Heists and Sacraments, possible to forego stealth?

Finder

I know you can pretty much go in guns blazing on Heists, you'll fail the timer but can still "succeed". Is it the same for Sacraments, or do they have a "fail" status (besides not killing targets the proper way)?

Erris

You'll just end up with a bounty. As long as you don't fail ALL the objectives, you'll get a reward. If you complete them all, you get a better reward and better chance of motifs.

But they're pretty easy anyway. Just do the secondary quest first, then eliminate the main target (make sure you have a poison equipped if it calls for that) and make your way back to the beginning and out. Invisibility potions help a lot, and rapids is also good. I think they're a lot more fun than heists.

Finder

Erris wrote: »

You'll just end up with a bounty. As long as you don't fail ALL the objectives, you'll get a reward. If you complete them all, you get a better reward and better chance of motifs.

But they're pretty easy anyway. Just do the secondary quest first, then eliminate the main target (make sure you have a poison equipped if it calls for that) and make your way back to the beginning and out. Invisibility potions help a lot, and rapids is also good. I think they're a lot more fun than heists.

Thanks, but I generally have a burning hatred of timed content, I just want my tickets.

Gythral

Heists: yes, everything can die...
Sacraments, not sure what happens if you reach the 5/5 alarms, ...and you get a bounty in these

Erris

The first part you can do with no timer. The timer only starts when you kill the main target, and that means just pop an invis pot if necessary and run for the exit (within 2 minutes). You can be spotted by 4 NPCs and that's not a problem. Most of these sacraments can be completed in under 5 minutes (or longer if you're having trouble finding someone hiding in a secret room).

If you only want the ticket, you can even skip the secondary objective and just kill the main target and run.

josiahva

I just forego stealth content entirely. If I want to play a sneak-thief I will go play Metal Gear Solid or Thief or Dishonored or one of the other games built around it entirely, I really dislike how its implemented in ESO

DLM

josiahva wrote: »

I just forego stealth content entirely. If I want to play a sneak-thief I will go play Metal Gear Solid or Thief or Dishonored or one of the other games built around it entirely, I really dislike how its implemented in ESO

It seriously lacks a lure, like throwing a stone to distract a patrol.

Question about heists, if you have the blade of woe you can't even assassinate guards (well if you want to complete the timed objective)? I was surprised to see my time go down though no one was alerted from my kill.

Tasear

josiahva wrote: »

I just forego stealth content entirely. If I want to play a sneak-thief I will go play Metal Gear Solid or Thief or Dishonored or one of the other games built around it entirely, I really dislike how its implemented in ESO

How would you change it if you could?

luen79rwb17_ESO

I hate these guilds, I hate these dailies and I hate this event! Ugh! Why ZOS, why this punishment?!

Everstorm

DLM wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

I just forego stealth content entirely. If I want to play a sneak-thief I will go play Metal Gear Solid or Thief or Dishonored or one of the other games built around it entirely, I really dislike how its implemented in ESO

It seriously lacks a lure, like throwing a stone to distract a patrol.

Question about heists, if you have the blade of woe you can't even assassinate guards (well if you want to complete the timed objective)? I was surprised to see my time go down though no one was alerted from my kill.

Maybe it's to emphazise the difference between the two guilds. Thieves guild is for stealing, Dark Brotherhood for murder.

Everstorm

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

I hate these guilds, I hate these dailies and I hate this event! Ugh! Why ZOS, why this punishment?!

If ZOS would only do event types that everyone likes there would be no events.

Finder

So I did them for today...and yeah, they are both garbage because of the "blue ring" guards. They couldn't make a good stealth system, so the made one that is overpowered...to balance it they made NPCs that just ignore stealth for no good reason in missions that require it.

Starlock

Tasear wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

I just forego stealth content entirely. If I want to play a sneak-thief I will go play Metal Gear Solid or Thief or Dishonored or one of the other games built around it entirely, I really dislike how its implemented in ESO

How would you change it if you could?

Having played some of the games @josiahva refers to, it's just really hard to add good stealth mechanics to a game that wasn't built for it from the ground up. What Zenimax did with the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood additions was pretty amazing considering ESO doesn't support stealth gameplay well. It's some of the more enjoyable content to me, in spite of being a pale shadow of what games like Thief, Deus Ex, or Dishonored offer.

There are two things that could really help ESO's stealth gameplay if implemented: detection levels and a cover system.

Games that are built around stealth gameplay have more sophisticated stealth levels. In ESO, it is basically all or nothing. You are either hidden or you are not. When you are spotted, it is game over for sneaking. There is no running away, going back into cover, and loosing the enemy. TG/DB added those little hiding spots to give us this function... sort of... but it isn't the same. I suspect the game engine does not allow for levels of detection because how "in combat" and "out of combat" are treated. It has to be all or nothing, and there can't be stages of AI awareness of sneaking characters or the ability to run around a corner, hide, and get that awareness back down. The best they could do was those little baskets.

Related to that, games built around stealth gameplay also use a cover system. You crouch behind one object, and can command your character to quickly duck to the next piece of cover. Combined with detection levels, a cover system allows the player to move from location to location without being spotted entirely by the enemy. Again, the hiding spots in TG/DB sort of allow for this... but not really. This is another thing that I doubt the game engine for ESO really supports.

Anhedonie

You don't have to fail the timer on heists though. I usually just don't kill anyone, but I don't crouch aside from couple moments either.

Number_51

Starlock wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

I just forego stealth content entirely. If I want to play a sneak-thief I will go play Metal Gear Solid or Thief or Dishonored or one of the other games built around it entirely, I really dislike how its implemented in ESO

How would you change it if you could?

Having played some of the games @josiahva refers to, it's just really hard to add good stealth mechanics to a game that wasn't built for it from the ground up. What Zenimax did with the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood additions was pretty amazing considering ESO doesn't support stealth gameplay well. It's some of the more enjoyable content to me, in spite of being a pale shadow of what games like Thief, Deus Ex, or Dishonored offer.

There are two things that could really help ESO's stealth gameplay if implemented: detection levels and a cover system.

Games that are built around stealth gameplay have more sophisticated stealth levels. In ESO, it is basically all or nothing. You are either hidden or you are not. When you are spotted, it is game over for sneaking. There is no running away, going back into cover, and loosing the enemy. TG/DB added those little hiding spots to give us this function... sort of... but it isn't the same. I suspect the game engine does not allow for levels of detection because how "in combat" and "out of combat" are treated. It has to be all or nothing, and there can't be stages of AI awareness of sneaking characters or the ability to run around a corner, hide, and get that awareness back down. The best they could do was those little baskets.

Related to that, games built around stealth gameplay also use a cover system. You crouch behind one object, and can command your character to quickly duck to the next piece of cover. Combined with detection levels, a cover system allows the player to move from location to location without being spotted entirely by the enemy. Again, the hiding spots in TG/DB sort of allow for this... but not really. This is another thing that I doubt the game engine for ESO really supports.

I agree that ESO probably wasn't made, from the start, with a lot of this in mind. But I think they've done well adding things that mimic the sort of dedicated cover mechanics you guys are talking about. Line of sight/hiding behind cover actually does work. In fact, in the Deadhollow Halls heist, that is the only way to get past a guard with the blue "reveal" circle in one hallway. I would equate the partially opened eye as stealth levels. And I believe that's also related to the NPC "cone of perception". You can be quite close to an NPC if you're behind them, as you cross into their peripheral the eye begins to open and finally, fully opens once you're inside their cone of perception (dependent on stealth bonuses).

Donny_Vito

Craft some Invis Pots, they are your friends in these two types on content. I can do each in about 5-10 minutes with a couple Invis pots.

Hand_Bacon

Thought this read "Heists and Sacramento" and thought, yes, they do happen there...

IzzyStardust

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

I hate these guilds, I hate these dailies and I hate this event! Ugh! Why ZOS, why this punishment?!

They should also apply for any daily in the areas. Not just those 2.

Neoealth

I forgot how much I hate doing those sacraments, for some reason it really "triggers" me when I get caught and it speeds up the timer, in a single player TES game I would reload the save and do it again.

I end up losing my patience and just murdering everyone. The stealth in ESO just feels clunky compared to say oblivion or skyrim. I quite like doing the assassin missions out in the world though.

Guessing it might be easier to do on a night blade though, with their stealth ability.

TelvanniWizard

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

I hate these guilds, I hate these dailies and I hate this event! Ugh! Why ZOS, why this punishment?!

Just ignore the event. That's what I do.

SFDB

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

I hate these guilds, I hate these dailies and I hate this event! Ugh! Why ZOS, why this punishment?!

Just ignore the event. That's what I do.

*Remains Silent*

disintegr8

I've got 12 tickets left over from the previous event, so I'll buy the new feather on day 1. My only interest is getting tickets for the next feather so I'll give this event a go.

I begrudgingly completed both quest lines on at least one character and have very little interest in doing them again. If I find the DB quests too tedious, I'll just stick with the TG quests to get my ticket allotment.

OtarTheMad

I wish you could get the tickets another way because I am NOT a fan of either of these dailies

Smitch_59

Everstorm wrote: »

DLM wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

I just forego stealth content entirely. If I want to play a sneak-thief I will go play Metal Gear Solid or Thief or Dishonored or one of the other games built around it entirely, I really dislike how its implemented in ESO

It seriously lacks a lure, like throwing a stone to distract a patrol.

Question about heists, if you have the blade of woe you can't even assassinate guards (well if you want to complete the timed objective)? I was surprised to see my time go down though no one was alerted from my kill.

Maybe it's to emphazise the difference between the two guilds. Thieves guild is for stealing, Dark Brotherhood for murder.

The all seem to end up with murder for me!

OmniDo

*Blinks*
Nightblade Vampires make these super-easy...to the point of being ridiculously easy.

For the other classes, yeah...Invis potions or bust.

Taleof2Cities

Finder wrote: »

So I did them for today...and yeah, they are both garbage because of the "blue ring" guards. They couldn't make a good stealth system, so the made one that is overpowered...to balance it they made NPCs that just ignore stealth for no good reason in missions that require it.

Huh?

Hundreds of players (including this player) can complete the missions without issues with the guards.

Just because you don’t want to learn the room mechanics doesn’t mean the content is “garbage”.

max_only

josiahva wrote: »

I just forego stealth content entirely. If I want to play a sneak-thief I will go play Metal Gear Solid or Thief or Dishonored or one of the other games built around it entirely, I really dislike how its implemented in ESO

Funny, those games and similar are the reason why I do a stealth play through in this game and I enjoyed* it immensely.

Starlock wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

I just forego stealth content entirely. If I want to play a sneak-thief I will go play Metal Gear Solid or Thief or Dishonored or one of the other games built around it entirely, I really dislike how its implemented in ESO

How would you change it if you could?

Having played some of the games @josiahva refers to, it's just really hard to add good stealth mechanics to a game that wasn't built for it from the ground up. What Zenimax did with the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood additions was pretty amazing considering ESO doesn't support stealth gameplay well. It's some of the more enjoyable content to me, in spite of being a pale shadow of what games like Thief, Deus Ex, or Dishonored offer.

There are two things that could really help ESO's stealth gameplay if implemented: detection levels and a cover system.

Games that are built around stealth gameplay have more sophisticated stealth levels. In ESO, it is basically all or nothing. You are either hidden or you are not. When you are spotted, it is game over for sneaking. There is no running away, going back into cover, and loosing the enemy. TG/DB added those little hiding spots to give us this function... sort of... but it isn't the same. I suspect the game engine does not allow for levels of detection because how "in combat" and "out of combat" are treated. It has to be all or nothing, and there can't be stages of AI awareness of sneaking characters or the ability to run around a corner, hide, and get that awareness back down. The best they could do was those little baskets.

Related to that, games built around stealth gameplay also use a cover system. You crouch behind one object, and can command your character to quickly duck to the next piece of cover. Combined with detection levels, a cover system allows the player to move from location to location without being spotted entirely by the enemy. Again, the hiding spots in TG/DB sort of allow for this... but not really. This is another thing that I doubt the game engine for ESO really supports.

“There is no running away, going back into cover, and loosing the enemy“

Line of sight does work in this game outside of the dlc. Granted it only works on my Nightblade but I can cloak and run behind a pillar/stack of crates and it absolutely does work. I have the opposite of your experience top to bottom.

@Tasear
The only mechanic I would add to this game to make it more like a real stealth game is a noisemaker/distraction mechanic. In other stealth games you can throw some pebbles or something in one direction and get the guard to look over there for a few moments. Since this is an mmo, distraction as team tactic would be good too. Pair up for pickpocketing for example. One player engages the npc and the other crouches behind. Every success pick deposits an item into both players’ inventory.



*Edit for past tense. I’m not changing to anthro for any reason.

Shawn_PT

DLM wrote: »

Question about heists, if you have the blade of woe you can't even assassinate guards (well if you want to complete the timed objective)? I was surprised to see my time go down though no one was alerted from my kill.

In Sacraments you are perfectly welcome to disposing of how many witnesses you feel are needed. In fact, this is part of the fun. Seeing which NPCs are problematic around your target, eliminate them one by one. Until all that's left it the target. Beware that they do have a respawn timer and sometimes a passage that you have cleared beforehand is populated again when you're trying to make your escape later.

As for Heists, the main objective is stealth, not murder. You will get 'spotted' each time you kill an enemy even if they don't actually see you. The point is to get in, pilfer the stuff, and get out without leaving traces of your presence behind. A corpse lying around goes against that. But as with everything, all these require is some training. I've ran both heists and sacraments on a human magsorc in full light armor with no invisibility pots. But it is incredibly hard and relies a lot on where the objectives are or which mission you get. So having the right gear and the right consumables helps immensely.

therift

I ran the Heist and Black Sacrament after a two year hiatus on the content. I didn't sneak or avoid guards or use the Blade of Woe. I killed everything in my way, killed the mini-bosses that appear for epic failure, and made sure I picked up the loot in Heist and killed the NPC with the 'Hand' icon over his head for Sacrament. Much faster than skulking about sweating over timers.

I received an Event Ticket for each quest, three motif pages, and some stuff to decon.

These DLCs are three years old. Power creep since they launched has made quest criteria and mechanics largely irrelevant if your only purpose is to earn the Tickets with minimum time and effort.

ookami007

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

I hate these guilds, I hate these dailies and I hate this event! Ugh! Why ZOS, why this punishment?!

Just ignore the event. That's what I do.

Same.

LiquidPony

therift wrote: »

I ran the Heist and Black Sacrament after a two year hiatus on the content. I didn't sneak or avoid guards or use the Blade of Woe. I killed everything in my way, killed the mini-bosses that appear for epic failure, and made sure I picked up the loot in Heist and killed the NPC with the 'Hand' icon over his head for Sacrament. Much faster than skulking about sweating over timers.

I received an Event Ticket for each quest, three motif pages, and some stuff to decon.

These DLCs are three years old. Power creep since they launched has made quest criteria and mechanics largely irrelevant if your only purpose is to earn the Tickets with minimum time and effort.

Yep.

Have never done a heist on PC.

Did my first one today.

Wouldn't call it a "heist". It was more of an armed robbery. Ran full speed through the content and killed everything I saw. Got my ticket. Took 2 minutes.