Random Dungeon skipping

Agenericname

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@zaria , wasn't noticing that, actually, it may be a statistical fluke you're observing - there's probably no hard data on that, and in my own experience, I can't quite say I was getting pledge dungeon as a random more often than any other. Without knowing the details of implementation, it's impossible to say if people's choice of random dungeon is skewed towards those which are more popular / have longer specific dungeon queue spots at the moment.

It doesn't even matter whether random reward is to give company to those gunning for specific dungeons, or just to engage people into exploring more dungeons. Case in point, if someone queued for random, got landed in a dungeon, then it's a poor taste to teleport away because other group members may actually not be running a random. Both parties got what they signed up for - random choice in one case, specific dungeon in another case. If someone doesn't like the conditions or suspects randomness to not be random enough - well, the solution is to close the finder window and return to questing or farming or housing or other less risky activities.

Another option would of course be, simply select the dungeons that they're willing to do an queue that way.

kathandira wrote: »

Doing this in a PuG without notifying the group is scummy.

Doing this in a pre-made can be very useful though.

I'd rather it not change, but the behavior of the offenders change instead.

I feel like there should be a "this is why we can't have nice things" meme here.

John_Falstaff

@Agenericname , didn't I just write, in previous post, that group finder does pair people queueing for specific dungeon and people queueing for random, provided that their random choice coincided with the former person's specific? I think I did, yes.

starkerealm

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

You can initiate a vote kick and see what happens. If the vote doesn't go through, I suppose you can report them. I'm not sure if it's an actionable offense but that's up to ZOS to decide. I definitely wouldn't do the dungeon jump in any sort of a pug group as I'd find it rude to do so, but others aren't overly concerned with that.

It's an exploit, so, yeah, it is actionable.

Says who?

I believe it was Gina during the Undaunted event last year. Though I can't link to the post off hand.

starkerealm

Agenericname wrote: »

Another option would of course be, simply select the dungeons that they're willing to do an queue that way.

The specific dungeon queue pulls players from the random queue.

zaria

Note that under this even so many do randoms that you might well get groups who all queued for random.
And yes they should change it so you would loose the random reward if you switched dungeon.

John_Falstaff

@starkerealm , if you mean the skew of random probability, then no, no way of telling, unless you're partial to the implementation. But even so, it doesn't really matter; those who queue for random, accept the finder's randomness. If they want some other randomness - they're free to close the finder and look elsewhere.

starkerealm

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@starkerealm , if you mean the skew of random probability, then no, no way of telling, unless you're partial to the implementation. But even so, it doesn't really matter; those who queue for random, accept the finder's randomness. If they want some other randomness - they're free to close the finder and look elsewhere.

The problem is when you're trying to farm gear, zone in, and two members of the group immediately jump ship to FG1.

John_Falstaff

@starkerealm , yup, precisely that; I'm basically talking about the same thing. Had this happen too. There's no excuse to penalizing someone who honestly queues for specific dungeon, using the finder the way it's meant to be used.

Agenericname

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Agenericname , didn't I just write, in previous post, that group finder does pair people queueing for specific dungeon and people queueing for random, provided that their random choice coincided with the former person's specific? I think I did, yes.

starkerealm wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Another option would of course be, simply select the dungeons that they're willing to do an queue that way.

The specific dungeon queue pulls players from the random queue.

It does. I probably should have highlighted the paragraph/sentence I was referring to.

If a person does not want to assume the risks of the RDF, simply select the specific dungeons that they're willing to do. Risk averted. Both parties are happy.

I will still get paired. They'll get paired. Nobody is jumping to FG1. We are all happy.

John_Falstaff

@Agenericname , aha - then I misunderstood you indeed.

Well, the big issue is, the party that queues for a random as things stand now, guns for bonus XP reward, and it's only granted for a random dungeon, it's not given if player selects a subset of specific dungeons.

DarkerDreams

It's an exploit plain and simple and ZOS has acknowledge it is one but at the same time said they wouldn't really do anything about people using it when it came up during that horrible fiasco also known as the undaunted event so it's why people continue to use it. Eventually they will probably fix it but whether it's today, tomorrow, or three years from now, who knows

kathandira

Agenericname wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

Doing this in a PuG without notifying the group is scummy.

Doing this in a pre-made can be very useful though.

I'd rather it not change, but the behavior of the offenders change instead.

I feel like there should be a "this is why we can't have nice things" meme here.

LOL Would fit well.

kathandira

Here is a wild idea.

Remove the currently ability to jump to a new dungeon if it is not one that you want.

Implement the option to jump with a cost of 1 Undaunted Key to re-randomize. It should exclude the dungeon you are currently in, and put you in a new random dungeon.

Group leader would be the one who would spend the key, and it would be like a Ready Check. Everyone would be notified of the request, and would have to agree to it.

Nogawd

starkerealm wrote: »

The problem is when you're trying to farm gear, zone in, and two members of the group immediately jump ship to FG1.

If you are farming gear, I assume that you are not sub-50. In most cases normals can be soloed or bring a friend to help farm to help chances for drops. Most random normals you join will have sub-50 players anyway that can't help with drops.

Suddwrath

There are two easy ways this can be fixed:
1) If someone queues for a random dungeon and ports to any other dungeon than the one they were originally assigned then they will not receive the rewards for completing a random dungeon. This would discourage players from even doing it in the first place as it wouldn't give them any benefit to porting to another dungeon.
2) Create a new NPC in the undaunted area which gives out a quest to complete a random dungeon (so it would be similar to the NPCs already there but their quest would be for a random instead of a specific dungeon). If the player queues into a dungeon but then ports to any other dungeon it results in the quest being failed and that player has to queue for another random again. Once they complete the dungeon and return to the quest-giving NPC, at that point they would receive their rewards as usual.

Neither of these would involve "punishing" players after the fact who port to other dungeons after they have queued into a specific dungeon. It would just remove their whole incentive for doing so in the first place.

Edit:
For option #2, instead of an NPC, it could even be something as simple as a billboard in the undaunted area. Since the purpose of the random dungeon finder is basically to place players into another group looking for a specific dungeon, the board could be called something like "Undaunted Contracts". The lore behind it could be that it's a board for adventurers who need just one more person to assist them, so they put their "request/contract" on the board. Which would make it similar to the crafting dailies. Simply pull off the contract and it starts the quest for a random daily. Porting to another dungeon fails the quest since you "broke" your contract with the original group, so you have to revisit the board and accept another contract and then queue again for another random daily.

ArenGesus

I think the problem is two-fold. First, some dungeons take a lot longer than others. Second, there is no incentive for completing a longer dungeon, if the pledge/xp is what you're after. This problem of dungeon jumping is just a symptom. For a lot of people, it simply isn't worthwhile to run a long dungeon if they have a particular incentive they're farming for (crystals, keys, xp).

Things I think would make for a better system:

1. Rewards (transmute crystals, keys, xp) are awarded based on average dungeon completion time ranking. ZOS almost certainly has statistics on completion times. But if not, hell - I'll run them all a hundred times myself just to give them some starting numbers.

What this would mean is that you would get 1 key and 1 crystal and a fairly small amount of xp for completing FG1 - and that would apply whether you jumped there, received it as a rando, or specifically selected that dungeon. SCP maybe gives you 5 keys/crystals (or whatever - insert longest dungeon here, plus appropriately scaled reward). Increase rewards appropriately for vet. Personally, I'm always short on crystals because I like to play around with different builds and experiment with them so would love to see the reward doubled, but that could mean 10 for SCP and maybe others would consider that extreme. On the other hand - you're not very likely to queue in and then see the rest of your group instantly port out if there is such an advantageous incentive...

Completion times and difficulty often go hand in hand, but not always. COAII can take a while, but it's not particularly hard. So this is making a very distinct separation from time to finish and difficulty, even though more often than not they will be hand in hand because the difficulty will drive the average completion due to pug wipes, etc. Nevertheless, you still get a better reward for COAII than you do for FGI.

2. Allow players to queue according to tiers of difficulty. dungeons with a I are tier one. Dungeons with a II are tier 2. "Special" dungeons (Selenes, dire frost, etc) are tier 3. DLC is tier 4. Or whatever - choose a tier system that makes sense. Allow players to queue for one tier or a specific tier and any below. So I could say I only want tier 4 (because of the chance to gain maximum reward) or would accept tier 3 and below (because 3 is the highest difficulty level I'm comfortable with).

Having a real tier system should also encourage ZOS to put realistic experience limits on who can queue for what. Like, even at cp810, I shouldn't really be allowed to queue for BMK if I haven't completed ICP. Make the requirements start with a "level == tier" basic starting point (tier 1 at level 10, tier 4 at cp160, tier 4 vet at cp300 - or whatever), but then order the dungeons so that there is progression from easy to hard. And then apply all of that to the random queue - if I queue random and haven't yet completed WGT, then SCP and BMK should not be give to me as randos.

3. Allow players to queue according to completion time instead. Perhaps difficulty isn't a concern for you, but you have a limited time to get a run in. If you could queue for any dungeon with an average completion of less than 20 minutes and are reasonably confident queue times will be low, then you can bust out a quick dungeon before logging off. If you will be on for hours and want rewards, queue for any dungeon. Etc. This will still apply dungeon ranking and only cough up dungeons you have 'qualified' for by either earning experience or having completed the prerequisite dungeons. Regardless of your choice, it might still take longer/shorter than the average - but your expectations are reasonably well set before even going in.

You should hopefully still see plenty of people queuing for FG1 because they will be short on time. You will see people queuing for dungeons at various levels of difficulty because the completion time will drive the incentive or because they are comfortable with a specific level of difficulty or are actively edging out of their current comfort zone. But by and large, you will see easy dungeons populated largely by newer players and harder dungeons populated by experienced players. And then you can disable dungeon jumping because for the most part, people will be doing the content they've chosen to do and the incentive will be based on those choices. Right now, if you simply disable jumping, you'll just have people deserting as soon as DLC shows up. It still won't be worthwhile to run those if they are just looking for a daily xp boost.

zvavi

@p_tsakirisb16_ESO
Ok mate, I understand your frustration, and I understand the complaint about no communication. But it is on you as much as it is on them, u gotta tell them "I queued for frostvault, if you don't plan on doing it, can you kick me so I can queue again without penalty?"
I mean, usually people do talk it out, I queued a while ago for vet dlc random to practice (checked dlc dungeons and pressed queue) two of the people I got (the dds) were on random vet, I was tired of this dungeon cause I am always getting it in the random vet dlc, but the healer needed it for helm, we talked it out, and just did it. People are usually communicative. You just gotta initiate it.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

zvavi wrote: »

@p_tsakirisb16_ESO
Ok mate, I understand your frustration, and I understand the complaint about no communication. But it is on you as much as it is on them, u gotta tell them "I queued for frostvault, if you don't plan on doing it, can you kick me so I can queue again without penalty?"
I mean, usually people do talk it out, I queued a while ago for vet dlc random to practice (checked dlc dungeons and pressed queue) two of the people I got (the dds) were on random vet, I was tired of this dungeon cause I am always getting it in the random vet dlc, but the healer needed it for helm, we talked it out, and just did it. People are usually communicative. You just gotta initiate it.

I was with my mate, both very good DDs, and queued as DDs for random normal, thats the point. A fake healer and fake tank were the ones who jump ship when saw Frostvault and went to do COH 1 without answering on group chat.

Vapirko

You know, as always, if you don’t like the way randoms behave, you can make our own group. Go into a random expecting random behavior from a random group of people. Be responsible for your own experience whenever possible and you’ll have a much better time.

Monsieur

Surely it’s not that hard for ZOS to implement a workaround that removes the ability to gain the exp bonus if you port out of a dungeon from the random group finder.

Or spaghetti code?

Suddwrath

Monsieur wrote: »

Or spaghetti code?

Oh it's definitely spaghetti. A bug that has been around for 5 years was officially made a feature this year.

r34lian

I don't have any dlc dungeons except for IC and neither do I sub and off all I always que my dps as tank for random normal doing this since 500 cpish now maxed ez fast run by the time lowbies finish talking for quest half of dungeon is cleared

IzzyStardust

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

The levels of annoyance with this ability to jump to different dungeon and screw the team left behind has hit new levels.
Why ZOS doesn't fix it for good? It should give the option at least to the leader to kick everyone from the group, without requiring vote, who is not in the same dungeon but on different one.

Had numerous times given dungeons I haven't done with some of my toons like Frostvault, and half the team without saying anything to anybody, just jump to FG1 or COH1.
And there we sit without been able to kick them out, they "Complete Activity", and quit, and the rest haven't even got the XP needing to restart a new group finder process.

I agree with you that people should not do that unless they have their own premade - but also it is folly to expect a carry in Frostvault or other harder content. Like why you pug that - I have no idea. I would never stay and pug a DLC for a rando normal - but I would just leave the group and take the 15 min penalty; over tanking/healing for 1-2 hours. 'Nevermind! Sorry!' *leaves group*

starkerealm

Nogawd wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

The problem is when you're trying to farm gear, zone in, and two members of the group immediately jump ship to FG1.

If you are farming gear, I assume that you are not sub-50. In most cases normals can be soloed or bring a friend to help farm to help chances for drops. Most random normals you join will have sub-50 players anyway that can't help with drops.

Problem with that is when your two get matched to their two, and you can't kick them. Bonus points if one's a fake Tank/Healer. Now, fortunately this isn't common, and most of the immediate jumpers have gotten kicked, but it's still a BS situation.

As for soloing them, sure, most of them. But it won't be fun. Especially DLC stuff. I can clear normal BRF with a buddy, probably nFalk too, but if I'm there for the gear, not because I want to prove I'm a badass to the entire crowd of no one in that dungeon with me, there's no point.

Monsieur

IzzyStardust wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

The levels of annoyance with this ability to jump to different dungeon and screw the team left behind has hit new levels.
Why ZOS doesn't fix it for good? It should give the option at least to the leader to kick everyone from the group, without requiring vote, who is not in the same dungeon but on different one.

Had numerous times given dungeons I haven't done with some of my toons like Frostvault, and half the team without saying anything to anybody, just jump to FG1 or COH1.
And there we sit without been able to kick them out, they "Complete Activity", and quit, and the rest haven't even got the XP needing to restart a new group finder process.

I agree with you that people should not do that unless they have their own premade - but also it is folly to expect a carry in Frostvault or other harder content. Like why you pug that - I have no idea. I would never stay and pug a DLC for a rando normal - but I would just leave the group and take the 15 min penalty; over tanking/healing for 1-2 hours. 'Nevermind! Sorry!' *leaves group*

Huh? That’s the whole point of the group finder... to find a group to do content.

If ZOS doesn’t make group content through their group finder, pick up group-friendly, that’s on ZOS, not the players, don’t you think?

starkerealm

IzzyStardust wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

The levels of annoyance with this ability to jump to different dungeon and screw the team left behind has hit new levels.
Why ZOS doesn't fix it for good? It should give the option at least to the leader to kick everyone from the group, without requiring vote, who is not in the same dungeon but on different one.

Had numerous times given dungeons I haven't done with some of my toons like Frostvault, and half the team without saying anything to anybody, just jump to FG1 or COH1.
And there we sit without been able to kick them out, they "Complete Activity", and quit, and the rest haven't even got the XP needing to restart a new group finder process.

I agree with you that people should not do that unless they have their own premade - but also it is folly to expect a carry in Frostvault or other harder content. Like why you pug that - I have no idea. I would never stay and pug a DLC for a rando normal - but I would just leave the group and take the 15 min penalty; over tanking/healing for 1-2 hours. 'Nevermind! Sorry!' *leaves group*

So, this would be a bad time to point out my significant other PUGged vet Depths of Malatar for the skin? There are people in the queue who can, actually, clear DLC dungeons without issue. So, it's not like, you're the one sane player among a sea of ducklings. Also, it's a 15 minute penalty, that's plenty of time to figure out if your group is up to the task of Frostvault or not.

david_m_18b16_ESO

Why giving a bonus for complating a random dungeon if you let poeple skipping the random part. Just make it a bonus reward for the first daylie dungeon completed or fix the exploit.