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Improve Khajiit Passives
WrathOfInnos
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I’ve been doing a lot of testing on a Khajiit DPS in Wrathstone. It seems a little underpowered in comparison to other races.
Max resources: All of the main damage dealing races get 2000 Max Magicka or Stamina. Khajiit was instead given Tri-resources. This is interesting idea, even though it results in slightly lower damage. However the resource values given do not seem to be in line with the rest of the game balance. Any other source of tri-resource allows trading 2 Max Mag or 2 Max Stam for 1 Mag + 1 Stam + 1.1 Health (see Triune and Prismatic Defense). By this logic, the equivalent to other races 2000 resource would be for Khajiit to get 1000 Max Magicka + 1000 Max Stamina + 1100 Max Health (up from 825 of each).
Next we can look at their recovery passive of 85/85/100 Mag/Stam/Health. A typical build will get about 65% bonus to their primary recovery and 10% bonus or less to off-stat and health. Using a Magicka build as an example we see the passive gives about 70 Magicka, 45 Stamina, and 55 Health per second. Compare that to the 67 of each resource per second on Imperial (not even including the cost reduction aspect) or the 89 on Argonian. It’s not far off, but is slightly inferior. I would recommend making it 129 Mag/Stamina/Health Recovery. This would result in roughly 106/70/70 Primary/Off/Health per second.
Last but not least, the crit damage bonus. This was one of the most controversial racial changes, and although I’d prefer Crit Chance, I can live with Crit Damage. 10% works out to pretty much the same damage boost other races get from 258 weapon or spell damage (just under 4%), so in this sense it is balanced. However, making use of this passive requires building high Crit Chance so it is more restrictive. On a build with low Crit (around 45%) the Khajiit passive gives closer to 3% damage. I’d like to see this adjusted so it was slightly superior to the 258 Weapon or Spell damage on a high Crit build, and slightly inferior on a low crit build. I think the answer here is 12% crit damage. Considering that Khajiit would still be lacking 1k max resource compared to other damage races, this boost would not make them overpowered. To look at it another way, many races get a 108% of Mundus Stone worth of Weapon or Spell Damage (258/238 for Apprentice or Warrior). I’m suggesting Khajiit receive 92% of a Mundus Stone (12/13 for Shadow), up from their current 77%.
The stealth passive is fine for flavor, but is largely useless for PVE. It can be helpful in PVP or for some thieving or assassination quests. No reason to change this one.
Max resources: All of the main damage dealing races get 2000 Max Magicka or Stamina. Khajiit was instead given Tri-resources. This is interesting idea, even though it results in slightly lower damage. However the resource values given do not seem to be in line with the rest of the game balance. Any other source of tri-resource allows trading 2 Max Mag or 2 Max Stam for 1 Mag + 1 Stam + 1.1 Health (see Triune and Prismatic Defense). By this logic, the equivalent to other races 2000 resource would be for Khajiit to get 1000 Max Magicka + 1000 Max Stamina + 1100 Max Health (up from 825 of each).
Next we can look at their recovery passive of 85/85/100 Mag/Stam/Health. A typical build will get about 65% bonus to their primary recovery and 10% bonus or less to off-stat and health. Using a Magicka build as an example we see the passive gives about 70 Magicka, 45 Stamina, and 55 Health per second. Compare that to the 67 of each resource per second on Imperial (not even including the cost reduction aspect) or the 89 on Argonian. It’s not far off, but is slightly inferior. I would recommend making it 129 Mag/Stamina/Health Recovery. This would result in roughly 106/70/70 Primary/Off/Health per second.
Last but not least, the crit damage bonus. This was one of the most controversial racial changes, and although I’d prefer Crit Chance, I can live with Crit Damage. 10% works out to pretty much the same damage boost other races get from 258 weapon or spell damage (just under 4%), so in this sense it is balanced. However, making use of this passive requires building high Crit Chance so it is more restrictive. On a build with low Crit (around 45%) the Khajiit passive gives closer to 3% damage. I’d like to see this adjusted so it was slightly superior to the 258 Weapon or Spell damage on a high Crit build, and slightly inferior on a low crit build. I think the answer here is 12% crit damage. Considering that Khajiit would still be lacking 1k max resource compared to other damage races, this boost would not make them overpowered. To look at it another way, many races get a 108% of Mundus Stone worth of Weapon or Spell Damage (258/238 for Apprentice or Warrior). I’m suggesting Khajiit receive 92% of a Mundus Stone (12/13 for Shadow), up from their current 77%.
The stealth passive is fine for flavor, but is largely useless for PVE. It can be helpful in PVP or for some thieving or assassination quests. No reason to change this one.
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WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Taken all together, these changes would result in about 1% more burst damage (0.8% from crit passive and 0.2% from max resource increase), along with a few hundred more health and off-stat resource. For sustain it would be an increase of 30-40 primary stat per second, along with ~25 off-stat and ~15 health returned per second.0 -
karthrag_inak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Any boost to primary stat would be welcome. The current setup sucks imo - very little build diversity allowed.PC-NA : 19 Khajiit and 1 Fishy-cat with fluffy delusions. cp3600
GM of Imperial Gold Reserve trading guild (started in 2017) since 2/2022
Come visit Karth's Glitter Box, Khajiit's home. Fully stocked guild hall done in sleek Khajiit stylings, with Grand Master Stations, Transmute, Scribing, Trial Dummies, etc. Also has 2 full bowling alleys, nightclub, and floating maze over Wrothgar.1 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I can totally get behind it. I'd prefer to split the bonus in two parts - crit and crit damage - that way the passive would be crit-agnostic since the dependency of it on base crit will be more uniform and low-crit builds could benefit from it, but if anything, that's one way of making khajiits perform.0 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »I can totally get behind it. I'd prefer to split the bonus in two parts - crit and crit damage - that way the passive would be crit-agnostic since the dependency of it on base crit will be more uniform and low-crit builds could benefit from it, but if anything, that's one way of making khajiits perform.
Yeah true, I could see something like 4% Crit Chance + 6% Crit Damage working. Or maybe 5% and 5%. Either of those would provide a little more synergy with the Templar class (currently the worst combination with Khajiit race).1 -
Silver_Strider✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ZOS doesn't care about balance, which I suppose is a good thing in this case since the suggestion is unbalanced.
I mean, it's not as though Khajiit doesn't already outparse, Nord, Imperial, Bosmer, Redguard and Argonian, giving them more of anything just screws those races even more.Argonian forever1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What OP has to say is all nice and sweet, but it fails to actually provide a comparison that really says something other than one's opinion.
They say they have been doing a lot of testing. That is really easy to say but OP has not provided the slightest bit of information that shows they actually did any testing, let alone worthy, well thought out and planned testing.
So let's see it. Let's see what is actually says and if it is done in a way that provides worthy and meaningful information.
BTW, I am not arguing against, or with, the OP. I know we all have our own thoughts on things and even though most of us probably agree races are pretty well balanced we still want our favorite race to get a little more improvement somewhere. So for this thread to be anything more than warm fuzzy feelings, it needs some meat vs just fluff provided, which is all I am saying.2 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭...even though most of us probably agree races are pretty well balanced...
OP have not provided information on testing, you have not provided information on where and how did you get statistics that shows that 'most' part. Let's see it? The only poll on forum refutes you.
What I see is, for example, Liko's testing that shows khajiits to be behind orcs/dunmers on stamina. Results are around.2 -
BahometZ✭✭✭✭✭
✭What OP has to say is all nice and sweet, but it fails to actually provide a comparison that really says something other than one's opinion.
They say they have been doing a lot of testing. That is really easy to say but OP has not provided the slightest bit of information that shows they actually did any testing, let alone worthy, well thought out and planned testing.
So let's see it. Let's see what is actually says and if it is done in a way that provides worthy and meaningful information.
BTW, I am not arguing against, or with, the OP. I know we all have our own thoughts on things and even though most of us probably agree races are pretty well balanced we still want our favorite race to get a little more improvement somewhere. So for this thread to be anything more than warm fuzzy feelings, it needs some meat vs just fluff provided, which is all I am saying.
I've been doing a lot of testing and have discovered you're a doodyhead. Nah j/k. You alright.Pact Magplar - Max CP (NA XB)1 -
Mudcrabber✭✭✭✭On the magicka-dps side, I think for those changes to fly you'd have to remove the max-health bonus, so it's just 1k magicka and stamina. Otherwise I think it'd overperform in same-health magicka dps comparisons. Altmer just has 2k magicka and 258 spell damage. The proposed Khajiit will have 2.1k resource, 129 recovery, and 12% critical damage.
But removing the health bonus might weaken it too much on the stamina side. An Orc is like a stamina-Altmer (2k stamina, 258 weapon damage), but they get 1k health on top of that.
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WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What OP has to say is all nice and sweet, but it fails to actually provide a comparison that really says something other than one's opinion.
They say they have been doing a lot of testing. That is really easy to say but OP has not provided the slightest bit of information that shows they actually did any testing, let alone worthy, well thought out and planned testing.
So let's see it. Let's see what is actually says and if it is done in a way that provides worthy and meaningful information.
BTW, I am not arguing against, or with, the OP. I know we all have our own thoughts on things and even though most of us probably agree races are pretty well balanced we still want our favorite race to get a little more improvement somewhere. So for this thread to be anything more than warm fuzzy feelings, it needs some meat vs just fluff provided, which is all I am saying.
I don’t feel the need to prove something that is already widely accepted as fact. There are plenty of other threads with parses, graphs, and methodology. What I’m saying is that after experiencing this first hand I agree with the results, and would like to start discussing how to fix it.1 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mudcrabber wrote: »On the magicka-dps side, I think for those changes to fly you'd have to remove the max-health bonus, so it's just 1k magicka and stamina. Otherwise I think it'd overperform in same-health magicka dps comparisons. Altmer just has 2k magicka and 258 spell damage. The proposed Khajiit will have 2.1k resource, 129 recovery, and 12% critical damage.
But removing the health bonus might weaken it too much on the stamina side. An Orc is like a stamina-Altmer (2k stamina, 258 weapon damage), but they get 1k health on top of that.
@Mudcrabber I think it would end up very close to Orc with these changes.
Orc and Khajii would both have about 1k health (Khajiit gets 100 more, but Orc has more passive healing). Then Orc gets 258 weapon damage vs Kahjiit’s 12% Crit Dmg, of course it depends on build, but each of these should be very close to a 5% damage boost. So then we have 1000 Stamina on Khajiit, so we call that equal with 1000 of Orc’s stamina. The remaining 1000 Stamina on Orc can then be compared to the 129 Stamina Recovery on Khajiit. This is where the main difference lies, Khajiit would pull ahead if group sustain support is lacking in a long fight, while Orc would have a higher DPS ceiling on classes with good sustain and optimized groups. Both also have some utility passives as well, speed and sprint cost vs off-stat bonus and sneak, but these are more flavor passives than combat necessitiesfor balance.
For Altmer you can make a similar comparison. Where again the 258 Spell Damage is very similar to 12% Crit Dmg. Then you have 2k Max Magicka vs 1k Magicka + 129 Magicka Recovery. So for DPS the 2 would be very close.
I’ll agree with you that Altmer is falling behind on defense, and I’ve been pretty vocal about trying to get them a more useful 3rd passive as well (something like shield strength or better sustain). The general argument (that I do not agree with) is that Altmer’s damage is fine so they can’t have any nice things. I plan to keep beating that dead horse, but in the meantime I’d like to see Khajiit become more competitive in damage.0