Magicka Nightblade Minor Berserk - The Endgame PvE Perspective

TeIvanni

Currently:
Magicka DPS:
There are three viable Magicka dps for competetive endgame raiding.
Magicka Nightblade, Magicka Sorcerer, Magicka Templar

And yes, for a while there Magicka Nightblade was the only viable option.
However this is no longer the case.
With recent buffs, Magicka Sorcerers and Magicka Templars are doing very similar damage.
Currently they are matching or exceeding Magicka Nightblade dps in many trial situations.

This is already interesting because both Sorcerer and Templars have very very easy rotations.
While Magicka Nightblade has arguably the most difficult rotation in the game.

Sorcerer Rotation:
Double bar Twilight pet, letting it do ~5k dps passively...
And then do
Conduit - Wall of Elements - Barswap - Daedric Prey - Spamables+(Crystal Frags when ready) - repeat.

Templar rotation
Shards - Wall - barswap - Vampire Bane - Spamables - repeat
Even easier at like 40%:
Shards - Wall - Jesus Beam

Nightblade Rotation:
Nightblade has the most difficult rotation of the three.
The entire rotation is built around the dynamic nature of Grim Focus.
It's not as simple as cast 3 dots in the same order, followed by spamables until its time to refresh backbar dots.
You're making sure to fire off a bow every 5 light attacks. Recasting three dots on cooldown. But no specific set order.
Missing 1 light attack changes the entire rotation. Because your bow proc will come up at a different time. Meaning your dots are recast in a different order.

Concerns:
Magicka Nightblade is already in a good spot relation wise with the other top Magicka DPS.
If it's damage output is decreased it is likely to drop behind Magicka Templar/Magicka Sorcerer.
If Nightblade does less damage than other classes and has a more difficult playstyle...
Why would anyone choose to play Nightblade?

Joker99

Matching or exceeding? Sorry what? They do decent dps but no, they will never exceed a nb in the current patch.

ccmedaddy

NBs having a harder rotation than other classes is old news. Now pretty much every mag class has to do some sort of a dynamic rotation to do competitive DPS with the exception of magplar which is admittedly easy mode right now.

Also, this is deja vu. There was a thread a few months ago predicting the end of stamblades in PvE because...wait for it...stamblades would be #1 DPS by a smaller margin than before and "stamblades are so hard to play" or whatever. That was a laughable prediction back then and it never came true.

TeIvanni

The best example I can show of where dps is already very competitive is Asylum.
Healers are not running combat prayer so Sorcs + Templars are at a perceived disadvantage to nightblades.
When in reality the best dps are all getting pretty similar numbers.

Sorc: 52/39k
Templar: 54/42k
Nightblade: 52/42k

At a glance nightblade and templar are basically equal dps.
With sorc trailing behind.

However the quality of runs needs to be kept in mind.
The sorc parse is a friend of mine on PC-NA, who probably doesn't have the same level of buffs/debuffs as an EU-Hodor run.
I think if he was in the same environment he could easily be doing the same damage if not more than Nightblades/Templars.

The templar parse is from a "pug" liko filled for. (Would probably be even higher if he was in a Hodor run)

And the nightblade parse was from a Hodor run (at the time it was a World Record).

MartiniDaniels

You will still need one nightblade for minor savagery.. fight for that spot, though it may be taken by healer

So new optimal trial setup:

DK tank
Warden off-tank
Templar healer
Nightblade healer
One sorc for one passive
7 necromancers

lassitershawn

TeIvanni wrote: »

The best example I can show of where dps is already very competitive is Asylum.
Healers are not running combat prayer so Sorcs + Templars are at a perceived disadvantage to nightblades.
When in reality the best dps are all getting pretty similar numbers.

Sorc: 52/39k
Templar: 54/42k
Nightblade: 52/42k

At a glance nightblade and templar are basically equal dps.
With sorc trailing behind.

However the quality of runs needs to be kept in mind.
The sorc parse is a friend of mine on PC-NA, who probably doesn't have the same level of buffs/debuffs as an EU-Hodor run.
I think if he was in the same environment he could easily be doing the same damage if not more than Nightblades/Templars.

The templar parse is from a "pug" liko filled for. (Would probably be even higher if he was in a Hodor run)

And the nightblade parse was from a Hodor run (at the time it was a World Record).

As a side note, that parse was literally from my first night in vAS on magsorc in months as a test. I've been maining NB in there for months. I was using all arcane jewelry and BSW and *** up CP with way too much pen. The next day I matched that parse with a BT/SS parse where I had much worse slayer, horn, and 12% maim (-.-). I fully expect that in our raids I am capable of doing ~53/40+ on a clean run with an optimal setup and on my magblade I MIGHT be able to eke out a out a TINY bit more single. We are now trying to skip felms so I haven't finished any more parses but in my experience magsorc is as good as my NB right now for less effort. I'm not even running a shield (just aegis and matriarch for defense) and it feels as tanky as blade and I'm dropping 8 atros in runs of that length giving someone else 64s of major berserk. The only weakness is pretty trash execute damage (but very high pre execute damage).

I am also using sorc in CR now and it is very strong there as well. Templar is in a great spot and probably better than NBs for CR. Minor berserk should NOT be removed from NB as has been suggested might/will happen. Sorcs, NBs, and templars are all more or less on-par right now and it is VERY good balance wise right now imo. KEEP this balance. No need to nerf NBs especially considering their more difficult rotation.

EDIT: It is worth noting that the provided NB and templar parses are not from this patch but they are from a MUCH better player than me with presumably better buffs/time. I know hodor people are pulling much more than that on NB now but if I had to guess I would bet they would do more or less the same on sorc. From my OWN experience DPSing magsorc is more or less equal to magblade right now. Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but I fully agree with the sentiment of this post. NBs (mag at least) don't need nerfs right now.

aaylas

loooooooool.

I was starting to gain faith in them after a very thoughtful set of changes to racial passives, but they almost slavishly returned to their old ways when they reached back into their toolbox for another hatchet-job.

Taktak

@TeIvanni Nightblade still stronge in PvE without Minor Berserk........but when we talk about Nightblade in PvP side, it's over performing.

You can read this article to know why nightblade need more nerfs:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/460248/nightblade-still-over-performing/p1

usmcjdking

Stamsorc and Stamplar are the only two classes in dire need of a long, hard staring from ZOS.

Both of these classes suck.

Vandril

TeIvanni wrote: »

If Nightblade does less damage than other classes and has a more difficult playstyle...
Why would anyone choose to play Nightblade?

Because it's fun.

I mean, I genuinely understand your point. It certainly wouldn't feel fair to put in twice the effort to get only most of the payout.

But I also genuinely believe players focus far, far too much on efficacy. The "meta culture" of online games needs to die a painful, fiery death.

MLGProPlayer

TeIvanni wrote: »

If Nightblade does less damage than other classes and has a more difficult playstyle...
Why would anyone choose to play Nightblade?

Welcome to everyday as a magicka warden.

- Second toughest rotation
- By far the lowest DPS
- Zero group utility

ecru

Joker99 wrote: »

Matching or exceeding? Sorry what? They do decent dps but no, they will never exceed a nb in the current patch.

This is not true. Petsorc is out damaging magblade currently in trials.

OgreShlong

Or maybe mag dks could have a little dps increase?

Vildebill

People seem to forget that MagDK has one of the hardest rotation as well with most dots running out at different times, with the seconds worst DPS after mag Warden. If some mag classes need love, it's those two. Get them on par with NB, Sorc and Templar.

SaintSubwayy

Vildebill wrote: »

People seem to forget that MagDK has one of the hardest rotation as well with most dots running out at different times, with the seconds worst DPS after mag Warden. If some mag classes need love, it's those two. Get them on par with NB, Sorc and Templar.

on par is not enough sorry
als long as a stamblade can pull up to 10k more DPS its not worth bringing a magDK into a meelespot.

mag and stamDK need to bring something unique to the fight, a Tank DK cannot bring.

A Change to engulfing (maybe also Nox Breath) would help. let the %firedmg amplifier scale off magicka and SD, so a Tank cannot provide the full power of this debuff.
Switchting Nox breath to also boost poisondmg, or some other change, similar to my proposed engulfing change might help.

Vildebill

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Vildebill wrote: »

People seem to forget that MagDK has one of the hardest rotation as well with most dots running out at different times, with the seconds worst DPS after mag Warden. If some mag classes need love, it's those two. Get them on par with NB, Sorc and Templar.

on par is not enough sorry
als long as a stamblade can pull up to 10k more DPS its not worth bringing a magDK into a meelespot.

mag and stamDK need to bring something unique to the fight, a Tank DK cannot bring.

A Change to engulfing (maybe also Nox Breath) would help. let the %firedmg amplifier scale off magicka and SD, so a Tank cannot provide the full power of this debuff.
Switchting Nox breath to also boost poisondmg, or some other change, similar to my proposed engulfing change might help.

Now you're comparing apples and oranges, you just brought a stamina setup into the discussion, I was talking about magicka.

But to reply to that specific problem, if one single class in stamina outperforms all other classes's magicka and stamina specs, is the solution to come up with unique solutions for all other specs, or just nerf the single one overperforming?

SaintSubwayy

Vildebill wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Vildebill wrote: »

People seem to forget that MagDK has one of the hardest rotation as well with most dots running out at different times, with the seconds worst DPS after mag Warden. If some mag classes need love, it's those two. Get them on par with NB, Sorc and Templar.

on par is not enough sorry
als long as a stamblade can pull up to 10k more DPS its not worth bringing a magDK into a meelespot.

mag and stamDK need to bring something unique to the fight, a Tank DK cannot bring.

A Change to engulfing (maybe also Nox Breath) would help. let the %firedmg amplifier scale off magicka and SD, so a Tank cannot provide the full power of this debuff.
Switchting Nox breath to also boost poisondmg, or some other change, similar to my proposed engulfing change might help.

Now you're comparing apples and oranges, you just brought a stamina setup into the discussion, I was talking about magicka.

But to reply to that specific problem, if one single class in stamina outperforms all other classes's magicka and stamina specs, is the solution to come up with unique solutions for all other specs, or just nerf the single one overperforming?

jeah I did that, but jsut because its a very important fact IMO.

you cant look at half the picture and balance arround this half pic. then you will never achieve any sort of balance.

well its not jsut stamNB up there, also StamDens are able to pull 8k+ mopre DPS than a MagDk. the problem is the free dmg of relequen paired with a very verys strong SKillsteup on those 2 classes.
Giving magDK something like a free empower towards targets effected by ardentflame abilities or so, similar to sloar barrage, would help alot.
But im no dev, nor a Rep...so they should start figuring something out, magDK DD's are a dead class in PVE....opnly a handfull left, which is quite sad for such a Iconig class.

Vildebill

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Vildebill wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Vildebill wrote: »

People seem to forget that MagDK has one of the hardest rotation as well with most dots running out at different times, with the seconds worst DPS after mag Warden. If some mag classes need love, it's those two. Get them on par with NB, Sorc and Templar.

on par is not enough sorry
als long as a stamblade can pull up to 10k more DPS its not worth bringing a magDK into a meelespot.

mag and stamDK need to bring something unique to the fight, a Tank DK cannot bring.

A Change to engulfing (maybe also Nox Breath) would help. let the %firedmg amplifier scale off magicka and SD, so a Tank cannot provide the full power of this debuff.
Switchting Nox breath to also boost poisondmg, or some other change, similar to my proposed engulfing change might help.

Now you're comparing apples and oranges, you just brought a stamina setup into the discussion, I was talking about magicka.

But to reply to that specific problem, if one single class in stamina outperforms all other classes's magicka and stamina specs, is the solution to come up with unique solutions for all other specs, or just nerf the single one overperforming?

jeah I did that, but jsut because its a very important fact IMO.

you cant look at half the picture and balance arround this half pic. then you will never achieve any sort of balance.

well its not jsut stamNB up there, also StamDens are able to pull 8k+ mopre DPS than a MagDk. the problem is the free dmg of relequen paired with a very verys strong SKillsteup on those 2 classes.
Giving magDK something like a free empower towards targets effected by ardentflame abilities or so, similar to sloar barrage, would help alot.
But im no dev, nor a Rep...so they should start figuring something out, magDK DD's are a dead class in PVE....opnly a handfull left, which is quite sad for such a Iconig class.

Totally agree, but getting MagDK up on par with other magicka classes, and getting StamNB down on par with other classes is kinda two different problems and topics

Yeah lets hope some good balance changes are coming with Elsewyr, seems like ZOS are actually working on stuff.

Harrdarrzarr

what does the title of the discussion have to do with the actual discussion in here? almost seems like clickbait:)

WrathOfInnos

I had not heard the possibility of removing Minor Berserk. That would be a shame, since performing well without combat prayer is one of the few things Nightblades have left. If they end up having to wear Slimecraw in vAS it will be RIP Nightblades.

IMO magblades don’t really have much to bring to the table anymore. It used to be my favorite class, but has gotten so watered down over the years. I believe one of the main reasons they became so popular was the utility from their off-healing (funnel health in vAS, refreshing path for vCR portal group, and soul siphon for vCR execute). After funnel and refreshing were removed it was kind of the beginning of the end for the class. They don’t bring any synergies. They don’t bring any group buffs like Minor Sorcery or Prophecy (Minor Savagery is for and from stamblades). They cannot save their allies with a heal (like BoL or Matriarch, because no magblades are slotting Offering). And they are one of the squishiest classes, without reliable access to Major Ward and Resolve (although I will say Mirage is pretty good for area damage). Add to all that the loss of their mobility from Cripple (Major Expedition duration nerf), which was another reason magblades were previously great in vAS and vCR (very mobile trials).

Seems like magblades are really only used for 2 things at this point: Veils and Master Architect (and you have to pick one or the other, so they cannot even provide both of these effectively). I’d like to see them get back some of their unique flavor that has been lost. This could be: highest single target DPS, off-healing, area damage (sap essence was once a good skill), mobility, and/or performance solo (without group buffs like Combat Prayer).

SoLooney

If removing minor berserk from the nightblades kit was to put them even with other classes, it's completely pointless. That means wardens will be the only class with self minor berserk unless the necro has their own source.

Stam wardens can complete with stamblades and magplars and now mag sorcs can compete with magblades

Vildebill wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Vildebill wrote: »

People seem to forget that MagDK has one of the hardest rotation as well with most dots running out at different times, with the seconds worst DPS after mag Warden. If some mag classes need love, it's those two. Get them on par with NB, Sorc and Templar.

on par is not enough sorry
als long as a stamblade can pull up to 10k more DPS its not worth bringing a magDK into a meelespot.

mag and stamDK need to bring something unique to the fight, a Tank DK cannot bring.

A Change to engulfing (maybe also Nox Breath) would help. let the %firedmg amplifier scale off magicka and SD, so a Tank cannot provide the full power of this debuff.
Switchting Nox breath to also boost poisondmg, or some other change, similar to my proposed engulfing change might help.

Now you're comparing apples and oranges, you just brought a stamina setup into the discussion, I was talking about magicka.

But to reply to that specific problem, if one single class in stamina outperforms all other classes's magicka and stamina specs, is the solution to come up with unique solutions for all other specs, or just nerf the single one overperforming?

Mag dks are magicka classes but they minute they play melee, you're taking up a stam warden or stamblade spot and they're parsing significantly lower than them

Not to mention mag dks are parsing lower than mag sorcs, magplars, and magblades. And their utility is already covered by a dk tank

Vildebill

SoLooney wrote: »

If removing minor berserk from the nightblades kit was to put them even with other classes, it's completely pointless. That means wardens will be the only class with self minor berserk unless the necro has their own source.

Stam wardens can complete with stamblades and magplars and now mag sorcs can compete with magblades

Vildebill wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Vildebill wrote: »

People seem to forget that MagDK has one of the hardest rotation as well with most dots running out at different times, with the seconds worst DPS after mag Warden. If some mag classes need love, it's those two. Get them on par with NB, Sorc and Templar.

on par is not enough sorry
als long as a stamblade can pull up to 10k more DPS its not worth bringing a magDK into a meelespot.

mag and stamDK need to bring something unique to the fight, a Tank DK cannot bring.

A Change to engulfing (maybe also Nox Breath) would help. let the %firedmg amplifier scale off magicka and SD, so a Tank cannot provide the full power of this debuff.
Switchting Nox breath to also boost poisondmg, or some other change, similar to my proposed engulfing change might help.

Now you're comparing apples and oranges, you just brought a stamina setup into the discussion, I was talking about magicka.

But to reply to that specific problem, if one single class in stamina outperforms all other classes's magicka and stamina specs, is the solution to come up with unique solutions for all other specs, or just nerf the single one overperforming?

Mag dks are magicka classes but they minute they play melee, you're taking up a stam warden or stamblade spot and they're parsing significantly lower than them

Not to mention mag dks are parsing lower than mag sorcs, magplars, and magblades. And their utility is already covered by a dk tank

You are just repeating my main contribution point in this discussion

Aloha

Jesus beam at 40% just lol!

You do not know properly rotation of all of these 3 classes.

mNB is the funniest class overall because so tricky and the best for vAS HM except if you run mSorc with Matriarch, this is the same case for vCR HM.
(Less interesting for mPlar to cast BoL ?).

mNB with shadow mundus is just love !

I think pets made passively too many damages and are awful to be on double bars.

Yes mNB is harder specially if you do not weaving all of you atacks.

I think mDen is underrated.
mDK just... on melee :'(

Tasear

It resloves so many issues by taking it away. It's not there's actually a lost as long as you bring 2 healers.

John_Falstaff

Tasear wrote: »

It resloves so many issues by taking it away. It's not there's actually a lost as long as you bring 2 healers.

The talk's about magblades. They're much more likely to stand outside Combat Prayer.

ralphylauren

Imo zos needs to take away some of that utility from the necro and place in on some of the struggling classes. The way things are currently nerco is looking very P2W.

Rehdaun

Zos needs to quit ripping the heart out of classes and races and do what they said they would balance. This isn't balance. This is shifting the meta from one class or race to another. You make one weaker only to have another one rise to the top. You did it with Sorcs, you did it with dunmer, and you're doing it with nightblades.

Do what you promised Zos, BALANCE!

Knock knock. Anyone home Zos? Can you hear the player base knocking at your door?
.
.
.
Nope guess not!

Taktak

Rehdaun wrote: »

Zos needs to quit ripping the heart out of classes and races and do what they said they would balance. This isn't balance. This is shifting the meta from one class or race to another. You make one weaker only to have another one rise to the top. You did it with Sorcs, you did it with dunmer, and you're doing it with nightblades.

Do what you promised Zos, BALANCE!

Knock knock. Anyone home Zos? Can you hear the player base knocking at your door?
.
.
.
Nope guess not!

nerf nightblades is the best thing Zos can do to make ESO more balance.

Nightblade class is Over Performing since game launch, and many players was ask Zos to nerf it.

Raammzzaa

Taktak wrote: »

Rehdaun wrote: »

Zos needs to quit ripping the heart out of classes and races and do what they said they would balance. This isn't balance. This is shifting the meta from one class or race to another. You make one weaker only to have another one rise to the top. You did it with Sorcs, you did it with dunmer, and you're doing it with nightblades.

Do what you promised Zos, BALANCE!

Knock knock. Anyone home Zos? Can you hear the player base knocking at your door?
.
.
.
Nope guess not!

nerf nightblades is the best thing Zos can do to make ESO more balance.

Nightblade class is Over Performing since game launch, and many players was ask Zos to nerf it.

Fear not! This summer you’re going to be getting packed up on the regular by Necromancers, rather than nightblades.

I predict cries for nerfs to necromancers will be coming in, and I’m very excited for Elsweyr!

Wolfahm

LMFAO OVER PREFORMING SINCE GAME LAUNCH!

Have you played this game?

Wolfahm

Taktak wrote: »

nerf nightblades is the best thing Zos can do to make ESO more balance.

Nightblade class is Over Performing since game launch, and many players was ask Zos to nerf it.


If you think this statement is true you suffer from some form of mental disability.

NB suffered greatly for most of this games early years with broken passives and skills.
Stam and magblade was out preformed by all other rolls for countless metas and out played by most classes in PVP for many years.