People not trying in BGs and how to solve it

highkingnm

I've been really into BGs for a bit now, having created a BGs focused toon and all. but I've noticed a really worrying trend of people just not trying the second they fall behind. Just had one today where we were only one relic capture behind, so I said we need to go get an unguarded relic or green will win. They start going "They've already won". They have if no one tries. This is a really common occurrence and seems to be happening lots now, where people will just give up on the objective and do nothing or just go for kills not captures in land grabs. Equally had problems with people who, the second they see they are in a strong group, stay at base just to get the XP.

So, my view on possible fixes to people not trying?
-Tie rewards (XP and reward boxes) purely to medal score, not team ranking. This means YOU have to try to get it, not the other three people. It also means that if you throw in the towel and stop trying, you get less back.
-Vote to kick function. Please, I would rather have a 3 person team than a 3 person team with a spectator who tells me what to do in the chat. It means that people come along just for the XP and can do nothing. Ironically, they also tend to be very vocal in chat and tell everyone what to do, despite only light attacking with a bow from base themselves.
-Camping penalty. If you stay in base (or maybe even one place) for too long, place an increasing DoT on them. Make it like CCGs where if you do it enough it becomes instant. Die to it three times, you get no rewards.

I know that these won't make it perfect, but there needs to be something to make people not just give up to make the BGs over sooner. It sucks when you try so hard for the first 5 minutes then your team basically tells you to shove it.

oxygen_thief

its a low mmr full of pvers. toxic players are people from higher levels on new toons which lost their patience because of all this madness around. rewards are tied to medal score. voting is a cancer. there is a camping penalty already.

MaxJrFTW

oxygen_thief wrote: »

its a low mmr full of pvers. toxic players are people from higher levels on new toons which lost their patience because of all this madness around. rewards are tied to medal score. voting is a cancer. there is a camping penalty already.

People not trying happens at any MMR. Today in the morning i had a player saying we didn't have a chance because the other team had ChunkyCat... I'm not gonna name this player to save him from the embarrassment. He sat at the spawn the whole game, and he wasn't even removed for inactivity.

Can you imagine? They have X player, guess i'm sitting this one out. Pretty sad tbh.

Thogard

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

oxygen_thief wrote: »

its a low mmr full of pvers. toxic players are people from higher levels on new toons which lost their patience because of all this madness around. rewards are tied to medal score. voting is a cancer. there is a camping penalty already.

People not trying happens at any MMR. Today in the morning i had a player saying we didn't have a chance because the other team had ChunkyCat... I'm not gonna name this player to save him from the embarrassment. He sat at the spawn the whole game, and he wasn't even removed for inactivity.

Can you imagine? They have X player, guess i'm sitting this one out. Pretty sad tbh.

@ChunkyCat bro you’re an AM celebrity

ChunkyCat

Pretty amusing, especially since out of the four or five games I played this morning, I only won once.

ccfeeling

The higher score team , 4 experienced players camping in the base with well defense setup , TBH , it's nearly impossible to take from them , 0 % if they are pre-made group

Im still new in BG , and I found that I don't really like this mode unless all other are new joiners , they play more agressive but just camping .

Fake Remedy

allow people to group up with others before a match...?

InvictusApollo

Fake Remedy wrote: »

allow people to group up with others before a match...?

Sadly this isn't a solution. If you group up with others, then you are going to be matched against optimized premades. Unless your premade is also optimized andy synergized, then you don't stand a chance.

Beside it's much more fun having multiple duels 1v2s than constant 4v4.

russelmmendoza

I am all for penalizing those people that dont try at all in bg matches.
But fix the premade group from joining solo players, premades will farm the living shiitt out of solo players most of the time if not all of the time.
Premade camping solo players spawning area happens a lot, specially if they see that they are just running such group to the ground.
How about giving buffs in spawning area and giving debuffs to other players that is not from that spawning area.

Iskiab

There’s only one real solution - make a premade. Venting might help if someone reads it and changes their habits, but the devs can’t design around someone’s flaws.

Sometimes people are trying too. When I play my stamblade I almost feel sorry for my team mates. I am trying but I am THAT bad so don’t do well.

Don’t get mad too; sometimes people are experimenting, new to pvp or the game. You have to be encouraging and positive no matter what. Last BG I healed for 2x my entire team’s damage, c’est la vie and leaning takes time. They tried as I just said gg at the end, if I was on my stamblade I’d probably have done worse.

exeeter702

Meh. You cant solve this when the foundation for your BG system and map design is fundamentally flawed.

3 team nonsense

Uniteresting incentives for winning

Objective based modes poorly desgined

Maps desgined to be one size fits all instead of specific maps geographically desgined around specific game modes only.

Kova

Weird. I get nothing but Monday morning quarter backs.

*try hard teammate doesn't communicate the entire game*

Game ends

Tryhard: "omg ffs this team is terrible. No one is working together!"

*leaves riding high at the bottom of the scoreboard*

Edit:

Looking back I genuinely think eso PvP attracts the mentally impaired.

ecru

exeeter702 wrote: »

Meh. You cant solve this when the foundation for your BG system and map design is fundamentally flawed.

3 team nonsense

Uniteresting incentives for winning

Objective based modes poorly desgined

Maps desgined to be one size fits all instead of specific maps geographically desgined around specific game modes only.

It's weird that zos doesn't seem to have anyone on their team who realizes these things. Anyone who has pvp'd even semi-seriously in MMOs for awhile would understand all of these points and the system we have now never would have gone live in the first place. It's almost like they looked at other games with good instanced pvp and decided to do the total opposite, or just didn't bother to look at other games at all despite there being decades of development and balance decisions to guide them.

StormeReigns

Kova wrote: »

Weird. I get nothing but Monday morning quarter backs.

*try hard teammate doesn't communicate the entire game*

Game ends

Tryhard: "omg ffs this team is terrible. No one is working together!"

*leaves riding high at the bottom of the scoreboard*

Edit:

Looking back I genuinely think eso PvP attracts the mentally impaired.

Same here. No matter if it is objective based BG (like crazy king) or not.

Sadly with any format that offers PvP, it'll bring the dumb out of everyone. No matter what, or who. It will happen at least once.

Had (wish i had recorded it) a game Deathmatch where we had a 810cp Bow/Bow StamDK snipe spamming, and just practically 1 shotting everything in his path, but, sadly when he got caught, instant dead. Like you sneeze, he fall over dead. But absolutely melted the other teams when they didnt focus him.

And we had a 124cp MagWarden just bitching about how the dk wasnt trying and just feeding the teams free kills and not trying, spamming /z, /y, /s and /group chats for us to report him. DK was at like 4580 points with 30+kills and 20+ deaths and 20+ assist. The warden was at 450 points with 4kills and 16 deaths 1 assist by the time match was over, and it was everyones fault for the terrible play and that the DK was at fault, despite us winning.

Iskiab

Kova wrote: »

Weird. I get nothing but Monday morning quarter backs.

*try hard teammate doesn't communicate the entire game*

Game ends

Tryhard: "omg ffs this team is terrible. No one is working together!"

*leaves riding high at the bottom of the scoreboard*

Edit:

Looking back I genuinely think eso PvP attracts the mentally impaired.

Only time I comment is when I see my team pushing and people pull back. As a healer it’s one of my biggest pet peaves. I always ask myself why I bother healing them at all. They’ll literally kite back after getting scratched and the push will fail.

Best case for them is they’ll get away and live while the rest of the team dies, worst case is they’re prolonging their death and sabotaging their team.

Sometimes I’ll comment if people are splitting up and not playing together. You know the type, wants to duel people and don’t know how to pvp.

PvP is like the prisoner’s dilemma. If everyone’s aggressive you all do better but someone always tries to cheat for an advantage. That’s why premades dominate, it’s not specs that work together it’s everyone being on the same page.

Neoealth

It's called sulking, op.

Really annoying when team mates do it. One little thing goes wrong or they die and their ego gets bruised.

oxygen_thief

SkerKro wrote: »

And we had a 124cp MagWarden just bitching about how the dk wasnt trying and just feeding the teams free kills and not trying, spamming /z, /y, /s and /group chats for us to report him. DK was at like 4580 points with 30+kills and 20+ deaths and 20+ assist. The warden was at 450 points with 4kills and 16 deaths 1 assist by the time match was over, and it was everyones fault for the terrible play and that the DK was at fault, despite us winning.

yes its a terrible play if you have tanky support build and trying to save your sniper which falls dead in 1 sec. you stay alone against full team and get focused. those numbers dont represent a skill level or something its just numbers. people may dont have a clue how to play get sandwiched again and again but have high score because of aoe frag stealing and other reasons.

Iskiab

oxygen_thief wrote: »

SkerKro wrote: »

And we had a 124cp MagWarden just bitching about how the dk wasnt trying and just feeding the teams free kills and not trying, spamming /z, /y, /s and /group chats for us to report him. DK was at like 4580 points with 30+kills and 20+ deaths and 20+ assist. The warden was at 450 points with 4kills and 16 deaths 1 assist by the time match was over, and it was everyones fault for the terrible play and that the DK was at fault, despite us winning.

yes its a terrible play if you have tanky support build and trying to save your sniper which falls dead in 1 sec. you stay alone against full team and get focused. those numbers dont represent a skill level or something its just numbers. people may dont have a clue how to play get sandwiched again and again but have high score because of aoe frag stealing and other reasons.

I agree, but figuring out the flow of combat in pvp takes time and experience. I also found it more difficult to master as a melee since you’re so focused on chasing a target and staying in melee range.

I’m starting to think it’s also something a lot harder to learn outside pvping with a group regularly. There aren’t enough pvp guilds who do BGs for a lot to learn.

Someone can pvp a lot solo and be high rank or whatever, but never learn group play or work well with teammates.

exeeter702

The only time i will concede out the gates, is when i enter a bg as a healer and see my 3 teammates are stamblades with sub 20k hp.

99 percent of the time, these players operate entirely on their own terms and i usually am left getting hard focused while they cloak and reset. Its simply not worth the effort.

Ofc their scores end up highe than mine since i dont really have anyone to heal and get labeled as deadweight

StormeReigns

oxygen_thief wrote: »

SkerKro wrote: »

And we had a 124cp MagWarden just bitching about how the dk wasnt trying and just feeding the teams free kills and not trying, spamming /z, /y, /s and /group chats for us to report him. DK was at like 4580 points with 30+kills and 20+ deaths and 20+ assist. The warden was at 450 points with 4kills and 16 deaths 1 assist by the time match was over, and it was everyones fault for the terrible play and that the DK was at fault, despite us winning.

yes its a terrible play if you have tanky support build and trying to save your sniper which falls dead in 1 sec. you stay alone against full team and get focused. those numbers dont represent a skill level or something its just numbers. people may dont have a clue how to play get sandwiched again and again but have high score because of aoe frag stealing and other reasons.

The main issue wasnt the DK, it was the warden, all we knew was he was a magicka warden, u k ow build cause he sat in base in rhe farthest corner after dying a handful of times. The warden, Who spent the rest match complaining versus contributing. Sure the DK died more often versus the rest of us, but he was actively contributing to the Deathmatch BG.

Honestly, sure it is sad to see the DK die so quickly, but at least being active and in the mix, and giving up to troll the chat and try to get one person reported for things they didnt like on a personal level, maybe, at the very least would have some.form of valid complaint in chaos, crazy or domination with actual objectives that dont require mindless slaughter.

Cathexis

I think a component of this problem has to do with the overarching problem of pitting premades against pug groups. It creates circumstances where organized premades have a significant upperhand.

exeeter702

Cathexis wrote: »

I think a component of this problem has to do with the overarching problem of pitting premades against pug groups. It creates circumstances where organized premades have a significant upperhand.

Which would not have been an issue had BGs been formatted properly from the start.

bardx86

Remove pets for BG's is a start. Many folks just will not engage in a fight with them on opposing teams or even just quit.

SacredEarth

exeeter702 wrote: »

Meh. You cant solve this when the foundation for your BG system and map design is fundamentally flawed.

3 team nonsense

Uniteresting incentives for winning

Objective based modes poorly desgined

Maps desgined to be one size fits all instead of specific maps geographically desgined around specific game modes only.

I am glad to see these points made, especially about the 3 teams. Just make some 2 team BGs with a couple more players added to each side, let the numbers help cover the skill differences a bit. I really want to play BGs, and am ready to put a lot more time into practice. Everytime I start grinding away at them I get so frustrated that I quit... I used to do a lot of BattleGrounds in WoW and I never experienced this much frustration.