StamDK truths PvP. OP or one build only?

GeorgeBlack

I'd like to say that my main character is a stamDK which I play since the summer of 2015.
I recognize that a stamDK with SnB/2h Bloodspawn 7th Fury is maybe top for smallscale and 1v1. Unkillable. In the zerg it doesn't bring anything.
I have watched patch after patch the adjustments in this classes passives and active skills and it saddens me that the new class, necro is getting a solid DOT passive plus a good variety of stamina morphs (as each class should have), and I always come to the conclusion that without Bloodspawn 7th Fury SnB/2h this class cannot be used for PvP.
If we take these two sets out of the mix stamDK isn't much.

StamDK is impossible to play without SnB. The only other weapon that is valid for StamDK is Master DW but this weapon is better on every other class stamina build.
If we consider how many benefits 2handed has, we have to come to the conclusion than stamDK = SnB/2h

StamDK relies too much on magika in order to maintain firstly effiency and secondly class identity. Not even one passive is good for resource sustaiability. Not even the once great Battle roar.
StamDK relies entirely on weapon spammables to deal good dmg yet not even one passive helps Physical Damage or stamina cost reduction or recovery. Our passives provide reduction to Noxious breath and Venomous Claw. These abilities have a very low cost, so the benefit from our passives is zero.

Since stamDK does not have a skill to deal quick strong dmg the class must take advantage of Minor Brutality and build WD, leaving critical weak, recovery weak, Stamina Pool low.
Most other classes have burst dmg. This enables them to lower their WD and work on the other stats as well. Some even have passives that help with that.

Many have called for a stamina whip. Here are my reasons why this is a bad idea.
1)Poison Knight is an unattractive theme. Not very nice visuals and sounds. How will a stamDK be any different than a magDK with the same spammable attacks? Breath, claw, whip?
2)Why replace the powerful spammable attacks of SnB, whose active skills have so many buffs/debuffs. Why rely on the terrible class passives instead of the OP SnB passives?

In many topics I have read that people are tired of nerfs. "Buff other classes instead of asking for nerfs" is a common line I read. Yet in most pro DK topics I see people saying that "these changes would make DK OP".
So I wont suggest any improvements for stamDK at this point, but I would like to invite people to imagine an ESO in which the badly designed sets that enable tanks to hit like trucks, Brute of 7th Legion and Warriors Fury do not exist and tell me what would make stamDK a viable class. I ask the community to think how bad is it that a class has to use SnB/2h in order to be viable when most of the other stamina builds can create more and very interesting builds using effectively the bow and the DW.

soniku4ikblis

I commend you for putting your thoughts out there.

The amount of flame and kick-back that will follow are probably going to be so deafening, the reverb will drown out and solid response.

Thus, let me just say plainly that I wish that ZOS would take the fervor they are using to design the new class and apply it to tweaking every class and their skills, currently, to open up and do much, much more, as the new classes that are coming out.

That would entail balancing. But the scope of that work is probably too great to keep up with keeping ZOS profits at a level they are comfortable with and finding the time to do such a broad scale.

But, as it is said with many other MMO's, starter classes usually suck in many various ways. Later classes usually get built upon previous knowledge, and starter classes end up getting their good tweaks towards an MMO's vet years or end of life.

DK is a top-tier. But stam-dk, like stamplar and other classes, feels constrained to a small box with limited possibilities. That's what my DK friends say most of the time, echoing your post.

jaws343

Yeah, I have been having issues attempting to make my StamDK PVP viable. Have tried a few combination, including an attempt at a dot build. And everything seems underwhelming and overly reliant on weapon skills. A part of me is thinking of trying a proc build, with Zaan, Way of the Air and Red Mountain. The flame damage synergizes really well with the DK and a crit rush followed by a dragon leap could line up solid burst damage. But the prospect of running proc sets on a stam build is unappealing.

GeorgeBlack

@jaws343

You would have major issues with your Vigor

jaws343

That is a fair point lol. I'd also be forced to run Lover to get the spell pen while also getting physical pen.

Xvorg

jaws343 wrote: »

Yeah, I have been having issues attempting to make my StamDK PVP viable. Have tried a few combination, including an attempt at a dot build. And everything seems underwhelming and overly reliant on weapon skills. A part of me is thinking of trying a proc build, with Zaan, Way of the Air and Red Mountain. The flame damage synergizes really well with the DK and a crit rush followed by a dragon leap could line up solid burst damage. But the prospect of running proc sets on a stam build is unappealing.

Way of Fire. Way of Air is just bad

jaws343

Xvorg wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Yeah, I have been having issues attempting to make my StamDK PVP viable. Have tried a few combination, including an attempt at a dot build. And everything seems underwhelming and overly reliant on weapon skills. A part of me is thinking of trying a proc build, with Zaan, Way of the Air and Red Mountain. The flame damage synergizes really well with the DK and a crit rush followed by a dragon leap could line up solid burst damage. But the prospect of running proc sets on a stam build is unappealing.

Way of Fire. Way of Air is just bad

Ah, yeah. Meant Way of Fire. I don't expect the build to do well if I do try it. At least the sets are dirt cheap now.

Ragnarock41

Pretty much a one trick pony. StamDk is a top tier dueling class. Everything that makes it special comes from sets, CP , and weapon skills.

Vig0rz

I've been playing Stam-DK for just as long as you and see all the same issues. Battle roar and Helping hands are former shells of what the used to be, and taking away how these passives used to scale off of max stam makes the class feel less unique as a whole. Skills like Hardened(Volatile) armor feel very underwhelming compared to other resistance buffs, Noxious Breath is not even comparable to a skill like sub assult, and Venomous Claw feels like any other simplistic dot, Take flight isn't a bad skill when compared to dawnbreaker, but it is still clunky and doesn't work at times. The only skill on DK that would come close to OP is Fragmented Shield. While it is a very strong skill it can still be countered by skills like reverb, incap, and the forever spammable Lethal Arrow. Changing a skill like inferno to have a poison/stam morph would give the dk's a bit more burst damage and changing their resis buff to something more practical would also help(having it give a minor buff or something just as good).
I'd say the four most important this in PvP at this moment are tankiness, damage, sustain, and mobility. DK's are definetly a great tank. Their damage, sustain, and mobility are all weak which makes them suffer. Most classes have a few flaws, nb's are squishy, stam sorcs are squishy and have a few damage issues since they are forced to use weapon skill lines, stamplars have a few damage issues with jabs being buggy and they lack in mobility, and stam wardens only issue seems to be an overabundance of good skills that they can't even fit onto their bar. DK in general is just seen as a meh class that most people pick as a starter class which they move on from. I don't know what the solution is for this class, but it could use a little bit of love on the damage, sustain, or mobility side.

Bring back OG Wrecking Blow 2019.
(Sorry for any spelling errors or grammar mistakes. I got triggered and just started typing)

Alucardo

When people say "X is only good at doing this one thing", JackDaniell is out there like...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jq-szFnyLOI

I mean, sure, stam dk resonates well with turtle SnB builds, but if you want it to do something else, there's nothing stopping you, even if it does look somewhat unnatural

GeorgeBlack

Alucardo wrote: »

When people say "X is only good at doing this one thing", JackDaniell is out there like...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jq-szFnyLOI

I mean, sure, stam dk resonates well with turtle SnB builds, but if you want it to do something else, there's nothing stopping you, even if it does look somewhat unnatural

The issues that stamDK faces are older than blackrose prison, the changes to magnum shot and summerset chapter.

The build does not offer any survivability or escape mechanics. If he was to be focused by melee chars he'd be in trouble.

It is a nice build non the less. Almost as good as a NB archer.

I hope that there wont be any changes to Wings anytime soon, because that would be a problem for the build.

cpuScientist

I understand your opinions and the like. But from my experience. Open world and duels stamDK is in a very solid spot. And dw/2h is nearly just as good as SnB/2h. I don't even use sevenths fury, I use veiled and either back bar 2h alchemist or infused weapon damage agility and some special 2h like vma or asylum. Is it the tippy top 1vX class like magSorc and stamBlades no but damn is it good. It's in a solid spot. Fantastic in small man good in 1vX fantastic in duels and only I guess bad in ball groups, but that's just cause those groups are really strict and meh.

I get the position you are in though. It's kind of the same with me and MagSorc. Alot of the pain points I have and obvious problems I can see with the class is drowned out by the fact that the class is doing well and seen as top tier. That the valid problems are just seen as whining and wanting to buff up something already strong. But I just really had to step back and see damn magSorc is really strong just I guess not in the way I want it to be or how it used to be, same with stamDK honestly...

Alucardo

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

When people say "X is only good at doing this one thing", JackDaniell is out there like...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jq-szFnyLOI

I mean, sure, stam dk resonates well with turtle SnB builds, but if you want it to do something else, there's nothing stopping you, even if it does look somewhat unnatural

The build does not offer any survivability or escape mechanics. If he was to be focused by melee chars he'd be in trouble.

One would argue that its high healing output and mobility would suffice for survivability and escape mechanics, not to mention the CC pushes you and your opponent in opposite directions, giving you more ground to get away if need be.
To be honest, if I was on a melee char I feel I'd be the one in trouble, especially with all of that negating physical resistance and high damage.

Davadin

Agree with nearly everything you said, OP, it's in a poor spot.

But.........

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

I always come to the conclusion that without Bloodspawn 7th Fury SnB/2h this class cannot be used for PvP.
If we take these two sets out of the mix stamDK isn't much.

StamDK is impossible to play without SnB.

yeah i dunno. I main a DK since BETA, swap to Mag around 2015, and back to stam 2016. I play PvP most of my online hours.

so i have to disagree.

I have 7th and Spriggan and used SnB/2h, and even SnB/DW (no Master Weps) and it's true. We are very good dueler and can take on 1vX on a few scenarios. (i'd be hard press doing 1v5+, my comfort zone is around 1v3 against CP810 in Vivec)

again, I disagree that it's the only setup.

I had DW/Bow or 2H/Bow and I can DESTROY people in Battlegrounds and zergs. Poison-based class? Bow? Yes please.
I had DW/2H on a Burst build using Dizzying and I may not survive 1v3+, I can sneak and blow somebody up.
I had DW/2H pure DoT build and I'm hitting 1m+ damage in BG and in open pvp I can spin to win in a zerg, racking up 70-100k AP per hour.


Is it the best class for PvP? no.
best healer or DPS for PvP? no.
best 1vX? no again.

it's probably on the bottom of the food chain for playing solo, especially for beginner without proper gear and practice.... and other class have it easier skill to play. It needs new ways to self-identify as its own class.

but stamDK is more than just 7th-Fury/SnB+2H.

ochsinator

I run veild herritence and spriggan 2h and SnB weapon damage enchant infused on 2h poison infused on SnB and that set up works very well. I’ve also switched out SnB for DW and that works very well also

Vapirko

People have been crying about Stam DKs for a long time. Sure they have their issues but so does every class. They’re not as bad as some make them seem and they’re super strong in some cases as others have pointed out. They could use some tweaks but so could every class and spec except maybe stamblade and wardens, but even magwardens needs a bit of power balance between their performance in PvP and PvE. The bigger issue is that ZOS has neglected to look at how all classes are performing in light of how much the game has changed. Hopefully we start to see this happening now. Skills are getting a pass this patch and they’re said that passive changes are coming.

Alucardo

Davadin wrote: »

but stamDK is more than just 7th-Fury/SnB+2H.

True, but I will admit that SnB/2H does resonate well with DK. Admittedly I haven't been playing stam dk very long, but I always find myself going back to SnB. Having said that, I don't run the meta like seventh/fury, or even heavy armor.

Here's some short clips from no cp. Just wearing some jank purple gear for most of it (Shackle, spriggan, 1 chudan, 1 pirate skele)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtO18e2K0Nw

DK is a pretty versatile class, but the way it's designed just feels more natural with a shield in one hand. Perhaps I take the "knight" part too literal xD

Stridig

I gave up trying to be anything special or unique on StamDK. I finally settled on Hulking, Eternal Hunt and Chudan. Works pretty good in groups. Not OP at all but have dodge rolls for days.

Wing

be proud in the fact that your one of the few stam DK's rolling in pvp. we are a proud few, and the class is held aloft by the skill and determination of those still making it work.

I personally rock a Khajiit DK, bloodspawn, mechanical acuity, bone pirates, (5 heavy 2 medium) S/B, 2H

crit damage mundus, crit damage CP (for CP) and kahjiit make acuity procs hit hard, and for those instance when acuity procs during corrosive armor you get to enjoy a few seconds of infinite crit and infinite pen.

I play very bruiser / brawler, jumping around and using heroic slash, reverb bash, etc. (with double health damage poison on the S/B bar) when acuity does proc I move to execute someone I have been fighting, switching to 2H, procing the weapon damage enchant, DB, execute, etc. at this point they should already have had a poison and reverb on them.

after that its buff and keep moving, roll dodge, wings, rally, vigor, igneous, spiked armor, etc. I also front bar inner thought (psijic) for those moment of get behind a wall, rock, around a corner, etc. and recover some resources, even 1 sec is 2k resources.

I also have 3 well fitted and investment into roll dodge and sprint cost reduction to get more of a medium ability to sprint and roll dodge without running out of gas. and main immovable potions still (stamina, expedition, immovable)

ults tend to switch between a defensive on main bar of S/B ult or corrosive, and offensive on back bar of leap or DB

gives me a consistent brawler playstyle with the moments of burst and execute that DK lacks thanks to acuity

dazee

One class being able to do only one thing well is not how eso was ever intended to be nor should it ever be how ESO is, if it ever becomes that way it must be fixed asap.

Alucardo

dazee wrote: »

One class being able to do only one thing well is not how eso was ever intended to be nor should it ever be how ESO is, if it ever becomes that way it must be fixed asap.

It's fine. DK works well as an archer, brawler, shield play, healer, whatever you want to do. There are a lot of "turtle" DK builds out there, but that's just because their passives shine upon that particular style. This isn't to say DK isn't capable of anything else.

Alucardo

Wing wrote: »

ults tend to switch between a defensive on main bar of S/B ult or corrosive, and offensive on back bar of leap or DB

Try the 2h ult - you won't be disappointed. Not only does it cut right through their penetration with a high tooltip, but it boosts your defenses at the same time. So technically it's an offensive and defensive ultimate. If you go with the Onslaught morph you get all your ult back when you execute a target with it.
I was at a resource fight yesterday just lobbing down low health players while my resources kept going up. It was actually kind of stupid.

RedKialandi

My personal specialty is DW/2H using Troll King, Shackle, Deadly and vMA 2H. Just stampede in, apply dots and use optional ult combined with fossilise.

Ragnarock41

dazee wrote: »

One class being able to do only one thing well is not how eso was ever intended to be nor should it ever be how ESO is, if it ever becomes that way it must be fixed asap.

This is what pains me the most about ESO combat in general. I'm sure all the magsorcs forced into petsorcs builds right now will understand my feelings perfectly well. I've been using heavy armor SnB builds for years now and I've grown so sick of it.

Most classes are built with the premise of ''Play how you want'', yet they are so one dimensional it hurts.

Toc de Malsvi

Alucardo wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

One class being able to do only one thing well is not how eso was ever intended to be nor should it ever be how ESO is, if it ever becomes that way it must be fixed asap.

It's fine. DK works well as an archer, brawler, shield play, healer, whatever you want to do. There are a lot of "turtle" DK builds out there, but that's just because their passives shine upon that particular style. This isn't to say DK isn't capable of anything else.

^

DK shines with SnB but is actually quite capable of many other setups.

Wing

Alucardo wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

ults tend to switch between a defensive on main bar of S/B ult or corrosive, and offensive on back bar of leap or DB

Try the 2h ult - you won't be disappointed. Not only does it cut right through their penetration with a high tooltip, but it boosts your defenses at the same time. So technically it's an offensive and defensive ultimate. If you go with the Onslaught morph you get all your ult back when you execute a target with it.
I was at a resource fight yesterday just lobbing down low health players while my resources kept going up. It was actually kind of stupid.

I actually do use that from time to time, waiting for the acuity proc then once again having a 2H ult ignore resistances and auto crit is awesome, and then having all the defenses (especially when you hit tanky players) is great to keep going.

the problem I was having with it was dodge, I felt like I was missing all the time, even when trying to stun into an ult, I ended up going back to DB more often then not because I know it hits.

Ragnarock41

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

One class being able to do only one thing well is not how eso was ever intended to be nor should it ever be how ESO is, if it ever becomes that way it must be fixed asap.

It's fine. DK works well as an archer, brawler, shield play, healer, whatever you want to do. There are a lot of "turtle" DK builds out there, but that's just because their passives shine upon that particular style. This isn't to say DK isn't capable of anything else.

^

DK shines with SnB but is actually quite capable of many other setups.

Capable? yes. Competitive? Not quite. However I am hopeful, It seems like Brian is actually buffing weapon spammables, which is good news for Dk.

Davadin

Alucardo wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

One class being able to do only one thing well is not how eso was ever intended to be nor should it ever be how ESO is, if it ever becomes that way it must be fixed asap.

It's fine. DK works well as an archer, brawler, shield play, healer, whatever you want to do. There are a lot of "turtle" DK builds out there, but that's just because their passives shine upon that particular style. This isn't to say DK isn't capable of anything else.

this.

my medium DoT build consistently tops the damage board in Battleground Deathmatch (altho i die a lot too and have more assist than killing blows...) so it does work.

Alucardo wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

ults tend to switch between a defensive on main bar of S/B ult or corrosive, and offensive on back bar of leap or DB

Try the 2h ult - you won't be disappointed. Not only does it cut right through their penetration with a high tooltip, but it boosts your defenses at the same time. So technically it's an offensive and defensive ultimate. If you go with the Onslaught morph you get all your ult back when you execute a target with it.
I was at a resource fight yesterday just lobbing down low health players while my resources kept going up. It was actually kind of stupid.

the berserker morph costs too much for what's essentially a single-target, no DoT Dawnbreaker that adds some resistance.

and onslaught is hard to make it consistently a killing blow skill, especially in CP PvP where resistances are up the roof. so ur target often dies from a DoT or light attacks.

2H ulti is fun, but it's bad.

jaws343

Davadin wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

One class being able to do only one thing well is not how eso was ever intended to be nor should it ever be how ESO is, if it ever becomes that way it must be fixed asap.

It's fine. DK works well as an archer, brawler, shield play, healer, whatever you want to do. There are a lot of "turtle" DK builds out there, but that's just because their passives shine upon that particular style. This isn't to say DK isn't capable of anything else.

this.

my medium DoT build consistently tops the damage board in Battleground Deathmatch (altho i die a lot too and have more assist than killing blows...) so it does work.

Alucardo wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

ults tend to switch between a defensive on main bar of S/B ult or corrosive, and offensive on back bar of leap or DB

Try the 2h ult - you won't be disappointed. Not only does it cut right through their penetration with a high tooltip, but it boosts your defenses at the same time. So technically it's an offensive and defensive ultimate. If you go with the Onslaught morph you get all your ult back when you execute a target with it.
I was at a resource fight yesterday just lobbing down low health players while my resources kept going up. It was actually kind of stupid.

the berserker morph costs too much for what's essentially a single-target, no DoT Dawnbreaker that adds some resistance.

and onslaught is hard to make it consistently a killing blow skill, especially in CP PvP where resistances are up the roof. so ur target often dies from a DoT or light attacks.

2H ulti is fun, but it's bad.

It ignores resistances, so it doesn't matter how high their resistances are. The trick with onslaught is to know your tooltip and time the attack for execute range.

The biggest downfall of this ult is that it is hard to land. But when it does it does a ton of damage.

Davadin

jaws343 wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

One class being able to do only one thing well is not how eso was ever intended to be nor should it ever be how ESO is, if it ever becomes that way it must be fixed asap.

It's fine. DK works well as an archer, brawler, shield play, healer, whatever you want to do. There are a lot of "turtle" DK builds out there, but that's just because their passives shine upon that particular style. This isn't to say DK isn't capable of anything else.

this.

my medium DoT build consistently tops the damage board in Battleground Deathmatch (altho i die a lot too and have more assist than killing blows...) so it does work.

Alucardo wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

ults tend to switch between a defensive on main bar of S/B ult or corrosive, and offensive on back bar of leap or DB

Try the 2h ult - you won't be disappointed. Not only does it cut right through their penetration with a high tooltip, but it boosts your defenses at the same time. So technically it's an offensive and defensive ultimate. If you go with the Onslaught morph you get all your ult back when you execute a target with it.
I was at a resource fight yesterday just lobbing down low health players while my resources kept going up. It was actually kind of stupid.

the berserker morph costs too much for what's essentially a single-target, no DoT Dawnbreaker that adds some resistance.

and onslaught is hard to make it consistently a killing blow skill, especially in CP PvP where resistances are up the roof. so ur target often dies from a DoT or light attacks.

2H ulti is fun, but it's bad.

It ignores resistances, so it doesn't matter how high their resistances are. The trick with onslaught is to know your tooltip and time the attack for execute range.

The biggest downfall of this ult is that it is hard to land. But when it does it does a ton of damage.

kinda disagree.

i know my tooltip, but perhaps for my build, in BG against tons of pet sorc, or Cyrodiil against Nightblades and StamSorc, resistance isn't really my biggest issue.

But it is super easy to land, u don't think u can miss unless the target roll-dodge or something.

As DK, u have an arsenal to stun folks, so just whack them in the head when that happened. also with some poison u can immobilize them first.


It's the "meh" damage i have a problem with. Yes, even ignoring 100% resistance, this skill is meh for the cost.... I'd take Leap or Dawnbreaker any day.

jaws343

Davadin wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

One class being able to do only one thing well is not how eso was ever intended to be nor should it ever be how ESO is, if it ever becomes that way it must be fixed asap.

It's fine. DK works well as an archer, brawler, shield play, healer, whatever you want to do. There are a lot of "turtle" DK builds out there, but that's just because their passives shine upon that particular style. This isn't to say DK isn't capable of anything else.

this.

my medium DoT build consistently tops the damage board in Battleground Deathmatch (altho i die a lot too and have more assist than killing blows...) so it does work.

Alucardo wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

ults tend to switch between a defensive on main bar of S/B ult or corrosive, and offensive on back bar of leap or DB

Try the 2h ult - you won't be disappointed. Not only does it cut right through their penetration with a high tooltip, but it boosts your defenses at the same time. So technically it's an offensive and defensive ultimate. If you go with the Onslaught morph you get all your ult back when you execute a target with it.
I was at a resource fight yesterday just lobbing down low health players while my resources kept going up. It was actually kind of stupid.

the berserker morph costs too much for what's essentially a single-target, no DoT Dawnbreaker that adds some resistance.

and onslaught is hard to make it consistently a killing blow skill, especially in CP PvP where resistances are up the roof. so ur target often dies from a DoT or light attacks.

2H ulti is fun, but it's bad.

It ignores resistances, so it doesn't matter how high their resistances are. The trick with onslaught is to know your tooltip and time the attack for execute range.

The biggest downfall of this ult is that it is hard to land. But when it does it does a ton of damage.

kinda disagree.

i know my tooltip, but perhaps for my build, in BG against tons of pet sorc, or Cyrodiil against Nightblades and StamSorc, resistance isn't really my biggest issue.

But it is super easy to land, u don't think u can miss unless the target roll-dodge or something.

As DK, u have an arsenal to stun folks, so just whack them in the head when that happened. also with some poison u can immobilize them first.


It's the "meh" damage i have a problem with. Yes, even ignoring 100% resistance, this skill is meh for the cost.... I'd take Leap or Dawnbreaker any day.

Meh damage may be a build issue. My tooltip for Onslaught is 19K. It hits 30K+ crits. And that 30K+ hit is around 10K in cyro with battle spirit and protections like impen. But if you get the kill with it, that 10K hit is free and then you can turn and hit another player. Plus, you restore resources as a DK. So free 10K hit with resource return and you get all of the enemy's resistances on top of it, makes it a fairly strong ultimate.