Crit. How much do you really need.

Fluke.Slywalker

Title really. At what point can you stop worrying about increasing Crit chance? What is too much, what is too little and how does it impact.

Is it better to keep stacking it into the 60%+ or stop in the late 40's?

I understood that 50% crit means, on average every other attack you produce is a critical.

Fellwitch

I have 40% on my front bar on my tank, and I find it helps quite a lot for all of my abilities.

Alucardo

PvE or PvP? In PvP I won't go under 40%, even in heavy armor. It's not only damage you need to worry about, but your healing crits can save your life too.

D0PAMINE

Well it depends I guess. My crit falls between 40 and 50% on my DPS characters. My two focus points are wep/spell damage and wep/spell pen. I do alright.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Magic DPS 40-60, beyond that you give up to much of other stats, for Stam DPS, 50-70%, mostly because of daggers.

mairwen85

Put it this way:

50% :: ~ 1 / 2 hits is critical

60% :: ~ 2 / 3 hits are critical

70% :: ~ 3 / 4 hits are critical

80% :: ~ 4 / 5 hits are critical

90% :: ~ 5 / 6 hits are critical

100% = all hits are critical

53% is decent if you have escalating damage (like relequent / siroria); otherwise aim for 60%+

If your crit chance is higher than 63% without thief mundus, then shadow mundus will produce best results in damage output.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

mairwen85 wrote: »

Put it this way:

50% :: ~ 1 / 2 hits is critical

60% :: ~ 2 / 3 hits are critical

70% :: ~ 3 / 4 hits are critical

80% :: ~ 4 / 5 hits are critical

90% :: ~ 5 / 6 hits are critical

100% = all hits are critical

53% is decent if you have escalating damage (like relequent / siroria); otherwise aim for 60%+

If your crit chance is higher than 63% without thief mundus, then shadow mundus will produce best results in damage output.

Lover will give you more damage on pretty much all builds that have less ~16,000 penetration in pve.

Fluke.Slywalker

Well mainly PvE. It's something I have thought about with all my dps toons and read conflicting information.

mairwen85

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Put it this way:

50% :: ~ 1 / 2 hits is critical

60% :: ~ 2 / 3 hits are critical

70% :: ~ 3 / 4 hits are critical

80% :: ~ 4 / 5 hits are critical

90% :: ~ 5 / 6 hits are critical

100% = all hits are critical

53% is decent if you have escalating damage (like relequent / siroria); otherwise aim for 60%+

If your crit chance is higher than 63% without thief mundus, then shadow mundus will produce best results in damage output.

Lover will give you more damage on pretty much all builds that have less ~16,000 penetration in pve.

Unless your penetration comes from fracture and breach, in which case lover will over penetrate --- ooo matron

Lover is great for solo play and overland -- but is like stubbing your toe in vet group content.

With 66% crit chance and shadow mundus (full divines 5/5/2 set up), my Breton magplar has 90% crit damage; so dps output on critical strike is 190% of base damage. Consider that this is true for 2 out of 3 hits for all running dots and single target abilities. If penetration is provided by tank and healer, this hits hard... really hard.

Of course overland and even vMA -- I'll use Lover, because it's better in that scenario -- just not for group. In my opinion that is.

Fluke.Slywalker

This is something else I'm a little confused about. Been playing all these years and have never understood where you guys get 16,000 pen from, without losing elsewhere.

4900 from LA passive, roughly 3000 from cp. Then breach gives me 5200 if i drain everything. So basically, if I'm doing this, without a set that gives and pen or a sharpened weapon, then I would use the lover regardless? But then I lose the crit (as mentioned abiove) from dropping theif or Shadow.

On a stam the lover would then be the goto mundus no matter the situation because you lose the passive.

Taking out the possible debuffs from fellow teammates of course.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

mairwen85 wrote: »

Lover is great for solo play and overland -- but is like stubbing your toe in vet group content.

With 66% crit chance and shadow mundus (full divines 5/5/2 set up), my Breton magplar has 90% crit damage; so dps output on critical strike is 190% of base damage. Consider that this is true for 2 out of 3 hits for all running dots and single target abilities. If penetration is provided by tank and healer, this hits hard... really hard.

Of course overland and even vMA -- I'll use Lover, because it's better in that scenario -- just not for group. In my opinion that is.

Not everyone plays Nightblade you know.

TheInfernalRage

I have a warden tank that's using two staves and the most efficient way to dish out Major Fracture is to use Night Mother's Gaze. I need to critically hit though in order to debuff the enemy. At 34% crit rate, Major Fracture is up regularly at around 95%. Since I'm also using Iceheart, I also notice that it procs regularly as well. This is also observable with my sorc tank that's using power surge for self heal. At 32-34%, I do not have any problem dealing critical hits.

So I think the bare minimum percentage one must have is roughly around 35% or higher.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

mairwen85 wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Put it this way:

50% :: ~ 1 / 2 hits is critical

60% :: ~ 2 / 3 hits are critical

70% :: ~ 3 / 4 hits are critical

80% :: ~ 4 / 5 hits are critical

90% :: ~ 5 / 6 hits are critical

100% = all hits are critical

53% is decent if you have escalating damage (like relequent / siroria); otherwise aim for 60%+

If your crit chance is higher than 63% without thief mundus, then shadow mundus will produce best results in damage output.

Lover will give you more damage on pretty much all builds that have less ~16,000 penetration in pve.

Unless your penetration comes from fracture and breach, in which case lover will over penetrate --- ooo matron

Lover is great for solo play and overland -- but is like stubbing your toe in vet group content.

With 66% crit chance and shadow mundus (full divines 5/5/2 set up), my Breton magplar has 90% crit damage; so dps output on critical strike is 190% of base damage. Consider that this is true for 2 out of 3 hits for all running dots and single target abilities. If penetration is provided by tank and healer, this hits hard... really hard.

Of course overland and even vMA -- I'll use Lover, because it's better in that scenario -- just not for group. In my opinion that is.

Oh my Stendarr. Obviously I meant with both self buffed penetration, like sharpened and the cp pen nodes and sets like spriggans/spinners and debuffs on the target, like the major/minor debuffs a you are talking about. And obviously I meant pre-lover. Didn't believe that I needed to spell that out.

Overland mobs have only 9100 resists but they die so fast anyways, you don't need to optimize for that content, when I and most most people say pve, they mean dungeons and trials. vMA mobs vary from 9100, 12,100 and 18,200, you can see a good list here- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/373925/veteran-maelstrom-arena-mob-resistances.

Also your link doesn't work.

mairwen85

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

Not everyone plays Nightblade you know.

Interesting. Who said that they did? Where do I refer specifically to Nightblade?

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

I'm not disagreeing with you, or your stance that if penetration is low, that you can get a decent chunk and do better damage with the Lover.
I get what you're saying... but penetration is easy to build up to 7 - 8K without any special consideration (simply as a side effect). Add those major buff/debuffs and you exceed the pen cap very quickly in group content.

For your benefit as my link didn't work:

Over penetration



Thanks for the link -- useful

CMDR_Un1k0rn

on my main, a stamblade that pretty much follows the meta, I get 70% on DW bar, 60% on bow bar.

It is very, very fun.

Fluke.Slywalker

So simply put, if I understand it:- anything between 47-67 crit is fine, 47 being minimum and 67 being pretty much the max you'd want.

Mundus - Lover and self drain in solo situations and theif/shadow in a group/trial. if you're mag.

If you're stam, you'd need lover regardless right?

Sorted, thanks

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

mairwen85 wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

Not everyone plays Nightblade you know.

Interesting. Who said that they did? Where do I refer specifically to Nightblade?

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

I'm not disagreeing with you, or your stance that if penetration is low, that you can get a decent chunk and do better damage with the Lover.
I get what you're saying... but penetration is easy to build up to 7 - 8K without any special consideration (simply as a side effect). Add those major buff/debuffs and you exceed the pen cap very quickly in group content.

For your benefit as my link didn't work:

Over penetration


Thanks for the link -- useful

You say it is easy to over pen? If you are talking about with premade groups, sure, with a good tank that has alkosh, with a good healer who provides at least 2 synergies or play with a sorc, and an infused crusher you get ~10k on the debuff side of things. But, and it is a big but, that is not the norm in pugs. I almost exclusively use the group finder and you are lucky if the tank has the right morph of puncture, much less crusher or alkosh. I pay great attention to my combat metrics after each dungeon I run, most of the time I have ~15k pen as a Stam DPS and 10-13k as a mag, as the amount of tanks that run ransack instead of Peirce armor is amazingly high. That is with my self buffed 9k that I build into every toon.


Also your link still does not work.

ankeor

I don't feel comfortable under 88-90% crit chance.

mairwen85

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO under those circumstances, I can see your argument. Certainly. Just not the norm for me, I guess. But then I do try to pug a s little as possible (I'll always attempt to enter the queue with at least one other person).

As for my link, you're not missing much -- just Kenneth Williams pulling a silly face

Casul

All of it.

Kuramas9tails

mairwen85 wrote: »

Put it this way:

50% :: ~ 1 / 2 hits is critical

60% :: ~ 2 / 3 hits are critical

70% :: ~ 3 / 4 hits are critical

80% :: ~ 4 / 5 hits are critical

90% :: ~ 5 / 6 hits are critical

100% = all hits are critical

53% is decent if you have escalating damage (like relequent / siroria); otherwise aim for 60%+

If your crit chance is higher than 63% without thief mundus, then shadow mundus will produce best results in damage output.

Please tell me you are joking.

There's a cap on Crit. You can not have 100% crit chance.

I would NEVER go above 60% because after that, there's nothing to be gained for Crit.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Put it this way:

50% :: ~ 1 / 2 hits is critical

60% :: ~ 2 / 3 hits are critical

70% :: ~ 3 / 4 hits are critical

80% :: ~ 4 / 5 hits are critical

90% :: ~ 5 / 6 hits are critical

100% = all hits are critical

53% is decent if you have escalating damage (like relequent / siroria); otherwise aim for 60%+

If your crit chance is higher than 63% without thief mundus, then shadow mundus will produce best results in damage output.

Please tell me you are joking.

There's a cap on Crit. You can not have 100% crit chance.

I would NEVER go above 60% because after that, there's nothing to be gained for Crit.

you sure can get 100% weapon crit.

mairwen85

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Put it this way:

50% :: ~ 1 / 2 hits is critical

60% :: ~ 2 / 3 hits are critical

70% :: ~ 3 / 4 hits are critical

80% :: ~ 4 / 5 hits are critical

90% :: ~ 5 / 6 hits are critical

100% = all hits are critical

53% is decent if you have escalating damage (like relequen / siroria); otherwise aim for 60%+

If your crit chance is higher than 63% without thief mundus, then shadow mundus will produce best results in damage output.

Please tell me you are joking.

There's a cap on Crit. You can not have 100% crit chance.

I would NEVER go above 60% because after that, there's nothing to be gained for Crit.

did I advise to do so? -- I was providing information on what the numbers mean in terms of reference, not implementation. All other information I posted states to retain critical chance in the region of 60-63%...

MartiniDaniels

70% feels optimal

Aznarb

60% for a DPS I would say, that what I reach on my DPS char and I feel good with.
for Tank and Heal 40% are enough.

T3hasiangod

There seems to be a fair amount of misinformation in this thread. Let's go through and correct everything.

mairwen85 wrote: »

Put it this way:

50% :: ~ 1 / 2 hits is critical

60% :: ~ 2 / 3 hits are critical

70% :: ~ 3 / 4 hits are critical

80% :: ~ 4 / 5 hits are critical

90% :: ~ 5 / 6 hits are critical

100% = all hits are critical

53% is decent if you have escalating damage (like relequent / siroria); otherwise aim for 60%+

If your crit chance is higher than 63% without thief mundus, then shadow mundus will produce best results in damage output.

False. There is no one "set-point" where Thief will always be stronger than the Shadow. It will depend on your Crit Chance and Crit Damage modifier before any Mundus are used. The mathematical breakeven point with 7 divines is given below:

Crit Chance/Crit Damage = 0.109/0.19

You can solve for one by providing the other. Most people will go with Crit Damage since that has the least amount of fluctuation between builds. If you are solving for Crit Chance, anything above your calculated value indicates that Shadow will be stronger. Anything below indicates that Thief will be stronger. If you are solving for Crit Damage, anything higher than your calculated value indicates that the Thief will be stronger, and anything below indicates that Shadow will be stronger. But because different builds have different Crit Damage due to varying CP and Major Force uptime, the breakeven point will vary slightly. The general rule is any build above ~47 percent crit will be better off running Shadow.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Put it this way:

50% :: ~ 1 / 2 hits is critical

60% :: ~ 2 / 3 hits are critical

70% :: ~ 3 / 4 hits are critical

80% :: ~ 4 / 5 hits are critical

90% :: ~ 5 / 6 hits are critical

100% = all hits are critical

53% is decent if you have escalating damage (like relequent / siroria); otherwise aim for 60%+

If your crit chance is higher than 63% without thief mundus, then shadow mundus will produce best results in damage output.

Lover will give you more damage on pretty much all builds that have less ~16,000 penetration in pve.

False. The percentage increase from Lover will depend on your average penetration prior to the application of the Lover. This percentage increase must also be compared to the percentage increase from Thief and Shadow. For example, on a build that has an average penetration of 15214 (LA passive + Major Breach + 25 into Spell Erosion + Infused Torug's Crusher), using the Lover will provide ~6.35 percent increase in damage, irrespective of Crit Chance and Crit Damage. If this build has 70 percent crit chance and 190 percent crit damage (e.g. a Nightblade or Templar running Mother's Sorrow), then the Shadow provides ~8.16 percent increase in damage.

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Put it this way:

50% :: ~ 1 / 2 hits is critical

60% :: ~ 2 / 3 hits are critical

70% :: ~ 3 / 4 hits are critical

80% :: ~ 4 / 5 hits are critical

90% :: ~ 5 / 6 hits are critical

100% = all hits are critical

53% is decent if you have escalating damage (like relequent / siroria); otherwise aim for 60%+

If your crit chance is higher than 63% without thief mundus, then shadow mundus will produce best results in damage output.

Please tell me you are joking.

There's a cap on Crit. You can not have 100% crit chance.

I would NEVER go above 60% because after that, there's nothing to be gained for Crit.

Quasi-false. You can have higher than 100 percent crit chance, but anything above 100 percent won't contribute anything more than 100 percent.

In addition, there are many builds that go above 60 percent crit that are stronger than builds that go below 60 percent crit.

There is no "cutoff" point for crit. There will be opportunity costs for investing too much into crit, but there is no value at which point investing more into crit is always going to be a bad thing.

Stamina DPS can regularly hit above 80 percent crit with Advancing Yokeda. Magicka DPS can regularly hit above 60 percent crit with Mother's Sorrow. These builds are easily capable of matching the best set-ups.

CleymenZero

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Lover is great for solo play and overland -- but is like stubbing your toe in vet group content.

With 66% crit chance and shadow mundus (full divines 5/5/2 set up), my Breton magplar has 90% crit damage; so dps output on critical strike is 190% of base damage. Consider that this is true for 2 out of 3 hits for all running dots and single target abilities. If penetration is provided by tank and healer, this hits hard... really hard.

Of course overland and even vMA -- I'll use Lover, because it's better in that scenario -- just not for group. In my opinion that is.

Not everyone plays Nightblade you know.

He just mentionned that he plays on a magplar.... I play all classes and he is right.

Jeremy

Fluke.Slywalker wrote: »

Title really. At what point can you stop worrying about increasing Crit chance? What is too much, what is too little and how does it impact.

Is it better to keep stacking it into the 60%+ or stop in the late 40's?

I understood that 50% crit means, on average every other attack you produce is a critical.

In the 40 ~ 50% range seemed ideal to me.

Jhalin

A tank with puncture (Major Fracture, Major Breach) = 5280
- Breach supplied by healer’s EleDrain if tank runs Ransack
A tank with Alkosh = 3010
Dps with pen CP = ~3000
Tank or healer with Infused Crusher = 2108
A Stamplar or Templar healer with PotL (Minor Fracture, Minor Breach) = 1320

Extra: LA armor passive = 4884

So without much fanfare that’s about 15k pen generally, and overpen for mag. It’s pretty typical in a trial situation even if uptime aren’t perfect

So lover would be mostly pointless unless your tanks and healers aren’t actually doing their job, in which case you’ve got bigger problems than pen%

As to the OP, as long as you’re making up for the raw damage loss with the increased damage from crits, try to boost crit. The goal range starting out is a little over 50%, but with better sets you’ll see over 60% and some people reach into the 70%s but don’t ask me how lol

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

@T3hasiangod bleh False. The percentage increase from Lover will depend on your average penetration prior to the application of the Lover. This percentage increase must also be compared to the percentage increase from Thief and Shadow. For example, on a build that has an average penetration of 15214 (LA passive + Major Breach + 25 into Spell Erosion + Infused Torug's Crusher), using the Lover will provide ~6.35 percent increase in damage, irrespective of Crit Chance and Crit Damage. If this build has 70 percent crit chance and 190 percent crit damage (e.g. a Nightblade or Templar running Mother's Sorrow), then the Shadow provides ~8.16 percent increase in damage.

T3hasiangod? more like T3hasianDwight.




that is why i said "pretty much all", of course there are outliers, like in your specific examples, yes shadow would be better. take away crusher or use a different set other then morrow sorrow, it is likely a different story.