we need an indicator that a keep is under siege BEFORE its flagged

Dutchessx

idk wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Some days I feel sorry for Brian.

I feel sorry for Brian every day because I assume he hates all the problems of AvA as much as the players, but isn't enabled by his employer to do what is necessary to make meaningful changes.

ESO AvA was supposed to have NPCs players could hire who could perform functions like watch keeps. It's not reasonable to think players are going to spend their time doing that. I know some will -- I have ! -- but usually that's not going to be the case. ESO AvA is an unfinished game.

Plus even if it's scouted, there is usually no urgency to defend keeps because the players who would are chasing oticks. As much as anything else, the culture of the game is broken. It's full of players who aren't, IMO, fundamentally interested in PVP. They enjoy grindy MMO things like what taking keeps has become.

We did have NPCs we could "hire" but they were not designed to warn us a keep was under attack. We placed them and they would help us defend the keep. Mages were especially good.

I think Zos removed them because it permitted a small group to be able to successfully defend a keep under attack. Maybe if a normal size group was defending it made things OP. I remember using them.

As for leaving scouts at key keeps, we used to do that. We used to do a great many things. Part of it is probably changes Zos has made over the years to how we earn points, but much is also due to the leadership we had then has long left the game.

Leadership determines tactics used. So many of the old tactics that would still be effective today are not are not used.

I remember I think they were called mercenaries - every now and then you see them in the guild stores.

idk

Dutchessx wrote: »

idk wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Some days I feel sorry for Brian.

I feel sorry for Brian every day because I assume he hates all the problems of AvA as much as the players, but isn't enabled by his employer to do what is necessary to make meaningful changes.

ESO AvA was supposed to have NPCs players could hire who could perform functions like watch keeps. It's not reasonable to think players are going to spend their time doing that. I know some will -- I have ! -- but usually that's not going to be the case. ESO AvA is an unfinished game.

Plus even if it's scouted, there is usually no urgency to defend keeps because the players who would are chasing oticks. As much as anything else, the culture of the game is broken. It's full of players who aren't, IMO, fundamentally interested in PVP. They enjoy grindy MMO things like what taking keeps has become.

We did have NPCs we could "hire" but they were not designed to warn us a keep was under attack. We placed them and they would help us defend the keep. Mages were especially good.

I think Zos removed them because it permitted a small group to be able to successfully defend a keep under attack. Maybe if a normal size group was defending it made things OP. I remember using them.

As for leaving scouts at key keeps, we used to do that. We used to do a great many things. Part of it is probably changes Zos has made over the years to how we earn points, but much is also due to the leadership we had then has long left the game.

Leadership determines tactics used. So many of the old tactics that would still be effective today are not are not used.

I remember I think they were called mercenaries - every now and then you see them in the guild stores.

There were two different types. Off hand I cannot be certain of their name due to the time that has passed, but I think the mercs were melee and mages range.

Haashhtaag

vamp_emily wrote: »

I'm the most hated indicator of Cyrodiil.. or at least I used to be, now I try to be silent when playing PvP.

This is kind of how it goes ( zone chat ):

Me: Zerg of EP leaving Chal now
Me: Zerg just past the chal gate
Me: Need help at Bleakers
Me: Bleakers UA
Zone Player: who the <blank blank blank> cares about bleakers

Me: Inc Nik 10 AD
Me: need help at Nik
Me: Nik UA
Me: Omg... why is it I can show up at 80% of the UAs but 3 bars of DC can't?
Zone Player: Emily <blank blank blank>! We don't play for you.

Indicators don't work.

i think that has to do more with you than other players. Same for a specific EP player that rhymes with shylena.

OtarTheMad

idk wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Some days I feel sorry for Brian.

I feel sorry for Brian every day because I assume he hates all the problems of AvA as much as the players, but isn't enabled by his employer to do what is necessary to make meaningful changes.

ESO AvA was supposed to have NPCs players could hire who could perform functions like watch keeps. It's not reasonable to think players are going to spend their time doing that. I know some will -- I have ! -- but usually that's not going to be the case. ESO AvA is an unfinished game.

Plus even if it's scouted, there is usually no urgency to defend keeps because the players who would are chasing oticks. As much as anything else, the culture of the game is broken. It's full of players who aren't, IMO, fundamentally interested in PVP. They enjoy grindy MMO things like what taking keeps has become.

We did have NPCs we could "hire" but they were not designed to warn us a keep was under attack. We placed them and they would help us defend the keep. Mages were especially good.

I think Zos removed them because it permitted a small group to be able to successfully defend a keep under attack. Maybe if a normal size group was defending it made things OP. I remember using them.

As for leaving scouts at key keeps, we used to do that. We used to do a great many things. Part of it is probably changes Zos has made over the years to how we earn points, but much is also due to the leadership we had then has long left the game.

Leadership determines tactics used. So many of the old tactics that would still be effective today are not are not used.

They got rid of the mercenaries we could buy because of a bug players exploited that made them unkillable. They were awesome to use and wish they'd come back without that bug.

zyk

idk wrote: »

Dutchessx wrote: »

I remember I think they were called mercenaries - every now and then you see them in the guild stores.

There were two different types. Off hand I cannot be certain of their name due to the time that has passed, but I think the mercs were melee and mages range.

There was supposed to be a greater range of NPCs available. They were most likely removed for performance purposes -- like critters were.

leeux

Early warning in not enough when you fight disorganized against a stack to 30 to 50 enemies... you can shout in chat "X under attack by raid of Y" and people have literally no time to port in before the keep is flagged. And we all know that organized groups don't stop what they're doing to go to defend keeps normally, as they often prefer to let them go and re-take them.

It happened to me yesterday when DC pushed Roe with more than 30 in numbers, I warned in zone chat before the siege even started, hadn't even time to place defensive siege that the door was already down in less than 60 secs, and there was no defense possible whatsoever.

Even if you want to defend and help your alliance, you're restricted from doing that by the current set of rules in place.

JamilaRaj

redspecter23 wrote: »

One could argue that guard duty is boring and not very rewarding, which is also true. ZOS could add some incentive to being an active lookout, but I have a hard time coming up with something appropriate.

Boring and not very rewarding, but still less boring and more rewarding than other options, particularly riding to siege something, because lurking & fast travel allows you to cherry pick more promising sieges.

Joy_Division

Soul_Demon wrote: »

vamp_emily wrote: »

I'm the most hated indicator of Cyrodiil.. or at least I used to be, now I try to be silent when playing PvP.

This is kind of how it goes ( zone chat ):

Me: Zerg of EP leaving Chal now
Me: Zerg just past the chal gate
Me: Need help at Bleakers
Me: Bleakers UA
Zone Player: who the <blank blank blank> cares about bleakers

Me: Inc Nik 10 AD
Me: need help at Nik
Me: Nik UA
Me: Omg... why is it I can show up at 80% of the UAs but 3 bars of DC can't?
Zone Player: Emily <blank blank blank>! We don't play for you.

Indicators don't work.

Just a suggestion, as it could help somewhat where organized raids are concerned and getting the response you want.

Don't use the word 'zerg' as its laughable and a meme now. List approximate size of attacking group, where they are arriving or heading (appear to be). A good example would be "half raid, inc to brk fd." or possibly "raid plus passing gate at chal". I know some raids out there appreciate the quick estimate to help them decide how, when and by what means they go to defend things. Generic terms tend to be ignored as some players call "zerg" for three gankers where others call group of 10 not sieging "zerg attacking Ash" and yet other scream in zone "zerg inc to bleaks" only with 60+. I think its possible that the message you are sending may get more attention that way- if it interests you.

This is actually a good point.

A quick way for me (and I suppose a lot of people) to not put much stock in a player's call outs is to respond to cries of AD zerg at Sej, and show up only to see like 8 or 9 who are already being harassed that they're not even sieging.

There are people I always listen to and there are people I ignore. It's such in zone chat if I see a call out to any front door by a certain player [PC NA EP players will know what I'm talking about], I most certainly am not going there.

As for the "Zone player" in Emily's example, they also should be ignored. Be accurate with call outs and there are people who respond if they can. Sometimes stuff will flag or I'm stuck in combat, but just because people don;t show up doesn't necessarily mean you're being ignored.

idk

zyk wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Dutchessx wrote: »

I remember I think they were called mercenaries - every now and then you see them in the guild stores.

There were two different types. Off hand I cannot be certain of their name due to the time that has passed, but I think the mercs were melee and mages range.

There was supposed to be a greater range of NPCs available. They were most likely removed for performance purposes -- like critters were.

Otar, the post just before yours, is probably correct. idk, it was so long ago.

I will say I like how they brought back camps. It was a little OP back in the day, lol.

Minno

Joy_Division wrote: »

Some days I feel sorry for Brian.

"You need to do something to stop stacking on the Emperor ring and spread out!"

"You need to do something to stop people from PvDooring empty keeps!"

That being said, I do agree keep transit stones should be able to used anywhere.

agree. and add more points on the map to use them.

If its too keep vs keep zergy, id love to port to like a random part of the map that has a cool terrain to just have chill fights.

Katahdin

Dutchessx wrote: »

One of the things I have noticed no matter what server I have been on is people don’t maintain keep walls to 100% anymore or they don’t repair breached doors to 100%. I have also noticed people not putting a keep is under attack right away in zone. If people would do these simple things it would give groups a chance to respond when siege on a keep us discovered. I don’t know what faction or campaign or server you play on but might check and see if that is happening.

Because repair kits cost 200 AP and only give 60 back. They should cost 50 AP at the most. They also cost 90 gold but with the nerfing of the ability to make gold if you do anything besides farm 24/7, no one wants to spend the gold any more.

adirondack

Joy_Division wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Just a suggestion, as it could help somewhat where organized raids are concerned and getting the response you want.

Don't use the word 'zerg' as its laughable and a meme now. List approximate size of attacking group, where they are arriving or heading (appear to be). A good example would be "half raid, inc to brk fd." or possibly "raid plus passing gate at chal". I know some raids out there appreciate the quick estimate to help them decide how, when and by what means they go to defend things. Generic terms tend to be ignored as some players call "zerg" for three gankers where others call group of 10 not sieging "zerg attacking Ash" and yet other scream in zone "zerg inc to bleaks" only with 60+. I think its possible that the message you are sending may get more attention that way- if it interests you.

This is actually a good point.

A quick way for me (and I suppose a lot of people) to not put much stock in a player's call outs is to respond to cries of AD zerg at Sej, and show up only to see like 8 or 9 who are already being harassed that they're not even sieging.

There are people I always listen to and there are people I ignore. It's such in zone chat if I see a call out to any front door by a certain player [PC NA EP players will know what I'm talking about], I most certainly am not going there.

As for the "Zone player" in Emily's example, they also should be ignored. Be accurate with call outs and there are people who respond if they can. Sometimes stuff will flag or I'm stuck in combat, but just because people don;t show up doesn't necessarily mean you're being ignored.

I fully agree. I hate it when people yell in zone chat something highly useful like "ROE!". Admittedly, the caps really do help. But what about Roe is particularly interesting? Do you like the keep? Are there two DC tower farmers at the mine? Perhaps you are telling someone else that the proper spelling of the keep?

It would be ever so much more helpful is people would say something with a quantitative as well as qualitative statement. For example, "12+ DC at Roe FD, ram is up, door at 85%". This provides both a position and a level of urgency.

With the zergs we're all facing (yes, every faction zergs) it seems like we should be stating "55 EP at Alessia FD, free beer and brats at Fare"

Ray

Electric_Pickle

Dutchessx wrote: »

One of the things I have noticed no matter what server I have been on is people don’t maintain keep walls to 100% anymore or they don’t repair breached doors to 100%. I have also noticed people not putting a keep is under attack right away in zone. If people would do these simple things it would give groups a chance to respond when siege on a keep us discovered. I don’t know what faction or campaign or server you play on but might check and see if that is happening.

That's a huge problem with AD. I've spent lots of time fixing walls (and doors) when it was clear an attack was imminent. Doesn't take long to flag when a wall is at 70% or a door at 80.

Kikke

Scouts... Thats how its always been done.

Wing

if you want to PvDoor, there is plenty of PvE content in the game

please leave cyro for the real PvP players looking to actually fight.

Mr_Walker

Great idea, that way before a ram hits its second strike on a door we could have a whole server pop kerbstomping us.

Didn't think it all the way through, did you OP?

IxSTALKERxI

OtarTheMad wrote: »

idk wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Some days I feel sorry for Brian.

I feel sorry for Brian every day because I assume he hates all the problems of AvA as much as the players, but isn't enabled by his employer to do what is necessary to make meaningful changes.

ESO AvA was supposed to have NPCs players could hire who could perform functions like watch keeps. It's not reasonable to think players are going to spend their time doing that. I know some will -- I have ! -- but usually that's not going to be the case. ESO AvA is an unfinished game.

Plus even if it's scouted, there is usually no urgency to defend keeps because the players who would are chasing oticks. As much as anything else, the culture of the game is broken. It's full of players who aren't, IMO, fundamentally interested in PVP. They enjoy grindy MMO things like what taking keeps has become.

We did have NPCs we could "hire" but they were not designed to warn us a keep was under attack. We placed them and they would help us defend the keep. Mages were especially good.

I think Zos removed them because it permitted a small group to be able to successfully defend a keep under attack. Maybe if a normal size group was defending it made things OP. I remember using them.

As for leaving scouts at key keeps, we used to do that. We used to do a great many things. Part of it is probably changes Zos has made over the years to how we earn points, but much is also due to the leadership we had then has long left the game.

Leadership determines tactics used. So many of the old tactics that would still be effective today are not are not used.

They got rid of the mercenaries we could buy because of a bug players exploited that made them unkillable. They were awesome to use and wish they'd come back without that bug.

They are still bugged and still exist I believe. They never removed them from the game, just removed the ability to purchase them lol. They actually got character copied over to console to...

Merlight

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Great idea, that way before a ram hits its second strike on a door we could have a whole server pop kerbstomping us.

Didn't think it all the way through, did you OP?

Neither did you. OP didn't give much detail, but it could easily be done so that only a limited number of players can get in. For example transit shrine enters emergency mode: port-out disabled, respawn restricted to nearby area (like tent), port-in limited to 4-8 players per resource held.

Personally I think there's no need to change the mechanism, it's just not like the world would crumble if it was changed somehow. However, there are things in Cyrodiil in much bigger need of change.

josh.lackey_ESO

This is why there is a zone chat. Scouting is a tactical part of the AvA war. Rushing a keep with an organized siege group to ambush a keep and flag it suddenly is a time-honored strategy for moving the map.

Also, with a 90% threshold, keeps would self-flag whenever the walls max health upgraded. As is so often the case, a lot of suggestions come from a place of inexperience. But whoever is the loudest on the forums gets catered to, even though they rarely demonstrate a full understand the issue they are complaining about.

OtarTheMad

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

idk wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Some days I feel sorry for Brian.

I feel sorry for Brian every day because I assume he hates all the problems of AvA as much as the players, but isn't enabled by his employer to do what is necessary to make meaningful changes.

ESO AvA was supposed to have NPCs players could hire who could perform functions like watch keeps. It's not reasonable to think players are going to spend their time doing that. I know some will -- I have ! -- but usually that's not going to be the case. ESO AvA is an unfinished game.

Plus even if it's scouted, there is usually no urgency to defend keeps because the players who would are chasing oticks. As much as anything else, the culture of the game is broken. It's full of players who aren't, IMO, fundamentally interested in PVP. They enjoy grindy MMO things like what taking keeps has become.

We did have NPCs we could "hire" but they were not designed to warn us a keep was under attack. We placed them and they would help us defend the keep. Mages were especially good.

I think Zos removed them because it permitted a small group to be able to successfully defend a keep under attack. Maybe if a normal size group was defending it made things OP. I remember using them.

As for leaving scouts at key keeps, we used to do that. We used to do a great many things. Part of it is probably changes Zos has made over the years to how we earn points, but much is also due to the leadership we had then has long left the game.

Leadership determines tactics used. So many of the old tactics that would still be effective today are not are not used.

They got rid of the mercenaries we could buy because of a bug players exploited that made them unkillable. They were awesome to use and wish they'd come back without that bug.

They are still bugged and still exist I believe. They never removed them from the game, just removed the ability to purchase them lol. They actually got character copied over to console to...

That's hilarious. I remember them saying they were going to try to fix them but I guess it got put on the back burner.

Mr_Walker

Merlight wrote: »

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Great idea, that way before a ram hits its second strike on a door we could have a whole server pop kerbstomping us.

Didn't think it all the way through, did you OP?

Neither did you. OP didn't give much detail, but it could easily be done so that only a limited number of players can get in. For example transit shrine enters emergency mode: port-out disabled, respawn restricted to nearby area (like tent), port-in limited to 4-8 players per resource held.

These are all terrible ideas.

Sandman929

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

There is already an indicator. It's called player scouting and zone chat.

Every now and then I do see a little nugget of actual information in zone, but you have to look fast before it gets buried by angry children fighting with misspelled words.

zyk

The current system is broken because it promotes PVE when the rules of the game are supposed to promote PVP.

We're supposed to be fighting over those keeps. We're supposed to want to defend them, and as PVP players, we're supposed to want them to be defended.

Players aren't supposed to have to come up with the answers for these problems. There are supposed to be highly qualified people paid to figure it out full time.

Whatever the solutions may be, it's clear there's a major problem because too many keep takes are pure PVE.

Merlight

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

They are still bugged and still exist I believe. They never removed them from the game, just removed the ability to purchase them lol. They actually got character copied over to console to...

Not sure whether they can still be used, I'm keeping this last one.

msalvia

zyk wrote: »

msalvia wrote: »

Yeah, I agree that this takes away some of the skill and strategy of PvP. Basically, changing this would further entrench the "numbers are everything" nature of PvP.

It's actually the opposite. As someone who shows up to defend keeps, it's normally the defenders getting zerged down 10-50:1.

I agree, but I'm not sure how this "fix" solves the problem. If a keep is getting zerged, I'm not sure an indicator appearing 1 minute or two earlier would help that much--unless there is not scout there, in which case the keep deserves to be lost.

Elong

The way it is currently is fine, however, there was an oversight from the developers when they increased the HP of walls, they forgot to increase the HP of doors. Perhaps they could actually fix this finally?

disintegr8

I think it is fine as it is. You need to give small groups a chance at taking keeps and large organized groups should be able to take keeps without much resistance if they have the firepower. If nobody is prepared to watch the keeps, that is the risk you take.

I'm also not sure how you'd define 'under attack'. A wall or door under 50% is straight forward but most of the time walls and doors are left at about 75%, so if you were using health, most keeps would be marked as permanently 'under attack'.

If all it took was 1 or 2 siege weapons to get a keep marked as 'under attack', people would just run around deploying siege weapons near keeps, causing defenders to run around chasing shadows.

leeux

IMO there are several problems that conspire to make things worse (from a defender's PoV ofc,) and maybe some are specific to AD in Vivec PC/NA, not sure, as I don't play other factions in Cyrodiil:

1. Cultural/Play-style problem -> There are just a portion of the people that actually wants to come help defenses, even at our back keeps.
2. Most people prefer to wait until the defense looks to be at least possible, before they show up.
3. Guilds/Organized groups (there are exceptions ofc.) sometimes require a time before they drop what they are doing to come help, and only do that if it looks like the help is needed... As time it's of the essence, it often looks like they come after the keep is already taken to re-take, but I'm sure that's not the intention in many/most cases,
4. The change/bug/whatever that was made that left walls and doors stuck at 75% HP certainly made things a lot easier for attackers, specially at targeting undefended or just recently retaken keeps. The HP doesn't seem to regen very fast at all, so if nobody stops to repair, they seem to be stuck at lower health for a long time. I repair when I can, but at points feel likes wasting time due to the fact that you know that when an attack comes, there will be probably no defense possible.
5. The super faction stacks that normally move together (it happens on all alliances, I'm not pointing fingers) that makes super difficult to defend unless you have enough critical mass on your side, or a super coordinated group that can push/bomb the larger numbers that are normally attacking these days, so then most people don't even show up, knowing that in all likelihood, high chances are there won't be those critical numbers.

I personally like defenses myself, they are awesome and you sometimes feel like you can make a difference (in my case at least) for you team even when playing solo, but it has come to a point where 9 times out of 10, the defense is lost before the fight even started, and that has been a problem these last couple of weeks.