Currently best to worst stamina DPS classes?

hedna123b14_ESO

Masel wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Donnasnowheart_ESO wrote: »

Who even has rotation difficulty at that level of PVE? Rotation difficulty shouldn't be a major factor when its not even something special to the class. NBs being top need to stop using that as a reason when literally the main special mech they have is being rewarded with big burst for weaving something every single class has to be doing to reach top numbers.

The funny part is that they DON'T have a hard rotation when it matters. Their pre-execute rotation has to be timed well, but they reason they do well is because of execute. A warden parses on par or better prior to the execute phase, but in execute the NB just explode with dpsand at that point their rotation actually becomes the easiest in the game.

Exactly. A non-scaling execute with 300% Bonus damage after 25% is insane (. Any other execute either doesnt scale or scales with 150-175% bonus damage at that time (executioner). Radiant has 240%, but you miss a light attack and front bar enchant procs at 25% so you land roughly where others are.

Looking at the abilities one by one:

Impale/Killers Blade:

Deals immediate damage in the amount of 0.052 Stamina and 0.542 Weapon Damage. Impale has the same, just with magicka. Deals 300% more damage to targets below 25%, meaning that from 50-0% health, it does an average of 150% additional damage if you'd be dumb enough to start using it early.

Executioner has the same skill coefficients of 0.052 stamina and 0.542 weapon damage. If you used it from 50% to 0% it would be 175% extra damage, which makes it better than killers blade, right?

In practice executes have opportunity costs. You give up either a DoT or a spammable for using them, and they only start outperforming a spammable after a certain percentage. Take surprise attack as an example: 0.103 Stamina and 1.084 weapon damage. Youd be dumb using executioner before 28-27%%, because the tooltip would be weaker than the one of surprise attack anyway and you should use your spammable until then. So even though executes look balanced when compared from 50% to 0%, they are not when you take the opportunity cost into account. Before 27-28%, you wouldn't use an execute anyway, and that is why killers blade/impale is so strong. It starts performing twice as well at that point because it just has a lot higher bonus damage than the other executes.

Sorc execute is pitifully weak. It doesn't scale and starts incredibly late. Look at the skill coefficient:

0.178 magicka and 1.85 spell damage which doesn't scale. This includes initial hit and the explosion. At 20% impale has coefficients of ~0.3 magicka and ~3.15 spell damage, so 70% more damage. And you can weave in between both of them, so no difference there.

Radiant oppression for example is different, since you lose one light attack per cast. It has 0.116 magicka and 1.223 spell damage. Since it does the damage over 2 seconds (1.8+the 0.2ms cooldown after channels) you'd have to halve the tooltip to match impale and deduct one light attack+a possible enchantment proc. It scales to 480%, meaning that it would have an average 240% from 50-0%, and 360% from 25% to 0. So you trade a light attack for 60% execute damage per cast, not taking the additional 20% bonus from oppression into account.

Radiant is the only one that yields somewhat comparable damage, but it has practical limitations, since it snares, cannot be used in block and is more clunky.

So tl;dr, NB execute is just vastly superior to other options...

Preach! I have no idea why KB doesnt have a sliding scale in proportion to health of the target.

Zenis

What stamina class can bring most self survivability with least dps sacrifice? Ofc not asking about meta here. Is it sorc or templar or something else?

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Masel wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Corpier wrote: »

RusevCrush wrote: »

Stamnb should always be top dps imo. It's a simple risk/reward thing. What would be the incentive to play them otherwise?

Risk/reward should make a difference in dps, so should selfish/enabling dps. Stamina Nightblade is actually one of the lowest risk stamina classes. They get major defensive buffs from their spammable. They have the sustain to not need to heavy attack and don't have any channeled abilities to get stuck in. They have better sustain and survivability in combat than most other classes in most situations (not all, especially if you count magicka and minitrials). If you want to get into enabling dps, with its cheap ultimate Incap it can buff its group with War Machine.

Stamsorc may have similar survivability from Hurricane, but lack the sustain and enabling dps. Stamplar can enable dps with Power of The Light and War Machine with the Sweep ult, but lacks survivability and sustain. Stamden has good sustain and can enable dps with the bear and War Machine (and can provide Minor Toughness without a Warden Healer), but lacks survivability. DK lacks it all, and I would advocate should have the highest potential dps if its rotation wasn't so mindnumbingly easy.

By my personal gameplay philosophy that risk/reward and selfish/enabling attributes of a class should effect how much dps it does, stamina nightblade should not be the highest preforming dps while having low risk (for stamina) and high enabling dps.

Ideally the reason to play one class over another should be a multilayered question and should function like: Does a class have more survival tools (sustain/mitigation/self-healing/mobility) built into their damage dealing abilities but do less damage overall? Then its probably better for beginners that don't know mechanics and don't need the dps since they aren't pushing score. Does the class offer buffs or utility for the group? Is someone already playing that class and providing that buff or utility? If not maybe I should play it, if so maybe I should play a class that will provide a different buff or utility, or play a more selfish class with slightly more damage.

P.S. And yes, I think classes/builds that enable more dps should do slightly less dps themselves. When it works well the buff provided often increases group dps much more than the penalty on the individual. If you want to think of it practically, then the amount of dps one person enables for the group could pretty much be added to their own parse as it is that valuable to the group when done right. So in my ideal model for a group, only 1-3 players would play the top dps class, and those would be the best dps in the group after other enabling dps buffs are provided by others, so that it would maximize the give/take and sacrifice/gain mentality that should exist in good group play.

I agree with everything you said. The only thing missing from the analysis is difficulty of rotation, which I also think needs considered. For example, i could probably teach my little sister to break 40k on a DK before I could on a stamblade. Now at some point, we are talking about min/maxed groups and it's assumed that rotations are all performed efficiently, but some classes are way easier on the fingers than others and to a beginner, that matters.

But that is a different problem. DK and sorc are simply boring to play. Their rotation is a giant circle as you say. While I think it's fine to be able to play a class like that, they should at least have a more interesting
possibility.




This is a summary of classes and their abilities that can be used effectively by a stamina build, and it shows pretty clearly why stamplar, stamden and stamblade feel unique and interesting.

They have a skill that their rotation centers around and are able to use low cost ultimates, while dk and sorc have no possibility of doing so...

You don’t have to sell me on more options for stam DK or stam Sorc. I think in a perfect world all classes would have a viable static and dynamic rotation where the later would reward more DPS and ideally be uniquely centered around a more complex class skill like relentless or sub assault.

Ragnarock41

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Corpier wrote: »

RusevCrush wrote: »

Stamnb should always be top dps imo. It's a simple risk/reward thing. What would be the incentive to play them otherwise?

Risk/reward should make a difference in dps, so should selfish/enabling dps. Stamina Nightblade is actually one of the lowest risk stamina classes. They get major defensive buffs from their spammable. They have the sustain to not need to heavy attack and don't have any channeled abilities to get stuck in. They have better sustain and survivability in combat than most other classes in most situations (not all, especially if you count magicka and minitrials). If you want to get into enabling dps, with its cheap ultimate Incap it can buff its group with War Machine.

Stamsorc may have similar survivability from Hurricane, but lack the sustain and enabling dps. Stamplar can enable dps with Power of The Light and War Machine with the Sweep ult, but lacks survivability and sustain. Stamden has good sustain and can enable dps with the bear and War Machine (and can provide Minor Toughness without a Warden Healer), but lacks survivability. DK lacks it all, and I would advocate should have the highest potential dps if its rotation wasn't so mindnumbingly easy.

By my personal gameplay philosophy that risk/reward and selfish/enabling attributes of a class should effect how much dps it does, stamina nightblade should not be the highest preforming dps while having low risk (for stamina) and high enabling dps.

Ideally the reason to play one class over another should be a multilayered question and should function like: Does a class have more survival tools (sustain/mitigation/self-healing/mobility) built into their damage dealing abilities but do less damage overall? Then its probably better for beginners that don't know mechanics and don't need the dps since they aren't pushing score. Does the class offer buffs or utility for the group? Is someone already playing that class and providing that buff or utility? If not maybe I should play it, if so maybe I should play a class that will provide a different buff or utility, or play a more selfish class with slightly more damage.

P.S. And yes, I think classes/builds that enable more dps should do slightly less dps themselves. When it works well the buff provided often increases group dps much more than the penalty on the individual. If you want to think of it practically, then the amount of dps one person enables for the group could pretty much be added to their own parse as it is that valuable to the group when done right. So in my ideal model for a group, only 1-3 players would play the top dps class, and those would be the best dps in the group after other enabling dps buffs are provided by others, so that it would maximize the give/take and sacrifice/gain mentality that should exist in good group play.

I agree with everything you said. The only thing missing from the analysis is difficulty of rotation, which I also think needs considered. For example, i could probably teach my little sister to break 40k on a DK before I could on a stamblade. Now at some point, we are talking about min/maxed groups and it's assumed that rotations are all performed efficiently, but some classes are way easier on the fingers than others and to a beginner, that matters.

But that is a different problem. DK and sorc are simply boring to play. Their rotation is a giant circle as you say. While I think it's fine to be able to play a class like that, they should at least have a more interesting
possibility.




This is a summary of classes and their abilities that can be used effectively by a stamina build, and it shows pretty clearly why stamplar, stamden and stamblade feel unique and interesting.

They have a skill that their rotation centers around and are able to use low cost ultimates, while dk and sorc have no possibility of doing so...

You don’t have to sell me on more options for stam DK or stam Sorc. I think in a perfect world all classes would have a viable static and dynamic rotation where the later would reward more DPS and ideally be uniquely centered around a more complex class skill like relentless or sub assault.

I'm pretty sure majority of the stamsorcs and Dks actually want complex class skills and to be rewarded for using such(yet they don't get any kind of love for years now, at most nerfs like implosion removal or meaningless ''buffs'' like world in ruin rework, that made claws a ''spammable''. And more stamina morphs is nothing but an empty dream at this point.) , yes in a perfect world every class should have easier and harder rotations and builds for both PvE and PvP, but well. stamDK is a class that was meant to be a tank but then received two stamina dots. Stamsorc is an abomination, despite wrobels best efforts.

Harrdarrzarr

Those that call the change to implosion a nerf for pve sorcs have not been paying attention to the last few weeks.

Ragnarock41

Harrdarrzarr wrote: »

Those that call the change to implosion a nerf for pve sorcs have not been paying attention to the last few weeks.

It is a nerf as far as PvP goes, implosion was very cheesy and PvP is all about who got the best cheese.

Onefrkncrzypope

SDK and Stam Sorc need a rotation reward like every other class. Potl/purifying light, spectral bow, crystal frags, sub/deep fissure. Meh dk at least had power lash for awhile(was that the right morph IDC). Give a morph of frags for stamsorc and a proccy skill for DK and everything will be ok.

Corpier

I think a few posts like mine may have derailed this thread. It seems to have gone from asking for a simple answer on the present stamina dps hierarchy, to an analysis of why each class has that spot and further derailed into questioning whether the classes deserve their spot and how to improve classes that are not nightblade.

I made a new thread that can be found here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/464154/how-and-why-to-balance-class-dps-for-group-play/p1?new=1. Hopefully this discussion could be continued as it seems informative and could help both players and devs understand why some classes are preferred and how to make each have a better place in group play.

Dardas

I'd just like to give everyone my 2 cents with an update on my first stamina DPS...

I have been using the stamplar, at lvl 31 now. It has been surprising good in battlegrounds and pretty impressive damage in PVE.

I am tempted to use my Warden tank and turn it into a stamden DPS too. However, I do find the stamplar skills to be more fun.

The combination of binding javelin, POTL, and spamming jabs is really effective. Also is pretty forgiving as the costs are pretty low.

I just unlocked cleansing ritual so that will be very helpful to use, and I imagine using Restoring focus, once I unlock it will be nice for extra resistance.

JinMori

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

reprosal wrote: »

StamDK is actually still pretty strong. It is just not the ‘meta’.

Just another word for meh. Because how good or bad something performs is decided by comparing it to the rest. When I look at stamDk as a PvE DD, I see that it doesn't have anything that sets it apart. No utility whatsoever, decent damage but not the best, decent sustain but again not the best. (In fact, the only quality that set stamDK apart was the easy heavy attack rotation but still competitive damage, which is completely butchered by heavy attack nerfs.. I guess too much diversity for us huh.)

On top of all this I can't even proc my own utility passives because there is not a single earthen heart ability that fits a stamDD's build. It used to be molten armaments(ironic, a skill not even designed for stamDDs). Now not even that.

One of the problems with stam dk, is that for some reason this class has skills that do not scale with the cp that a stam dd usually takes, .

Examples, standard of might (major dps loss), flames of oblivion (again major dps loss), only these 2 come to mind, but that alone means you lose at least 5 % damage, because these abilities are very strong.

Also, low sustain, and no support at all, thanks to stam dk not proccing minor brutality, which makes a lot of sense.....

JinMori

When people say, well this class should get more damage because this reason and that, i think that's not really a good way of looking things, i think all classes should be able to do dps close to each other, and bring utility in their own way, and have similar sustain.

JinMori

Looking at this tread i wonder, should zos just change all executes to make them scale from 50 % incrementally like radiant destruction?

Although i wonder, how come that radiant oppression usually does more damage overall compared to kb? what other factors do we have to take into this calculation?

Also, please make magic swords, i miss dw magplar, and i would also like to try melee mag nb with concealed weapon.

JinMori

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Dardas, I think that stamplar rotation is way easier than stamblade's, it's practically like stamDK's, with the exception that you have to rebuff Restoring Focus every other rotation. But I didn't try on live so stamplar mains will say more.

On NB, you have to rebuff two skills and use a proc skill every 5th weave, plus - I think unlike with stamplar - you don't have place for all buffs on your front bar and have to use Incap off cooldown, so if you're running AY and want to have optimal rotation without losing AY stacks, you have to swap into back bar during front bar rotation when needed to rebuff Leeching and/or cast Incap (with swap-cancel to front bar, to get Incap hit buffed by front bar stats).

@KhajiitFelix , specifically for you, I'll post Liko's parses. ^^ Putting under spoiler to avoid making it spammy.

Stamblade.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0-QTbvzCPI&t=2s

Stamden.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQK-Y2_BSIM&t=62s

Stamplar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42f40QCN1JU&t=46s

1k dps difference.

Agree. Stamblade is the toughest rotation, and Stam Warden is probably the second toughest. NB requires management of relentless focus, and stamden requires a high uptime on Sub Assault, which means a lot of bar swapping as its a very short duration skill.

DK is probably the easiest to maximize on a dummy (the rotation is a giant circle), but stamplar is really close. It can still be played with a circular rotation, its just slightly more complicated because you need to cast POTL twice per rotation for good uptime.

Stam Sorc is not terribly difficult on a dummy, it just struggles with single target. That said, the AOE and innate survivability of stam sorc make them a very compelling option for anyone not trying to push trial scores. I still think they are the most fun to play, and have the easiest time in any of the Arenas.

I don't know about you guys, but iv'e never had more problems playing any spec over the other, aside from mag nb, and mag warden, those are the only 2 specs that i would say are objectively more difficult to play because of different dot uptimes or managing relentless focus or deep fissure.

But please zos don't take this as nerf nb, iv'e already made a few posts about this, but there are other ways of reducing power creep, other than nerfing.

Contrary to what the forums seem to agree on, i did not like the fact that we do not get cp increases anymore, mostly because it's a quick cop out for a problem that should have been already dealt with the first day you introduced the cp system to the game, progression systems are good, but the game needs to be balanced around it.

Do not remove it, or stop it, just work around it, make new more difficult modes, for pve, like m+ in wow, that will basically remove power creep in pve content, adding is in the long run better than removing.

Ragnarock41

JinMori wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

reprosal wrote: »

StamDK is actually still pretty strong. It is just not the ‘meta’.

Just another word for meh. Because how good or bad something performs is decided by comparing it to the rest. When I look at stamDk as a PvE DD, I see that it doesn't have anything that sets it apart. No utility whatsoever, decent damage but not the best, decent sustain but again not the best. (In fact, the only quality that set stamDK apart was the easy heavy attack rotation but still competitive damage, which is completely butchered by heavy attack nerfs.. I guess too much diversity for us huh.)

On top of all this I can't even proc my own utility passives because there is not a single earthen heart ability that fits a stamDD's build. It used to be molten armaments(ironic, a skill not even designed for stamDDs). Now not even that.

One of the problems with stam dk, is that for some reason this class has skills that do not scale with the cp that a stam dd usually takes, .

Examples, standard of might (major dps loss), flames of oblivion (again major dps loss), only these 2 come to mind, but that alone means you lose at least 5 % damage, because these abilities are very strong.

Also, low sustain, and no support at all, thanks to stam dk not proccing minor brutality, which makes a lot of sense.....

For standart and flames of oblivion, yes I do agree these should do physical damage if the user is stamina DD, however both abilities are part of reason why stamDK has such an easy rotation. Standart, inferno, noxious, claws, rending.... stamDk setup is full of dots and there is just no room for an interesting or difficult rotation. To fix this problem the answer is quite obvious, change some of those dots into more interesting things. How to make these boring dots more interesting is quite a challange though. I believe noxious breath would be a good point to start or even giving a stamina spammable that synergizes with poison dots could be a good move.(yes I'm fully aware rending/claws are perfect spammables right now. That doesn't mean there is no room for a real one.)

To keep it short, I believe noxious breath needs a complete rework to turn it into a dps skill that is both complex and strong, in its current form its quite useless(in both PvP and PvE, it does sub-par damage and people tend to use it as a source of major fracture rather than a dot) and having to slot such a weak dot just for the sake of fracture also kills me inside.

JinMori

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

reprosal wrote: »

StamDK is actually still pretty strong. It is just not the ‘meta’.

Just another word for meh. Because how good or bad something performs is decided by comparing it to the rest. When I look at stamDk as a PvE DD, I see that it doesn't have anything that sets it apart. No utility whatsoever, decent damage but not the best, decent sustain but again not the best. (In fact, the only quality that set stamDK apart was the easy heavy attack rotation but still competitive damage, which is completely butchered by heavy attack nerfs.. I guess too much diversity for us huh.)

On top of all this I can't even proc my own utility passives because there is not a single earthen heart ability that fits a stamDD's build. It used to be molten armaments(ironic, a skill not even designed for stamDDs). Now not even that.

One of the problems with stam dk, is that for some reason this class has skills that do not scale with the cp that a stam dd usually takes, .

Examples, standard of might (major dps loss), flames of oblivion (again major dps loss), only these 2 come to mind, but that alone means you lose at least 5 % damage, because these abilities are very strong.

Also, low sustain, and no support at all, thanks to stam dk not proccing minor brutality, which makes a lot of sense.....

For standart and flames of oblivion, yes I do agree these should do physical damage if the user is stamina DD, however both abilities are part of reason why stamDK has such an easy rotation. Standart, inferno, noxious, claws, rending.... stamDk setup is full of dots and there is just no room for an interesting or difficult rotation. To fix this problem the answer is quite obvious, change some of those dots into more interesting things. How to make these boring dots more interesting is quite a challange though. I believe noxious breath would be a good point to start or even giving a stamina spammable that synergizes with poison dots could be a good move.(yes I'm fully aware rending/claws are perfect spammables right now. That doesn't mean there is no room for a real one.)

To keep it short, I believe noxious breath needs a complete rework to turn it into a dps skill that is both complex and strong, in its current form its quite useless(in both PvP and PvE, it does sub-par damage and people tend to use it as a source of major fracture rather than a dot) and having to slot such a weak dot just for the sake of fracture also kills me inside.

Well, the reason why rending/venomous claws are spammables is because of sustain same thing for stam sorc.

Only thing, make standard and flames poison so they fit the stamdk theme better.

Also, as some pointed out, classes really need something to differentiate them from other classes, dots are not enough, just doing a big circle of a rotation is not fun, Personally i think to fix this they need to make more morphs, and more skills, all classes should have access to some kind of execute, to differentiate the execute rot to the pre execute, this is a big problem i have with all the classes that don;t have access to an execute in their class skilline, also a proc like bow or cristal frag would be good, for example, cristal blast as a stam morph.

Execute for me is really good, because it gives that "damn" moment to the rotation, when you see an ability hitting really damn hard, and it's really satisfying, otherwise the rotation is just the same always.

Ragnarock41

JinMori wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

reprosal wrote: »

StamDK is actually still pretty strong. It is just not the ‘meta’.

Just another word for meh. Because how good or bad something performs is decided by comparing it to the rest. When I look at stamDk as a PvE DD, I see that it doesn't have anything that sets it apart. No utility whatsoever, decent damage but not the best, decent sustain but again not the best. (In fact, the only quality that set stamDK apart was the easy heavy attack rotation but still competitive damage, which is completely butchered by heavy attack nerfs.. I guess too much diversity for us huh.)

On top of all this I can't even proc my own utility passives because there is not a single earthen heart ability that fits a stamDD's build. It used to be molten armaments(ironic, a skill not even designed for stamDDs). Now not even that.

One of the problems with stam dk, is that for some reason this class has skills that do not scale with the cp that a stam dd usually takes, .

Examples, standard of might (major dps loss), flames of oblivion (again major dps loss), only these 2 come to mind, but that alone means you lose at least 5 % damage, because these abilities are very strong.

Also, low sustain, and no support at all, thanks to stam dk not proccing minor brutality, which makes a lot of sense.....

For standart and flames of oblivion, yes I do agree these should do physical damage if the user is stamina DD, however both abilities are part of reason why stamDK has such an easy rotation. Standart, inferno, noxious, claws, rending.... stamDk setup is full of dots and there is just no room for an interesting or difficult rotation. To fix this problem the answer is quite obvious, change some of those dots into more interesting things. How to make these boring dots more interesting is quite a challange though. I believe noxious breath would be a good point to start or even giving a stamina spammable that synergizes with poison dots could be a good move.(yes I'm fully aware rending/claws are perfect spammables right now. That doesn't mean there is no room for a real one.)

To keep it short, I believe noxious breath needs a complete rework to turn it into a dps skill that is both complex and strong, in its current form its quite useless(in both PvP and PvE, it does sub-par damage and people tend to use it as a source of major fracture rather than a dot) and having to slot such a weak dot just for the sake of fracture also kills me inside.

Well, the reason why rending/venomous claws are spammables is because of sustain same thing for stam sorc.

Only thing, make standard and flames poison so they fit the stamdk theme better.

Also, as some pointed out, classes really need something to differentiate them from other classes, dots are not enough, just doing a big circle of a rotation is not fun, Personally i think to fix this they need to make more morphs, and more skills, all classes should have access to some kind of execute, to differentiate the execute rot to the pre execute, this is a big problem i have with all the classes that don;t have access to an execute in their class skilline, also a proc like bow or cristal frag would be good, for example, cristal blast as a stam morph.

Execute for me is really good, because it gives that "damn" moment to the rotation, when you see an ability hitting really damn hard, and it's really satisfying, otherwise the rotation is just the same always.

I don't see anything new for stamDK/sorc happening.They've always been ignored , and they will be ignored because there isn't a large playerbase like magsorc/nightblade playerbase to force changes to happen. Its just how its always been.

JinMori

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

reprosal wrote: »

StamDK is actually still pretty strong. It is just not the ‘meta’.

Just another word for meh. Because how good or bad something performs is decided by comparing it to the rest. When I look at stamDk as a PvE DD, I see that it doesn't have anything that sets it apart. No utility whatsoever, decent damage but not the best, decent sustain but again not the best. (In fact, the only quality that set stamDK apart was the easy heavy attack rotation but still competitive damage, which is completely butchered by heavy attack nerfs.. I guess too much diversity for us huh.)

On top of all this I can't even proc my own utility passives because there is not a single earthen heart ability that fits a stamDD's build. It used to be molten armaments(ironic, a skill not even designed for stamDDs). Now not even that.

One of the problems with stam dk, is that for some reason this class has skills that do not scale with the cp that a stam dd usually takes, .

Examples, standard of might (major dps loss), flames of oblivion (again major dps loss), only these 2 come to mind, but that alone means you lose at least 5 % damage, because these abilities are very strong.

Also, low sustain, and no support at all, thanks to stam dk not proccing minor brutality, which makes a lot of sense.....

For standart and flames of oblivion, yes I do agree these should do physical damage if the user is stamina DD, however both abilities are part of reason why stamDK has such an easy rotation. Standart, inferno, noxious, claws, rending.... stamDk setup is full of dots and there is just no room for an interesting or difficult rotation. To fix this problem the answer is quite obvious, change some of those dots into more interesting things. How to make these boring dots more interesting is quite a challange though. I believe noxious breath would be a good point to start or even giving a stamina spammable that synergizes with poison dots could be a good move.(yes I'm fully aware rending/claws are perfect spammables right now. That doesn't mean there is no room for a real one.)

To keep it short, I believe noxious breath needs a complete rework to turn it into a dps skill that is both complex and strong, in its current form its quite useless(in both PvP and PvE, it does sub-par damage and people tend to use it as a source of major fracture rather than a dot) and having to slot such a weak dot just for the sake of fracture also kills me inside.

Well, the reason why rending/venomous claws are spammables is because of sustain same thing for stam sorc.

Only thing, make standard and flames poison so they fit the stamdk theme better.

Also, as some pointed out, classes really need something to differentiate them from other classes, dots are not enough, just doing a big circle of a rotation is not fun, Personally i think to fix this they need to make more morphs, and more skills, all classes should have access to some kind of execute, to differentiate the execute rot to the pre execute, this is a big problem i have with all the classes that don;t have access to an execute in their class skilline, also a proc like bow or cristal frag would be good, for example, cristal blast as a stam morph.

Execute for me is really good, because it gives that "damn" moment to the rotation, when you see an ability hitting really damn hard, and it's really satisfying, otherwise the rotation is just the same always.

I don't see anything new for stamDK/sorc happening.They've always been ignored , and they will be ignored because there isn't a large playerbase like magsorc/nightblade playerbase to force changes to happen. Its just how its always been.

Well, and the reason is mostly because they suck, so it's a self fulfilling prophecy.

Anyway all it would take is change a few useless abilities like blast.

For now at least, hopefully zos will later make new morphs and a 4th set of class abilities

cpuScientist

One quick thing about stamPlar. Their dps is near if 100% uptime of minor beserk. Further groups tend to bring 1 stamPlar at most and then the rest stamBlades or stamDens. StamBlade rotation is harder but you are newer so just go into the deep end. Also you mentioned wanting to PvP as well stamBlade is really strong there and stamPlar is just ok.

hedna123b14_ESO

cpuScientist wrote: »

One quick thing about stamPlar. Their dps is near if 100% uptime of minor beserk. Further groups tend to bring 1 stamPlar at most and then the rest stamBlades or stamDens. StamBlade rotation is harder but you are newer so just go into the deep end. Also you mentioned wanting to PvP as well stamBlade is really strong there and stamPlar is just ok.

Their DPS isn't near...unless you think 10k+ lower is near..

Oreyn_Bearclaw

JinMori wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Dardas, I think that stamplar rotation is way easier than stamblade's, it's practically like stamDK's, with the exception that you have to rebuff Restoring Focus every other rotation. But I didn't try on live so stamplar mains will say more.

On NB, you have to rebuff two skills and use a proc skill every 5th weave, plus - I think unlike with stamplar - you don't have place for all buffs on your front bar and have to use Incap off cooldown, so if you're running AY and want to have optimal rotation without losing AY stacks, you have to swap into back bar during front bar rotation when needed to rebuff Leeching and/or cast Incap (with swap-cancel to front bar, to get Incap hit buffed by front bar stats).

@KhajiitFelix , specifically for you, I'll post Liko's parses. ^^ Putting under spoiler to avoid making it spammy.

Stamblade.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0-QTbvzCPI&t=2s

Stamden.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQK-Y2_BSIM&t=62s

Stamplar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42f40QCN1JU&t=46s

1k dps difference.

Agree. Stamblade is the toughest rotation, and Stam Warden is probably the second toughest. NB requires management of relentless focus, and stamden requires a high uptime on Sub Assault, which means a lot of bar swapping as its a very short duration skill.

DK is probably the easiest to maximize on a dummy (the rotation is a giant circle), but stamplar is really close. It can still be played with a circular rotation, its just slightly more complicated because you need to cast POTL twice per rotation for good uptime.

Stam Sorc is not terribly difficult on a dummy, it just struggles with single target. That said, the AOE and innate survivability of stam sorc make them a very compelling option for anyone not trying to push trial scores. I still think they are the most fun to play, and have the easiest time in any of the Arenas.

I don't know about you guys, but iv'e never had more problems playing any spec over the other, aside from mag nb, and mag warden, those are the only 2 specs that i would say are objectively more difficult to play because of different dot uptimes or managing relentless focus or deep fissure.

But please zos don't take this as nerf nb, iv'e already made a few posts about this, but there are other ways of reducing power creep, other than nerfing.

Contrary to what the forums seem to agree on, i did not like the fact that we do not get cp increases anymore, mostly because it's a quick cop out for a problem that should have been already dealt with the first day you introduced the cp system to the game, progression systems are good, but the game needs to be balanced around it.

Do not remove it, or stop it, just work around it, make new more difficult modes, for pve, like m+ in wow, that will basically remove power creep in pve content, adding is in the long run better than removing.

I mean... The two you mentioned are exactly what I was talking about. Merciless/Relentless absolutely adds a layer of difficulty to manage as does Scorch and it's respective morphs. Both significantly increase the bar swapping you need to do. POTL complicates things to a much lesser degree on stamplar, because it still needs to be cast twice per rotation. Sorcs and DKs are absent a class skill that merits designing a rotation around, and are certainly the easiest rotations to perform at a competent level. Now how much more difficult a NB is compared to other classes is certainly subjective, but any way you slice it, its more difficult to play.

Masel

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Dardas, I think that stamplar rotation is way easier than stamblade's, it's practically like stamDK's, with the exception that you have to rebuff Restoring Focus every other rotation. But I didn't try on live so stamplar mains will say more.

On NB, you have to rebuff two skills and use a proc skill every 5th weave, plus - I think unlike with stamplar - you don't have place for all buffs on your front bar and have to use Incap off cooldown, so if you're running AY and want to have optimal rotation without losing AY stacks, you have to swap into back bar during front bar rotation when needed to rebuff Leeching and/or cast Incap (with swap-cancel to front bar, to get Incap hit buffed by front bar stats).

@KhajiitFelix , specifically for you, I'll post Liko's parses. ^^ Putting under spoiler to avoid making it spammy.

Stamblade.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0-QTbvzCPI&t=2s

Stamden.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQK-Y2_BSIM&t=62s

Stamplar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42f40QCN1JU&t=46s

1k dps difference.

Agree. Stamblade is the toughest rotation, and Stam Warden is probably the second toughest. NB requires management of relentless focus, and stamden requires a high uptime on Sub Assault, which means a lot of bar swapping as its a very short duration skill.

DK is probably the easiest to maximize on a dummy (the rotation is a giant circle), but stamplar is really close. It can still be played with a circular rotation, its just slightly more complicated because you need to cast POTL twice per rotation for good uptime.

Stam Sorc is not terribly difficult on a dummy, it just struggles with single target. That said, the AOE and innate survivability of stam sorc make them a very compelling option for anyone not trying to push trial scores. I still think they are the most fun to play, and have the easiest time in any of the Arenas.

I don't know about you guys, but iv'e never had more problems playing any spec over the other, aside from mag nb, and mag warden, those are the only 2 specs that i would say are objectively more difficult to play because of different dot uptimes or managing relentless focus or deep fissure.

But please zos don't take this as nerf nb, iv'e already made a few posts about this, but there are other ways of reducing power creep, other than nerfing.

Contrary to what the forums seem to agree on, i did not like the fact that we do not get cp increases anymore, mostly because it's a quick cop out for a problem that should have been already dealt with the first day you introduced the cp system to the game, progression systems are good, but the game needs to be balanced around it.

Do not remove it, or stop it, just work around it, make new more difficult modes, for pve, like m+ in wow, that will basically remove power creep in pve content, adding is in the long run better than removing.

I mean... The two you mentioned are exactly what I was talking about. Merciless/Relentless absolutely adds a layer of difficulty to manage as does Scorch and it's respective morphs. Both significantly increase the bar swapping you need to do. POTL complicates things to a much lesser degree on stamplar, because it still needs to be cast twice per rotation. Sorcs and DKs are absent a class skill that merits designing a rotation around, and are certainly the easiest rotations to perform at a competent level. Now how much more difficult a NB is compared to other classes is certainly subjective, but any way you slice it, its more difficult to play.

Actually, mag warden has a very easy almost static rotation that yields really good dps:

https://youtu.be/Dz45TF7kLys

Just 1k below what liko had on his build with the same buffs, just way easier to play. And I didn't pre-buff with channeled acceleration...

Mag nb is way more difficult to get to that point of dps, because the rotation is forcably more dynamic.

lassitershawn

Stamblade is your best chance to get into raids. Serious raids usually won't bring stam DDs that aren't NB or sometimes Warden. Mag has a little bit more leeway with NB, Templar, and Sorc all being viable.

Masel

lassitershawn wrote: »

Stamblade is your best chance to get into raids. Serious raids usually won't bring stam DDs that aren't NB or sometimes Warden. Mag has a little bit more leeway with NB, Templar, and Sorc all being viable.

That is a very nitpicky manner within the community though... when you look at likos murkmire parses, all stam specs are very very close together and at a pretty ridiculous level of dps anyway. Stamblade is harder to play than any of the other specs, making it only outperform others as long as you can weave perfectly and get enough bow procs in. Other classes are way more forgiving for learners, leading to them dealing more dps on them in many cases... and dps is so high that in anything that is not a score chase, you can usually bring any stam spec and succeed.

Stamblade is competitive, while everything is viable at the level of dps we have. These two terms are hard to separate...

JinMori

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Dardas, I think that stamplar rotation is way easier than stamblade's, it's practically like stamDK's, with the exception that you have to rebuff Restoring Focus every other rotation. But I didn't try on live so stamplar mains will say more.

On NB, you have to rebuff two skills and use a proc skill every 5th weave, plus - I think unlike with stamplar - you don't have place for all buffs on your front bar and have to use Incap off cooldown, so if you're running AY and want to have optimal rotation without losing AY stacks, you have to swap into back bar during front bar rotation when needed to rebuff Leeching and/or cast Incap (with swap-cancel to front bar, to get Incap hit buffed by front bar stats).

@KhajiitFelix , specifically for you, I'll post Liko's parses. ^^ Putting under spoiler to avoid making it spammy.

Stamblade.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0-QTbvzCPI&t=2s

Stamden.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQK-Y2_BSIM&t=62s

Stamplar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42f40QCN1JU&t=46s

1k dps difference.

Agree. Stamblade is the toughest rotation, and Stam Warden is probably the second toughest. NB requires management of relentless focus, and stamden requires a high uptime on Sub Assault, which means a lot of bar swapping as its a very short duration skill.

DK is probably the easiest to maximize on a dummy (the rotation is a giant circle), but stamplar is really close. It can still be played with a circular rotation, its just slightly more complicated because you need to cast POTL twice per rotation for good uptime.

Stam Sorc is not terribly difficult on a dummy, it just struggles with single target. That said, the AOE and innate survivability of stam sorc make them a very compelling option for anyone not trying to push trial scores. I still think they are the most fun to play, and have the easiest time in any of the Arenas.

I don't know about you guys, but iv'e never had more problems playing any spec over the other, aside from mag nb, and mag warden, those are the only 2 specs that i would say are objectively more difficult to play because of different dot uptimes or managing relentless focus or deep fissure.

But please zos don't take this as nerf nb, iv'e already made a few posts about this, but there are other ways of reducing power creep, other than nerfing.

Contrary to what the forums seem to agree on, i did not like the fact that we do not get cp increases anymore, mostly because it's a quick cop out for a problem that should have been already dealt with the first day you introduced the cp system to the game, progression systems are good, but the game needs to be balanced around it.

Do not remove it, or stop it, just work around it, make new more difficult modes, for pve, like m+ in wow, that will basically remove power creep in pve content, adding is in the long run better than removing.

I mean... The two you mentioned are exactly what I was talking about. Merciless/Relentless absolutely adds a layer of difficulty to manage as does Scorch and it's respective morphs. Both significantly increase the bar swapping you need to do. POTL complicates things to a much lesser degree on stamplar, because it still needs to be cast twice per rotation. Sorcs and DKs are absent a class skill that merits designing a rotation around, and are certainly the easiest rotations to perform at a competent level. Now how much more difficult a NB is compared to other classes is certainly subjective, but any way you slice it, its more difficult to play.

Yes, but mag den and nb especially, are also harder because of different dot timers, you will lose a considerable amount of dps by not doing a dynamic rotation, while the same cannot be said for stamblade, although it is slightly harder, i do agree, because of that layer of complexity.

But its not just complexity, classes need something to differentiate them from each other, a core skill that makes it fun to play, not necessarily different, but fun, for example, execute, you could argue that then it would be the same as nb, which it doesn;t, because there are different ways at approaching an execute, but it would make the rotation a bit different, and most probably more satisfying.

By the way, the problem i have with this logic, is you can use it for pretty much anything, well all classes have dots, so they are the same, well all classes can have access to a spammable so they are the same, no, that is not the point, you can make a skill that serves the same purpose while being different in it's own right, radiant oppression feels nothing like killer's blade or impale, or bear.


And for this, i think 3 class skillines are not enough, we would need a 4th, and also more morphs are appreciated, but overall, it does not necessarily have to be an execute, but each spec need something to that makes them fun to play, when i use stamsorc i think, well, this is just weapon skills with hurricane, that's not good enough.

lassitershawn

Masel wrote: »

lassitershawn wrote: »

Stamblade is your best chance to get into raids. Serious raids usually won't bring stam DDs that aren't NB or sometimes Warden. Mag has a little bit more leeway with NB, Templar, and Sorc all being viable.

That is a very nitpicky manner within the community though... when you look at likos murkmire parses, all stam specs are very very close together and at a pretty ridiculous level of dps anyway. Stamblade is harder to play than any of the other specs, making it only outperform others as long as you can weave perfectly and get enough bow procs in. Other classes are way more forgiving for learners, leading to them dealing more dps on them in many cases... and dps is so high that in anything that is not a score chase, you can usually bring any stam spec and succeed.

Stamblade is competitive, while everything is viable at the level of dps we have. These two terms are hard to separate...

Yea I specifically mentioned serious raids, and stam NB success carries over to raid far better than other classes for multiple reasons. Self-applied berserk means less reliant on healer and realistically even with cprayer a healer can't keep it up 100% of the time in a raid environment. Best ult for use in combination with WM. Best execute by far means you can nuke through executes which is often the most important part of a fight to nuke through quickly. Higher base critical chance scales better with major force. Additional natural tankiness through leeching strikes and major resists on SA cast. Fracture on SA cast does also matter if you are hitting something not being debuffed by tanks.

tcrite

Protossyder wrote: »

I wouldn't recommend to follow the I-am-a-beginner-so-I'll-take-an-easy-class path. Go for the nightblade. You even stated that it's one of your favorites.

It might have a more challenging rotation than other classes, but it definitely pays off. Orc is the best race btw.

I was under the impression that Redguard was the best race for stamina dps...is that only the case if you have sustain issues?

JobooAGS

tcrite wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

I wouldn't recommend to follow the I-am-a-beginner-so-I'll-take-an-easy-class path. Go for the nightblade. You even stated that it's one of your favorites.

It might have a more challenging rotation than other classes, but it definitely pays off. Orc is the best race btw.

I was under the impression that Redguard was the best race for stamina dps...is that only the case if you have sustain issues?

Bosmer is better for sustain (and even damage and tankiness) orc is much better for damage. Why go redguard?