Snares

MalagenR

Kadoin wrote: »

fullheartcontainer wrote: »

Bringing this back on topic amidst some arguing. I think most people are sick of snares, but there are a few people that seem to like them, claiming one of two things.

1. There are counters
2. That it stops a speed meta

Running sets as a counter seems to be illogical. Snares are so pervasive that it seems like this argument says "You must give up a five piece and become significantly weaker in order to move" which is a little crazy. The base movement speed should be the most common movement speed in a fight. Ability counters like shuffle or forward momentum are frankly far too short, too expensive, and for certain classes like stamplar FM is frankly nonviable to run over rally. Furthermore, my argument is that snares shouldn't require these counters at all. Like hard CCs, snares should be something that must be specifically applied (no gratuitous aoe snares or snares attached to random damage abilities), and should be something that once free from grants an immunity to further snares for a period of time. Current counter abilities like shuffle and FM should have their times significantly lengthened.

The speed meta is something else I see people talk about, but snares doesn't actually address it as well as some believe. Due to swift nerfs, it's not as common as it used to be but you certainly still people run speed builds. These builds are difficult to lock down, even with snares, as once they are out of the snare aoe they can zoom away happily. Snare doesn't affect them directly, just happenstancily in close-quarters where it affects everyone else too. Hard CC is the counter to speed, not snares.

You don't get it do you?

I'd hate snares if I ran around in a ball all day and they caused me to wipe because my EG and purify spam couldn't take what I wanted off of me thanks to snare debuffs too.

I'd hate snares if I was a stam build in max resist with little stam regen because I stacked a bunch of weapon damage and a snare stopping me from killing an opponent that keeps either streaking or rolling around.

I'd hate snares too if I were a stam NB that relied exclusively on cloak and when I was running, I got caught in an ice wall and killed.

I'd hate snares too if I were a stam DK that built for nothing but tankiness and damage and a snare user runs circles around me before running my stam down and I die. I'd hate snares too if I was bad enough to get destroyed by a mag warden because I accidently slipped up in my rolling and rotation against them.

I'd especially hate snares if I didn't need them, but my opponent did and it would make life far easier for me with them gone.

BUT

Snares would be fine on all the skills I use, all the classes I love, and all the ground effects I crutch on. There's no way that nerfing snares would be a super-buff to my playstyle. There's also no way what I crutch on needs a nerf or any counter to it. I shouldn't have to actually suffer the consequences of build decisions. I should just ask for a nerf for every other person or mechanic I can't stand because my build is actually bad and I need the game balanced in a way to benefit me so I can prove how good I am.

Do you understand my stance now? Or has it cleared up yours?

I have a laundry list of videos for you. Going to start with this 1st one though, then I'll post one every week from here on out.

Thogard

MalagenR wrote: »

montiferus wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

[
First, let's see this video of your gameplay. I'd love to get an idea of what your "1vx snare build" is capable of. You said you'd post it, so follow through.

You will never see them. I've already asked and when he demanded I send him clips first I did. Of course this was not reciprocated. Been waiting 3 months for these mythical clips and yet to see anything.

LOL this guy is my biggest stalker.

Post vid

jcm2606

All I hear in this thread,

"No! Don't nerf the thing I crutch on that more than halves my opponent's movement speed, that needs next to no commitment to keep up, that is so cheap to reapply, that is tacked onto every third ability! You don't know what'll happen if snares are addressed! I'll have to fight my opponent without them being stuck in superglue 24/7!"

Also, agree with Thogard, post vid.

Qbiken

Post vid

MalagenR

Recent 1v3 I referenced in my above post. Note, the build should run tripots but I've been working a lot lately and don't feel like farming IC so I've been running cheap, I'd be a lot less restricted and probably would have ended the fight much faster if I had Major Intellect up, on this build it pushes my Mag Recovery up to 2700. I run one shield. I don't stack resists. You're on your own figuring out the rest.

FYI - when I watch myself play I still just think this is "okay" I've never recorded and watched myself play before, it's incredibly weird. But apparently you're not allowed to post on the forums about PVP unless you have video proof that you can kill bad players in outnumbered fights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRAX-bMSFJM

montiferus

MalagenR wrote: »

Recent 1v3 I referenced in my above post. Note, the build should run tripots but I've been working a lot lately and don't feel like farming IC so I've been running cheap, I'd be a lot less restricted and probably would have ended the fight much faster if I had Major Intellect up, on this build it pushes my Mag Recovery up to 2700. I run one shield. I don't stack resists. You're on your own figuring out the rest.

FYI - when I watch myself play I still just think this is "okay" I've never recorded and watched myself play before, it's incredibly weird. But apparently you're not allowed to post on the forums about PVP unless you have video proof that you can kill bad players in outnumbered fights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRAX-bMSFJM

top player ps4 na

i was worried waiting 3 months for this clip would leave me feeling unsatisfied. boy was I wrong.

MalagenR

montiferus wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Recent 1v3 I referenced in my above post. Note, the build should run tripots but I've been working a lot lately and don't feel like farming IC so I've been running cheap, I'd be a lot less restricted and probably would have ended the fight much faster if I had Major Intellect up, on this build it pushes my Mag Recovery up to 2700. I run one shield. I don't stack resists. You're on your own figuring out the rest.

FYI - when I watch myself play I still just think this is "okay" I've never recorded and watched myself play before, it's incredibly weird. But apparently you're not allowed to post on the forums about PVP unless you have video proof that you can kill bad players in outnumbered fights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRAX-bMSFJM

top player ps4 na

i was worried waiting 3 months for this clip would leave me feeling unsatisfied. boy was I wrong.

lol I knew I could count on you.

Koensol

MalagenR wrote: »

Recent 1v3 I referenced in my above post. Note, the build should run tripots but I've been working a lot lately and don't feel like farming IC so I've been running cheap, I'd be a lot less restricted and probably would have ended the fight much faster if I had Major Intellect up, on this build it pushes my Mag Recovery up to 2700. I run one shield. I don't stack resists. You're on your own figuring out the rest.

FYI - when I watch myself play I still just think this is "okay" I've never recorded and watched myself play before, it's incredibly weird. But apparently you're not allowed to post on the forums about PVP unless you have video proof that you can kill bad players in outnumbered fights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRAX-bMSFJM

Your entire video proves absolutely nothing about whether or not WOE ie balanced or not. You didn't even keep full uptime on it and mostly killed them with other skills.

Do yourself a favor, and step into some high MMR BGs for an evening. Let's see how you feel when full premades stacked with magwardens casting frost wall on you, keeping you permanently rooted and snared in place. Even if you run forward momentum it is a complete utter abomination of balance. The moment you remove the snare/root you can fire 2 attacks and then you are either stunned, snared or rooted again. And that is for stamina classes who are supposed to have superior mobility over mag classes. How anyone with a sane mind can call this balanced is beyond me.

jcm2606

Koensol wrote: »

How anyone with a sane mind can call this balanced is beyond me.

Simple, they don't know how to or can't stand playing without crutches.

Kadoin

jcm2606 wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

How anyone with a sane mind can call this balanced is beyond me.

Simple, they don't know how to or can't stand playing without crutches.

I honestly don't care if snares are nerfed, but if so, they should not leave all the tools balltards get to abuse alone like EG and pretend that's balanced. They should also look at rebalancing magicka specs across the board since everything they've done in the past 2 years have been nothing but nerfs! Even the recent racial changes are actually NERFS to magicka specs.

If they gonna nerf one, I want it all nerfed including bleeds @ once. No one should keep their crutch.

jcm2606

Kadoin wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

How anyone with a sane mind can call this balanced is beyond me.

Simple, they don't know how to or can't stand playing without crutches.

I honestly don't care if snares are nerfed, but if so, they should not leave all the tools balltards get to abuse alone like EG and pretend that's balanced. They should also look at rebalancing magicka specs across the board since everything they've done in the past 2 years have been nothing but nerfs! Even the recent racial changes are actually NERFS to magicka specs.

If they gonna nerf one, I want it all nerfed including bleeds @ once. No one should keep their crutch.

I agree, but the problem is, snares are a much larger issues than those right now.

• Earthgore can save an entire group from certain death, but it then goes on cooldown for 35 seconds, giving you a window to get them back down.
• Bleeds can tear through your physical resist, but they can be offset with heavy healing.
• Magicka specs do have big issues (although, in my opinion, that doesn't mean they aren't strong, the only spec I can legitimately say is suffering right now is magblade, maybe magsorc), but they can be made to work, and work well depending on the class and build.

Snares are cheap to cast and incredibly powerful, often at times more than halving your movement speed, and yet they have virtually no viable counterplay.

• The direct counter to them, simply moving faster, actually makes them worse since they apply multiplicatively, meaning their strength increases as your movement speed increases.
• The hard counters to them, snare removal and immunity, are both ineffective because of the cost and duration when compared to the snares themselves, and how prevalent they are.
• Dodging is an utter joke of a counter, coming in at 2900 stamina in 7 medium, with the cost increasing each time.
• Sets are as much of a counter to them as purge is to negative effects, ie, not much of a counter.

I'm a magDK who doesn't have much mobility, and even I think snares are utter cancer as they are now. CC in general is arguably one of the strongest forms of defense this game has to offer, because not only does it give you absolute control over the fight, but it makes it exponentially harder for your enemy to fight back. Strong CC can exist, yes, but they need to be counterbalanced by either being expensive, single target, using a very small radius, and, most importantly, they need to be a deliberate choice on the part of the caster.

30-40% snares tied to single target offensive abilities (all direct damage Ardent Flame abilities, Cripple, Rending Slashes) are way too damn strong for how little commitment they need.

60-70% snares tied to moderate to large AOE's (WoE, Caltrops especially) are broken, because they effectively act as constant AOE roots over a set duration whenever targets are in the AOE, and they're insanely cheap while offering so. Caltrops is doubly broken because it's a max range ability.

More or less completely denying your opponent movement is just as strong as stunning them, because it gives you the ability to control whichever direction the fight goes in. Fast builds can't rely on their speed and mobility to mitigate damage, tanky builds can't rely on positioning to direct the fight in their favour, and if things get too hot, you can always back off and have the upper hand when your opponent comes chasing.

All the while they're insanely cheap and prevalent, so if one of the counters is used or they simply move out of the AOE, oh well, just cast another, maybe wait a second or two for the 4-second-at-most immunity to wear off.

That is why snares desperately need to be addressed.

MajBludd

@MalagenR so, you are bragging about making people quit a game. How is that not elitist at its worst?
So you enjoy helping kill a games population because you are l33t. The. You accuse others of the same thing. You are the thing you are claoming the other poster is as well. Hypocrite much?

technohic

Its absolutely ridiculous. Either need longer recourse times or they need to be done in a way where minor and major expedition balances it out rather than snares pretty much trumping all movement. And if anything has above 30% snare, it should be changed. Another option is add more abilities that passively removes snares as easy as they can be applied

frostz417

MalagenR wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

Ritual needs its snare removed. Gapclosers need to be reworked to not have a snare that bypasses every immunity in the game. Immobilize poisons, which were supposedly fixed, still ignore immunity and need to be removed. Shuffle needs an immunity duration buff up to 5 seconds. I'd also drop the mitigation on major evasion down by 5%, because it was given to medium as a solution for its shortcomings, which were mobility and NOT mitigation. Speed potions should be buffed up to 30s duration, as they were compared to vitality potions to justify the nerf which is a joke. All short duration expedition sources (quick cloak, bow dodge, double take, etc) should be 6-7s duration expedition. Immobilizations should have an associated short duration immunity granted when breaking them via dodge, purify, etc.

All of these are small things that would go a long way to countering the snare meta. Its laughable how slow you move in open world right now, and anyone defending the amount of snares and roots is simply fighting xv1, or while outnumbering their opponents.

What a crock, I run a snare build that is incredibly unique and I 1vX with it in open world. I just clipped a video last night dropping 3 810 zerglings with it. When I post the video will you edit your post?

I'm sorry, did you just claim a 1v3 versus 3 "zerglings" as an example of why snares are okay?

You're a joke. I've got between 300 and 3,500 hours of pvp experience on 8/10 classes in this game. Throughout the history of eso, there have been some absolutely terrible metas. We've had double proc metas, heavy armor god tier metas, brainless s2w metas, unkillable shield stacking metas, glyph cheese metas, etc. The current "snare meta" is far more detrimental to solo and outnumbered play than ANY of the aforementioned trends. I really don't care how effective your "unique snare build" is, the fact is this: those snares and roots become exponentially more effective in securing a kill when you outnumber your opponent. I'd love for you to upload your "1v3 against cap cp zerglings" so I can watch it and absolutely roast the life out of you. Please make my day.

It's good I exposed your elitism for all to see. I've been playing MMO's since Lineage2 Open Beta. You want to cry about meta on the forums? I'd have PK'd you off the server in a game like that, be thankful MMO gods created games that are easy for folks like you to play, where you can talk tough on forums and don't have to pay for it in game so badly you're forced to quit or reroll and make new friends bud.

I don't feel bad that snares have killed your ability to grief stupid zerglings. If you fail to kill stupid zerglings that's your problem. Not the forums and not anyone else. Lots of us are still doing it just fine.

Elitism and more experience than most are two different things. I'm glad that you think coming from a "MMO heritage" grants you some type of deeper insight into the issues of THIS MMO, but the fact is it simply does not. Ive put in the time on 8 classes, I've got extensive footage that is publicly viewable to show for it. I don't need to "act tough" on the forums, I simply carry my experience over with me when discussing the game. Now, I'd like to understand a few things from YOUR perspective.

First, let's see this video of your gameplay. I'd love to get an idea of what your "1vx snare build" is capable of. You said you'd post it, so follow through.

Second, you claim that there are counters to snares present in the game already, citing sets specifically. Let's hear which sets you're referring to and in what manner they counter snares. While you're at it, let me know what counters the .375s immunity ignoring snare that applies every time a gap closer is used on you

Third, let's hear your justification that the only problematic snare in the game is permafrost. I agree that this ult shouldn't have a snare, but I'd love to hear why you think that it's the only snare which is problematic currently.

Oh god the irony, bro in your signature you make it a point to call out your a small scaler and solo player. I don't even need to read the elitism dripping off your posts, it's in your signature for all of us to see. You think you're like a god tier player because you make videos and 1vX noobs? I've been 1vX'ing noobs since I started playing MMO's, it's literally the easiest thing to do in PVP,

"Hey look, I can kite these players for 10 minutes and they can't kill me, guess I should turn around and smash them because they are obviously noobs" -->> you think this behavior makes you special?

So, in my case, where I can literally pull up examples of my clans / guilds making people quit, naming forts after us in lewd names because of how bad we run game on them, have isk effiency ratio that exceeds 90%, are all worth nothing because they weren't in ESO?

You're delusional. Playing PVP games for 15+ years at the highest level made it real easy for me to see you were an elitist. It also makes me super excited to watch you continue to post in this thread after I leave with all your whining.

Wait. 1vX’ing is the easiest thing to do? Lmfao someone delete this man’s forum account

ecru

Rikumaru wrote: »

Shuffle needs it's snare immunity buffed to like 6 seconds and magicka to get a snare removal. Maybe attach it to the psjjic skill line on acceleration or something. Major expedition skills should be buffed across the board because they all suck for getting major expedition. 4 seconds just doesn't cut it when it's a casted ability.

As for snares, templar cleanse shouldn't have an AOE snare rather it should give either minor expedition while within the field to the templar or maybe all allies inside it. Heroic slash should be a 30% snare because a 60% snare attached to a spammable is super dumb. Wall of frost or whatever it's called in this game shouldn't give free roots while inside it either.

This, plus the ridiculous 70% snare on jabs should be reduced to at least 30%, or removed entirely. Snares on class spammables should not be a thing at all in ESO, or any other mmo.

roarr wrote: »

It cant be in psyjic. There might be people who do not have summerset. Cant be P2W.

Maybe add some diminishing returns to snares?

This is the right way to approach the issue. Diminishing returns on snares, immunity timers, and straight up removal of snares from abilities that arbitrarily snare people in a huge radius.. like three templar abilities.

brandonv516

Liam12548 wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Don't mind Liam, he's a special kind of
---removed for profanity---

Man, ever since that 510-0-0 TDM I had against you, you've commented on every forum thread I'm in and sent me messages after every BG game you match me in.. I think you're a little obsessed.

I'd love to hear what you've got to say about snares though, skill spammer!

I have no problem with snares because all I play is some form of a cheese-cloaked Nightblade that doesn't have to deal with them.

BlackMadara

Snares are strong, yes, but people wanting to reduce some to ridiculous low levels and wanting to increase the time of snare immunity again are rather bias

Snares are overly prevalent. There is no real reason for it to be on temp purge, low slash, twin slashes, for examples. There are further culprits to having a snare randomly tacked on. Temp jabs snare makes sense to set up more jabs

The DK passive snare at 30% is strong but needed as the "control class," and has seen nerfs. Perhaps snares like these could be reduced, but it should come out to be that it essentially cancels out major expo imo.

Ice WoE lasts 8 seconds and is a 60% snare while in the AoE. Spamming the skill isn't cheap and in order to consistently get root procs, one must build for it. Coordination of this skill makes it op, but that's the case for a lot of strategies in general.

I believe caltrops is rather balanced for its intended use. Expensive, large area, strong initial snare, mild snare afterwards. Snares should be balanced as such imo.

Snare immunity is long enough to remove oneself from AoEs and to reposition, made easier with enhanced speed. I believe this is balanced. You shouldn't be able to have a long term, passive snare immunity. If the meta for high mmr BGs are coordinated ice WoE spam, your group should devise a way to counter that strategy.

All that said, I agree that snares should be looked at, less common, less intense, and more dedicated. They should not be killed though, and snare immunity should not be made more common.

MalagenR

Koensol wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Recent 1v3 I referenced in my above post. Note, the build should run tripots but I've been working a lot lately and don't feel like farming IC so I've been running cheap, I'd be a lot less restricted and probably would have ended the fight much faster if I had Major Intellect up, on this build it pushes my Mag Recovery up to 2700. I run one shield. I don't stack resists. You're on your own figuring out the rest.

FYI - when I watch myself play I still just think this is "okay" I've never recorded and watched myself play before, it's incredibly weird. But apparently you're not allowed to post on the forums about PVP unless you have video proof that you can kill bad players in outnumbered fights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRAX-bMSFJM

Your entire video proves absolutely nothing about whether or not WOE ie balanced or not. You didn't even keep full uptime on it and mostly killed them with other skills.

Do yourself a favor, and step into some high MMR BGs for an evening. Let's see how you feel when full premades stacked with magwardens casting frost wall on you, keeping you permanently rooted and snared in place. Even if you run forward momentum it is a complete utter abomination of balance. The moment you remove the snare/root you can fire 2 attacks and then you are either stunned, snared or rooted again. And that is for stamina classes who are supposed to have superior mobility over mag classes. How anyone with a sane mind can call this balanced is beyond me.

I have videos of me beating these groups. Frost WOE isn't used for what you'r referring to in this video. It's all situational. In a 1vX fight it's used for controlling distance. If you pay attention you'll notice how I use it for controlling space. It's not used for killing, it's used for debuffing, creating space, and forcing stamina players to use more stamina than they are used to because they are constantly rooted.

MalagenR

MajBludd wrote: »

@MalagenR so, you are bragging about making people quit a game. How is that not elitist at its worst?
So you enjoy helping kill a games population because you are l33t. The. You accuse others of the same thing. You are the thing you are claoming the other poster is as well. Hypocrite much?

Hey MajBludd. I totally understand where you're coming from with this. What you need to understand is something from my perspective. This was how games of the past, especially Korean PVP MMOs, where gaming was already an E Sport in their country 15 years ago, were played. I'm not proud that I got sucked into playing a grindy MMO 12 hours a day to make 4% experience points - which I then had to put on the line with 3-4 hours of PVP just to be able to grind in the best spot with my squad where a potential death costs us 2% of our XP. This type of atmosphere obviously is going to create incredibly elitist behavior.

My experience with this behavior, is what allows me to see it on the forums so easily for what it is. I hope you see where I'm coming from now and don't mistake me for thinking that I actually endorse this behavior now. But, on the flip side, I also don't endorse how soft the communities have become.

Like I see people who lose a 2v4 complain about being zerged down. Being zerged down is 1:3 odds. This is based on Starcraft - 3 lings for 1 zealot. 2 lings and the zealot wins.

Hopefully you see the purpose of me calling this behavior out now. I don't think that pushing players away from the game is the right thing to do in PVP. I also don't think that allowing them to cry about everything that kills them on the forums should be allowed. It sours the community to much.

Koensol

MalagenR wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Recent 1v3 I referenced in my above post. Note, the build should run tripots but I've been working a lot lately and don't feel like farming IC so I've been running cheap, I'd be a lot less restricted and probably would have ended the fight much faster if I had Major Intellect up, on this build it pushes my Mag Recovery up to 2700. I run one shield. I don't stack resists. You're on your own figuring out the rest.

FYI - when I watch myself play I still just think this is "okay" I've never recorded and watched myself play before, it's incredibly weird. But apparently you're not allowed to post on the forums about PVP unless you have video proof that you can kill bad players in outnumbered fights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRAX-bMSFJM

Your entire video proves absolutely nothing about whether or not WOE ie balanced or not. You didn't even keep full uptime on it and mostly killed them with other skills.

Do yourself a favor, and step into some high MMR BGs for an evening. Let's see how you feel when full premades stacked with magwardens casting frost wall on you, keeping you permanently rooted and snared in place. Even if you run forward momentum it is a complete utter abomination of balance. The moment you remove the snare/root you can fire 2 attacks and then you are either stunned, snared or rooted again. And that is for stamina classes who are supposed to have superior mobility over mag classes. How anyone with a sane mind can call this balanced is beyond me.

I have videos of me beating these groups. Frost WOE isn't used for what you'r referring to in this video. It's all situational. In a 1vX fight it's used for controlling distance. If you pay attention you'll notice how I use it for controlling space. It's not used for killing, it's used for debuffing, creating space, and forcing stamina players to use more stamina than they are used to because they are constantly rooted.

I don't care what you did in 1vx or how you used the skill. It is all but irrelevant, since this isn't even where the skill is considered OP. Like I said, take a look at small group gameplay such as BGs. The skill is a total joke in these situations and will completely, and consecutively lock players down untill the entire fight becomes a slugfest. It is the litteral definition of frustrating gameplay. Not fun, and not balanced even slightly.

MalagenR

Koensol wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Recent 1v3 I referenced in my above post. Note, the build should run tripots but I've been working a lot lately and don't feel like farming IC so I've been running cheap, I'd be a lot less restricted and probably would have ended the fight much faster if I had Major Intellect up, on this build it pushes my Mag Recovery up to 2700. I run one shield. I don't stack resists. You're on your own figuring out the rest.

FYI - when I watch myself play I still just think this is "okay" I've never recorded and watched myself play before, it's incredibly weird. But apparently you're not allowed to post on the forums about PVP unless you have video proof that you can kill bad players in outnumbered fights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRAX-bMSFJM

Your entire video proves absolutely nothing about whether or not WOE ie balanced or not. You didn't even keep full uptime on it and mostly killed them with other skills.

Do yourself a favor, and step into some high MMR BGs for an evening. Let's see how you feel when full premades stacked with magwardens casting frost wall on you, keeping you permanently rooted and snared in place. Even if you run forward momentum it is a complete utter abomination of balance. The moment you remove the snare/root you can fire 2 attacks and then you are either stunned, snared or rooted again. And that is for stamina classes who are supposed to have superior mobility over mag classes. How anyone with a sane mind can call this balanced is beyond me.

I have videos of me beating these groups. Frost WOE isn't used for what you'r referring to in this video. It's all situational. In a 1vX fight it's used for controlling distance. If you pay attention you'll notice how I use it for controlling space. It's not used for killing, it's used for debuffing, creating space, and forcing stamina players to use more stamina than they are used to because they are constantly rooted.

I don't care what you did in 1vx or how you used the skill. It is all but irrelevant, since this isn't even where the skill is considered OP. Like I said, take a look at small group gameplay such as BGs. The skill is a total joke in these situations and will completely, and consecutively lock players down untill the entire fight becomes a slugfest. It is the litteral definition of frustrating gameplay. Not fun, and not balanced even slightly.

Or you could stop running face first into AOE roots and learn to flank?

MalagenR

BlackMadara wrote: »

Snares are strong, yes, but people wanting to reduce some to ridiculous low levels and wanting to increase the time of snare immunity again are rather bias

Snares are overly prevalent. There is no real reason for it to be on temp purge, low slash, twin slashes, for examples. There are further culprits to having a snare randomly tacked on. Temp jabs snare makes sense to set up more jabs

The DK passive snare at 30% is strong but needed as the "control class," and has seen nerfs. Perhaps snares like these could be reduced, but it should come out to be that it essentially cancels out major expo imo.

Ice WoE lasts 8 seconds and is a 60% snare while in the AoE. Spamming the skill isn't cheap and in order to consistently get root procs, one must build for it. Coordination of this skill makes it op, but that's the case for a lot of strategies in general.

I believe caltrops is rather balanced for its intended use. Expensive, large area, strong initial snare, mild snare afterwards. Snares should be balanced as such imo.

Snare immunity is long enough to remove oneself from AoEs and to reposition, made easier with enhanced speed. I believe this is balanced. You shouldn't be able to have a long term, passive snare immunity. If the meta for high mmr BGs are coordinated ice WoE spam, your group should devise a way to counter that strategy.

All that said, I agree that snares should be looked at, less common, less intense, and more dedicated. They should not be killed though, and snare immunity should not be made more common.

Well said.

Rikumaru

MalagenR wrote: »

To directly argue against this. The snare meta is not a result of the nerf to speed. It's actually a mix of the nerf to speed + the nerf to shields.

notice how it's majority stam players complaining about snares and it's majority mag classes running them?

??????????????????????????????????????????????????
The snare meta existed for everything but stamina back pre-murkmire. And you talk about how the majority of stam players complain about snares, WHAT? I've completely given up trying to play magblade solo openworld on sotha due to a combination of snares and bleeds and just have gone stamblade. Magicka openworld if you aren't a magicka sorc is so god damned bad right now due to snares. I don't know what world you are living in but it clearly isn't the same one as mine.

MalagenR wrote: »

Shuffle and FW Momentum are just as expensive as class based roots. It seems to me that stamina players want to have their cake and eat it too.

Class based roots aren't the problem. It's the absurd snares attached to skills which shouldn't even snare in the first place. Also vs said snares, in what world is shuffle cheaper than them? 2.5s immunity for a high cost stamina skill is a joke.

MalagenR wrote: »

If you nerf snares, you'll have to readjust mag class defense. As of right now, we cannot run double sustain with active defense in dodge rolling the way we were in the past because shields are simply to weak to survive stam class burst combinations.

Do you actually play solo like you've been saying in this thread? Because if you have, as a magicka build snares are literally your number 1 weakness. Readjust mag class defense? More like it buffs magicka classes open world, which they need. Switch to stamina classes and it's like night and day between the two (apart from mag sorc) simply because of the mobility.

MalagenR wrote: »

I seriously believe that if you took the snare off of permafrost, or if you took the major protection off of it, there would be a lot less complaining.

Why should permafrost have it's snare removed out of all things? It's a 200 cost ICE ULTIMATE. What the heck????

ecru wrote: »

This, plus the ridiculous 70% snare on jabs should be reduced to at least 30%, or removed entirely. Snares on class spammables should not be a thing at all in ESO, or any other mmo.

I kinda disagree with the snare being removed on jabs. It's only 2 seconds and you have to land the final hit for the snare to take place. Jabs needs it since it would be quite alot more difficult to land without it, so it's a skill which deserves it. Imo it should apply to all players hit by the final hit though. It's one of the few skills which these absurd snares makes sense on I feel.

MalagenR

Rikumaru wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

To directly argue against this. The snare meta is not a result of the nerf to speed. It's actually a mix of the nerf to speed + the nerf to shields.

notice how it's majority stam players complaining about snares and it's majority mag classes running them?

??????????????????????????????????????????????????
The snare meta existed for everything but stamina back pre-murkmire. And you talk about how the majority of stam players complain about snares, WHAT? I've completely given up trying to play magblade solo openworld on sotha due to a combination of snares and bleeds and just have gone stamblade. Magicka openworld if you aren't a magicka sorc is so god damned bad right now due to snares. I don't know what world you are living in but it clearly isn't the same one as mine.

MalagenR wrote: »

Shuffle and FW Momentum are just as expensive as class based roots. It seems to me that stamina players want to have their cake and eat it too.

Class based roots aren't the problem. It's the absurd snares attached to skills which shouldn't even snare in the first place. Also vs said snares, in what world is shuffle cheaper than them? 2.5s immunity for a high cost stamina skill is a joke.

MalagenR wrote: »

If you nerf snares, you'll have to readjust mag class defense. As of right now, we cannot run double sustain with active defense in dodge rolling the way we were in the past because shields are simply to weak to survive stam class burst combinations.

Do you actually play solo like you've been saying in this thread? Because if you have, as a magicka build snares are literally your number 1 weakness. Readjust mag class defense? More like it buffs magicka classes open world, which they need. Switch to stamina classes and it's like night and day between the two (apart from mag sorc) simply because of the mobility.

MalagenR wrote: »

I seriously believe that if you took the snare off of permafrost, or if you took the major protection off of it, there would be a lot less complaining.

Why should permafrost have it's snare removed out of all things? It's a 200 cost ICE ULTIMATE. What the heck????

ecru wrote: »

This, plus the ridiculous 70% snare on jabs should be reduced to at least 30%, or removed entirely. Snares on class spammables should not be a thing at all in ESO, or any other mmo.

I kinda disagree with the snare being removed on jabs. It's only 2 seconds and you have to land the final hit for the snare to take place. Jabs needs it since it would be quite alot more difficult to land without it, so it's a skill which deserves it. Imo it should apply to all players hit by the final hit though. It's one of the few skills which these absurd snares makes sense on I feel.

I have literally hours worth of my solo footage now because of people like you on the forums. I absolutely do solo, I've posted a solo video in this forum post of me using Frost WOE for distance control and exactly what I've described above.

In fact, in multiple cases in that video you will see that I streak through an animation cancelled Frost WOE - creating distance between myself and my enemy, potentially rooting / slowing them if they choose to chase me through it, which most do because they are stamina and aren't used to having to re-position themselves in open world besides running around rocks.

I'm not sure how to take someone serious that is playing a cloak class being mad about snares. Snares have literally, in every PVP game since MMO's were a thing, been the bane of stealth classes, how else do you expect us to *** stop you from resetting the fight constantly?

You have the most overpowered PVP strength in any PVP game, the ability to dictate when and where you fight at will, stop complaining about snares.

Rikumaru

MalagenR wrote: »

I'm not sure how to take someone serious that is playing a cloak class being mad about snares. Snares have literally, in every PVP game since MMO's were a thing, been the bane of stealth classes, how else do you expect us to *** stop you from resetting the fight constantly?

You have the most overpowered PVP strength in any PVP game, the ability to dictate when and where you fight at will, stop complaining about snares.

Erm, I've played all classes apart from magplar. Also I advocate for a cloak nerf too since you shouldn't be able to spam that skill. But this thread is about snares, not cloak.

MalagenR

Rikumaru wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

I'm not sure how to take someone serious that is playing a cloak class being mad about snares. Snares have literally, in every PVP game since MMO's were a thing, been the bane of stealth classes, how else do you expect us to *** stop you from resetting the fight constantly?

You have the most overpowered PVP strength in any PVP game, the ability to dictate when and where you fight at will, stop complaining about snares.

Erm, I've played all classes apart from magplar. Also I advocate for a cloak nerf too since you shouldn't be able to spam that skill. But this thread is about snares, not cloak.

But it's relevant because all of these things are inter-connected. Mag shield nerf, speed nerf, Magwardens & super tanky Permafrost, frost staff changes in general, resource changes in Morrowind, all of these things are connected to each other, so when you duck the comment with some BS about how this is a thread about snares and not cloak after you cry about dying to snares as a Magblade I sit here and laugh, because you're totally full of it.

Alucardo

Rikumaru wrote: »

Heroic slash should be a 30% snare because a 60% snare attached to a spammable is super dumb. Wall of frost or whatever it's called in this game shouldn't give free roots while inside it either.

I could actually lick your face because of these two comments.

Minno

Current:
highest typical snare = 60% (40% more spamable)
Highest typical speed stack = 25%+30% sprint = 55% (65% with minor)

Problem:
snares make speed useless to stack. While important for melee classes, makes combat system feel like crap. Sprint can be abused and excessively drain stamina for little to no benefit. Mag builds see no benefit with zero escape tool.

Proposed, full rework:
Major/minor snare = 40+10= 50%. Snare can drain Sprint pool.
Major/minor speed = 40+10 = 50%.
Sprint: separate pool (like horse). Get 25% speed while sprinting. Can ignore snares, but it drains pool faster if you have a snare and have no Sprint protection. Other sprint speed boosts changed to give better Sprint pool protection.

Gap closers:
Currently have annoying snare mechanic but has no real combat effective mechanics. Requires unavoidable snare but not really slotable in meta applications. Requires targets.

Proposed gap closers:
All gap closers work similar to streak in that they no longer require a Target. Templar gets a spear ground target gap closer, nightblade gets a teleport that doesn't need shade, etc. Rebalance to give defense or offense to spells replaced (nightblade ambush, etc).

Melee attacks:
Generally are too low for thisnew system. Increase all melee attacks by 3 meters. .

Range:
Too high DMG. Create 3 tier ranged attacks, short, medium, long. Drop all long ranged DMG by 25% but add debuffs strength. Med range has higher DMG than long but lesser debuff. Short has the most DMG but almost no debuff potential. Idea is to give the most DMG to melee, who take the most punishment while ranged can use escape mechanics likestreak to reposition.

And that's my idea. Sadly you either hate snare or enjoy it because it let's you catch up to players that stack speed. There's no middle ground, which i believe all classes should get access to mobilty.

Edit:
Melee based classes and have access to immobilze if you wanta target to stay still. And snare reduction mechanics should apply to immobilze now (warden passive, light armor, etc).

ecru

roarr wrote: »

It cant be in psyjic. There might be people who do not have summerset. Cant be P2W.

Maybe add some diminishing returns to snares?

MalagenR wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Recent 1v3 I referenced in my above post. Note, the build should run tripots but I've been working a lot lately and don't feel like farming IC so I've been running cheap, I'd be a lot less restricted and probably would have ended the fight much faster if I had Major Intellect up, on this build it pushes my Mag Recovery up to 2700. I run one shield. I don't stack resists. You're on your own figuring out the rest.

FYI - when I watch myself play I still just think this is "okay" I've never recorded and watched myself play before, it's incredibly weird. But apparently you're not allowed to post on the forums about PVP unless you have video proof that you can kill bad players in outnumbered fights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRAX-bMSFJM

Your entire video proves absolutely nothing about whether or not WOE ie balanced or not. You didn't even keep full uptime on it and mostly killed them with other skills.

Do yourself a favor, and step into some high MMR BGs for an evening. Let's see how you feel when full premades stacked with magwardens casting frost wall on you, keeping you permanently rooted and snared in place. Even if you run forward momentum it is a complete utter abomination of balance. The moment you remove the snare/root you can fire 2 attacks and then you are either stunned, snared or rooted again. And that is for stamina classes who are supposed to have superior mobility over mag classes. How anyone with a sane mind can call this balanced is beyond me.

I have videos of me beating these groups. Frost WOE isn't used for what you'r referring to in this video. It's all situational. In a 1vX fight it's used for controlling distance. If you pay attention you'll notice how I use it for controlling space. It's not used for killing, it's used for debuffing, creating space, and forcing stamina players to use more stamina than they are used to because they are constantly rooted.

I don't care what you did in 1vx or how you used the skill. It is all but irrelevant, since this isn't even where the skill is considered OP. Like I said, take a look at small group gameplay such as BGs. The skill is a total joke in these situations and will completely, and consecutively lock players down untill the entire fight becomes a slugfest. It is the litteral definition of frustrating gameplay. Not fun, and not balanced even slightly.

Or you could stop running face first into AOE roots and learn to flank?

Yeah why don't you upload a video of how you "flank" in a BG as melee inside of two frost blockades and a permafrost.

Rikumaru wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

To directly argue against this. The snare meta is not a result of the nerf to speed. It's actually a mix of the nerf to speed + the nerf to shields.

notice how it's majority stam players complaining about snares and it's majority mag classes running them?

??????????????????????????????????????????????????
The snare meta existed for everything but stamina back pre-murkmire. And you talk about how the majority of stam players complain about snares, WHAT? I've completely given up trying to play magblade solo openworld on sotha due to a combination of snares and bleeds and just have gone stamblade. Magicka openworld if you aren't a magicka sorc is so god damned bad right now due to snares. I don't know what world you are living in but it clearly isn't the same one as mine.

MalagenR wrote: »

Shuffle and FW Momentum are just as expensive as class based roots. It seems to me that stamina players want to have their cake and eat it too.

Class based roots aren't the problem. It's the absurd snares attached to skills which shouldn't even snare in the first place. Also vs said snares, in what world is shuffle cheaper than them? 2.5s immunity for a high cost stamina skill is a joke.

MalagenR wrote: »

If you nerf snares, you'll have to readjust mag class defense. As of right now, we cannot run double sustain with active defense in dodge rolling the way we were in the past because shields are simply to weak to survive stam class burst combinations.

Do you actually play solo like you've been saying in this thread? Because if you have, as a magicka build snares are literally your number 1 weakness. Readjust mag class defense? More like it buffs magicka classes open world, which they need. Switch to stamina classes and it's like night and day between the two (apart from mag sorc) simply because of the mobility.

MalagenR wrote: »

I seriously believe that if you took the snare off of permafrost, or if you took the major protection off of it, there would be a lot less complaining.

Why should permafrost have it's snare removed out of all things? It's a 200 cost ICE ULTIMATE. What the heck????

ecru wrote: »

This, plus the ridiculous 70% snare on jabs should be reduced to at least 30%, or removed entirely. Snares on class spammables should not be a thing at all in ESO, or any other mmo.

I kinda disagree with the snare being removed on jabs. It's only 2 seconds and you have to land the final hit for the snare to take place. Jabs needs it since it would be quite alot more difficult to land without it, so it's a skill which deserves it. Imo it should apply to all players hit by the final hit though. It's one of the few skills which these absurd snares makes sense on I feel.

Permafrost should have it's snare removed because it already does a whole lot of damage and stuns. Jabs shouldn't have a 70% snare which causes it to effectively become a root attached to a class spammable. Locking someone down by jabs so they can't get away is one of the most braindead things to do, you barely have to target anyone, and templar already has access to some of the most annoying ground aoe snares in the game already.

BlackMadara wrote: »

Temp jabs snare makes sense to set up more jabs

If you need a 70% snare to allow yourself to continue to use a spammable ability, you probably don't deserve to be in melee range in the first place.

Snare immunity is long enough to remove oneself from AoEs and to reposition, made easier with enhanced speed. I believe this is balanced. You shouldn't be able to have a long term, passive snare immunity. If the meta for high mmr BGs are coordinated ice WoE spam, your group should devise a way to counter that strategy.

Snare immunity? What snare immunity? Are you sure we're playing the same game?

ecru

edit: double post