ESO PVE Builds Diversity

Lord_Eomer

DPS, Healer and Tank using same sets for Years. ZOS combat team clearly lacking delivering competitive Sets.

Even stopped checking Streams builds including @Alcast and @Woeler, its always same builds, no diversity?

I even stop farming new sets or doing new contents for sets. Every DLC brings lot of garbage sets including useless Monster sets.

I feel bad for ZOS while they are delivering excellent DLC but with mostly poor sets (this even affects content replay value)

Chilly-McFreeze

And the solution would be what? Bringing out new BiS every Patch? Relequen, a set I think is more than "competitive", was introduced with the latest Chapter.

However, what's it worth? Will anyone feel better after they grinded the new set for a week or two? If they are just in it for the latest set grind, won't they stop doing that content once they've got what they need?

E: there will always be a mathematical best, a meta. So no matter how close other sets are, if set X is 2% stronger, BiS builds will always flock to that without diversity. Doesn't stop you from running 95% of the content with your own builds.

Masel

People just need to stop only wearing BiS for dummy humps and stack and burn bosses and posting builds that use them. That's why relequen is used on every dummy parse you see, just cause its best there doesnt mean its best in dungeons/raids.

I've never used relequen in a raid myself and i dont really intend to, cause group support in form of WM for example is just better on everything that is not a dummy hump or a boss that is equivalent to that.

If you want to squeeze out every little tiny bit of score at the end, then yes, on some bosses you need to use relequen or siroria. In any other case, you have all the diversity you want. It depends on a lot of factors and entirely on the environment.

Magicka Builds can use all kinds of sets in endgame: sorrow, bsw, acuity, asylum staff+willpower, siroria, master architect etc.
Stamina Builds can also use different sets: war machine, VO, TFS, relequen, Tzogvin, Veiled Heritance, Advancing Yokeda.

John_Falstaff

Years? Relequen, Siroria, Olorime: introduced in Summerset, less than a year ago. Spell Strategist: introduced in Murkmire, a few months ago. Wrathstone brought Stonekeeper that I think will find great appreciation with tanks and Symphony of Blades that would be very interesting on healers in 4-mans. Tzogvin's Warband promises to be a good drop-in replacement for AY and may pull ahead of it in a lot of situations (you can't have universal meta, there are places where Relequen or Siroria won't do much good). Deadly Strike (not new, but freshly reworked) may end up a meta for stamDKs.

Sure, the more the merrier, but I think it's not a bad result.

CultOfMMO

Masel wrote: »

People just need to stop only wearing BiS for dummy humps and posting builds that use them. That's why relequen is used on every dummy parse you see, just cause its best there doesnt mean its best in dungeons/raids.

I've never used relequen in a raid myself and i dont really intend to, cause group support in form of WM for exampel is just better on everything that is not a dummy hump or a boss that is equivalent to that.

So what do you wear in trials? because
1. You only need 3 WM in any group, other dps can pair a crit set like AY to go with relequen
2. Even if you're in WM you can still wear relequen 9 times out of 10, since outside of mini trials, there's only 2 boss fights I can think of that relequen is subpar due to frequent target switching and/or short burst phases

so are you advocating that w/e you're wearing is actually better in trials? because you have zero boss fight videos on your channel to back that up, whereas the people pushing for "rele dummy cheese" builds have used it in trials and produced top end parses, pushing them AND their team to world record scores. So where are your personal best parses? And if you claim WM is always better for group support, where are your trial scores?

Masel

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But okay, if you want them, my best trial scores so far on MoL, AS+2, CR+3 and BRP:



Note that this was a 32 Minute run, so i also have speed run already and we're progressing towards unchained right now.










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ccfeeling

From my point of view , I suggest that ZOS could consider modify the penetration system , just use one penetration

There are too many limitation to play theory crafting .

Faulgor

It's usually just a few sets that seem to be outshining everything else, atm mainly Releqen, Siroria, Spell Strategist, etc - although all of those have a pretty narrow application for single target and dummy parses. After those top sets, there's actually quite some variety in possible viable sets.

However, I'm still upset about the nerf to NMG and Sunderflame.

Masel

Faulgor wrote: »

It's usually just a few sets that seem to be outshining everything else, atm mainly Releqen, Siroria, Spell Strategist, etc - although all of those have a pretty narrow application for single target and dummy parses. After those top sets, there's actually quite some variety in possible viable sets.

However, I'm still upset about the nerf to NMG and Sunderflame.

So am I. The reason was that stamina builds were reaching higher numbers compared to magicka builds just because they could reach the Pen cap easily with these sets available. While thta may be true, these sets allowed a few classes and spec to actually be taken into raids (stamina DK + Stamsorc), simply because Sunderlame synergised with he playstyle and it was the best scenario to have one of these to provide it.

CultOfMMO

LiquidPony wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Joker99 wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

CultOfMMO wrote: »

@Masel

Just fyi you posted a Symbolic vAS HM score that I know for certain you were not a part of, and that neither the vCR nor vMoL score show up on esoraiding or esoleaderboards

Still wanna see your non-relequen record breaking rakkhat parse though, hope learning Photoshop is easier than being half decent at ESO

At this point I gotta wonder, what the hell is wrong with you guys?

You're part of no known guild or group on EU, you're posting scores of other guilds that you have nothing to do with, get called out for it, and at the end you are asking that?

I don’t really care about this whole argument, since I stopped PVEing a long time ago... However, I find it amusing that you guys are raging at masel for posting “scores of other guilds” when he clearly was just posting a screen cap of the leaderboard as a whole, so you can see his best score vs the top scores on the leaderboard. He is quite obviously not pretending to be any of the people at the top of the list.

The amount of testosterone in this thread is...

@Aurielle I mean I'm not trying to wade into this honestly, because I have no idea how accurate the various leaderboard archive sites actually are, and people play under multiple account names across multiple servers ... but I think the people involved here understand what you're saying and the point they're making is that they can't find the scores that are listed under "Best Score". For instance the 105908 in vAS ... that score appears exactly one time in the leaderboard archives:



And just to clarify: I'm not accusing anyone of anything, just here for the lols.

They're not always accurate, BRP is verifiable, 3/4 scores missing is sketchy af but by no means impossible.

Still that is pretty irrelevant, even if the other 3 were legit, he posted a Symbolic vAS HM run score that he wasn't in

Player @names are shown in raid frame, should correspond to the list from esoraiding

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/390840459?t=13m21s

TPishek

desertfox183 told me that the only bis stamblade was a dead stamblade

LiquidPony

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For a minute, I felt bad and I thought I'd comment and actually discuss OP's topic ... but it's a dead horse and mostly incorrect anyway.

So, nah, it was never going to be a reasonable or interesting discussion.

But quickly: everyone certainly hasn't been using the same gear for years.

I actually can't recall the last time a DLC dropped that didn't bring something new to the table for PvE ...

Wrathstone: Tzogvin's Warband, Deadly Strike, Symphony of Blades
Murkmire: BRP weapons, Spell Strategist
Wolfhunter: Balorgh, Vykosa
Summerset: Relequen, Siroria, Olorime (+Jewelry Crafting which made significant changes in meta)
Dragon Bones: Jorvuld's, Zaan
CWC: Mechanical Acuity, Asylum weapons
HotR: Earthgore, Domihaus
Morrowind: War Machine, Master Architect
SotH: Velidreth, Chudan, Gossamer
Wrothgar: Briarheart, Maelstrom weapons
TG: Ebon, Alkosh, Worm, Hircine, Moondancer
IC: Spell Power Cure, Lord Warden, Kena, Agility, Willpower, Scathing Mage

Probably quite a bit of stuff that I'm missing, too. Apologies if some of those are incorrectly attributed, that's just off the top of my head.

Aside from the Relequen problem, which does significantly impact stam DD diversity in PvE, I just don't think OP's post really has a lot of merit. ZOS has introduced a lot of interesting and useful sets with every DLC that have made their way into the meta. Mag DPS has a fair amount of diversity, IMO. Depending on content/role, just on my magblade I run: Julianos, Mechanical Acuity, BSW, Mother's Sorrow, Spell Strategist, Siroria, Master Architect, Asylum Inferno, Maelstrom Inferno, Grothdarr, Zaan, Skoria, Iceheart, Balorgh, and even some non 5-piece (for vMA, using either 3 Moondancer or Willpower).

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idk

I think OP confuses diversity with what works best. They are probably used top games that had specific sets for classes forced diversity, that only benefited that class.

This has nothing to do with Zos' imagination. This has everything to do with the fact we have choices instead of restrictions. When that occurs there will be a small selection of sets that are BiS. It is a simple fact that OP seems to not grasp.

However, knowing many of the to players they do not always wear the same sets. I have known players to skip the monster set for willpower and be able to meet and beat top dps parses. Top players often find what works best for them, it is part of the reason they are top players.

Also, as pointed out, some sets are better on some fights and other sets on other fights. In the end it comes down to simple math for what works best in different situations. But there will always be a small selection of sets that perform best. Again, simple math.

Kulvar

Design bosses so the same gear is not the best on each one ?
Bring new goals than just "kill it and the faster you kill it, the less he can hit you" ?
If a boss was "survive for X minutes while killing things spawning constantly", damage would not be the only important metric.
A boss able to drain resources reward recovery.
A boss with invulnerability phases or phases where you can't hit it reward raw damage
A boss with "reflect X% damage" punish glass canon.
A boss with "reflect X% direct damage" promote DoT.
A boss with "absorb DoT to heal himself" promote direct damage.
A boss (or its adds) needing many snares, debuff, stun, purge, ... that tank/heal can't handle all by themselves would promote utility skills on DPS skill bars.
etc.

reprosal

I mean, relequen is the easiest free DPS set out there but to say it’s ‘needed’ is not right. Optimal for non-swap fights? Yes.

When in doubt, trust your 9 irons.

Joxer61

Kulvar wrote: »

Design bosses so the same gear is not the best on each one ?
Bring new goals than just "kill it and the faster you kill it, the less he can hit you" ?
If a boss was "survive for X minutes while killing things spawning constantly", damage would not be the only important metric.
A boss able to drain resources reward recovery.
A boss with invulnerability phases or phases where you can't hit it reward raw damage
A boss with "reflect X% damage" punish glass canon.
A boss with "reflect X% direct damage" promote DoT.
A boss with "absorb DoT to heal himself" promote direct damage.
A boss (or its adds) needing many snares, debuff, stun, purge, ... that tank/heal can't handle all by themselves would promote utility skills on DPS skill bars.
etc.

Yup, GW2 has that. Certain Bosses become or are immune to certain types of damage making class and team makeup something of a challenge. Probably about the only good thing about GW2 raids sadly. But I reckon it would be fun to have a Boss go immune to say fire damage for x amount of time, in fact it is!

klowdy1

The gear alcast uses on his stam builds has changed three or four times since I started using them in morrowind. He also has other setups to use when starting out that have changed a few times, and a handful of other sets that are very close to the posted builds. BiS isn't mandatory for most of the game.

ZOS_JesC

Greetings. We've closed this thread as it has derailed into personal insults and baiting comments. This is a reminder that posts need to adhere to our forum rules. Thank you for your understanding.