Let's brainstorm together! How would you overhaul the CP system?

Knowledge

If it were up to you, how would you change the CP system? Would you continue it on its previous course of +30 CP per DLC/Chapter or would you do something to change it?

I personally would make a new system that would be specific to classes and have class-specific abilities in each tree. If you extended enough points into one tree you would open up a new class-specific ability for tanking, DPS, or healer.

The cap would be 300 points in my model. So, for example, say you wanted to put a few points into the tanking tree you would be gaining durability but not far enough to access the tank-specific ability. If you were DPS you might put some in both healer and tank trees but only a little ways down. Your main focus, depending on stam, magicka, or purpose, would be to fill up one of the lines in DPS to acquire said DPS ability at the bottom of that specific tree.

What new and exciting ideas do you have? What would be your model?

Siohwenoeht

First, and I know it wouldn't be popular with some, the gear cap needs to increase if they're going to limit or drastically change the CP structure.

Easy way to prevent re-grind for gear would be to implement an improvement system for gear level separate from tempers etc. This would allow for vertical power progression if gear level is still tied to CP and then open CP up for either class specific trees or more "flavour" type trees.

If they settle on role specific CP trees, then I'd hope they would develop a way to have multiple CP profiles that you can switch between so pve/pvp differences and role swaps are easier/less expensive.

Jameliel

Step 1: Fire whoever is in charge.

Step 2: Hire old school gaming devs.

Step 3: Skill trees similar to TES Morrowind

Tommy_The_Gun

I would redesign it with this in mind:


The Warrior
- The Lord - Health / Stamina hybrid
- The Lady - Pure Health
- The Steed - Health / Magicka hybrid
The Mage
- The Rital - Magicks / Health hybrid
- The Apprentice - Pure Magicka
- The Atronach - Magicka / Stamina hybrid
The Thief
- The Tower - Stamina / Health hybrid
- The Lover - Pure Stamina
- The Shadow - Stamina / Magicka hybrid

The special "Utility passives" (such as the one that make you harvest mats faster but do not provide any buff to you stats) will be moved to a separate bar and will be unlocked automatically if you put enaugh points into coresponding CP "colour".

Commancho

Knowledge wrote: »

The cap would be 300 points in my model.

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

First, and I know it wouldn't be popular with some, the gear cap needs to increase if they're going to limit or drastically change the CP structure.

Make these two changes and after one year you will be making threads like "How to save ESO from dying".

mairwen85

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

gear cap needs to increase if they're going to limit or drastically change the CP structure. Easy way to prevent re-grind for gear would be to implement an improvement system for gear level separate from tempers etc. This would allow for vertical power progression if gear level is still tied to CP

...

open CP up for either class specific trees or more "flavour" type trees.

Bold -- a false economy. There will be no vertical improvement passed CP160 as you imagine it, instead (in implementation) the upper value becomes the new CP160 and everything below it is nerfed to hell. This retroactively weakens players as the rest of the world is scaled up to the new limit.

Italics -- a 'prestige' system? Allow for classes to expand or improve/branch existing skills with new morphs maybe?

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

If they settle on role specific CP trees, then I'd hope they would develop a way to have multiple CP profiles that you can switch between so pve/pvp differences and role swaps are easier/less expensive.

I don't like that idea either, is way too restrictive; yes, it offers specialisation, but it creates more constraints and expectations.

Personally, the CP stars as they are now are too combat focused. I like what they offer and believe they should remain as such -- in addition though:

• there should be some QoL stars too, that effect mercantile, research time reduction, mount training price/time/start level, carry weight, harvest volume, gold matt harvest/refine chance, gear level drop quality chance, gold drop chance, etc, movement speed, jump distance ( )
• existing passive CP stars (the unlockables for x amount spent) should be opened up for investment to add more points into (with lower cap than normal stars)
• CP investment needs a balance system that has negative effects per enhancement so that over investing in one area make you weaker in another

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

Knowledge wrote: »

What new and exciting ideas do you have? What would be your model?

Get back to VR16 and stop there.

The game was designed for level 50 cap. Many feeling entitled, wanted progression (grind) and got Veteran Ranks (16 max), introducing Cadwel's "silver/gold".
Few months later, the same people took the forums demanding more progression (grind) needed, the Champion System was implemented to allow such limitless progression.

A huge powercreep followed since, both on PVE and especially Cyrodiil, made the game been ridiculous easy including a loud minority demanding more power in this forums while at the same time the same people complain everything is too easy. Yet are also the same people who complain about Skyshards grinding.

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

First, and I know it wouldn't be popular with some, the gear cap needs to increase if they're going to limit or drastically change the CP structure.

Hell no.

Commancho

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

What new and exciting ideas do you have? What would be your model?

Get back to VR16 and stop there.

The game was designed for level 50 cap. Many feeling entitled, wanted progression (grind) and got Veteran Ranks (16 max), introducing Cadwel's "silver/gold".
Few months later, the same people took the forums demanding more progression (grind) needed, the Champion System was implemented to allow such limitless progression.

A huge powercreep followed since, both on PVE and especially Cyrodiil, made the game been ridiculous easy including a loud minority demanding more power in this forums while at the same time the same people complain everything is too easy. Yet are also the same people who complain about Skyshards grinding.

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

First, and I know it wouldn't be popular with some, the gear cap needs to increase if they're going to limit or drastically change the CP structure.

Hell no.

What huge power creep do you have in Cyrodiil? Do you have non CP campaign? You do!!! Then go there!!! Oh wait, nobody is playing there?! There is a reason for this!!! How I'm tired of this "power creep blah blah" talking!!!

There are many statistics available about how many DLC veteran dungeons have been accomplished by player base and usually they flow around 5-10%. Take away CP and they will be flowing around 1%, which will make a gap between extremely skilled players and average players even larger as only these first will have access to top gear!!!

Siohwenoeht

So keeping the debate going, what would replace the character progression if it's limited or eliminated in CP?

I see the game, as it exists now, as being built entirely around the vertical progression in CP.

You can see how CP affected the decisions in new gear sets, dungeon and trial design and the myriad of nerfs due to pvp "imbalance". Some say "put in new gear tiers and the game will die" well eliminating vertical progression would not help keep it alive.

New gear is just a suggestion to replace the progression, if there's no progression what keeps a player playing in between content releases? I know I'm not the only one thinking that lol

Digiman

This is going be unpopular but I really hope ZoS ignores this thread, lots of terrible ideas from a vocal minority that would screw the majority, if your worried about the game being much easier with champion points then don't spend them like I do.

Commancho

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

New gear is just a suggestion to replace the progression, if there's no progression what keeps a player playing in between content releases? I know I'm not the only one thinking that lol

Do you have any idea how much costs fully upgraded endgame gear per character? From 1 milion gold to 3 milions gold per character and I'm not even including a secondary gear or specialised for each content setups. Now multiple this by 6 (1 for each classes altough I know many end gamers who run 15 characters). How do you think how some endgamer will feel one da,y when he will login into the game and he will see that everything he has earned through a legit gaming for many years is a garbage which can be only deconstructed? Do you realise, that this kind of people are already full with the grind and they just play to have fun and complete most challanging content with their friends, do a little housing or complete achievements? These people have spent years on getting there by playing legitimatly the game, giving feedback and supporting the game by purcharsing ESO+ and crowns and you want to tell them that they need to start all over again? What makes you thinking that they won't simply move to another games as fresh beginings are always more fun than starting the same thing all over again especialy after such a long time?

Dear NERF THIS NERF THAT CROWD, I wish you good luck with with your excelent ideas. I have seen many greater games being shutted down shortly or later after developers have listened to people like you. To be clear, I'm not against nerfs or buffs for a single overpowered/underpowered items or abilities and polishing the game, but nerfing everything to the ground or turning everything upside down in the game which is 5 years old will be a first nail to the coffin and probably the last one.

Would you like to have more challange? Here it is - ask Zenimax for HARDCORE DIFFICULTY FOR DUNGEONS AND TRIALS. It would be non-CP difficulty with cosmetic rewards such as skins, mounts, mementos, emotes etc.

Siohwenoeht

Commancho wrote: »

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

New gear is just a suggestion to replace the progression, if there's no progression what keeps a player playing in between content releases? I know I'm not the only one thinking that lol

Do you have any idea how much costs fully upgraded endgame gear per character? From 1 milion gold to 3 milions gold per character and I'm not even including a secondary gear or specialised for each content setups. Now multiple this by 6 (1 for each classes altough I know many end gamers who run 15 characters). How do you think how some endgamer will feel one da,y when he will login into the game and he will see that everything he has earned through a legit gaming for many years is a garbage which can be only deconstructed? Do you realise, that this kind of people are already full with the grind and they just play to have fun and complete most challanging content with their friends, do a little housing or complete achievements? These people have spent years on getting there by playing legitimatly the game, giving feedback and supporting the game by purcharsing ESO+ and crowns and you want to tell them that they need to start all over again? What makes you thinking that they won't simply move to another games as fresh beginings are always more fun than starting the same thing all over again especialy after such a long time?

Dear NERF THIS NERF THAT CROWD, I wish you good luck with with your excelent ideas. I have seen many greater games being shutted down shortly or later after developers have listened to people like you. To be clear, I'm not against nerfs or buffs for a single overpowered/underpowered items or abilities and polishing the game, but nerfing everything to the ground or turning everything upside down in the game which is 5 years old will be a first nail to the coffin and probably the last one.

Would you like to have more challange? Here it is - ask Zenimax for HARDCORE DIFFICULTY FOR DUNGEONS AND TRIALS. It would be non-CP difficulty with cosmetic rewards such as skins, mounts, mementos, emotes etc.

I do know the cost, I have 7 toons maxed out 3 of them with all gold gear (minus jewelry) just for *** and grins. I did that without spending hardly any gold... By PLAYING the game.

Now if you didn't read my original post, there are ways to make it so you improve the level of the gear YOU ALREADY HAVE.

Now back to the discussion, CP is likely to change drastically and the OP is trying to come up with ideas because if we leave it up to Zos, we know what will likely happen.

My concern is vertical progression, what would you suggest to keep that?

Jhalin

Cursed user -> cursed thread

It’s the way of things

Digiman

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Now back to the discussion, CP is likely to change drastically and the OP is trying to come up with ideas because if we leave it up to Zos, we know what will likely happen.

My concern is vertical progression, what would you suggest to keep that?

If they keep listening too the five people on forums whining about how "easy" the game is when spending CP points then yeah they will cripple the game.

My suggestion is to ignore these people and this thread be locked. The only things I read about it from developers is that they find that people are not excited when earning their 1100 CP point and want to make it more rewarding.

Girl_Number8

This is a horrible set of ideas, truly.

Commancho

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Now back to the discussion, CP is likely to change drastically and the OP is trying to come up with ideas because if we leave it up to Zos, we know what will likely happen.

My concern is vertical progression, what would you suggest to keep that?

Like I said, there is no need to change drasticaly CP. They can just adjust some passives, but there is no need to remove, completly overhaul or replace the CP tree with something else. There are no CP Battlegrounds, there is no CP campaign in Cyrodiil and there could be no CP difficully mode for dungeons/trials with a nice cosmetics rewards, which are more interesting for end gamers than brainless grind. This solution wouldn't hit the less skillfull/experienced majority of the player base which will never accomplish majority of the veteran content even without changes.

Your proposition is just terrible as it is - getting to 160CP is one of the most annoying things in this game and you want to extend this experience even further. Even if you would scale up gear for 160CP+ players this would make a distance between high lvl players and low lvl players even higher than it is now.

Nobody knows what Zenimax is up to so please don't act like they are going to perform some hardcore changes. I really want to belive that they will perform any changes carefully and without listining to such an awfull ideas.

Siohwenoeht

Digiman wrote: »

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Now back to the discussion, CP is likely to change drastically and the OP is trying to come up with ideas because if we leave it up to Zos, we know what will likely happen.

My concern is vertical progression, what would you suggest to keep that?

If they keep listening too the five people on forums whining about how "easy" the game is when spending CP points then yeah they will cripple the game.

My suggestion is to ignore these people and this thread be locked. The only things I read about it from developers is that they find that people are not excited when earning their 1100 CP point and want to make it more rewarding.

Who is whining about the game being to easy? I'm trying to ensure that we don't lose progression. No progression/hard level cap and it might as well be a single player game.

Who's this vocal minority? We need progression to close the gap between newer players and endgamers without taking away what the endgame community likes, which is more challenging content with each new release.

Post your ideas. Obviously some want CP to remain exactly like it is, but I don't think that's going to happen.

Commancho

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Post your ideas. Obviously some want CP to remain exactly like it is, but I don't think that's going to happen.

I have posted my idea twice, but you haven't refered to it. Hardcore non CP difficulty for dungeons/trials with nice cosmetic rewards - skins, mounts, mementos, tittles etc. PVP is good as it is - because we have CHOICE.

Siohwenoeht

Commancho wrote: »

Nobody knows what Zenimax is up to so please don't act like they are going to perform some hardcore changes. I really want to belive that they will perform any changes carefully and without listining to such an awfull ideas.

Yes... Zos is famous for their "nip and tuck" approach to changes...

Liww

CP are too plentiful, you can cap most perks, from defensive to offensive ones, to the point of diminishing returns trivializing spending more points in said perk.

To cut it short, atm there are barely any tradeoffs while spending your CP, you can get rediculous numbers of damage modifiers whilst being in heavy, this is counterintuitive and homogenizes classes/armor weights(or in the case of armor weights, it trivializes certain types, since you can easily make up the differences with CP.)

jainiadral

Make the grind a little more bearable by lowering the XP required especially at 650+. Increase XP gained after level 50 for kills and quests.

Other than that, cap it where it is, then leave it alone.

InvictusApollo

My rough idea:
I would make CP160 or sth small to be the cap for increasing power. And make additional CP points give quality of life or aesthetic improvements. The more CP you have, the more of these inconsequencial for combat improvements you would get.
For example you could buy additional scamp skin for your Volatile Familiar or get speed increase outside of combat etc.

Tasear

Welcome Back

I suggest something that actually makes you feel exicted to level up.

How about a constellations with branches and passives, skills and such effects you have to purchase.

Alsaroth

Remove it. Tada!

Commancho

Liww wrote: »

CP are too plentiful, you can cap most perks, from defensive to offensive ones, to the point of diminishing returns trivializing spending more points in said perk.

To cut it short, atm there are barely any tradeoffs while spending your CP, you can get rediculous numbers of damage modifiers whilst being in heavy, this is counterintuitive and homogenizes classes/armor weights(or in the case of armor weights, it trivializes certain types, since you can easily make up the differences with CP.)

Nonsense, you can have high burst DPS in heavy armor in no CP PVP as well - Clever Alchemist, 7th Legion...
As for the PVE - I have never seen DD using heavy armor or tank using medium armor so yeah....

ToRelax

I made a post about that at the beginning of this year, these are what I see as the most crucial points from it:

- Divide the system into a combat and non-combat part to allow players to choose non-combat perks without compromising their character's combat ability.

- Make sure combat passives do not force the players to choose a certain playstyle, but rather complement their choice whatever it may be. For example, if you introduce a passive that increases penetration, let it be both physical and spell penetration so that the player can mix the skills and effects they may want to use as well as before unlocking this passive.

- Make players choose between different types of combat related passives, rather then dividing them into a sustain, damage and healing constellation into which everyone can invest the same amount of CP.

There's more I would change, but I feel without these points any effort is somewhat wasted. With combat and non combat related passives competing directly, no one will ever take non combat stuff on a character they optimize for combat activities. And without the other points, individual specialization, which I think the CP system is supposed to create, just isn't a reality.

srfrogg23

I wouldn't change the CP system at all. CP is meant to be a long term rewards system for continued gameplay at max level, not a "rush to the finish line then log in only on raid nights because there's no other reason to play my main" system found in every other MMO.

Dartricz

I would delete cp and make all max gear lvl50. I don't care for cp and never will.

I'd almost prefer to have vet levels back. It was fun having to get back on the grind and level up a bit and farm the new nodes to craft new gear. Now I pretty much all the sets I need so I just PvP and farm gold. I don't need cp because I play non cp PvP

There is one good thing about cp and that's the picking nodes quicker and chance to get more

Commancho

ToRelax wrote: »

- Divide the system into a combat and non-combat part to allow players to choose non-combat perks without compromising their character's combat ability.

Obviously everyone will be choosing non-combat perks on their main/crafter and combat on every other character.

ToRelax wrote: »

- Make sure combat passives do not force the players to choose a certain playstyle, but rather complement their choice whatever it may be. For example, if you introduce a passive that increases penetration, let it be both physical and spell penetration so that the player can mix the skills and effects they may want to use as well as before unlocking this passive.

Yeah, let the players cherry pick most powerfull stamina and magicka morphs at once. We can also delete all other classes and leave only Magstamblade xD

ToRelax wrote: »

- Make players choose between different types of combat related passives, rather then dividing them into a sustain, damage and healing constellation into which everyone can invest the same amount of CP.

Again, let players become invicible by spending all CPs in the defense tree or allow them to one shot eachother by spending all CPs into damage dealing tree. Let's skip skill based part of the game such as rotation and burst
.

ToRelax wrote: »

There's more I would change, but I feel without these points any effort is somewhat wasted. With combat and non combat related passives competing directly, no one will ever take non combat stuff on a character they optimize for combat activities. And without the other points, individual specialization, which I think the CP system is supposed to create, just isn't a reality.

Current CP system is making your character stronger all rounded. It might need some tweaks, but overall it's balanced. It's funny how people don't realise that what makes your character specialised or powerefull is not CP but 3 other things:
1. Gear / Enchants
2. Abilities /Rotation / Weaving
3. Skillpoint Passives

CPs are just a cherry on the top. I would change the UI to something more intuitive, in the small window, with more information how the changes affect our character and then I would add some more interesting CP passives.

Liww

Commancho wrote: »

Nonsense, you can have high burst DPS in heavy armor in no CP PVP as well - Clever Alchemist, 7th Legion...
As for the PVE - I have never seen DD using heavy armor or tank using medium armor so yeah....

Imo theres nothing wrong with CP in pve, it's great actually from an rpg/pve perspective. My post was mainly coming from a pvp perspective.

I wholeheartedly agree that it isn't just CP that makes heavy armor as viable as it is, but since we are discussing CP in here that's what i'm going with.

I do think that dps/tank/spell dmg perks should be tied to their supposed armor weights more. it is as you said, set bonus' are still very strong but a distinction has to be made, or we'll be in this tank meta forever.

ToRelax

Commancho wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

- Divide the system into a combat and non-combat part to allow players to choose non-combat perks without compromising their character's combat ability.

Obviously everyone will be choosing non-combat perks on their main/crafter and combat on every other character.

Thanks for stating the obvious. This is what I want to change.

Commancho wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

- Make sure combat passives do not force the players to choose a certain playstyle, but rather complement their choice whatever it may be. For example, if you introduce a passive that increases penetration, let it be both physical and spell penetration so that the player can mix the skills and effects they may want to use as well as before unlocking this passive.

Yeah, let the players cherry pick most powerfull stamina and magicka morphs at once. We can also delete all other classes and leave only Magstamblade xD

You're not exactly a theorycrafter, are you? This alone wouldn't make hybrids competitive, much less overpowered. It would, however, allow for more freedom among sets and ultimates, and maybe most importantly for the long term health of the game, allow for better differentiation between magicka and stamina abilities than which types of damage they deal.

Commancho wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

- Make players choose between different types of combat related passives, rather then dividing them into a sustain, damage and healing constellation into which everyone can invest the same amount of CP.

Again, let players become invicible by spending all CPs in the defense tree or allow them to one shot eachother by spending all CPs into damage dealing tree. Let's skip skill based part of the game such as rotation and burst

With the current CP cap and scaling, such allocations would be very suboptimal for PvP and not work out the way you are saying. In fact, we would likely see a lot of sustain CP being transferred into both damage and defense passives.
I would still like to see lower scaling and a lower CP cap compared to the max cp level, but for different reasons.

Commancho wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

There's more I would change, but I feel without these points any effort is somewhat wasted. With combat and non combat related passives competing directly, no one will ever take non combat stuff on a character they optimize for combat activities. And without the other points, individual specialization, which I think the CP system is supposed to create, just isn't a reality.

Current CP system is making your character stronger all rounded. It might need some tweaks, but overall it's balanced. It's funny how people don't realise that what makes your character specialised or powerefull is not CP but 3 other things:
1. Gear / Enchants
2. Abilities /Rotation / Weaving
3. Skillpoint Passives

CPs are just a cherry on the top. I would change the UI to something more intuitive, in the small window, with more information how the changes affect our character and then I would add some more interesting CP passives.

Saying it's overall balanced seems like a pretty extraordinary statement. But you'll have to at least state what you mean by that.
As for it not being what makes your character specialized or powerful. Well, we are talking about synergizing force multipliers in the double digits.