Are the demenishing returns to great for critical damage ?

WeylandLabs

I been having a hell of a time trying to thoerycraft and calculate the demenishing returns in PvP - ( Not Pve )

I came across a graph on Reddit showing the reduction. Seems like everyone has been using PvE as a general base. But nobody is really using it in PvP, I understand the modifiers base 1.5 crit can reach 2.44.

Seems underwhelming as a person's regular crit resistance is at 2500 to 3k and with 12k pen in PvP doesn't seems to be as effianct.

I actually have a few questions if anybody knows or can help me understand this.

1) If a players crit resistance is at 3k how does "Crit Penetration" work if i can get my modifier to 1.90 at 12k pen in PvP.

2) Does resistance play a factor in crit resistance also, every one is so tanky and resistances are at a all time high. So it's tough creating any damage and being able to manage resources.

3) And lastly - Are demenishing returns in PvP too weak ?

Espeacially on my DW Bow Stam Sorc Small group - Solo bolo

To shed some light on my current build

5 Tzogvins - daggers
5 TFS
2 Troll King

Or

5 Tzogvins - backbar
Vma maces - front bar
5 TFS - Jewelry and 2 body.
2 Troll king W/ Shadow mundus.

If any one can help or at least point me in the right direction that would be awesome.

As we know the next dlc we will see a lot of changes in cp but nothing has been touched with crit damage modifiers - ever.

WeylandLabs

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Much appreciated thank you - I feel the base mitigations are correct but it's a bit outdated.

I guess this is a bad time to ask right before the changes to cp and balance changes next DLC.

But I feel nobody has still asked to try to increase or balance the crit damage modifiers for PvP. I get PvE is good enough I guess but - Crit builds in PvP are pointless. Unless your depending on a low crit chance high burst build then you get a nice crit burst thats is attractive enough to make you want to play.

Obviously giving no diversity in PvP to even make you want to play a crit build.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

. Much appreciated thank you - I feel the base mitigations are correct but it's a bit outdated.

What is outdated? I am sure @paulsimonps would love to know.

. I guess this is a bad time to ask right before the changes to cp and balance changes next DLC.

You keep saying this, most I have seen is that they are Looking at it. No changes have been made for certain.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Shokasegambit1 wrote: »

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Well I see why you have a job instead of a career, you want the knowledge without the effort.

Put in the work to know and maybe you might find what I was saying truthful. If not don't believe me and let this post die. I already thanked you for answering my question with somebody else's knowledge and effort. But you got me there and that's what matters to you. Just like I said you should watch Bethesda streams. I got you there also cheers 👌

Think about that really quick .... have a great night sir

k

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Most of your answers are in this thread- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-for-murkmire/p1

WeylandLabs

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

. Much appreciated thank you - I feel the base mitigations are correct but it's a bit outdated.

What is outdated? I am sure @paulsimonps would love to know.

My apologize I didn't see that he kept updating it from 2016 until Murkmire. In terms of outdated it's not, but in terms of where the next dlc will take us-per crit damage hopefully they can make some changes.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Shokasegambit1 wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

. Much appreciated thank you - I feel the base mitigations are correct but it's a bit outdated.

What is outdated? I am sure @paulsimonps would love to know.

My apologize I didn't see that he kept updating it from 2016 until Murkmire. In terms of outdated it's not, but in terms of where the next dlc will take us-per crit damage hopefully they can make some changes.

Again, you keep saying things are going to change, what is your source on that?

WeylandLabs

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Shokasegambit1 wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

. Much appreciated thank you - I feel the base mitigations are correct but it's a bit outdated.

What is outdated? I am sure @paulsimonps would love to know.

My apologize I didn't see that he kept updating it from 2016 until Murkmire. In terms of outdated it's not, but in terms of where the next dlc will take us-per crit damage hopefully they can make some changes.

Again, you keep saying things are going to change, what is your source on that?

Presumably in the Elswyer dlc per cp and balance changes.

idk

Shokasegambit1 wrote: »

I guess this is a bad time to ask right before the changes to cp and balance changes next DLC.

I to have to ask what is your source on this as Zos just recently said they are reviewing CP.

Yes, last year they said they were reviewing combat in the game with race passives as part of that. However, it was just a couple months ago Zos said they were going to review CP. Zos is not known for moving fast. It took zos over 2 years to replace vet ranks with CP and multiple quarters from the start of preparing the game for CP before they actually added it to the game.

So please enlighten us if you have an actual source for this.


Edit: ok, just saw post above and it seems you are guessing. I hate to break it to you, but if they do major change in the next chapter that will not be all of it and I would not expect them to come up with a revision for CP a single quarter. That would be a short review.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Shokasegambit1 wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Shokasegambit1 wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

. Much appreciated thank you - I feel the base mitigations are correct but it's a bit outdated.

What is outdated? I am sure @paulsimonps would love to know.

My apologize I didn't see that he kept updating it from 2016 until Murkmire. In terms of outdated it's not, but in terms of where the next dlc will take us-per crit damage hopefully they can make some changes.

Again, you keep saying things are going to change, what is your source on that?

Presumably in the Elswyer dlc per cp and balance changes.

That is not a source, that is a time table. Where did this information come from? I am pretty active on this forum and have seen nothing that say zos will be doing any of the sort.

idk

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Shokasegambit1 wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Shokasegambit1 wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

. Much appreciated thank you - I feel the base mitigations are correct but it's a bit outdated.

What is outdated? I am sure @paulsimonps would love to know.

My apologize I didn't see that he kept updating it from 2016 until Murkmire. In terms of outdated it's not, but in terms of where the next dlc will take us-per crit damage hopefully they can make some changes.

Again, you keep saying things are going to change, what is your source on that?

Presumably in the Elswyer dlc per cp and balance changes.

That is not a source, that is a time table. Where did this information come from? I am pretty active on this forum and have seen nothing that say zos will be doing any of the sort.

They are just making an assumption. Probably a hopeful assumption that does not fit Zos' track record, that they would make all the combat changes and CP changes in one update.

Alucardo

Shokasegambit1 wrote: »

Crit builds in PvP are pointless.

I respectfully disagree. I'm currently playing around with an average damage/pen build, but with high crit and utilising the Gryphon set. Even if someone is in full impen, my crits are so often that the damage feels better than when I was using a regular spriggans build. Not to mention my heals are insane.
I can regularly rely on Onslaught to crit, and because it ignores penetration anyway, a crit is more welcome. I mean, this skill is literally doing 14k+ every time. It's ridiculous.
So yeah, I think crit is a very underrated stat in PvP and it should not be brushed aside.

WeylandLabs

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Zeni said it in one of the Twitch Bethesda streams for Elswyer that CP will be restructured due to balancing issues.

I'm not sure what one exactly but I know they said it, and reason why they stopped increasing CP. So other newer players can catch up and hopefully everybody will be on more of the same level in cp for Elswyer.

My source : Is one of the Bethesda streams on twitch, I'm sorry I don't know what one exactly it is. I do know it's not the most recent though.



@Alucardo

You said your playing around with Gryphons set are you a stam sorc or a nightblade or stamplar -

And yes 2h burst is pretty good for low crit high damage and when I say low crit I mean 25% to 35% it will hit like a truck becuase of the modifiers and the demenishing returns are effective in that sweet spot.

I'm just not sure what class race build you are using, you said damage and pen and Gryphons set - if you were a stam sorc hurricane gives you minor expedition and minor force can easily be attained through trap beast or accelerate.

So your comment is kinda confusing pertaining to crit damage in PvP. Gave me sense of, ya crit damage is over performing let me comment so this gains no traction to be reworked vibe.

Please explain your build class race setup and how you came up with this conclusion. Cause if you were a stam sorc I have no idea why you are wearing Gryphons. And you say your getting insane heals on a 2h and ? Im surely lost becuase I have crit surge up 100% at 55% to 65% crit on a full dot build at 3996 crit surge tool tip 1/2 getting 2500hp crit heals plus Troll King still feels underwhelming. Sounds great but burst still stays at king for the second year in a row. But I don't play against noobs also I usually outnumbered 90% of the time.



But if you can explain, I'd appreciate it thank you. 👍

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Zeni said it in one of the Twitch Bethesda streams for Elswyer that CP will be restructured due to balancing issues.

I'm not sure what one exactly but I know they said it, and reason why they stopped increasing CP. So other newer players can catch up and hopefully everybody will be on more of the same level in cp for Elswyer.

My source : Is one of the Bethesda streams on twitch, I'm sorry I don't know what one exactly it is. I do know it's not the most recent though.

gonna need more then that, you ought to be able to dig through the youtube channel and find the quote.

Alucardo

Shokasegambit1 wrote: »

@Alucardo

You said your playing around with Gryphons set are you a stam sorc or a nightblade or stamplar -

And yes 2h burst is pretty good for low crit high damage and when I say low crit I mean 25% to 35% it will hit like a truck becuase of the modifiers and the demenishing returns are effective in that sweet spot.

I'm just not sure what class race build you are using, you said damage and pen and Gryphons set - if you were a stam sorc hurricane gives you minor expedition and minor force can easily be attained through trap beast or accelerate.

So your comment is kinda confusing pertaining to crit damage in PvP. Gave me sense of, ya crit damage is over performing let me comment so this gains no traction to be reworked vibe.

Please explain your build class race setup and how you came up with this conclusion. Cause if you were a stam sorc I have no idea why you are wearing Gryphons. And you say your getting insane heals on a 2h and ? Im surely lost becuase I have crit surge up 100% at 55% to 65% crit on a full dot build at 3996 crit surge tool tip 1/2 getting 2500hp crit heals plus Troll King still feels underwhelming. Sounds great but burst still stays at king for the second year in a row. But I don't play against noobs also I usually outnumbered 90% of the time.



But if you can explain, I'd appreciate it thank you. 👍

I'm a stamplar and Bosmer. And nooo, certainly not trying to say crit is over-performing at all. Just saying that crit builds CAN be viable in PvP, but you need a proper build and set of abilities to get the most out of it. You can't just slap on leviathan, slimecraw, some other crit set and throw rapid strikes on people expecting to nuke things, because you won't.
My build relies on extremely high burst instead of sustained damage, so having all these crits land at once applies so much pressure it's hard to recover from.
I've tried all kinds of builds, but kitey with high burst and crits has been winning for me so far, and keeping me alive for longer thanks to all those crit HoTs and rally burst heals. I mean, event tanks have trouble staying alive once I drop them with a CC and Onslaught. After a couple of executioner crits and PoTL it's sweet dreams, or they turtle up and run around a tree for the next 10 minutes until I get bored and wonder off.
At the end of the day it all comes down to your play style, your class, and what works well for you. Saying crit isn't viable in PvP just isn't something I can agree with, and that is coming from personal experience.

WeylandLabs

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

I understand you probley don't believe me , it's ok don't take my word for it. I'm not going yo comb through videos to try and find it. You should watch some of the live streams so you can have that info.

@Alucardo Ohh ok that makes sence, I'm on a dead playstyle anyway so for me making this work for my class was my last attempt to make solo DW bow Sorc great again. As far as a crit damage for Stam Sorc PvP solo it's rough and in a hard time. Last build before Necro - have over 8k hrs on Sorc class time to switch it up.



Thank you again for the input greatly appreciated. Both of you @Lightspeedflashb14_ESO and @Alucardo 👍

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

I understand you probley don't believe me , it's ok don't take my word for it. I'm not going yo comb through videos to try and find it. You should watch some of the live streams so you can have that info.

i should eh? maybe i have a full time job and a life outside the game, no time to watch some random streams.

WeylandLabs

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Well I see why you have a job instead of a career, you want the knowledge without the effort.

Put in the work to know and maybe you might find what I was saying truthful. If not don't believe me and let this post die. I already thanked you for answering my question with somebody else's knowledge and effort. But you got me there and that's what matters to you. Just like I said you should watch Bethesda streams. I got you there also cheers 👌

Think about that really quick .... have a great night sir

Aznox

@Alucardo what is your crit damage modifier on that build ?

Alucardo

Aznox wrote: »

@Alucardo what is your crit damage modifier on that build ?

I think it was around 52%. Any lower than that and it's probably not worth it. I have thought about going Thief to really deck it out, but it's critting enough that I don't feel like I really need to go any higher