How to Improve Dragon Knight Healers in gameplay

Tasear

Of all the classes as Healers, I believe dragon knight is behind others by a wide margin.

* The lack class identity
* The overlap with tank utility often times
* The shields between tank/ healer dks overlap
* Shattering rocks, could be such a fun skill and really make the dk identity of healer who guards allies by having emeny heal you instead of damage you but this doesn't work well in pve fights since most mobs are immune when it could be useful



Suggestions

* Give Cinder storm a synergy and increase range, but decrease the snare so it less the further you to the edge of the radius of the skill
* Take volcano and rocky identity and give cinder storm a more fitting animation
* Have minor and major shields where minor only reduces a percent of the damage.
* Cauterize have it heal the lowest ally near the skill or something. Make it less random
* Can obsidian share do a knock down instead of stun? This would give it flavor of stopping enemies from hurting allieswith rocks.


What do you guys think?

mcagatayg

I think all classes should not be able to do everything equally good. Some might be better tanks, some might better dd, so I'm fine with DK being a weak healer if its a good dd and a tank.

exeeter702

mcagatayg wrote: »

I think all classes should not be able to do everything equally good. Some might be better tanks, some might better dd, so I'm fine with DK being a weak healer if its a good dd and a tank.

This is not the philosophy applied by the developers. As much as you feel that way, they do not share your views.

Your logical is equally flawed since every class can dps at a competitive level but only tanking and healer should have clear superior choices? Dk healers arent even that bad, it has nothing to do with them being good tanks. A stamina dk dps is not a magicka dk dps is not a dk healer is not a dk tank.

Healing between the 5 classes is mostly balanced, and each has a particular way they achieve performance in the role. Its how they do it that separates them, not how WELL they can heal.

Sanguinor2

exeeter702 wrote: »

This is not the philosophy applied by the developers. As much as you feel that way, they do not share your views.

Your logical is equally flawed since every class can dps at a competitive level but only tanking and healer should have clear superior choices? Dk healers arent even that bad, it has nothing to do with them being good tanks. A stamina dk dps is not a magicka dk dps is not a dk healer is not a dk tank.

Healing between the 5 classes is mostly balanced, and each has a particular way they achieve performance in the role. Its how they do it that separates them, not how WELL they can heal.

Implying dps doesnt have clear superior choices lul.

Tasear

mcagatayg wrote: »

I think all classes should not be able to do everything equally good. Some might be better tanks, some might better dd, so I'm fine with DK being a weak healer if its a good dd and a tank.

😓 I think that's what they said about Sorcs years ago. 😯.

Still this belief doesn't fit vision of eso. People want to play on their characters at any level of gameplay. Play as you want is what attracts people.

exeeter702

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

This is not the philosophy applied by the developers. As much as you feel that way, they do not share your views.

Your logical is equally flawed since every class can dps at a competitive level but only tanking and healer should have clear superior choices? Dk healers arent even that bad, it has nothing to do with them being good tanks. A stamina dk dps is not a magicka dk dps is not a dk healer is not a dk tank.

Healing between the 5 classes is mostly balanced, and each has a particular way they achieve performance in the role. Its how they do it that separates them, not how WELL they can heal.

Implying dps doesnt have clear superior choices lul.

You misunderstand. Let me be more precise "lul" what are you 12?

Over the course of this games lifespan, each class has had timeframes where their dps was top tier. The point that was made was that dps as a role sees no objection to levels of who is deserving the same way you see with the tank and healer roles.

Dk and templar discussions come up about desiring better dps numbers and no one bats an eye. When stam DKs were top dog years ago, no one bitched that DKs shouldnt be viable dmaage dealers because they are the meta tank "by design". Adversly when you see discussions about how a dk healer could be improved, you see responses like "why should a dk be able to heal competitively? They are tanks" which is a pathetic point frankly.

The choices of meta dps in a given patch cycle boils down to numbers and the games current environment not an arbitrary design point that the devs are pushing each class into a specifc role. But you have players behaving as if anything other than templar healer should inherently be weaker because of "design".

Tasear

Instead of buffing cinderstorm healing maybe just adding minor vitality after walking in cinderstorm would help.

Tasear

Another suggestion: Maybe give magma shell major vitality to allies so it has something to compare against barrier. Also allow it to buff 12 now just 6 like other defensive healer ultimates.

zvavi

ok,
1. if cinder storm range gets any bigger, it will be easily overpowering healing springs. as of now it heals as much as 75% of it (roughly) with shocking more than 15 sec uptime (dont remember how long)
2. synergy for cinder is a nice idea, but it is unfair to have a class with two synergies. wait templars exist, nvm. ok synergy for cinder is an option, but i dont like the idea. i dont feel it.
3. fitting animation for cinder storm is good. it doesnt feel like heal. every trial/dungeon i go to i need to explain people what dk heal is.
4. wait, your are telling me Cauterize doesnt hit lowest health ally? thats... a bummer. ok ye, if it would, it would be nice.
5. the shield is useless, also it is meh to use dk heal when u got dk tank. it is also so small on a heal, it is main function is to give you major mending on a button. yep. you press it. free major mending for few seconds. no need for a heavy attack. cool right?
6. more identity? what about the ability to give major buffs to all your group? i mean, ye potions and ***, but some people on not high end can really enjoy it!
7. obsidian shard knock down instead of stun? really? what i would like it to do, is to heal two targets instead of one. take in example BoL or sorc bird, they both can heal many tagets, and u know whats best? THEY DONT NEED AN ENEMY TO BE INFRONT OF U TO BE USED, you can literally run around doing mechanics while spamming it with much, much less difficulty.
8. magma shell that gives major vitality... i call against it, also will still make dk tanks stronger, thing i advise against. barrier will still over preform on heal, simply because the shield will be much much bigger, in those few seconds u will be able to heal people up anyway.
9. minor vitality from cinder storm will break it. too strong. also buffs dk tanks.

over all, i gotta say, i am pretty happy with where my dk heal stands.
in dungeons i have strong presence in the front, near the tank, helping him pull and cc adds. showing the way to weak inexperienced dds (since they will stand behind me anyway, i will just over run them and stand behind the tank where i can see all) that it is safe to run forward, cause that's where the heals are.
in trials i have cinder storm for a good DoT heal for stacking groups, with war horn giving me back resources. other heals would kill for a resource returning war horns.

over all, i think dk heal is a good option in many cases with inexperienced groups (high end is always high end, templar is too good). when also you could have dk healer in a trial group when your tanks are not dk (insert shock faced emoji here).

the main problems i feel when i am healing with my dk healer:
- my Cauterize is not morphed yet. tee hee.
- obsidian shard requiring a target while healing one person. yes i know i said it few times already (deleted them, to not flood), but i found out that combat prayer just over preforms it and feels more natural to use as an "aw ***" heal, and it buffs. sweet buffs.
- ok ye i dont have any more complaints.
- wait nvm i have 1 more! making the cinder storm look more like a heal. or at least have a tutorial somewhere with it as a heal. plz. i am so tired from explaining to people it is heal cause they keep running away. THEY KEEP RUNNING AWAY.
- people hate on them cause they are not templars. before u start hating learn to *** stand in the olorime ring #complaint about dds thread.

honestly? i love my dk heal. but i love all my female characters. every time i see a dk heal buff i smile and enjoy cinder storm being buffed again. i dont pug dungeons with my dk. cause healers feel useless in dungeons and there is hate towards healers that are not Templars. even with the major defiles zos has included everywhere (take it from someone who completed both new dungeon's hard mode with 3 dds). when i take some guildies to have fun in dungeons (or teach them, bringing 3 dds in learn runs is counter productive), or heal in casual trials (v crag trials are casual) i dont mind her tagging along though.

Ragnarock41

New animation for cinderstorm, yeah I would like that actually.

Tasear

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

New animation for cinderstorm, yeah I would like that actually.

what would you like to see? I am personally think it should look like a real cinder storm and it falls from the sky instead of starting from ground.

Ragnarock41

Tasear wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

New animation for cinderstorm, yeah I would like that actually.

what would you like to see? I am personally think it should look like a real cinder storm and it falls from the sky instead of starting from ground.

Anything that will stop DDs from dodge rolling out of it to be honest. It just doesn't look like a healing ability. That being said In my opinion DK in general needs a visual update to some of the especially bad looking skills.

If there was a cosmetic for that purpose I would just throw my wallet at ZOS.

robpr

1. Make Obsidian Shard also targettable on allies (can be even half as strong) with small AoE heal. Should be able to do more targets with that magicka cost.
2. Obsidian Shield morph with 5s Major Mending could do Minor Protection, Aegis or resistances instead of shield. Anything that wouldn't interfere with tank's bigger shield morph.
3. Better visuals for Cinder Storm along with bigger radius (necromancer heal is 8m, like springs)
4. Cauterize should be smart heal (like necromancer's ghost)
5. Molten Armaments could also buff allies heavy attack damage
6. Some synergy that doesnt require enemy to be successfully rooted. For example Obsidian shield could spread to other targets or cinder storm could give some flat resistances.

SomeDogsAreCops

I think it's time we get rid of this "all classes can play all roles" mantra. This is really difficult to balance PVE and PVP wise and it also makes the classes feel very indifferent from each other. I'd rather have my DK be fun to play even if it means I'm limited to tanking and bruising. I don't expect a Sorcerer to be able to tank nor am I surprised a Templar is going to out heal my Nightblade.

zvavi

SomeDogsAreCops wrote: »

I think it's time we get rid of this "all classes can play all roles" mantra. This is really difficult to balance PVE and PVP wise and it also makes the classes feel very indifferent from each other. I'd rather have my DK be fun to play even if it means I'm limited to tanking and bruising. I don't expect a Sorcerer to be able to tank nor am I surprised a Templar is going to out heal my Nightblade.

as a person that heals on dk and tanks on sorc, they are fine in those aspects more or less.

Tasear

SomeDogsAreCops wrote: »

I think it's time we get rid of this "all classes can play all roles" mantra. This is really difficult to balance PVE and PVP wise and it also makes the classes feel very indifferent from each other. I'd rather have my DK be fun to play even if it means I'm limited to tanking and bruising. I don't expect a Sorcerer to be able to tank nor am I surprised a Templar is going to out heal my Nightblade.

Just not the direction current game vision is. People want to play their favorite character like they want.

SomeDogsAreCops

Tasear wrote: »

SomeDogsAreCops wrote: »

I think it's time we get rid of this "all classes can play all roles" mantra. This is really difficult to balance PVE and PVP wise and it also makes the classes feel very indifferent from each other. I'd rather have my DK be fun to play even if it means I'm limited to tanking and bruising. I don't expect a Sorcerer to be able to tank nor am I surprised a Templar is going to out heal my Nightblade.

Just not the direction current game vision is. People want to play their favorite character like they want.

Well classes are more pigeon holed into their implied roles then ever based on all the changes over the last year. I'd rather have 10 classes with very distinct utility then 5 classes who all do the same things.

zvavi

SomeDogsAreCops wrote: »

I'd rather have 10 classes with very distinct utility then 5 classes who all do the same things.

thats a discussion topic! but thing is. it is not only MMO, but also TES game. do what you want is a TES thing

WrathOfInnos

What if Molten Weapons gave a more useful buff than Major Brutality and Sorcery? Minor Berserk might be interesting, since it was recently removed from the Nightblade toolkit. It wouldn’t cause significant power creep, since healers can already provide this buff with Combat Prayer, but it would mean DK healers could save a skill slot and avoid recasting every 8s (with a long duration over 30s). They would also be in the unique situation to provide Minor Berserk to players in a mobile scenario such as vAS.

The detail I’m not sure about is how to ensure this is useful on DK healer without just being pushed onto the DK tank. Maybe scale the duration with how many pieces of light armor the caster is wearing? 6s per piece of light armor sounds about right (30-42s from healer, Max 12s from tank). This could also make it viable on a magDK DPS if healers do not want to play DK.

Tasear

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

What if Molten Weapons gave a more useful buff than Major Brutality and Sorcery? Minor Berserk might be interesting, since it was recently removed from the Nightblade toolkit. It wouldn’t cause significant power creep, since healers can already provide this buff with Combat Prayer, but it would mean DK healers could save a skill slot and avoid recasting every 8s (with a long duration over 30s). They would also be in the unique situation to provide Minor Berserk to players in a mobile scenario such as vAS.

The detail I’m not sure about is how to ensure this is useful on DK healer without just being pushed onto the DK tank. Maybe scale the duration with how many pieces of light armor the caster is wearing? 6s per piece of light armor sounds about right (30-42s from healer, Max 12s from tank). This could also make it viable on a magDK DPS if healers do not want to play DK.

Scaling to highest offensive stats seems be new trend be and great idea.

exeeter702

SomeDogsAreCops wrote: »

I think it's time we get rid of this "all classes can play all roles" mantra. This is really difficult to balance PVE and PVP wise and it also makes the classes feel very indifferent from each other. I'd rather have my DK be fun to play even if it means I'm limited to tanking and bruising. I don't expect a Sorcerer to be able to tank nor am I surprised a Templar is going to out heal my Nightblade.

This is an incredibly antiquated mindset and frankly hasnt even been 100 employed even at this games launch. Nor does the approach have any actual bearing on pvp balance. There are only 6 base classes in eso, which is a far too limitied scope to isolate 2 of those 6 as viable tank and healer.

Pvp balance has nothing to do with this, and is more an issue with the way skill work on an individual basis in a pve environment vs a battle spirit / cp enabled environment.

exeeter702

SomeDogsAreCops wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

SomeDogsAreCops wrote: »

I think it's time we get rid of this "all classes can play all roles" mantra. This is really difficult to balance PVE and PVP wise and it also makes the classes feel very indifferent from each other. I'd rather have my DK be fun to play even if it means I'm limited to tanking and bruising. I don't expect a Sorcerer to be able to tank nor am I surprised a Templar is going to out heal my Nightblade.

Just not the direction current game vision is. People want to play their favorite character like they want.

Well classes are more pigeon holed into their implied roles then ever based on all the changes over the last year. I'd rather have 10 classes with very distinct utility then 5 classes who all do the same things.

The reality is the absolute opposite of what you are saying here. Believe it or not, the idea that each class could perform in each role has been around for almost as long as eso has existed. It was only post TG, that they began adjusting classes to strengthen the areas they were lacking for a given role. Over the last year we have seen numerous changes to help foster this approach.

There are no "implied" roles regardless of what you believe to be the the case.

Ultimately what you are advocating for is a game with soon to be 12 unique classes (stam and mag of each) of which only one of those 12 should eb able to tank end game and only 1 of those 12 should be able to heal end game. Class role diversity comes in the form of how each class acheives viability in a given role with how they are played, full stop.

phantasmalD

One of my major problems is that their class skills are inferior versions of other skills and so there's 0 reason to run them.

1. Obsidian Shield is pretty much an inferior version of Bone Surge (Undaunted); OS gives about 10% of your max health while BS gives 50% of target's health. They also give similar buffs, Major Mending from OS and Major Vitality from BS, which are like two sides of the same coin.
2. Magma Shell is a worse version of Barrier. Just a straight up downgrade in every aspect.
3. Cinder storm is, well, numerically probably not worse than Healing Springs but in practice it does end up performing way worse. CS covers about 1/3 of the area that HS would and the longer duration doesn't really make up for it as, in my experience, there are very few fights that allow you to essentially stand still for 15 seconds. You and your team constantly have to move around avoiding mechanisms and relocate to safer spots, leaving the tiny radius of CS.

4. Shattering Rock is the one pretty unique healy skill DKs have (tho it's sorta similar to Total Dark, actually) but the crowd-control immunity condition makes it completely useless for PvE and even in PvP it's kinda meh. That condition is remnant of an earlier version of the skill and really should not be a thing.
5. Cauterize is a flavorful skill but the slow, drawn out ticks and the bad target selection makes this skill really useless. It's always either gonna be useless overheal or your teammate died because he needed the tick 1 second sooner. Mutagen is just a better choice for a HoT.

Tasear

phantasmalD wrote: »

One of my major problems is that their class skills are inferior versions of other skills and so there's 0 reason to run them.

1. Obsidian Shield is pretty much an inferior version of Bone Surge (Undaunted); OS gives about 10% of your max health while BS gives 50% of target's health. They also give similar buffs, Major Mending from OS and Major Vitality from BS, which are like two sides of the same coin.
2. Magma Shell is a worse version of Barrier. Just a straight up downgrade in every aspect.
3. Cinder storm is, well, numerically probably not worse than Healing Springs but in practice it does end up performing way worse. CS covers about 1/3 of the area that HS would and the longer duration doesn't really make up for it as, in my experience, there are very few fights that allow you to essentially stand still for 15 seconds. You and your team constantly have to move around avoiding mechanisms and relocate to safer spots, leaving the tiny radius of CS.

4. Shattering Rock is the one pretty unique healy skill DKs have (tho it's sorta similar to Total Dark, actually) but the crowd-control immunity condition makes it completely useless for PvE and even in PvP it's kinda meh. That condition is remnant of an earlier version of the skill and really should not be a thing.
5. Cauterize is a flavorful skill but the slow, drawn out ticks and the bad target selection makes this skill really useless. It's always either gonna be useless overheal or your teammate died because he needed the tick 1 second sooner. Mutagen is just a better choice for a HoT.

Cinder storm is 22 meters and healing springs is 28 meters maybe it's animation that is issue? There's even delay casting it too with old animation.

Hotdog_23

Ideas
1. Ash cloud needs a bigger radius (8m) and better animation so you can see it during a fight easier. Yes a synergy would be nice to have.
2. Obsidian Shield needs a bigger shield overall, say 50-100% larger to its base. Igneous Shield increased shield amp to 200% but decrease range to 3-5 meters so it is more tank focused. Fragmented Shield increase range to 28 meters to be more healer focused. Decrease time to 12 seconds from 15. Let the larger shield overwrite the smaller shield but not the smaller to overwrite the larger one. This would prevent the healing DK to overwrite the DK tank on shield.
3. Obsidian Shard morph, get rid of the stun and damage but instead allow it to be used without a target needed. Something like slamming a healing shard down on the ground breaking it and healing yourself or an ally. I guess you would also have to give the same 180 degree heal radius as BOL even though the sorc animal healing doesn’t. Which is unfair btw.
4. Molten Armaments morph, get rid of the heavy attack damage and give it magic steal instead. This would also help with a MagDK resources since it still is a sore point for us. Give Igneous Weapons stamina steal to make it unique and help stamDK with sustain.
5. Magma Shell, what is its range? Make it 28 meters and make it 300% of ally’s health to make it comparable to barrier without the healing attached to it.

Passive Abilities
Eternal Mountain – get rid of the percent and make it 1 and 2 second increase.
Battle Roar – increase you restore 25 Health, 25 Magicka, and 25 Stamina for each point of the Ultimate's cost. And you restor50 Health, 50 Magicka, and 50 Stamina for each point of the Ultimate's cost.
Mountain's Blessing – change to 12-24 seconds or 6-12 seconds to make it fit rotations better.
Helping Hands – Change to 500 and 1000 stamina or magicka whichever is higher resource.

robpr

Tasear wrote: »

Cinder storm is 22 meters and healing springs is 28 meters maybe it's animation that is issue? There's even delay casting it too with old animation.

You can cast CS 22 metres away from the caster but the radius of the healing circle is 6 metres compared to springs 12 metres. That is a huge difference.

phantasmalD

robpr wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Cinder storm is 22 meters and healing springs is 28 meters maybe it's animation that is issue? There's even delay casting it too with old animation.

You can cast CS 22 metres away from the caster but the radius of the healing circle is 6 metres compared to springs 12 metres. That is a huge difference.

It's 5 and 8 respectively, but yes, that's what I'm talking about.
CS covers an area of 25*3.14 = 78.5 while HS covers 64*3.14 = 201.

On the topic of Shards; am I the only one thinking that this skill is kinda fine? I mean it offers something that no other burst heal class skills does, insane reach with a potential max of 56 meters and no LoS requirement.
I'd not be opposed to a secondary healing effect but not at the expense of that obscene, unique reach.

Tasear

robpr wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Cinder storm is 22 meters and healing springs is 28 meters maybe it's animation that is issue? There's even delay casting it too with old animation.

You can cast CS 22 metres away from the caster but the radius of the healing circle is 6 metres compared to springs 12 metres. That is a huge difference.

Ah

Tasear

@Quantum_V tagging you here to see this.

ATreeGnome

Too be honest, I don't think that DK healers are really all that far behind. In terms of raw HPS they are actually pretty competitive with templars and even superior to most other classes. I think their biggest issue is that they need another synergy (or to have the game changed to not revolve around Alkosh) and for DK tanks to not be such a dominant choice. If you look at their utility in its own right it's very powerful - they can use chains, talons, engulfing flames, and provide minor brutality. The only problem is that DK tanks do all of that too and are by far the easiest choice for main tanking in most trials.

Kesstryl

ATreeGnome wrote: »

Too be honest, I don't think that DK healers are really all that far behind. In terms of raw HPS they are actually pretty competitive with templars and even superior to most other classes. I think their biggest issue is that they need another synergy (or to have the game changed to not revolve around Alkosh) and for DK tanks to not be such a dominant choice. If you look at their utility in its own right it's very powerful - they can use chains, talons, engulfing flames, and provide minor brutality. The only problem is that DK tanks do all of that too and are by far the easiest choice for main tanking in most trials.

They would definitley make a good compliment to any group with a non-DK tank