Necro should be able to pull players from walls

Bergzorn

I'm to lazy to look it up, but you probably have read about the Necromancer's skill wich gives the major armor buffs for twenty seconds and will pull ranged attackers while active.

This skill should be able to pull players, including siege users, from keep walls. I'm of the opinion, and I know many will disagree, that we need a mechanic like this to make the siege phase of keep battles more exciting.

I would be fine with also DK Chains and Silver Leash pulling enemies from walls, but the Necro skill, wich cannot be aimed by the pulling player, is kind of a middle way.

There should be no pulling into the keep to avoid exploiting. Alternatively, the rules could be changed such that pulling into a keep is not considered exploiting anymore (not sure this is a good idea).

You might guess by now that I'm not a fan of the wallhuging playstyle. I don't want to destroy it completely, but there should be a bit more risk. Similar to how you can get pulled when defending / attacking an open breach or gate.

Please discuss, stay civil, and let me tag the man in charge @ZOS_BrianWheeler.

Bergzorn

To make it clear, what I really want is to motivate players to push out to defend their keeps. Grow [snip] and help your poor fellow player who got pulled into the enemy mob.

[Edit for bait.]

idk

Your opinion does not fit with the intended design Zos has for the game. That skill would be considered a gap closer just like DK chains.

Gap closers are intended to not be able to put someone on top of the wall nor pull someone from it. There have been times Zos has messed things up, yes, they do make mistakes, and gap closers could put the user on the wall or pull players from it, but it was not intended by Zos.

That is why your idea should not be so. It does not matter if you are fine with all gap closers working the way you suggest or not and you really have not provided any justification for your idea other than you want it that way. Basically, I doubt you have convinced Zos.

Bergzorn

idk wrote: »

Your opinion does not fit with the intended design Zos has for the game. That skill would be considered a gap closer just like DK chains.

Gap closers are intended to not be able to put someone on top of the wall nor pull someone from it. There have been times Zos has messed things up, yes, they do make mistakes, and gap closers could put the user on the wall or pull players from it, but it was not intended by Zos.

That is why your idea should not be so. It does not matter if you are fine with all gap closers working the way you suggest or not and you really have not provided any justification for your idea other than you want it that way. Basically, I doubt you have convinced Zos.

I'm interested in a discussion with the players. You stated ZOS' opinion and stance, but what's yours?

Edit:

What about a new siege weapon, let's call it Harpoon? If you get hit with it, there are X seconds for someone to free you via synergy. If nobody does, good travels.

idk

Bergzorn wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Your opinion does not fit with the intended design Zos has for the game. That skill would be considered a gap closer just like DK chains.

Gap closers are intended to not be able to put someone on top of the wall nor pull someone from it. There have been times Zos has messed things up, yes, they do make mistakes, and gap closers could put the user on the wall or pull players from it, but it was not intended by Zos.

That is why your idea should not be so. It does not matter if you are fine with all gap closers working the way you suggest or not and you really have not provided any justification for your idea other than you want it that way. Basically, I doubt you have convinced Zos.

I'm interested in a discussion with the players. You stated ZOS' opinion and stance, but what's yours?

What is funny is you say you want to hear what I have to say yet you really did not say jack beyond you want it that way. Oh, I already said that in what you quoted.

Regardless, here it goes.

I do not think gap closers should be able to reach the top of walls. I have seen it in action and it gives the attacking group an overwhelming advantage that should not be. It makes attempts to defend extremely difficult and attacking the keeps stupidly easy. It was a good day for all in Cyrodiil when Zos fixed this.

So I agree with the design Zos has intended and fortunately, baring Zos screwing it up, the necro skill will not pull enemies off of walls.

Sheuib

Your suggestions make walls pointless. We might as well just have flags in open fields if people can bypass the wall.

idk

Sheuib wrote: »

Your suggestions make walls pointless. We might as well just have flags in open fields if people can bypass the wall.

Pretty much this. But remember, some players feel they need an advantage in order to be able to compete in Cyrodiil and being the idea presented above is that type of advantage.

Bergzorn

idk wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

Your suggestions make walls pointless. We might as well just have flags in open fields if people can bypass the wall.

Pretty much this. But remember, some players feel they need an advantage in order to be able to compete in Cyrodiil and being the idea presented above is that type of advantage.

That did hurt a bit.

LordTareq

I would also like my necromancer to pull people from keep walls. I'd also like it if he could could have a skill that turns any other player into a zombie minion if they proc a cheesy monster set on me. And a passive that reflects snares and CC back to the caster if they cast it on me twice within a minute.

NordSwordnBoard

LOL see Volendrunng - the new Daedric weapon coming to PvP will take down keep walls in seconds. It is designed to be a powerful counter to Emperor.

This is from the Bethesda Days event: 5:42 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfyViQ9Uo_M

TriangularChicken

Bergzorn wrote: »

To make it clear, what I really want is to motivate players to push out to defend their keeps. Grow [snip] and help your poor fellow player who got pulled into the enemy mob.

[Edit for bait.]

I agree, Cyro is too much sieging and zerging nowadays. Why do people like their sieges? - because it's easy, it hits hard in no cp. Why do they zerg? - simply because they are too bad to fight. Both needs to be reduced.

Keep sieges are absolutely stupid, there is no actual fighting involved, it's only clicking the left mouse button. This is why BGs have the potential to be a good place (if they ever fix the queue and give incentives + serious leaderboard), noobs can't hide (behind walls) there.

Rhaegar75

I think Necros and NBs should kill just by clicking '1' twice

idk

Bergzorn wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

Your suggestions make walls pointless. We might as well just have flags in open fields if people can bypass the wall.

Pretty much this. But remember, some players feel they need an advantage in order to be able to compete in Cyrodiil and being the idea presented above is that type of advantage.

That did hurt a bit.

The people who used it when gap closers were broken were intentionally using an exploit and I am pretty sure they were smart enough to realize as much. I remember seeing a thread on the subject and some were actually trying to defend their actions.

We have seen in it in various manners when an exploit is discovered that there are people who will take advantage of it.

Regardless, your idea provides an unfair advantage to which you have not tried to counter. Further, your idea of harpoon is no different.

Bergzorn wrote: »

To make it clear, what I really want is to motivate players to push out to defend their keeps. Grow some balls (figuratively) and help your poor fellow player who got pulled into the enemy mob.

This comment is just bashing and flaming IMO. As someone who often plays the often plays on the ground hunting and taking out gankers when my alliance is attacking and taking out those on siege when my alliance is defending.

I will say that siege warfare at keeps is part of the design of the game. So if siege warfare is to much for you I suggest either BGs or a different game. Calling people out because you do not like it that they play to the design of Cyrodiil says more about you than those on the wall.

FleetwoodSmack

idk wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

Your suggestions make walls pointless. We might as well just have flags in open fields if people can bypass the wall.

Pretty much this. But remember, some players feel they need an advantage in order to be able to compete in Cyrodiil and being the idea presented above is that type of advantage.

^This. I get that people want people to come off the walls (and I see it frequently in PC-NA Vivec), but no. There's too many zerganigans to make something like what the OP is suggesting even remotely balanced. You wanna kill people on the wall? Use siege to bring the wall down.


Or play battlegrounds.

technohic

Im actually all for it. I am also for having DKs be able to leap on the walls and pull from walls and it all to go along with the siege buffs that are coming. I would say even allow gap closers but need to keep it limited enough to where walls matter.

As much as I want siege to be strong to make keep defense and assaults more dynamic; I also would like them to be more hectic with guys getting up there to disrupt siege. Need to fix shadow image then as well to where NBs can do sort of the opposite effect of jumping down from the walls to disrupt and teleport back up.

idk

nvm, I have said my peace and OP has yet to try to counter. Considering the lack of interest in this thread it does not seem to be much support for the idea.

Toc de Malsvi

I would really like to go back to the days when you could hop in and out of keeps. Unfortunately ZOS doesn't want that so

Toc de Malsvi

Sheuib wrote: »

Your suggestions make walls pointless. We might as well just have flags in open fields if people can bypass the wall.

No, not really at all.

This would mean that you would actually need a target near the edge to get up or get them down. It would also mean they would have to be visible(no cloak) and not have immovability active(for pull down case). While it would be possible for someone to troll their own alliance, that would be true for all sides.

If a group is organized it wont matter if they can jump up the wall or not, they will still roll over any keep defense that is not either equally organized or have superior numbers.

As far as NPC placement, that can easily be adjusted or accounted for to prevent jumping into keeps through NPC's.

All that will truly change is the keep fights will be a bit more dynamic than stack on the door and you can have more spread out fights away from the breach.

idk

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

Your suggestions make walls pointless. We might as well just have flags in open fields if people can bypass the wall.

No, not really at all.

This would mean that you would actually need a target near the edge to get up or get them down. It would also mean they would have to be visible(no cloak) and not have immovability active(for pull down case). While it would be possible for someone to troll their own alliance, that would be true for all sides.

If a group is organized it wont matter if they can jump up the wall or not, they will still roll over any keep defense that is not either equally organized or have superior numbers.

As far as NPC placement, that can easily be adjusted or accounted for to prevent jumping into keeps through NPC's.

All that will truly change is the keep fights will be a bit more dynamic than stack on the door and you can have more spread out fights away from the breach.

So, unless we have immovability active full time, or cloaked constantly, walls mean something? You clearly forget we stand near the edge for oils.

Basically, you just said everything that needs to be said to confirm the what you quoted is correct, that walls would be meaningless with the OPs ideal. Good job.

Gilvoth

no one should be able to force others to play the way they want you to.
freedom of how we play or what we do with our character (including ranged players on the walls) is a choice we have, and we are allowed to control our character.
please stop trying to force us to play the way you want us to play and accept we have the right and inteligence to make our own decisions on how we play.

Bergzorn

Gilvoth wrote: »

no one should be able to force others to play the way they want you to.
freedom of how we play or what we do with our character (including ranged players on the walls) is a choice we have, and we are allowed to control our character.
please stop trying to force us to play the way you want us to play and accept we have the right and inteligence to make our own decisions on how we play.

On open field, I get pulled frequently by Chains and Silver Leash, it's already part of the game. I also get gap-closed all the time (I play ranged). I'm ok with it.

I understand why they made the the z-axis restriction to gap closers a few years ago. But maybe it's time to change the rules now.

idk wrote: »

nvm, I have said my peace and OP has yet to try to counter.

Seems to me you're pretty set on this. That's fine with me.

Bergzorn

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

LOL see Volendrunng - the new Daedric weapon coming to PvP will take down keep walls in seconds. It is designed to be a powerful counter to Emperor.

I'm curious how this artifact stuff will turn out on live. It's a lot of power for one person. I'd prefer a solution to more interesting keep battles where the power is distributed between may players, attackers and defenders.

Tommy_The_Gun

Following the same logick, NB should be able to gap-close with ambush to some1 on walls. Also DK should be able to do it with Dragon Leap ulti. Aditionally DK should also be able to pull enemies from walls using Fiery Grip.
Yet somehow it is not posible. I wonder why...

TheBonesXXX

TriangularChicken wrote: »

Bergzorn wrote: »

To make it clear, what I really want is to motivate players to push out to defend their keeps. Grow [snip] and help your poor fellow player who got pulled into the enemy mob.

[Edit for bait.]

I agree, Cyro is too much sieging and zerging nowadays. Why do people like their sieges? - because it's easy, it hits hard in no cp. Why do they zerg? - simply because they are too bad to fight. Both needs to be reduced.

Keep sieges are absolutely stupid, there is no actual fighting involved, it's only clicking the left mouse button. This is why BGs have the potential to be a good place (if they ever fix the queue and give incentives + serious leaderboard), noobs can't hide (behind walls) there.

So are melee brawls are the fight to you?

Siege used to be fast and furious, but they decided that they need to hit like pillows.

Perhaps a 30% buff to siege damage while near a keep?

baronzilch

Bergzorn wrote: »

I'm to lazy to look it up, but you probably have read about the Necromancer's skill wich gives the major armor buffs for twenty seconds and will pull ranged attackers while active.

This skill should be able to pull players, including siege users, from keep walls. I'm of the opinion, and I know many will disagree, that we need a mechanic like this to make the siege phase of keep battles more exciting.

I would be fine with also DK Chains and Silver Leash pulling enemies from walls, but the Necro skill, wich cannot be aimed by the pulling player, is kind of a middle way.

There should be no pulling into the keep to avoid exploiting. Alternatively, the rules could be changed such that pulling into a keep is not considered exploiting anymore (not sure this is a good idea).

You might guess by now that I'm not a fan of the wallhuging playstyle. I don't want to destroy it completely, but there should be a bit more risk. Similar to how you can get pulled when defending / attacking an open breach or gate.

Please discuss, stay civil, and let me tag the man in charge @ZOS_BrianWheeler.

Well no offense, but, putting the buggiest, glitchiest CC on a passive was huge mistake and needs to be done away with, regardless of this idea. It's a FREE perma stun during prime time. At least Grip and Leash cost a GCD and resources and need to be targeted.

Having people pulled off walls would mean you would never be able to defend walls (except with siege from positions out of LoS with the ground) at all. Defenders would be pulled down one by one and mobbed constantly and consistently.

I'm not sure how that is exciting, at all.

(If you are saying you want all battles to be field battles, then why have castles at all? We could just put the flags in a pasture.)

As it is, I really enjoy the non-siege part of the rampart to ground battles from both positions and I would not like to see those disappear. We fight in the fields (also enjoyable) 50% of the time already, and I like the variety of having both.

Waffennacht

Ok, I know OP addressed Cyrodiil and Keeps - which instantly made everyone hate his opinion

BUT

The issue is:. It doesn't pull off of height differences - such as a rock.

In BGs a player can stand on a rock - of about 6 inches higher than a necromancer and completely counter this ability.

Screw keeps etc, a slight mound shouldn't be my hard counter