LEGEND EU/PC -- Announcing 4/27/2019 Wrathstone dueling tournament

KenaPKK

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dA29zP8P_g&feature=youtu.be

The time has come for the intercontinental organization Legend to unveil its first EU tourney for Wrathstone patch, bringing the ESO community together across both Megaservers!

Organized by Sniker and Kena, and hosted by Sniker

This time, participants will fight for a whopping 10.000.000 gold distributed between the top 12 contestants!
Sponsored by @ClowMaister, @Elly, and @Krazzt!
1st place - 5 million + Champion guild rank + end all, be all bragging rights on the EU server
2nd place - 1,5 million
3rd place - 1 million
4th place - 500k
5th place - 400k
6th place - 400k
7th place - 300k
8th place - 300k
9th place - 150k
10th place - 150k
11th place - 150k
12th place - 150k

Subscribe to Clowmaister!

Date & Time:
27.04.2019
14:00 CET Berlin Time
Location: TBA
Quarterfinals to finals will be located in @Krazzt's brand new Dueling Arena!

The Tournament will be judged by:
@JaybeMawfaka - @LegendaryRage aka. Krazzt
@wamasutaxidermist aka. Lyser
AND
@Derra

Participation is limited to guild members, and signups are required.
Join guild by messaging or mailing @TheRealSniker in game, or joining our official Discord.
Sign up for the tourney in our official Discord.
https://discord.gg/cH468yb

- No Siphoner CP ~ not even 1 point. Bring a debuff tracker to watch for this
- Level 50 characters ONLY
- 31k health cap. 31,001 fully buffed will be disqualified. Yes, this includes Warden Minor Toughness!
- No changing gear between fights
- No toxicity. If you get toxic about something, we will all point and laugh. And then disqualify you

- No immovability, lingering health, or Major Vitality potions
- No immov or cost increasing poisons
- No gear sets which apply defiles to enemies
- No Meridia's Blessed, Shieldbreaker , Troll King, Pirate Skeleton, Earthgore, Zaan, Sload's, Malubeth, Knightslayer, Torugs Pact, Steadfast Hero, or Robes of the Hist. Queue "no fun allowed, everything is banned" comments
- No Oblivion Damage Glyphs

- No Meditate or Reflective Scales
- No targetable pets. RIP Atronach and Engine Guardian
- Harness Magicka is banned. Dampen morph is permitted
- Werewolf ultimate is banned

Rules were made by Nightblade mains btw

The event will be Co-Broadcasted by:

Fengrush


AND Alcast

Additionally, the Tourney will be advertised and streamed by:

Diplonicus the Brow God


Lana Lane


Bislobo


Faso

AND BetaPsycho will be streaming in Russian



Video Montages of the Tourney will be posted on:
ClowMaister - Youtube
Sniker - Youtube


Special Thanks go to:
Puckers - for helping create graphics!
Maverick_Pronion - for helping advertise the event!
Elly
Krazzt
Malcolm
Subversus
Lyser
Derra
Rex
Kiso
Floridori
The entire Legend leadership team, all of our friends in the community, and everybody else who has helped out creating or advertising this Tourney! See you all there!

wishlist14

What happens when Eso goes Hollywood

TheRealSniker

wishlist14 wrote: »

What happens when Eso goes Hollywood

What happens when eso goes Sniker

Knootewoot

No wings? But.. but.. class identifying skills RIP DK etc.

SaintSubwayy

luckly I dont play such tournaments...but the restrictions sound insane at this point.

if you dont allow Scales, then you can also not alow cloak...its as iconic to NB as scales are for DK.

but jeah...jus tmy oppinion, but hose rules dont sound really fair to me, but as I said...i dont duel so have fun and may the "best" player win

KenaPKK

Knootewoot wrote: »

No wings? But.. but.. class identifying skills RIP DK etc.

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

luckly I dont play such tournaments...but the restrictions sound insane at this point.

if you dont allow Scales, then you can also not alow cloak...its as iconic to NB as scales are for DK.

but jeah...jus tmy oppinion, but hose rules dont sound really fair to me, but as I said...i dont duel so have fun and may the "best" player win

Arguing on the basis of class flavor and identity is more of an appeal to emotion than empirical balance. Magicka and stamina DKs are both top dueling classes, performing plenty well into ranged matchups without wings at all. Adding a reflect makes the matchups quite one-sided.

Also, people like to complain about the existence of dueling rules in general. However, if you look at recent tournaments under ours and other organizations, you'll notice that Legend rules have consistently shown themselves to be the most balanced out of all existing dueling organizations, *and* our rules list is among the shortest. Our rules have been developed over years of events, and we are constantly testing matchups and deliberating rules in order to maintain the highest degree of balance and counterplay with the shortest list possible.

I do hope you'll come out, watch the event, and judge for yourself after that!


EDIT: Lastly, I will add that if the restrictions do sound insane, then let that reflect on the amount of mechanics in the game which are insane in 1v1s. The things on our rule list simply must be banned out in order to avoid op, one-sided fights or stalemates, unfortunately.

Alucardo

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

if you dont allow Scales, then you can also not alow cloak...its as iconic to NB as scales are for DK.

Well they didn't mention no detect pots

Thanatos_inside

Awesome rules really. No cancer at all ty. Hope someday it will be removed from the game.

Anhedonie

lol

SaintSubwayy

KenaPKK wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

No wings? But.. but.. class identifying skills RIP DK etc.

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

luckly I dont play such tournaments...but the restrictions sound insane at this point.

if you dont allow Scales, then you can also not alow cloak...its as iconic to NB as scales are for DK.

but jeah...jus tmy oppinion, but hose rules dont sound really fair to me, but as I said...i dont duel so have fun and may the "best" player win

Arguing on the basis of class flavor and identity is more of an appeal to emotion than empirical balance. Magicka and stamina DKs are both top dueling classes, performing plenty well into ranged matchups without wings at all. Adding a reflect makes the matchups quite one-sided.

Also, people like to complain about the existence of dueling rules in general. However, if you look at recent tournaments under ours and other organizations, you'll notice that Legend rules have consistently shown themselves to be the most balanced out of all existing dueling organizations, *and* our rules list is among the shortest. Our rules have been developed over years of events, and we are constantly testing matchups and deliberating rules in order to maintain the highest degree of balance and counterplay with the shortest list possible.

I do hope you'll come out, watch the event, and judge for yourself after that!

thx for the insight m8...

well I cannot watch the event live, since I'll be driving to Italy for Holidays on this particular day, but maybe ill watch a review on Twitch or so...I'll see.

I understand tha DK wings are a very hard counter towards ranged projectile based builds, yet Sorcs can still use blink, or NB can use cloak +shade to keep their range, or completly reset a unfavourable fight...

Knootewoot

KenaPKK wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

No wings? But.. but.. class identifying skills RIP DK etc.

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

luckly I dont play such tournaments...but the restrictions sound insane at this point.

if you dont allow Scales, then you can also not alow cloak...its as iconic to NB as scales are for DK.

but jeah...jus tmy oppinion, but hose rules dont sound really fair to me, but as I said...i dont duel so have fun and may the "best" player win

Arguing on the basis of class flavor and identity is more of an appeal to emotion than empirical balance. Magicka and stamina DKs are both top dueling classes, performing plenty well into ranged matchups without wings at all. Adding a reflect makes the matchups quite one-sided.

Also, people like to complain about the existence of dueling rules in general. However, if you look at recent tournaments under ours and other organizations, you'll notice that Legend rules have consistently shown themselves to be the most balanced out of all existing dueling organizations, *and* our rules list is among the shortest. Our rules have been developed over years of events, and we are constantly testing matchups and deliberating rules in order to maintain the highest degree of balance and counterplay with the shortest list possible.

I do hope you'll come out, watch the event, and judge for yourself after that!


EDIT: Lastly, I will add that if the restrictions do sound insane, then let that reflect on the amount of mechanics in the game which are insane in 1v1s. The things on our rule list simply must be banned out in order to avoid op, one-sided fights or stalemates, unfortunately.

I was just joking. I'm a magblade myself. As melee I get wasted so I try ranged and suddenly all I encounter are flappy bird wings.

I am sure going to watch. I might learn something 😁

Edit: feck, I can't watch sadly. 27th April is the day I'm on the plane to Greece 😎

KenaPKK

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

No wings? But.. but.. class identifying skills RIP DK etc.

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

luckly I dont play such tournaments...but the restrictions sound insane at this point.

if you dont allow Scales, then you can also not alow cloak...its as iconic to NB as scales are for DK.

but jeah...jus tmy oppinion, but hose rules dont sound really fair to me, but as I said...i dont duel so have fun and may the "best" player win

Arguing on the basis of class flavor and identity is more of an appeal to emotion than empirical balance. Magicka and stamina DKs are both top dueling classes, performing plenty well into ranged matchups without wings at all. Adding a reflect makes the matchups quite one-sided.

Also, people like to complain about the existence of dueling rules in general. However, if you look at recent tournaments under ours and other organizations, you'll notice that Legend rules have consistently shown themselves to be the most balanced out of all existing dueling organizations, *and* our rules list is among the shortest. Our rules have been developed over years of events, and we are constantly testing matchups and deliberating rules in order to maintain the highest degree of balance and counterplay with the shortest list possible.

I do hope you'll come out, watch the event, and judge for yourself after that!

thx for the insight m8...

well I cannot watch the event live, since I'll be driving to Italy for Holidays on this particular day, but maybe ill watch a review on Twitch or so...I'll see.

I understand tha DK wings are a very hard counter towards ranged projectile based builds, yet Sorcs can still use blink, or NB can use cloak +shade to keep their range, or completly reset a unfavourable fight...

Streak and cloak+shade aren't *that* one-sided in practice. They aren't on the same level as wings, at least. Streak is only a short reposition, becomes costly if overused, and (most importantly) takes up a spot on your bars which could (should) go to something to increase your kill pressure, like mines, Inner Light, or Ele Drain.

Cloak+shade have counterplay in aoes, detect pots, snares, and some active abilities. In general, rollerblade is the only setup with the sustain and other tools (namely roll dodge and snare removal) to really make obnoxious use of these, and rollerblade is super squishy and susceptible to burst.

Knootewoot wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

No wings? But.. but.. class identifying skills RIP DK etc.

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

luckly I dont play such tournaments...but the restrictions sound insane at this point.

if you dont allow Scales, then you can also not alow cloak...its as iconic to NB as scales are for DK.

but jeah...jus tmy oppinion, but hose rules dont sound really fair to me, but as I said...i dont duel so have fun and may the "best" player win

Arguing on the basis of class flavor and identity is more of an appeal to emotion than empirical balance. Magicka and stamina DKs are both top dueling classes, performing plenty well into ranged matchups without wings at all. Adding a reflect makes the matchups quite one-sided.

Also, people like to complain about the existence of dueling rules in general. However, if you look at recent tournaments under ours and other organizations, you'll notice that Legend rules have consistently shown themselves to be the most balanced out of all existing dueling organizations, *and* our rules list is among the shortest. Our rules have been developed over years of events, and we are constantly testing matchups and deliberating rules in order to maintain the highest degree of balance and counterplay with the shortest list possible.

I do hope you'll come out, watch the event, and judge for yourself after that!


EDIT: Lastly, I will add that if the restrictions do sound insane, then let that reflect on the amount of mechanics in the game which are insane in 1v1s. The things on our rule list simply must be banned out in order to avoid op, one-sided fights or stalemates, unfortunately.

I was just joking. I'm a magblade myself. As melee I get wasted so I try ranged and suddenly all I encounter are flappy bird wings.

I am sure going to watch. I might learn something 😁

Edit: feck, I can't watch sadly. 27th April is the day I'm on the plane to Greece 😎

Both of you have safe travels!

TriangularChicken

Will there ever be a no CP dueling tournament? I bet a lot of people would like to see and join that..as you might know, no cp on EU is booming

Anyway, nice publicity from all the streamers, good luck & have fun

Aedaryl

Once again, there is the stupid rule of "targetable pets are banned".

Sorcerer best tool is healing matriach giving competitive pressure and the heal the sorc need.

Atronach is also the best sorc ultimate vs competant players.

I can understand that some people have trouble with targeting but banning pet is not the way to go.

Ban the act of hiding in the pets, don't ban the pets.

This is not hard to not stay inside atro and matriarch.

Rules was made by people hwo refuse to deal with competitive msorc.

Katinas

You know something's in a really bad spot when so many "you cannot use this" rules need to be applied to duelling. Class skills not being allowed take the cake. Sets that many of the "sponsored by" players themselves use not being allowed are just LOLz.

KenaPKK

TriangularChicken wrote: »

Will there ever be a no CP dueling tournament? I bet a lot of people would like to see and join that..as you might know, no cp on EU is booming

Anyway, nice publicity from all the streamers, good luck & have fun

In order to enforce non-CP with confidence, we would have to hold such an event in Cyrodiil. Naturally, this adds many layers of complexity to the logistics to the point where it's simply not worth attempting currently. Sorry.

I know some other groups have held small non-CP tournaments in the last year, and we have held several other sorts of events (GvGs, playermade BGs, and casual duel gatherings) in Cyrodiil, though.

Mayrael

One hand I understand those rules and think these are pretty much fair, but on the other hand our every day PvP experience is totally different, we have to deal with those things on regular basis. It's like comparing street fighting and MMA, yeah your fancy moves end when you get hit with a brick. Nevertheless great idea guys I hope it will be awesome tournament, best wishes!

KenaPKK

Mayrael wrote: »

One hand I understand those rules and think these are pretty much fair, but on the other hand our every day PvP experience is totally different, we have to deal with those things on regular basis. It's like comparing street fighting and MMA, yeah your fancy moves end when you get hit with a brick. Nevertheless great idea guys I hope it will be awesome tournament, best wishes!

Agreed. My tournaments are sport fighting under highly controlled conditions.

The most challenging PvP is open world, and open world solo play is still the PvP I enjoy the most myself and respect the most in others. That said, these events are fun for a lot of people! Personally, I enjoy the community-building and event planning more than actually dueling these days. lol

Alucardo

Katinas wrote: »

You know something's in a really bad spot when so many "you cannot use this" rules need to be applied to duelling. Class skills not being allowed take the cake. Sets that many of the "sponsored by" players themselves use not being allowed are just LOLz.

Well the game was never balanced around 1v1s, so obviously some things need to be cut. I think they are some good cuts tbh. In regular PvP everything is fair game

Gnozo

Magden without execute

But anyway, i like the rules. Only thing i would add is skoria.

Sylosi

KenaPKK wrote: »

Arguing on the basis of class flavor and identity is more of an appeal to emotion than empirical balance.

A 1v1 tourney in a game not designed and balanced around 1v1 is a clown fiesta that is an act of emotion in the first place.

Zer0oo

Why are all so against pets
Let all the pokemaster fight!!!

Not sure if they should not be a rule against being cloaked/stealthed for a limited time or you could make quite a meme out of this tournament by ganking everyone.

KenaPKK

Sylosi wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Arguing on the basis of class flavor and identity is more of an appeal to emotion than empirical balance.

A 1v1 tourney in a game not designed and balanced around 1v1 is a clown fiesta that is an act of emotion in the first place.

We duel and host tournaments in this game because we enjoy pushing our limits individually as well as in group activities, yes. However, just because emotion drives us to duel together does not mean that our rules are created or deliberated based on emotional reactions. Do not conflate the two.

Cars and planes were originally designed for transporting things from point A to point B, yet people race them in circles and jump out of them all the time. People are driven by emotion to race or skydive, but they design race cars, parachutes, and rules governing both activities objectively and carefully, with clear goals in mind and processes for achieving them.

Similarly, we in Legend take a very objective and pragmatic approach in our activities. I've made sure to ground both guilds in this attitude as I've built them.

I understand your perspective, though. It's common because of how a lot of less organized events or those run by more irrational players turn out.

KenaPKK

Zer0oo wrote: »

Why are all so against pets
Let all the pokemaster fight!!!

Not sure if they should not be a rule against being cloaked/stealthed for a limited time or you could make quite a meme out of this tournament by ganking everyone.

Targeting issues and passive damage. Pets intercept damage all the time, even when they stand behind you, your opponent has clear line of sight, or they tab target you, and pets deal high ambient damage even when you're on full defense.

Targetable pets have been a mainstay ban in dueling tournaments *for four years,* and have been buffed *significantly* over the last couple of years. Anyone arguing to allow pets in a dueling tournament has no grasp of dueling balance or fair play, and despite that sounding like an inflammatory claim, it's bluntly the vast majority opinion.

Here's a clip from a friend of mine where he takes 7k dps from an unbuffed sorc's matriarch:

https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/teSWee0ZY43GK4JAXpOydfYPUOavXlgg_NCtQ_xCTQw/https/giant.gfycat.com/SickDelayedGentoopenguin.mp4

EDIT: I'll add that sorc shields were buffed during Murkmire, not nerfed, and that sorc is a top dueling class without pets. They do not need pets. People arguing for pets to be permitted either do not understand them and/or simply enjoy playing with pets -- the latter being totally fair, but not conducive to fun and even fights.

Zer0oo

I understand the target argument but banning all pets seems for me an overkill. Do not get me wrong i do not have anything against banning pets for 1v1 but it limits player builds and just screws some classes not to use necro.


Please do not use the clip since it shows just a high max mag build especial build for boosting pet damage against someone without buffs on and ppl with just use it out of context.


Also pets would offer quite some nice mechanics you could us as advantage as their opponent.

Lord-Otto

The difference between pets now and then is Healing Ward. It doesn't get you out of execute anymore. And Dark Conversion in a duel without LoS is risky. I understand why people generally ban pets and I even somewhat agree. But expelling the sorc's burst heal does influence the balancing.
What do NBs sacrifice? Rules were obviously made by a nightblade. (^_-)
Oh, and this would be a perfect argument for asking the devs to return the instant heal to Healing Ward. Food for thought... (^_-)

Commancho

Great idea, awesome rewards and I wish good luck for all gladiators! ;D

Mayrael

Zer0oo wrote: »

I understand the target argument but banning all pets seems for me an overkill. Do not get me wrong i do not have anything against banning pets for 1v1 but it limits player builds and just screws some classes not to use necro.


Please do not use the clip since it shows just a high max mag build especial build for boosting pet damage against someone without buffs on and ppl with just use it out of context.


Also pets would offer quite some nice mechanics you could us as advantage as their opponent.

How would you like to distinct one pet from another? Which would be allowed and which won't? Recently there is a growth of ZOO sorcs that run with twilight, scamp, use atro ultimate and maw of the infernal. In the end all they do is heavy attacking you combined with curse (increasing pet damage) and shielding, while you try to just land a skill on a sorc through all this moving chaos. Those fights are not fair especially when pets bug very often and can see through invisibility etc. You can't even focus sorc properly... Actually there are ways to handle them but it's frustrating to do (fear the pets, use elemental blockade to root them etc.) as it requires much much more effort and skill than playing as a sorc with all those pets.

Zer0oo

Mayrael wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

I understand the target argument but banning all pets seems for me an overkill. Do not get me wrong i do not have anything against banning pets for 1v1 but it limits player builds and just screws some classes not to use necro.


Please do not use the clip since it shows just a high max mag build especial build for boosting pet damage against someone without buffs on and ppl with just use it out of context.


Also pets would offer quite some nice mechanics you could us as advantage as their opponent.

How would you like to distinct one pet from another? Which would be allowed and which won't? Recently there is a growth of ZOO sorcs that run with twilight, scamp, use atro ultimate and maw of the infernal. In the end all they do is heavy attacking you combined with curse (increasing pet damage) and shielding, while you try to just land a skill on a sorc through all this moving chaos. Those fights are not fair especially when pets bug very often and can see through invisibility etc. You can't even focus sorc properly... Actually there are ways to handle them but it's frustrating to do (fear the pets, use elemental blockade to root them etc.) as it requires much much more effort and skill than playing as a sorc with all those pets.

1 pet per player simple as that. At least that way some funny warden builds are possible.


I actually mean you can eclipse the pet and become unkillable as templer. You can get flame lash up on them. You can get some heave attack on them ...
I personal just find that players just go with pets are overpowered without actually using the advantages they can offer you.

(or maybe i just want to see a sorc win some tournament )

KenaPKK

Zer0oo wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

I understand the target argument but banning all pets seems for me an overkill. Do not get me wrong i do not have anything against banning pets for 1v1 but it limits player builds and just screws some classes not to use necro.


Please do not use the clip since it shows just a high max mag build especial build for boosting pet damage against someone without buffs on and ppl with just use it out of context.


Also pets would offer quite some nice mechanics you could us as advantage as their opponent.

How would you like to distinct one pet from another? Which would be allowed and which won't? Recently there is a growth of ZOO sorcs that run with twilight, scamp, use atro ultimate and maw of the infernal. In the end all they do is heavy attacking you combined with curse (increasing pet damage) and shielding, while you try to just land a skill on a sorc through all this moving chaos. Those fights are not fair especially when pets bug very often and can see through invisibility etc. You can't even focus sorc properly... Actually there are ways to handle them but it's frustrating to do (fear the pets, use elemental blockade to root them etc.) as it requires much much more effort and skill than playing as a sorc with all those pets.

1 pet per player simple as that. At least that way some funny warden builds are possible.


I actually mean you can eclipse the pet and become unkillable as templer. You can get flame lash up on them. You can get some heave attack on them ...
I personal just find that players just go with pets are overpowered without actually using the advantages they can offer you.

(or maybe i just want to see a sorc win some tournament )

Petless sorcs win our tournaments all the time. It's actually the highest competing class this patch and last patch without any pets at all.

Even adding one pet is too much. We've tried it with and without, judged it, and this is the most fair rule setup.

Lord-Otto wrote: »

The difference between pets now and then is Healing Ward. It doesn't get you out of execute anymore. And Dark Conversion in a duel without LoS is risky. I understand why people generally ban pets and I even somewhat agree. But expelling the sorc's burst heal does influence the balancing.
What do NBs sacrifice? Rules were obviously made by a nightblade. (^_-)
Oh, and this would be a perfect argument for asking the devs to return the instant heal to Healing Ward. Food for thought... (^_-)

A fair argument in theory, but that burst heal is not remotely necessary in practice. Hardened Ward alone blocks enough damage to allow Surge to tick your health up a bit or to get a Conversion off. Add Dampen in, and it's even more true. Remember, pressure waxes and wanes in a 1v1. If you survive your opponent's burst combo and shield up, eventually they'll have to back off to reapply buffs or to avoid running out of resources. That is plenty of space to get a Conversion or three off.

Magicka sorcs are one of the top tier dueling classes and actually have the strongest defense of all classes under these rules, barring someone chaining defensive ults like resto ult or Corrosive. These are the results of the last two patches of tournaments.

Zer0oo wrote: »

I understand the target argument but banning all pets seems for me an overkill. Do not get me wrong i do not have anything against banning pets for 1v1 but it limits player builds and just screws some classes not to use necro.


Please do not use the clip since it shows just a high max mag build especial build for boosting pet damage against someone without buffs on and ppl with just use it out of context.


Also pets would offer quite some nice mechanics you could us as advantage as their opponent.

Shadowrend enables Necro, not that using Necro is necessary. Spinner or Bright-Throat perform very well too. The clip is your typical Necro pet sorc build, also unbuffed, hitting another typical sorc build. 5-8k matriarch light attacks are typical in PvP, and these fall just short of 7k.

Pets counting as PvE entities does result in a couple of interesting mechanics, mainly around healing from damage dealt, but none of these interactions are comparable to the power of the pets themselves. Also, not all classes have access to an advantageous mechanic to use against pets.

As I've been saying, pets have shown themselves to be 1) too powerful in 1v1s, and 2) completely unnecessary for sorcs to be a top dueling class right now. This is our opinion as a guild after months and months of testing and constant deliberation on the topic. Pets were strong af in duels years ago and have been buffed heavily over the last two years. We have absolutely no need or desire to unban them for our events, and the guild collectively experiences higher quality events without any pets present. Sorry if you guys disagree, but those are our findings and our decision.

Lord-Otto

Well, thanks for taking the time to clarify. I guess you're right in the belief sorcs don't need 'em. But it sure is a slippery slope dictating playstyles because you have an opinion on their competitiveness. I guess that's why people frown upon duel rulesets. It's quite subjective, in the end.
Anyways, have fun! I'll probably watch it if I'm capable to do so.