Tharn's age/relationship --- something is wrong here

Lyserus

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_LeamonTuttle

In meet the character: Clivia Tharn,
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25429
Septima refer to Clivia and Euraxia as "sisters", say things like "Back when we were all studying different parts of Father's curriculum for world domination", "my sisters"
tho in game there are clear indications that Abnur refers Euraxia as his half-sister,
and the way Septima is mentioned in <<Chancellor Abnur Tharn Answers Your Questions 2>> (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Chancellor_Abnur_Tharn_Answers_Your_Questions_2)
"Does Septima hold the interests of those in Cyrodiil at heart as she wages war, or does your daughter, Clivia?" Says Septima is NOT Abnur's daughter

Now this is broken in any way you explain things

Case 1.They are sisters. Aka they are all Abnur's daughters, and when the letter of Meet the Characters take place, Septima was 13, Clivia 7.5 and Euraxia 6. Now consider Emeric (born in 521) was around the same age as Septima (give it a 5 year leeway), Septima is born between 516 to 526, making the event mentioned in letter around 529-539, making Clivia born around 521-531, and euraxia 523-533. Making it that by the time Abnur Tharn is 164 in 582 (where ESO took place), Septima 66-76 years old, Clivia 60-70 years old, Euraxia 59-69 years old

So what does it broke? Varen, born in 536, became emperor in 573 (37 years old), married Clivia, who is 51-61 years old?
And Abnur, still able to reproduce at age 95 minimium?
And Abnur didn't even bother to mention that you kill his grandson Javad? (Well, if Tharns age and reproduce like this he probably has an army of grandsons, that's for sure)

Now this can still be explain by that magically slowed aging making Abnur and Clivia still able to produce children (no emperor would knowingly marry a infertile woman)
BUT, case 1 is very likely to be not true, since everywhere else Septima and Euraxia are not referred as Abnur's daughter, as listed above

So Case 2, Septima is a niece or sister of Abnur (basically taken out of consideration), and Euraxia is Abnur's half-sister
What does it break? Firstly the letter in Meet the character is completely broken
Secondly, this means that there is a old monster Tharn, still alive and kicking at age 110 minimum (that is assuming he had Abnur at age 15) and still able to get a new child? And that means he would be 179 years old at ESO time, so maybe he is even alive?

In either cases something needs to fixed there, either their relationships or their ages, or something about Tharn's aging secret need to be shown in the lore

Lyserus

made 3 "lore" posts now, I was just trying to find some more information about Euraxia XD
Abnur's age really screwed up many things

TiaFrye

Abnur is a necromancer and a powerfull mage, his age and babymaking abilities should not surprise you. Does he helped Clivia with this? I dunno.

Tharns are very power hungry by nature, no surprise they'll do anything to expand their time as rullers. Inbreeding is also an option, maybe. As is misunderstanding. They might be cousins refering each others as sisters because they grew up together and so on. Cousins are basically brothers and sisters in the 2nd generation. Also it's common amongst women to build sisterhood even with no blood relation in picture.

Seraphayel

This is a very interesting topic!

Is Abnur really a Necromancer though? I know he makes us reanimate that Atronach but does this make him a Necromancer? I always thought of him as a Magblade kind of caster.

ArchMikem

Seraphayel wrote: »

This is a very interesting topic!

Is Abnur really a Necromancer though? I know he makes us reanimate that Atronach but does this make him a Necromancer? I always thought of him as a Magblade kind of caster.

He's a Sorcerer that also practices Necromancy, or at least is proficient in it.

MaxJrFTW

Inbreeding and magic. That's all there is to it.

Abnur Tharn: "Dank corridors, crumbling walls, nauseating smells. This place has all the charm of a Riften brothel. It must feel very much like home to you, Titanborn."
Lyris Titanborn: "You mean a crypt filled with the rotting corpses of inbred kings and failed statesmen. Must be what it's like at a Tharn family reunion."

Narvuntien

He is an imperial sorcerer who is well over 100 years old which is beyond a human lifespan.

I believe similar to Divayth Fyr and Mistress Dratha he has made a pact with a daedra to extend his life span, or similar simply spending a lot of time in Oblivion can extend your life span as time flows differently there.

Erris

Given that the Tamriel day/night cycle is about six hours Earth time, it's fairly safe to assume that a year in Tamriel is not the same length of time as an Earth year.

starkerealm

Seraphayel wrote: »

This is a very interesting topic!

Is Abnur really a Necromancer though? I know he makes us reanimate that Atronach but does this make him a Necromancer? I always thought of him as a Magblade kind of caster.

He is, canonically, a necromancer. Maybe not the way we'll have a player class, though.

Remember, with The Elder Scrolls Online, player classes have more to do with where players are drawing their power, and how they were trained. However, Abnur is a practiced arcane mage, (probably with a similar education to the sorceror class), who has studied the daedra and necromancy extensively.

He's not a Nightblade because he's not practicing Shadow Magic. That one's kinda straight forward. Similarly, he's not practicing Akaviri martial arts (DK), not practicing nature magic (Wardens), and not drawing his power from Meridia or the Divines (Templars), so if you must put a class on him, Sorc seems most likely. Though I'm not sure he's made the same dark deals that player Sorcs have, as they're pulling their power from pacts with Hermaeus Mora (based on the Unholy Knowledge passive's text. (Though, I'll need to log in and check, that text may have been streamlined out at some point.))

SantieClaws

Khajiit does not want to think about old man Tharn's relationships too much no.

Now this one must wash out her mind with soap and water …

Yours with paws
Santie Claws

dogman

In this universe, where everything is possible. Where literal Gods speak with mortals and have them do their bidding, where Dragons fly around, where Cat and Lizard people run around freely, where trees are sentient, you stop and say "Well, this is out of place."

this is what breaks it for you?

starkerealm

A couple things:

Mages in The Elder Scrolls can live for a very long time. Remember, Manimarco is in TES2 and 4. That's after he's spent some time getting up close and personal with Molag Bal's ire.

Mankar Camoran is over four hundred years old in Oblivion.
Vanus Galarion and Manimarco both predate the departure of Artaeum. (So that's been a minute.)

As I recall, Divayth Fyr is over 4k years old.

What we don't know is how. We know that vampires are functionally immortal. Lamae Bal dates back to the Mytheric era. Harkon, Valerica, and Serana probably do as well. (Given that Serana is unfamiliar with a Cyrodiilic Empire. Though her desire to meet the Dwarves could put them in the second Era, prior to the events of ESO, which would still make them over a millennia old.

Now, a couple centuries isn't really that long for a mage in Tamriel. The idea that Tharn has preserved himself this long isn't really that strange. Similarly, it's not that surprising that other members of the family may have done so as well. The Nibenese branch of Imperials are known for their mages (more accurately their philosophers, though many powerful Imperial mages are of Nibenese stock), so it's not that strange to see the Tharn family as scions of magic. This reputation would persist into the third era with Jagger Tharn.

So, yeah, the ages provided for the Tharns do make sense in context. It may sound a bit strange outside of that context, but not that much.

As for sorting out the family tree... eh. It could simply be there are two women in the Tharn family named Euraxia, or that Euraxia was raised with Tharn's daughters, and they treated her as a surrogate sister (based on her age.) Without knowing more about the specific family dynamics, it's kinda hard to say. The other obvious explanation would be a Chinatown reference, but if that's accurate, then, yeak.

Mettaricana

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Inbreeding and magic. That's all there is to it.

Abnur Tharn: "Dank corridors, crumbling walls, nauseating smells. This place has all the charm of a Riften brothel. It must feel very much like home to you, Titanborn."
Lyris Titanborn: "You mean a crypt filled with the rotting corpses of inbred kings and failed statesmen. Must be what it's like at a Tharn family reunion."

I missed lyris response on this quest

ArchMikem

SantieClaws wrote: »

Khajiit does not want to think about old man Tharn's relationships too much no.

Now this one must wash out her mind with soap and water …

Yours with paws
Santie Claws

Yknow Santie there are quite a few examples of Sibling Love over in the March. Relationships of that nature may not be so upsetting to the khajiiti.