Is necromancy banned in Summerset?

Lyserus

^This
Daedric worship is strictly banned, but necromancy is just a special kind of conjuration magic right? not necessarily daedric related.
Necromancy is banned by mage guild, as we see in summerset chapter, mage guild has only limited authority on main island
So, is necromancy completely banned in summerset?

Siohwenoeht

I'd say try psijics aren't fond of it. They kicked mannimarco out when they found out about his experiments.

I'm not sure if the sapiarchs have an opinion on it but I'd imagine they'd have the authority on the main island to say yay or nay.

essi2

The Psijiic Order also forbids Necromancy https://imperial-library.info/content/black-arts-trial

When this book was written Necromancy was only illegal in Morrowind, but it says that anyone not Altmer caught practicing in Summerset will be punished. Basically practicing in Summerset requires permission.
https://imperial-library.info/content/preparation-corpse

Telenger straight up claims Necromancy is banned in Summerset. https://imperial-library.info/content/words-and-power-questions


These are the only sources I was able to find with a simple search.

ArchMikem

Lyserus wrote: »

^This
Daedric worship is strictly banned, but necromancy is just a special kind of conjuration magic right? not necessarily daedric related.

Necro-philia is just a special kind of love, right?

Nemesis7884

isnt necromancy banned everywhere?

MLGProPlayer

It's banned everywhere.

essi2

Despite the bans on necromancy in Morrowind and within the Mages Guild, it technically remained legal in Cyrodiil. In fact, there have been many times in the history of the Imperial Province where necromancy was extensively practiced, and even publicly tolerated. The only known period that necromancy was supposedly abolished across the Empire was during the reign of Reman II in the late First Era

The Summerset Isles was the original homeland of not only Mannimarco, but the Direnni clan of Altmer who are remembered as among the first to unlock the secrets of summoning souls. Nevertheless, the land of the Altmer is arguably even less hospitable to necromancers than Valenwood. A few elite Altmer are allowed some study of necromancy, but their research seems to be centered around the extension of mortal lifespans, rather than the more conventional uses of necromancy. Regardless, these sanctioned necromancers are understood to be exceptions to a very strict rule. Any investigation into soul manipulation, including soul trapping, was considered akin to necromancy and thus forbidden. Unsanctioned necromancy in the Isles is subject to the worst possible punishments

It is highly discouraged basically everywhere, and illegal on the local level in most places. And as one of the referances I posted earlier suggests, Only allowed in a limited capacity for privileged Altmer in Summerset.


TLDR; Yes, Necromancy is banned effectively everywhere, including the Summerset Isles.

psychotrip

Like everything else regarding the Altmer, the answer is confusing, contradictory, and depends on whether you're looking at pre or post ESO lore.

In pre ESO lore, necromancy was practiced by the upper classes, but primarily as a means of extending their own lives "even further" (in old lore altmer lived longer than other elves). This was basically an open secret.

If I were to speculate I'd say the Altmer ban using necromancy on other mer, but would be fine with raising dead men or beasts.

In post ESO lore it's completely illegal in every way no matter what. And yet, strangely, there's an Altmer ghost in Firsthold being forced to trade with the player, and that's...okay I guess?

In terms of daedric magic, the book liminal bridges claims that traffick with daedra is a basic component of conjuration. Not necessarily worship, but you need to deal with the devil per se in order to summon daedra.

Altmer have always had a bonus to conjuration in the mainline games, so it's safe to assume the old lore Altmer were fine with this. The book liminal bridges also references Altmer books about conjuration and dealing with daedra. I always assumed they saw magic in a pragmatic, almost scientific way. I never saw them as superstitious or ultra religious. In fact, (admittedly biased) dialogue from Morrowind claimed the Altmer were barely religious at all in tbe 3rd era.

In post ESO lore, any daedric summoning results in a death sentence. This is displayed in an Auridon quest where an npc claims that summoning any daedra, even an atronach, is a death sentence. Made it pretty awkward to play that quest on an Altmer sorcerer.

So yeah in short: it depends on the game. There's not a lot of internal consistency with Altmer lore. I'll leave you to decide which version of the Altmer is more intetesting.

Danikat

psychotrip wrote: »

Like everything else regarding the Altmer, the answer is confusing, contradictory, and depends on whether you're looking at pre or post ESO lore.

In pre ESO lore, necromancy was practiced by the upper classes, but primarily as a means of extending their own lives "even further" (in old lore altmer lived longer than other elves). This was basically an open secret.

If I were to speculate I'd say the Altmer ban using necromancy on other mer, but would be fine with raising dead men or beasts.

In post ESO lore it's completely illegal in every way no matter what. And yet, strangely, there's an Altmer ghost in Firsthold being forced to trade with the player, and that's...okay I guess?

In terms of daedric magic, the book liminal bridges claims that traffick with daedra is a basic component of conjuration. Not necessarily worship, but you need to deal with the devil per se in order to summon daedra.

Altmer have always had a bonus to conjuration in the mainline games, so it's safe to assume the old lore Altmer were fine with this. The book liminal bridges also references Altmer books about conjuration and dealing with daedra. I always assumed they saw magic in a pragmatic, almost scientific way. I never saw them as superstitious or ultra religious. In fact, (admittedly biased) dialogue from Morrowind claimed the Altmer were barely religious at all in tbe 3rd era.

In post ESO lore, any daedric summoning results in a death sentence. This is displayed in an Auridon quest where an npc claims that summoning any daedra, even an atronach, is a death sentence. Made it pretty awkward to play that quest on an Altmer sorcerer.

So yeah in short: it depends on the game. There's not a lot of internal consistency with Altmer lore. I'll leave you to decide which version of the Altmer is more intetesting.

Bear in mind 'pre ESO' lore is several hundred years in the future (Arena is set about 700 years after ESO, and the other games are later than that). Whilst Tamriel shows incredibly little development over time, with almost exactly the same nations/provinces, races etc. in Skyrim over 1000 years after ESO, and even a similar level of technology, some things can and do change over time.

For example in Morrowind (the game) Necromancy is not entirely illegal. The dunmer are very strict about it because of their traditions around ancestor worship and the necessity of maintaining the Ghost Fence but as long as you're not using dunmer corpses or souls they don't seem to mind much and if I remember correctly there's an orc necromancer in the Mages Guild. Then in Oblivion we're told that necromancy has been outlawed across the Empire, including in Morrowind and this has angered some of the dunmer because they think it interferes with their traditional practices. (They always insist their ancestor worship, including summoning the ghosts of their ancestors and building ghost fences, are not necromancy and are entirely seperate forms of magic, but to outsiders the difference is minimal.)

So it wouldn't surprise me if Summerset society and their attitude to necromancy also changed over time.

psychotrip

Danikat wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Like everything else regarding the Altmer, the answer is confusing, contradictory, and depends on whether you're looking at pre or post ESO lore.

In pre ESO lore, necromancy was practiced by the upper classes, but primarily as a means of extending their own lives "even further" (in old lore altmer lived longer than other elves). This was basically an open secret.

If I were to speculate I'd say the Altmer ban using necromancy on other mer, but would be fine with raising dead men or beasts.

In post ESO lore it's completely illegal in every way no matter what. And yet, strangely, there's an Altmer ghost in Firsthold being forced to trade with the player, and that's...okay I guess?

In terms of daedric magic, the book liminal bridges claims that traffick with daedra is a basic component of conjuration. Not necessarily worship, but you need to deal with the devil per se in order to summon daedra.

Altmer have always had a bonus to conjuration in the mainline games, so it's safe to assume the old lore Altmer were fine with this. The book liminal bridges also references Altmer books about conjuration and dealing with daedra. I always assumed they saw magic in a pragmatic, almost scientific way. I never saw them as superstitious or ultra religious. In fact, (admittedly biased) dialogue from Morrowind claimed the Altmer were barely religious at all in tbe 3rd era.

In post ESO lore, any daedric summoning results in a death sentence. This is displayed in an Auridon quest where an npc claims that summoning any daedra, even an atronach, is a death sentence. Made it pretty awkward to play that quest on an Altmer sorcerer.

So yeah in short: it depends on the game. There's not a lot of internal consistency with Altmer lore. I'll leave you to decide which version of the Altmer is more intetesting.

Bear in mind 'pre ESO' lore is several hundred years in the future (Arena is set about 700 years after ESO, and the other games are later than that). Whilst Tamriel shows incredibly little development over time, with almost exactly the same nations/provinces, races etc. in Skyrim over 1000 years after ESO, and even a similar level of technology, some things can and do change over time.

For example in Morrowind (the game) Necromancy is not entirely illegal. The dunmer are very strict about it because of their traditions around ancestor worship and the necessity of maintaining the Ghost Fence but as long as you're not using dunmer corpses or souls they don't seem to mind much and if I remember correctly there's an orc necromancer in the Mages Guild. Then in Oblivion we're told that necromancy has been outlawed across the Empire, including in Morrowind and this has angered some of the dunmer because they think it interferes with their traditional practices. (They always insist their ancestor worship, including summoning the ghosts of their ancestors and building ghost fences, are not necromancy and are entirely seperate forms of magic, but to outsiders the difference is minimal.)

So it wouldn't surprise me if Summerset society and their attitude to necromancy also changed over time.

We can explain it as a time difference, but I think it's more of a retcon as the series has changed. ESO likes to selectively use the second era to excuse a lot of perceived inconsistencies, but at the same time many aspects of culture, environment, and "technology" are strangely reminiscent of the third era. Cyrodiil being the most obvious example. Yes they explained it away, but again I think this is just putting a bandaid on a retcon.

But even so, time differences dont explain a lot of the things I mentioned above like the ghost in Firsthold for example, or the assumed difference in Altmer lifespans. Or the fact that Liminal Bridges (the book that references Altmer using conjuration and trafficking with daedra) APPEARS IN ESO. We also need to keep in mind that the Altmer change very slowly if at all, and that a couple hundred years isn't a long time for them. It's just retcons, dude. Zenimax wanted to portray the Altmer in a more traditional, safer way than what was originally intended. I've accepted it for what it is.

As for the Mages Guild: it's a similar situation though not quite a retcon. Imperials pre-Oblivion were portrayed as being secular and progressive almost to a fault. Necromancy was explicitly legal and more or less accepted, as was daedra worship.

Bethesda wanted to make the Imperials more traditional for Oblivion so they nixed most of this. In particular, they made the new archmage ban necromancy altogether (even though you can summon undead in front of them with no penalty). Again, this series isnt known for its internal consistency. It changes all the time to suit what the developers think is best.

So back on topic: in ESO the Altmer are explicitly against most forms of conjuration including necromancy and daedra summoning, except when they're not.

Ratzkifal

Because of the recent happenings with the planemeld and Mannimarco, Necromancy is illegal everywhere (except for the Empire), however there are exceptions. Seeing how the NPCs of the other alliances we fight often have Necromancers among them regardless of what alliance you are, performing Necromancy on enemies seems to be allowed (possibly Necromancers get the option to enlist in the military instead of facing the death penalty). Also, forms like calling your ancestors in Morrowind or trying to extend your own life span (Summerset, but only for well-situated nobles under strict regulations and possibly supervision) are still allowed it seems.