Will damage / tanking / healing be the new norm?

Nerouyn

So I'm disappointed by wardens and presently considering the alternatives. But I see that necromancers follow the same broad design as wardens. One skill line for damage. One for tanking. One for healing. That's not only from the original graphic released in January. This appears to be current.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/465121/necromancer-skill-line-showcase-on-thursday-9-am-edt

Personally I don't tank so those abilities are typically a write off. Unfortunately there's only a single damage weapon in the game and very few non class magicka damage abilities. Every magicka damage ability is precious.

Have there been any hints from devs on whether existing classes might be changed to conform to this format? If the existing classes were to lose half their damage abilities to bring them into line with warden and probably necromancer, that would suck so hard.

Nemesis7884

the new norm? as in since the beginning of mmo's?

Nemesis7884

and why would you think after yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeears of class iteration the devs would suddenly completly overhaul all the classes - besides the fact that they have been adapting the existing classes more to this scheme anyhow?

Siohwenoeht

You can do this already, sort of. There are classes that lend themselves more to certain roles but you could be a dk healer, sorc tank, nb tank or healer, and Templar lends itself to all three pretty well.

Nerouyn

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

the new norm? as in since the beginning of mmo's?

Did you just claim that all classes being a hybrid of tank, damage and healing has been the norm in MMOs since their inception?

Cos that's so patently untrue that I can't imagine what your goal was in trying to claim it.

And quite obviously what I meant was the new norm as in for ESO classes - that all would be tank / damage / heals.

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

and why would you think after yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeears of class iteration the devs would suddenly completly overhaul all the classes - besides the fact that they have been adapting the existing classes more to this scheme anyhow?

Classes have changed since launch. Some significantly. Others barely.

But no they don't conform to this hybrid format. Obviously.

Most have about 8 or 9 magicka damage abilities. Out of 15 total. Except for wardens who have 4. And necromancers we'll know soon.

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

You can do this already, sort of. There are classes that lend themselves more to certain roles but you could be a dk healer, sorc tank, nb tank or healer, and Templar lends itself to all three pretty well.

No that's not what I'm saying.

Actually go and look at their abilities. Look at how few magicka damage class abilities wardens have. Look at how many other classes have. It's double.

Classes having a few defensive abilities is not a problem. Classes sacrificing damage abilities for dedicated tanking abilities which many players have absolutely no use for, is. Especially with only a single magicka damage weapon.

Vandril

Nerouyn wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

the new norm? as in since the beginning of mmo's?

Did you just claim that all classes being a hybrid of tank, damage and healing has been the norm in MMOs since their inception?

It's pretty obvious that's not what he meant, and that he only read and was responding to the title of the thread.

And this, friends, is why you're supposed to read the opening post, too.

Siohwenoeht

I count six warden abilities whose mag morphs do damage.

Impaling shards
Crystallized slab
Dive
Scorch
Swarm
Leeching vines

Now, there's no argument that some of these are lackluster and magden could definitely use a bit of buffing but when you look at the abilities, they are similar enough to other classes.

Point being: I'm not seeing a trend, let alone any indication that zos wants any class to be patterned off any other. At least no dev indication. They've got their hands full with the CP evaluation I'm sure.

Peekachu99

Lots of people are happy to see defined trees. Plus, you pick and choose from the others to supplement your build, since everyone is a hybrid (not resource based) in this game. Gives you a loose trinity, which is ideal for group based and solo heavy content.

zaria

Think new classes will have more of an damage , tanking and healing tree.
It would not work well for an class like sorcerer without rebuilding them.

Mojmir

classless systems is the way to go.

Ahzek

For PvP the amount of different tools your class offers is highly important. The more aspects of your build you can cover with class abilities, the more versatile you become in your choices weapons, sets and other skills. Looking at the warden we see people use very high amounts of different class skills for their PvP builds. They have access to such a wide variety of available effects it hardly even matters what weapons they decide to use.
This is a huge strenght, but i would also argue, that it is quite boring. When everything you need is readily available, there is no need for specialized builds.

VaranisArano

Wardens (possibly Necromancers from the hints of things to come) seem to be built to be Jacks of All Trades, Masters of None.

In contrast, the old classes were definitely built to be Masters of their One Trade, and ZOS has been struggling with that ever since as players want to push the boundaries and be effective at other roles.

For example:
DKs make the best tanks overall, as they were designed to be. DK DDs constantly complain about not being that great compared to other classes, yet ZOS can't buff them without making DK tanks the undisputed best ever.

Nightblade DDs are excellent. Nightblade tanks are in a bad place, and its probably because how do you buff a nightblade tank without making Nightblade DDs even better at what they do well?


Now, the meta doesn't like a "Jack of all Trades" build. The meta only cares about what's the most efficient way to get the job done and honestly, that's why MagWarden struggles to be BIS for roles and why Stam Warden is great in PVP - because tanky + buffs + burst damage is the PVP meta.

But ZOS can't exactly add a new "role" to the trinity. And no one wants a repeat of Morrowind, where Templars were butchered to make the Wardens seem like decent healers. So we wind up in a situation where Jack of all Trades is the best way to fit in new classes, but that's unavoidably unsatisfying for anyone who wants the new class to be meta or BIS at something.

Smasherx74

Every class has been built with the intention of them being viable in every role. Three skill trees that generally focus on a single role, tanking healing or damage. I wouldn't expect anything else for any new classes or class changes. Don't like it go play WoW.

VaranisArano

Smasherx74 wrote: »

Every class has been built with the intention of them being viable in every role. Three skill trees that generally focus on a single role, tanking healing or damage. I wouldn't expect anything else for any new classes or class changes. Don't like it go play WoW.

Mmm, the first four classes may indeed be viable in every role, but I think its stretching to claim they've got a tanking, healing, and damage skill tree. If I look at my MagDK, i've got tanking skills scattered throughout all three lines, and that corresponds with their original design as they were the "tanking class".

Jeremy

Nerouyn wrote: »

So I'm disappointed by wardens and presently considering the alternatives. But I see that necromancers follow the same broad design as wardens. One skill line for damage. One for tanking. One for healing. That's not only from the original graphic released in January. This appears to be current.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/465121/necromancer-skill-line-showcase-on-thursday-9-am-edt

Personally I don't tank so those abilities are typically a write off. Unfortunately there's only a single damage weapon in the game and very few non class magicka damage abilities. Every magicka damage ability is precious.

Have there been any hints from devs on whether existing classes might be changed to conform to this format? If the existing classes were to lose half their damage abilities to bring them into line with warden and probably necromancer, that would suck so hard.

It may not be as obvious in terms of skill lines, but I believe all the other classes are capable of fulfilling any of the three roles as well. So I don't see why a new format needs to be introduced. I believe that's been the goal of the game since the beginning and they have accomplished it, though to varying degrees of success.

ghastley

Organising the skills that way may be a relatively recent change, but I don't see it being a problem. It does mean that you don't have to put points in the lines you're not going to use, whereas the original ones needed to spread them across all three.

Giving a new class three skill lines that all go the same way would make it the new meta, or useless, with no middle ground.

Skill lines of mixed-purpose abilities would just be cloning the original four classes, and add nothing new. It would also make adoption of the new class slower, as you'd have to raise all three again.