were you in 2014 screaming at ZOS to buff WW because they sucked so much back then? Nowhere.

Correct: I was "nowhere"-- I didn't even exist yet! And I sure wasn't pushing for my light attack build to do competitive dps.

Veinblood1965

Well they ARE WW's, not known for clear thinking when in form. Just saying...

msalvia

Yes, it does promote bad dps technique for people who know how to do a competent rotation with any class. However, it allows people who don't know the intricacies of a rotation, like light attack weaving, to get some fairly decent damage.

I agree with your post, and I am totally ok with less skilled players having an option to pull some weight in groups. But let's call it what it is--a crutch. Because if you just resign yourself to not learning a rotation or to weave, and you can get by by playing a WW, you are NEVER going to improve. That was the spirit of my original post--that WW is fine, but if sucks that people can just lean on that and not actually improve. Now if the 1 bar WW actually needed to weave, that'd be an improvement!

ShadowKyuubi

msalvia wrote: »

Yes, it does promote bad dps technique for people who know how to do a competent rotation with any class. However, it allows people who don't know the intricacies of a rotation, like light attack weaving, to get some fairly decent damage.

I agree with your post, and I am totally ok with less skilled players having an option to pull some weight in groups. But let's call it what it is--a crutch. Because if you just resign yourself to not learning a rotation or to weave, and you can get by by playing a WW, you are NEVER going to improve. That was the spirit of my original post--that WW is fine, but if sucks that people can just lean on that and not actually improve. Now if the 1 bar WW actually needed to weave, that'd be an improvement!

WW is completely crutch for the people who play it. You have to remember, that there is a very hard cap on the amount of damage that WW will do, solely based on the fact that it is a light attack build. Will this change with future patches? Who knows. But, if a player wants to put all of their cards in a very unreliable dps source like WW, then that is on them. That is their choice, just like it is a raid leaders choice not to include them in a trial. As a raid lead for a progression group, I accept WW, but I am always hesitant about them because it usually indicates an unwillingness for self-improvement, which is one of your points of this discussion. On the other spectrum, a player who wants to learn, improve, and become phenomenal dps will shy away from WW and start learning real rotations. As the leader, I do my best to help these people when they ask, to the point that I've made new characters to learn how to dps with them so that I can offer better advice. When a WW asks for help, the only thing I can really say is "Uhhhh, light attack more?" Obviously a bit of an exaggeration, but you get the point, not the new toon part, that was a fun Magplar experience. But I digress.

Like I said before, a non-WW player who practices enough and is willing to put in the time, will always out damage a WW player. That is the reward for not giving into that WW temptation. Now, I do wish that people would take the time to learn how to play classes and not lean on WW, and I do my best to support these people. But at the same time, I cannot force people to give up on WW. It is on them to see whether WW either helps or limits their potential because you have to remember the other side of this argument. There are people, who for various reasons, cannot keep up with standard rotations as we know them. So, for those people, by all means use the WW and do some good damage with the WW. WW is a great tool for doing some of the harder content, you just have to know your limitations and understand that with practice you can still complete most if not all the current content in PvE, but it will be very hard.

ThanatosXR

Warewolfs are great lol this thread is funny a acting like its a full time class, im a healer so its fun to get to dps every once in awhile, it is lolize in below 50 BG, you do know it has a really short time limit right?

Defilted

My guild only gets WW to work in groups of four or more.

ShadowKyuubi

@ThanatosXR, with the changes that were made to WW X-amount of patches ago, when they became legitimate sources of dps, they essentially became their own full time class. You have to have the right sets and CP setups for the WW to capitalize on their damage. These usually don't coincide with non-WW builds. As such, the werewolf dps build should be considered a full time class. The duration of the ability is not short, relatively speaking from a PvE perspective. A werewolf can stay in form for very long fights, several minutes as long as he/she is smart about it.

Now the example of what your saying about just having the WW form on your healer is the exception to what I am trying to express. As you stated, you just like to have fun and do some dps on occasion. While this works for you and what you want out of the class, I wouldn't accept you in my raid. And this is not an insult by any means and I do apologize if it sounds harsh. But these are real problems that we have to consider with werewolfs and where they fall in terms of classes.

ThanatosXR

ShadowKyuubi wrote: »

@. As such, the werewolf dps build should be considered a full time class. The duration of the ability is not short, relatively speaking from a PvE perspective. .

Lmao, why would you care about pve werewolfs, i get the complains about being op in under 50 Bg, the are trolly but don't live long enough to rage about, the zoo was worse. Why would I raid with WW equiped? Especially pve raid
Lol some mental hoops man, I told you Im heals I change skills every 10 seconds based on content, group, player need, its not dps where I can just rotate the same skills