With a new class on the horizon, let's check how wardens are doing (spoiler alert: not well)

MLGProPlayer

Leader board representation as of March 29, 2019:

HRC: 7.8% (43/551)
AA: 8.5% (51/597)
SO: 10.1% (63/622)
MoL: 7.8% (41/527)
HoF: 8.5% (32/376)
AS: 6.4% (21/330)
CR: 9.4% (32/342)
DSA: 6.0% (14/233)
BRP: 8.9% (16/180)

Why the low representation?

- Lowest magicka DPS and no group utility
- Substandard tank compared to DK
- Substandard healer compared to templar (and some would even argue sorc)
- Substandard stamina DPS compared to NB (although stamden are fairly competitive)

The only thing keeping them even this high is that minor toughness became a buff exclusive to warden healers, or else they'd drop back to the 2-3% representation they were at before this change.

So @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam and others, please don't forget about wardens. Wrobel completely neglected the class while in charge. Don't do the same.

Alucardo

Warden was obviously created to obliterate zergs in PvP by pressing minimal buttons and nothing more

MLGProPlayer

Alucardo wrote: »

Warden was obviously created to obliterate zergs in PvP by pressing minimal buttons and nothing more

That's literally all they are, a PvP CC-bot. They have no role in PvE.

CP5

Wardens being 2nd to dk's as a tank is actually great considering every other class lacks in that area, and as a warden healer for vet trials myself I barely feel that they are that far behind templars. Stamina wardens are amazing in pvp and pve (so comparing them to the quite insane stam NB is again not as bad as you seem to think it is) and while magden's aren't amazing pve dps they are still able to pull decent numbers, comparing the class to the 'bis' options, or to completion percents (when most people probably have a favorite class already before they came out) I feel just blows any issues they are having out of proportion.

MLGProPlayer

CP5 wrote: »

Wardens being 2nd to dk's as a tank is actually great considering every other class lacks in that area, and as a warden healer for vet trials myself I barely feel that they are that far behind templars. Stamina wardens are amazing in pvp and pve (so comparing them to the quite insane stam NB is again not as bad as you seem to think it is) and while magden's aren't amazing pve dps they are still able to pull decent numbers, comparing the class to the 'bis' options, or to completion percents (when most people probably have a favorite class already before they came out) I feel just blows any issues they are having out of proportion.

The only reason to currently bring any kind of warden into endgame content is for minor toughness (which only supports can apply). That's a problem.

The class lacks a unique characteristic that makes them relevant for endgame content in any role. This has been the case since the class launched. Representation was hovering around 2-3% before the minor toughness change.

Despite people having established mains already, I guarantee necromancer will have much higher representation than warden from day 1 since it's simply a much better designed class overall. Warden needs a ton of work.

AnnoyingWizard

At the very least, mag dps needs some group utility. A synergy with one of their damage abilities would be ideal, maybe adding it to growing swarm or winters revenge.

At most the bear certainly needs it’s damage back to what it had been. Pet AI is currently clunky, attacks tend to miss, bear wanders, etc, so a fix there would be a boon. Maybe switch out the Eternal Guardian’s self-resurrect for something to add to dps or utility. Numerous frost morphs could easily be swapped for dps.

Best fix would be finally making ice dps, either shifting passives and morphs to make it tank or dps optional, or making a new weapon line for the tanking, like the recurrently suggested alteration staff. Magic lacks a weapon that adds crit, since flame and lightning only add a percentage dmg bonus, in addition to burning/concussion. Ice staff could fill that role well.

Nerouyn

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Why the low representation?

Only four magicka damage abilities. Half what other classes have.

Less variety = more boring to play = fewer players.

Worse, many of their abilities are dysfunctional. Budding Seeds it their only healing ability which I consider worth using. The others are on my bar only when leveling them. And personally I don't care for the cliff racer. Spamming an insta isn't my idea of a good time and I don't think many others would feel the same way. That's why in other MMO's such abilities often have an auto attack function. Repeatedly mashing the same isn't fun. And there's already an insta attack like it on the destruction staff - which I also don't use - so it's not even adding choice.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

The only thing keeping them even this high is that minor toughness became a buff exclusive to warden healers, or else they'd drop back to the 2-3% representation they were at before this change.

It may not be a coincidence that the first Indrik mount and pet are warden themed. Or that of the four indriks, two are themed for warden. Sorc, DK and necro get nothing.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

So @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam and others, please don't forget about wardens. Wrobel completely neglected the class while in charge. Don't do the same.

During the PAX Elswyr presentation one of them said that they learned from mistake made with warden in that there's too much micro management of buffs, so necromancers don't have any. Publicly acknowledging the problem is a good sign that they might fix it.

Knowledge

I think they are fun to play and that is the main factor for me when playing a game.

MLGProPlayer

Knowledge wrote: »

I think they are fun to play and that is the main factor for me when playing a game.

That's why I play them too, but it's also why I want them to be much more competitive. I don't want them to be just a "fun" class. I want them to be a class people take seriously in endgame content.

MLGProPlayer

AnnoyingWizard wrote: »

At the very least, mag dps needs some group utility. A synergy with one of their damage abilities would be ideal, maybe adding it to growing swarm or winters revenge.

At most the bear certainly needs it’s damage back to what it had been. Pet AI is currently clunky, attacks tend to miss, bear wanders, etc, so a fix there would be a boon. Maybe switch out the Eternal Guardian’s self-resurrect for something to add to dps or utility. Numerous frost morphs could easily be swapped for dps.

Best fix would be finally making ice dps, either shifting passives and morphs to make it tank or dps optional, or making a new weapon line for the tanking, like the recurrently suggested alteration staff. Magic lacks a weapon that adds crit, since flame and lightning only add a percentage dmg bonus, in addition to burning/concussion. Ice staff could fill that role well.

They could also use an execute.

Bouldercleave

Stamina Warden is like pressing an I win button in 99% of PvE, including soloing non vet 4 man dungeons.

PvP and Trials? No clue.

AnnoyingWizard

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

AnnoyingWizard wrote: »

At the very least, mag dps needs some group utility. A synergy with one of their damage abilities would be ideal, maybe adding it to growing swarm or winters revenge.

At most the bear certainly needs it’s damage back to what it had been. Pet AI is currently clunky, attacks tend to miss, bear wanders, etc, so a fix there would be a boon. Maybe switch out the Eternal Guardian’s self-resurrect for something to add to dps or utility. Numerous frost morphs could easily be swapped for dps.

Best fix would be finally making ice dps, either shifting passives and morphs to make it tank or dps optional, or making a new weapon line for the tanking, like the recurrently suggested alteration staff. Magic lacks a weapon that adds crit, since flame and lightning only add a percentage dmg bonus, in addition to burning/concussion. Ice staff could fill that role well.

They could also use an execute.

I actually like using the execute function on the bear. But I also see how unreliable it is, especially in PvP. I’ve read the suggestions of adding it to Fetcher Infection. Would be an improvement over the costly double cast.

Nerouyn

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Stamina Warden is like pressing an I win button in 99% of PvE, including soloing non vet 4 man dungeons.

I haven't tried him in dungeons but my magicka warden can easily solo public dungeons - including the group event - in crappy light armour, just a few light armour passives and no class ones.

I don't feel that they're weak. Just really limited in options and variety.

MLGProPlayer

Nerouyn wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Stamina Warden is like pressing an I win button in 99% of PvE, including soloing non vet 4 man dungeons.

I haven't tried him in dungeons but my magicka warden can easily solo public dungeons - including the group event - in crappy light armour, just a few light armour passives and no class ones.

I don't feel that they're weak. Just really limited in options and variety.

Every class can solo public dungeons, or even 4-man dungeons, in light armour. That's not even remotely exclusive to wardens, nor is it a measure of endgame viability.

They certainly have it pretty easy with a pet and a good self heal, but any class can easily solo this content.

Bouldercleave

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Nerouyn wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Stamina Warden is like pressing an I win button in 99% of PvE, including soloing non vet 4 man dungeons.

I haven't tried him in dungeons but my magicka warden can easily solo public dungeons - including the group event - in crappy light armour, just a few light armour passives and no class ones.

I don't feel that they're weak. Just really limited in options and variety.

Every class can solo public dungeons, or even 4-man dungeons, in light armour. That's not even remotely exclusive to wardens, nor is it a measure of endgame viability.

They certainly have it pretty easy with a pet and a good self heal, but any class can easily solo this content.

Every class may be ABLE to, but not every player can solo 4 man dungeons. It is easier with a Stamden than any other class that I have tried (and I have tried them all). I was referring to the ease vs other classes, not that it was the only class.

Nerouyn

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Every class can solo public dungeons, or even 4-man dungeons, in light armour. That's not even remotely exclusive to wardens, nor is it a measure of endgame viability.

They certainly have it pretty easy with a pet and a good self heal, but any class can easily solo this content.

Yes I've done it with another class - though that character had way more skill points and all of his passives.

But I didn't just randomly bring this up. I made this point in response to someone - who I quoted - claiming that stam warden is "like pressing an I win button in 99% of PvE".

i.e. same applies to magicka.

max_only

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Stamina Warden is like pressing an I win button in 99% of PvE, including soloing non vet 4 man dungeons.

PvP and Trials? No clue.

Im not sure that’s any measure. I am a potato with no rotation and I have soloed non vet 4 man dungeons on a saptank (years ago), a stamplar, a Bosmer magplar and a Bosmer stamdk (since last patch).

My stamden is getting boring because I only purchased him to be a hunter. Not an ice DK, not a green Templar, a HUNTER.

Nerouyn wrote: »

During the PAX Elswyr presentation one of them said that they learned from mistake made with warden in that there's too much micro management of buffs, so necromancers don't have any. Publicly acknowledging the problem is a good sign that they might fix it.

Yes I saw that too. I hope they don’t just say “what’s done is done” and forget about Wardens. I hope they actually apply what they learned in fixes. And furthermore, I hope the “fix” isn’t to neuter the Guardian even more than they have.

Bouldercleave

max_only wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Stamina Warden is like pressing an I win button in 99% of PvE, including soloing non vet 4 man dungeons.

PvP and Trials? No clue.

Im not sure that’s any measure. I am a potato with no rotation and I have soloed non vet 4 man dungeons on a saptank (years ago), a stamplar, a Bosmer magplar and a Bosmer stamdk (since last patch).

My stamden is getting boring because I only purchased him to be a hunter. Not an ice DK, not a green Templar, a HUNTER.

Nerouyn wrote: »

During the PAX Elswyr presentation one of them said that they learned from mistake made with warden in that there's too much micro management of buffs, so necromancers don't have any. Publicly acknowledging the problem is a good sign that they might fix it.

Yes I saw that too. I hope they don’t just say “what’s done is done” and forget about Wardens. I hope they actually apply what they learned in fixes. And furthermore, I hope the “fix” isn’t to neuter the Guardian even more than they have.

My apologies. I didn't realize my one comment would turn into an e-peen contest of how elite players can solo 99.9 % of the game on any class without gear,SP, CP,etc.

The question was asked and I provided my opinion. I believe the class is in a fine place right now and can do fine in most places and excel in many.

But I'll just STFU and let the 1%ers tell me my class is broken because the leaderboard said so...

AnnoyingWizard

Bouldercleave wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Stamina Warden is like pressing an I win button in 99% of PvE, including soloing non vet 4 man dungeons.

PvP and Trials? No clue.

Im not sure that’s any measure. I am a potato with no rotation and I have soloed non vet 4 man dungeons on a saptank (years ago), a stamplar, a Bosmer magplar and a Bosmer stamdk (since last patch).

My stamden is getting boring because I only purchased him to be a hunter. Not an ice DK, not a green Templar, a HUNTER.

Nerouyn wrote: »

During the PAX Elswyr presentation one of them said that they learned from mistake made with warden in that there's too much micro management of buffs, so necromancers don't have any. Publicly acknowledging the problem is a good sign that they might fix it.

Yes I saw that too. I hope they don’t just say “what’s done is done” and forget about Wardens. I hope they actually apply what they learned in fixes. And furthermore, I hope the “fix” isn’t to neuter the Guardian even more than they have.

My apologies. I didn't realize my one comment would turn into an e-peen contest of how elite players can solo 99.9 % of the game on any class without gear,SP, CP,etc.

The question was asked and I provided my opinion. I believe the class is in a fine place right now and can do fine in most places and excel in many.

But I'll just STFU and let the 1%ers tell me my class is broken because the leaderboard said so...

From all accounts, Stamden does seem to be in a good place. Warden tanks and healers appear to be acceptable, but not optimal. And mag dps is the lowest of the classes.

Nemesis7884

Of course Necromancers are slightly overpowered and will be nerfed later on...thats how you get people to buy the chapters...don't you get it - EVERY game design and gameplay desicion is influenced or even based around monetization - have people still not realised this???

Thats exactly why a lot of us don't believe this "fee to play, only cosmetics, don't buy it if you don't want it" BS for a second.

max_only

Bouldercleave wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Stamina Warden is like pressing an I win button in 99% of PvE, including soloing non vet 4 man dungeons.

PvP and Trials? No clue.

Im not sure that’s any measure. I am a potato with no rotation and I have soloed non vet 4 man dungeons on a saptank (years ago), a stamplar, a Bosmer magplar and a Bosmer stamdk (since last patch).

My stamden is getting boring because I only purchased him to be a hunter. Not an ice DK, not a green Templar, a HUNTER.

Nerouyn wrote: »

During the PAX Elswyr presentation one of them said that they learned from mistake made with warden in that there's too much micro management of buffs, so necromancers don't have any. Publicly acknowledging the problem is a good sign that they might fix it.

Yes I saw that too. I hope they don’t just say “what’s done is done” and forget about Wardens. I hope they actually apply what they learned in fixes. And furthermore, I hope the “fix” isn’t to neuter the Guardian even more than they have.

My apologies. I didn't realize my one comment would turn into an e-peen contest of how elite players can solo 99.9 % of the game on any class without gear,SP, CP,etc.

The question was asked and I provided my opinion. I believe the class is in a fine place right now and can do fine in most places and excel in many.

But I'll just STFU and let the 1%ers tell me my class is broken because the leaderboard said so...

I called myself a potato, and no one would put me in the 1%. I’m certainly not stroking my epeen by saying that every class can solo 4 man content. That’s more a reflection of how predictable the base game dungeons are once you’ve farmed them umpteen times.

Nor did I say Warden was broken. Or underpowered.

Sorry. You misunderstood, I was saying that every class can do that it’s no measure of class effectiveness. I don’t think leaderboard scores are a measure of class effectiveness either.

How many Wardens do people feel like they need in their groups, that my measure. As it is, the answer is 1 or none.

ManwithBeard9

How are high elves doing?

ccfeeling

Warden is the 2nd best dps (stam), tank and healer in PVE.

No good? I dont think so

DK is the best tank in the game , how about the dps and healer role ? Have u play with dk healer recently?

There is no perfect class.

MLGProPlayer

ccfeeling wrote: »

Warden is the 2nd best dps (stam), tank and healer in PVE.

No good? I dont think so

DK is the best tank in the game , how about the dps and healer role ? Have u play with dk healer recently?

There is no perfect class.

DKs are the next most underrepresented class. They need a ton of help too.

AbysmalGhul

Magdens and Stamdens are fine. They can easily pull huge numbers (50+k) with easy to learn rotations. I know a good amount of people who use the class end-game.

MLGProPlayer

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

Magdens and Stamdens are fine. They can easily pull huge numbers (50+k) with easy to learn rotations. I know a good amount of people who use the class end-game.

Stamdens are fine, magdens are not.

And magden rotation is far from easy.

1. You have 3 DoTs with different timers
2. You need to manage the distance from your target to maximise the damage of your spammable
3. Your second spammable has a 2 second delay which forces you to use a dynamic rotation (along with the uneven DoT timers)
4. You need to micromanage your pet in actual content (most people don't realize this as you can ignore it on a target dummy)

Despite all that effort, they still parse ~5k behind NB/Templar/Sorc.

They also don't have any utility beyond major breach application on trash pulls.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Every class may be ABLE to, but not every player can solo 4 man dungeons. It is easier with a Stamden than any other class that I have tried (and I have tried them all). I was referring to the ease vs other classes, not that it was the only class.

Stamina Templar is the class I use for solo dungeon without sweating.
Followed surprisingly by 2H Stamina Sorcerer.

Faulgor

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Wardens being 2nd to dk's as a tank is actually great considering every other class lacks in that area, and as a warden healer for vet trials myself I barely feel that they are that far behind templars. Stamina wardens are amazing in pvp and pve (so comparing them to the quite insane stam NB is again not as bad as you seem to think it is) and while magden's aren't amazing pve dps they are still able to pull decent numbers, comparing the class to the 'bis' options, or to completion percents (when most people probably have a favorite class already before they came out) I feel just blows any issues they are having out of proportion.

The only reason to currently bring any kind of warden into endgame content is for minor toughness (which only supports can apply). That's a problem.

Necromancer doesn't provide any minor buff to the group. Unless they change something, or Necromancers surprisingly outparse every other class, I don't think we will see many Necromancers in trials either.

DisgracefulMind

Faulgor wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Wardens being 2nd to dk's as a tank is actually great considering every other class lacks in that area, and as a warden healer for vet trials myself I barely feel that they are that far behind templars. Stamina wardens are amazing in pvp and pve (so comparing them to the quite insane stam NB is again not as bad as you seem to think it is) and while magden's aren't amazing pve dps they are still able to pull decent numbers, comparing the class to the 'bis' options, or to completion percents (when most people probably have a favorite class already before they came out) I feel just blows any issues they are having out of proportion.

The only reason to currently bring any kind of warden into endgame content is for minor toughness (which only supports can apply). That's a problem.

Necromancer doesn't provide any minor buff to the group. Unless they change something, or Necromancers surprisingly outparse every other class, I don't think we will see many Necromancers in trials either.

UMMMM THEY'RE OFFERING MAJOR VULN - DID PEOPLE MISS THIS?!?! XD

Silver_Strider

Nerouyn wrote: »

I don't feel that they're weak. Just really limited in options and variety.

This^

There's very little wrong with Warden as a class (Magden not withstanding) but it's very limited in terms of combat orientation. The entirety of the Healer Tree is basically limited to Healing Only, offering very little tangible benefits outside to it, same with the Tank line. Yes, there's a few exceptions but on the whole the class is very linear.

AnnoyingWizard

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Nerouyn wrote: »

I don't feel that they're weak. Just really limited in options and variety.

This^

There's very little wrong with Warden as a class (Magden not withstanding) but it's very limited in terms of combat orientation. The entirety of the Healer Tree is basically limited to Healing Only, offering very little tangible benefits outside to it, same with the Tank line. Yes, there's a few exceptions but on the whole the class is very linear.

It’d definitely be nice if they opened up the other two trees to fulfilling other roles. Already mentioned using some of the less popular ice morphs for dps, some of the nature skills/morphs could add to tanking or dps as well. Nature’s Grasp comes to mind especially.